Debunking "Human Nature"

[Hexen]

I wonder what is the best way to debunk "Human Nature"? Do you think it's actually just a bourgeois excuse/self defense they use to justify their own greed and worse they project this view to the working classes as well or maybe that's the one of the strings/biopower of Capitalist society? Perhaps it's the same thing that a religious person uses when they kill/abuse somebody because "god told them so" or uses other cosmic reasons but if you tear all of that down and it is revealed what they really are...bunch of worthless sociopath/psychopath shits.

[RED DAVE]

I wonder what is the best way to debunk "Human Nature"? Do you think it's actually just a bourgeois excuse/self defense they use to justify their own greed and worse they project this view to the working classes as well or maybe that's the one of the strings/biopower of Capitalist society?It's bullshit. Human nature runs the gamut from the most loving acts to the nazis.

If a capitalist apologist says that capitalism is the historical realization of developing human nature, the response is to ask: why would you expect that the "development" of human nature will stop with capitalism?

RED DAVE

[fatboy]

The bourgeois definition of human behavior is everybody is greedy. But how do you define human behavior anyway? Are people who give to charity greedy. I think not. Human nature is a much to broad to define. And thus the argument is just a petty anti-communist attempt to keep communism down.

[Scary Monster]

I wonder what is the best way to debunk "Human Nature"? Do you think it's actually just a bourgeois excuse/self defense they use to justify their own greed and worse they project this view to the working classes as well or maybe that's the one of the strings/biopower of Capitalist society? Perhaps it's the same thing that a religious person uses when they kill/abuse somebody because "god told them so" or uses other cosmic reasons but if you tear all of that down and it is revealed what they really are...bunch of worthless sociopath/psychopath shits.

Yuup. The whole "human nature" thing is not a scientific fact. Rather, people just do what it takes to survive in a certain environment. Of course, Capitalism artificially creates scarcity of basic shit, which forces someone to work, steal or else starve and become homeless. Ive also thought of the human nature "argument" as just an excuse for the ultra-greedy behavior that capitalism promotes, which capitalism would not survive without. There are just as many altruistic people who value love, friendship, humanity, who devote their lives toward the the greater good and all that over money and material crap, as there are assholes who don't mind killing people for their personal gain. Peoples behavior arent that black-and-white, buut capitalism encourages selfish behavior.

[Hexen]

Sad fact is, alot of people in capitalist society seems to buy into this shit (major victory for the capitalists actually as one of the tactics for keeping themselves in power) which is one the major barriers I think needs to be questioned & combated before we can reach into socialism. Maybe because most people are simply products of their own society.

[Chambered Word]

It's a way of saying 'it's not my fault I'm a greedy fucking pig who steps on others for cash, it's what I was born to do!' which has similar validity to some hack defence lawyer's insanity plea.

[RadioRaheem84]

I figured the whole human nature argument stemmed from a secularization of the Christian doctrine of human nature. It's a leftover vestige from the whole 'divine right of kings' sort of thing. Human nature is fixed and therefore there must be a system in place that "channels" everyone's self interest. Supposedly capitalism is that system.

Like Red Dave pointed out, how do they figure it will stop there? And how do they know that human nature isn't more malleable than once thought? Self interest could mold into wanting to live a sustainable life. It's funny that a lot of Americans really believe this and think the worst of human nature, more so than anyone else in the developed world. I wonder if it has to do with us having a freer market than the social democratic countries which view human nature in a less evil light.

[Uncle Hank]

Human nature to me is just a gigantic cop-out. "This is the way it is and was and can never change", it's bullshit. I mean if I want to do the right thing in stead of what will benefit myself am I an aberration of nature?

[Die Neue Zeit]

I figured the whole human nature argument stemmed from a secularization of the Christian doctrine of human nature. It's a leftover vestige from the whole 'divine right of kings' sort of thing. Human nature is fixed and therefore there must be a system in place that "channels" everyone's self interest. Supposedly capitalism is that system.

Like Red Dave pointed out, how do they figure it will stop there? And how do they know that human nature isn't more malleable than once thought? Self interest could mold into wanting to live a sustainable life. It's funny that a lot of Americans really believe this and think the worst of human nature, more so than anyone else in the developed world. I wonder if it has to do with us having a freer market than the social democratic countries which view human nature in a less evil light.

Here's an interesting article:

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/content/view/full/86146


Here we find the process called the "race to the bottom" or downward spiral of competitive wage undercutting.

We clearly still live with the consequences of this counter-revolution in economic theory and today the form it takes is called neoliberalism.

It will take a revolution in the dominant thinking of society to put this theory into the dustbin of history.

And that revolution will take much patient explanation and argument with fellow workers as the character, painter and socialist Frank Owen did in the famous novel The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists written by Robert Tressell.

In the book, Tressell called the workers philanthropists because they unknowingly provided the source of the profits to the parasites that are the capitalists.

[Klaatu]

One of my students wants to "get into investment banking, so I can screw people out of their money..." (really makes me want to help this creep with his math problems..) The sad part is, I think he was actually serious. A budding capitalist he is, "screwing people out of their money."

I've observed that you can tell a lot about a person by how they think of /handle their money /posessions. In stark contrast to my capitalistic pig student, I've met a few people in my life who are giving and helpful, not wanting nor expecting a thing in return.

Such is "human nature" Anything from saints to scumbags...

[Dimentio]

I wonder what is the best way to debunk "Human Nature"? Do you think it's actually just a bourgeois excuse/self defense they use to justify their own greed and worse they project this view to the working classes as well or maybe that's the one of the strings/biopower of Capitalist society? Perhaps it's the same thing that a religious person uses when they kill/abuse somebody because "god told them so" or uses other cosmic reasons but if you tear all of that down and it is revealed what they really are...bunch of worthless sociopath/psychopath shits.

1. A lot of impulses are somewhat "natural", namely to beat the crap out of others, murder, rape and so on. That doesn't make them desirable and we have installed rules and regulations to stop such behaviour.

2. Human nature is affected by the environment. Change the environment and you change human behaviour. Just a few centuries ago, your ancestors saw it as natural to enjoy females being burned against stakes, public animal torture and executions of thieves. They were not sick, they were just adjusted to a society more barbaric than the current.

[Klaatu]

They were not sick, they were just adjusted to a society more barbaric than the current.

But then, there are barbaric cultures in existence today, and we've gone to war to stop them.
Cultures where they throw acid in girls' faces, cut off people's heads, and explode themselves, all in the "name of god"

Some things never change.

[Robespierre2.0]

But then, there are barbaric cultures in existence today, and we've gone to war to stop them.
Cultures where they throw acid in girls' faces, cut off people's heads, and explode themselves, all in the "name of god"

Some things never change.

The Islamic world is not any more barbaric than the Judeo-Christian west.
Having this attitude that they are 'less civilized' than the west means throwing your lot in with the other pseudo-leftists who support Israel and U.S. imperialism.
Oh yeah, it's also racist.

They have beheadings, sexual conservatism, and suicide bombing.
We have institutionalized racism, a culture that treats women like commodities, and smart bombs. What's the difference?
Cutting off somebody's head doesn't make them any more dead than dropping a bomb on them, so how is it any more savage?
When you see racist, sexist shit on TV like Carlos Mencia and 'The Man Show', how can you see that as any worse than women being forced to dress modestly?
Both are wrong, but our obligation should be to fix things in our corner of the world, not to go overseas and force them at gunpoint to change.

[Robespierre2.0]

As for human nature-
It's human nature to breathe, eat, sleep, excrete, and reproduce. Everything else is dependent upon the environment. Consequently, a system that rewards selfish behavior will create a selfish populace.
As socialists, we seek to create a system that gives incentives to help out your fellow man. Humans are naturally self-interested, but those who grow up in a socialist system learn that working with others for the benefit of all does more to further their individual interests than having the cutthroat 'every-man-for-himself' mentality prevalent in capitalism.

[punisa]

Human nature is a complex system and it needs a lot of study to even grasp on a small section of it.
Luckily there are many good researches conducted beyond the dogmatic bourgeois (Erich Fromm made some great stuff).

But tossing away facts about human nature and labeling everything as a "bourgeois conspiracy" is immature and potentially dangerous if one has some real revolutionary ambitions.

It's exactly the human nature on which the socialist struggle should be greatly built on.
We should be discussing human nature in context of using it towards our mutual goal - creating a population of workers which are ruled by equality.

[RadioRaheem84]

One of my students wants to "get into investment banking, so I can screw people out of their money..." (really makes me want to help this creep with his math problems..) The sad part is, I think he was actually serious. A budding capitalist he is, "screwing people out of their money."

I've observed that you can tell a lot about a person by how they think of /handle their money /posessions. In stark contrast to my capitalistic pig student, I've met a few people in my life who are giving and helpful, not wanting nor expecting a thing in return.

Such is "human nature" Anything from saints to scumbags...

That's still the dream for most undergrads? To get into investment banking? Back when I was an undergrad (2 years ago), it was become a banker or bust, or at least a management consultant. I did one internship at an investment firm and I was done. I knew it was glorified slave work. But at the time I thought I was joining a venture that would create wealth not extract it. If the students actually knows that he's extracting wealth and not creating any real value then he is one messed up kid.

[Uncle Hank]

Human nature to me is just a gigantic cop-out. "This is the way it is and was and can never change", it's bullshit. I mean if I want to do the right thing in stead of what will benefit myself am I an aberration of nature?


Human nature is a complex system and it needs a lot of study to even grasp on a small section of it.
Luckily there are many good researches conducted beyond the dogmatic bourgeois (Erich Fromm made some great stuff).

But tossing away facts about human nature and labeling everything as a "bourgeois conspiracy" is immature and potentially dangerous if one has some real revolutionary ambitions.

It's exactly the human nature on which the socialist struggle should be greatly built on.
We should be discussing human nature in context of using it towards our mutual goal - creating a population of workers which are ruled by equality.
I dunno if this comment is semi-directed at me, but what I was disregarding about human nature is when people say it is human nature to shit on everyone else. I said what I said the way I said it only for brevity's sake. I just wanted to make it clear that I don't think human nature is all some construct made to oppress the masses.

[Klaatu]

The Islamic world is not any more barbaric than the Judeo-Christian west.


Actually, I did not specifically say "Islam." I said "cultures." I meant the Taliban, for example, which is a culture in and of itself, but does not represent mainstream Islam. That is to say, Taliban is to Islam, as Ku Klux Klan is to Christianity. Both are sadistic, evil (I should have said) subcultures... They do exist. There are also Satanic (sub)cultures, which cut off people's heads, in dark basements of America. It happens. :crying:

[punisa]

I dunno if this comment is semi-directed at me

Nope, sorry. It wasn't :lol:
I sort of just glanced at all posts and gave my opinion :)

[Uppercut]

It's in question whether human nature exists at all. Tibetan Buddhists don't have the same "nature" as Americans, so it's likely human nature is determined by one's upbrining and the values their parents instill, along with their material surroundings and the conditions of their enviroment.

A person's nature is completely psychological and artificial, based on their perception of the world. Self-contemplation and criticism are instruments which one may use to alter their "nature". Most people argue that humans are greedy by nature, but I don't accept that. Your height of consciousness and level of worldly understanding determines how you outwordly act towards other beings, as well.

So in all, I'd say your consciousness is determined by:
a) Your parents' values/upbringing
b) The conditions of your material enviroment and your interaction with it.
c) Your level of insight and understanding of the outside world.

And all these factors are malleable and interchangable. "Human nature" is very flexible.

[Tatarin]

Or shorten it down in one sence: if the capitalist type of "human nature" is true, then what the hell are people here, on this board? Obviously, some do care - in fact, a great lot of people do care.

A recent book that was released, called The Spirit Level (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spirit_Level:_Why_More_Equal_Societies_Almost_ Always_Do_Better), and the researchers who have studied societies for 30 years have come to the conclusion that societies who are more equal are also the ones with a thriving population. I haven't managed to read it yet, but I guess it is worth a look. Our psychology makes us social animals that need each other as a society in order to live, to confirm that we exist, and to reproduce too.

[ArrowLance]

The bourgeois definition of human behavior is everybody is greedy. But how do you define human behavior anyway? Are people who give to charity greedy. I think not. Human nature is a much to broad to define. And thus the argument is just a petty anti-communist attempt to keep communism down.

Lots of bourgeoisie donate to charities, and yet they are greedy. Watch it, that argument would get you in trouble fast! Just think of Glenn Beck!

[newsocialism]

Human nature is complex and some of the rules of it can change person to person. I think multiple characteristics are interacting each other. Basic ones are surviving, fighting, revenge, love, hate, sex, multiplying, gaining, cooperating...etc Different environmental factors, different life experiences can have an influence on one's or a population's behaviors. Humans also do not stop there. They also develop ethics, culture..etc. I don't think we can debunk it. Let's say, there is a human nature, but it can be complex.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Human Nature is a Concept, and it would prove pointless to try to Debunk it.

Human Nature by definition does exist. There are a set of feelings and thoughts that all "normal" humans share.

What you should be trying to debunk is the Human's are Greedy Bullshit. That's not Human Nature. Human Nature is something you are born with not something that society can put upon you.

How often do you see a baby stealing bottles from other babies.

The only reason that kids want anything seems to be because other kids have it. Take this aspect away, and what is the point?

You have to make people understand that there will be corrupt people. It's the way of things, It's not human nature it's just bound to happen. "Some" People become greedy. Human Nature is something most humans share not a few fucked up ones.

I'm going to use a quote from someone who most people here probably dislike

"The tree of Liberty needs to be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

It holds true, there will be revolution. If things become corrupt fix them, it's not a difficult concept.

Once the world is educated it will be much harder to take control, and even if someone happened to they would spark revolution.

This is a big world with people all over it. If Human Nature held true wouldn't every single one of us be fighting for positions of power?

[Forward Union]

I wonder what is the best way to debunk "Human Nature"? Do you think it's actually just a bourgeois excuse/self defense they use to justify their own greed and worse they project this view to the working classes as well or maybe that's the one of the strings/biopower of Capitalist society? Perhaps it's the same thing that a religious person uses when they kill/abuse somebody because "god told them so" or uses other cosmic reasons but if you tear all of that down and it is revealed what they really are...bunch of worthless sociopath/psychopath shits.

Humans ARE self interested. That is a scientific fact. However, Mutual aid is also a human characteristic, and they are not in competition. In order for myself to survive, and to get the most stuff, I need to organise collectively with my associates and take on natures challenges.

Given that humans want whats best for themselves, that somewhat makes capitalisms position indefensible. If 10% of the population own 80% of the wealth, doesn't it make sense for the 90% to expropriate the 10%s wealth?

[Klaatu]

Lots of bourgeoisie donate to charities, and yet they are greedy.

There are types people who give to charity:

(A) because they have foolish pride ("Look at me - I'm charitable!")
(B) out of a sense of duty (as an investment on a return reward in heaven?)
(C) they get an honest, good feeling out of helping others

I think only "C" is respectable ("B" is OK, but less saintly)
"A" is to boost oneself as some kind of "good person image" (fake is more like it)

[Tatarin]

There are types people who give to charity:

(A) because they have foolish pride ("Look at me - I'm charitable!")
(B) out of a sense of duty (as an investment on a return reward in heaven?)
(C) they get an honest, good feeling out of helping others

I think only "C" is respectable ("B" is OK, but less saintly)
"A" is to boost oneself as some kind of "good person image" (fake is more like it)

Then there are people who do give to charity because they really think it works, and I believe many do it not because they simply feel good or have some sort of pride, but sees it as their "duty" to help others when they can. Sort of helping a wounded person on the street.

Secondly, I don't really believe in "the" self-centeredness that seems to be prevalent. How many here have a relationship? And how many here have relationships that are purely based on selfish gains? How much have you spent on friendship and passionate relationships that, for lack of words, "came to nothing" (except a lot of alcohol, intimate nights, and stuff)?

[Devrim]

But then, there are barbaric cultures in existence today, and we've gone to war to stop them.
Cultures where they throw acid in girls' faces, cut off people's heads, and explode themselves, all in the "name of god"

Some things never change.

But then, there are barbaric cultures in existence today.
Cultures where they strap people into chairs and electrocute them to death, and they send air-planes all around the world to drop bombs and murder children, all in the "name of democracy."

Some things never change.

Devrim

[Klaatu]

Secondly, I don't really believe in "the" self-centeredness that seems to be prevalent. How many here have a relationship? And how many here have relationships that are purely based on selfish gains? How much have you spent on friendship and passionate relationships that, for lack of words, "came to nothing" (except a lot of alcohol, intimate nights, and stuff)?

Funny you should mention relationships with others... Since I've freed myself from the chains of conservatism and capitalism, (that is to say, greed and arrogance) I have found that, mysteriously, my interpersonal relationships improving greatly. Glad you brought this up.:thumbup1:

[Devrim]

Human Nature is a Concept, and it would prove pointless to try to Debunk it.

Human Nature by definition does exist. There are a set of feelings and thoughts that all "normal" humans share.

What you should be trying to debunk is the Human's are Greedy Bullshit. That's not Human Nature. Human Nature is something you are born with not something that society can put upon you.


I totally agree. There are many things that are parts of human nature. Most of them are so banal we don't think about them, but for example all humans smile to express friendliness. Chimpanzees do it to show aggression.

There is a human nature. That does not mean that to strive to make money is a part of human nature as money is something that humans existed without for the vast majority of their evolutionary history.

Devrim

[Klaatu]

But then, there are barbaric cultures in existence today.
Cultures where they strap people into chairs and electrocute them to death, and they send air-planes all around the world to drop bombs and murder children, all in the "name of democracy."

Some things never change.

Devrim

You're right. But I did not say that I agreed with those wars, though, if that's what you are implying. Two wrongs never make a right.

[ArrowLance]

There are types people who give to charity:

(A) because they have foolish pride ("Look at me - I'm charitable!")
(B) out of a sense of duty (as an investment on a return reward in heaven?)
(C) they get an honest, good feeling out of helping others

I think only "C" is respectable ("B" is OK, but less saintly)
"A" is to boost oneself as some kind of "good person image" (fake is more like it)

That's just bogus. Option C isn't respectable at all. If the only reason you would donate money is to 'feel good' you don't really care all that much about actually helping them, you just know doing it makes you a 'good person.'

In counter, out of the three options, option B is the most respectable. We do have a duty to our fellow workers and those less fortunate than ourselves.

[Devrim]

But then, there are barbaric cultures in existence today, and we've gone to war to stop them.
Cultures where they throw acid in girls' faces, cut off people's heads, and explode themselves, all in the "name of god"

Some things never change.

But then, there are barbaric cultures in existence today.
Cultures where they strap people into chairs and electrocute them to death, and they send air-planes all around the world to drop bombs and murder children, all in the "name of democracy."

Some things never change.
You're right. But I did not say that I agreed with those wars, though, if that's what you are implying. Two wrongs never make a right.

Just to clarify on some of those barbaric things. The only state in the Middle East, which practises beheading is Saudi Arabia. They haven't done it since February 2007 when they executed 4 people. Texas, which has a similar, but lower population to Saudi Arabia has executed 67 people since then. Of course, that doesn't mean that it is OK for the Saudi to execute people. It is still barbaric. I think the comparison is very revealing though.

In addition the US certainly did not go to war to stop this practice. Saudi Arabia, the only state in the Middle East which beheads people, is one of Americas strongest regional allies.

The countries in the Islamic world which suffer from acid attacks on women are Afghanistan, India, Bangladesh and Pakistan. Incidentally, these attacks are illegal in these countries, and are punished by severe penalties unlike strapping people to a chair for 22 seconds, which is then repeated up to three more times, which is actually organised by the state.

Incidentally, of the countries on that list, the US has only gone to war with one of them, and is a historic ally of another, Pakistan.

Devrim

[Klaatu]

One thing they taught us in (modern) history class: George Bush (as governor of Texas) has presided over more executions than any other free-world leader ever (no wonder he kisses the Saudi leader; they think alike) (smooch smooch)

[bcbm]

unlike strapping people to a chair for 22 seconds, which is then repeated up to three more times, which is actually organised by the state.

lethal injection is more common than the electric chair, which is only a secondary option in the few states it is legal in today.

[RadioRaheem84]

One thing they taught us in (modern) history class: George Bush (as governor of Texas) has presided over more executions than any other free-world leader ever (no wonder he kisses the Saudi leader; they think alike) (smooch smooch)

We are just more "civil" in our brutality.

[Scary Monster]

Some things never change.

Just to clarify on some of those barbaric things. The only state in the Middle East, which practises beheading is Saudi Arabia. They haven't done it since February 2007 when they executed 4 people. Texas, which has a similar, but lower population to Saudi Arabia has executed 67 people since then. Of course, that doesn't mean that it is OK for the Saudi to execute people. It is still barbaric. I think the comparison is very revealing though.

In addition the US certainly did not go to war to stop this practice. Saudi Arabia, the only state in the Middle East which beheads people, is one of Americas strongest regional allies.

The countries in the Islamic world which suffer from acid attacks on women are Afghanistan, India, Bangladesh and Pakistan. Incidentally, these attacks are illegal in these countries, and are punished by severe penalties unlike strapping people to a chair for 22 seconds, which is then repeated up to three more times, which is actually organised by the state.

Incidentally, of the countries on that list, the US has only gone to war with one of them, and is a historic ally of another, Pakistan.

Devrim

Holy shit i never knew any of this, besides the fact that we are strong allies with Saudi Arabia. I swear, people here in the US are never told any of this. All we are told is that "those damn arabs even throw acid in women's faces!" or something to that effect. This is why i say on this site all the time that the US just needs to be educated and we need something that can combat the distortions of the world coming from our media (both in news and entertainment).

[Devrim]

Holy shit i never knew any of this, besides the fact that we are strong allies with Saudi Arabia. I swear, people here in the US are never told any of this. All we are told is that "those damn arabs even throw acid in women's faces!" or something to that effect. This is why i say on this site all the time that the US just needs to be educated and we need something that can combat the distortions of the world coming from our media (both in news and entertainment).

Yes, I think the US media pays very little attention to detail in international affairs. One could also comment on the fact that none of Afghanistan, India, Bangladesh and Pakistan are Arab countries, and I have never heard of acid being thrown in an Arab country.

Devrim

[The Red Next Door]

I think that when it come to the so called human nature of greed, It comes in different forms beside money wise, like the greed to have power, the greed to have time with friends(that my personal greed) greed for food and etc.

[rednordman]

I really do believe that when people use the human nature arguement to defend captialism, it really is just thier own way of saying, 'do as we say'. Or to put it another way, to say that human beings are meant to obay capitalism and nothing else, as capitalism is based upon human behavior. Its really is a ridiculous arguement because for one, capitalism hasnt been around for ever, and two, it hasnt got very much to do with human nature.

For years capitalism have used the arguement to go against collectivist ideologies, to support individualism (well, their idea of individualism).

Thing is, isnt it also human nature to express compasion and solidarity to others who are suffering the same misery as yourselves?

I see this alot a work. Everyone hates it and it supplies people with something to complain about. This in itself creates unity, but it in general, anti-capitalist.

So my point is this: What is capitalisms right to claim itself as the ideology of 'human nature' when it is equally human nature to rally against it collectively?

Sure its easy to moan about things when you are getting restricted (state, political correctness, etc) and you are very successfull. Of course, you are going to say that anything stopping you from attaining your full potential is going against human nature.

The thing is, if you where to use this HN arguement all the time to keep on following your own personal gains, than wouldnt it also be HN for your exploited workers/competitors to group together in solidarity and rebel? Then it would hardly be an arguement for capitalism/individualism. So why do people use the HN arguement to solely defend capitalism/individualism?

[Hexen]

I think selfish greed/individualism is not actually "human nature" but more like a severe mental disorder produced by capitalist society that needs supervised medical treatment...

Infact I even think that capitalism is a symptom for kleptomania...