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View Full Version : Remember Ta Thu Thau, Heroic Proletarian Fighter, Murdered by Vietnamese Stalinism



Kléber
30th January 2010, 18:52
http://www.wikiwak.com/image/Ta+Thu+Thau.jpg

Ta Thu Thau (1906-1945) was perhaps the most outstanding figure in the history of the Fourth International. Born into a poor family of the agricultural proletariat, he was a brilliant and hard-working student, always a political agitator, first a nationalist and then a socialist. He led the Trotskyist "La Lutte" group to sweep the city council elections in Saigon in 1939 with an 80% victory, although the French colonial authorities did not let them take their seats. The Trotskyists formed peasant-worker militias to fight against the French colonial regime in 1945 but they were almost physically wiped out by colonial repression, which succeeded not on its own merits but because the Indochinese Communist Party - who had been the Trotskyists' allies once and knew their identities - helped the French capture and execute them (during WWII all Communists in Allied imperialist colonies were ordered to support their imperialist governments). Ta Thu Thau himself was assassinated in northern Vietnam on the orders of Ho Chi Minh after meeting with him to discuss an alliance, despite having been guaranteed safe passage. Although their organizations were smashed, Trotskyist Viet Minh fighters would continue to be purged into the 1950's, although there are no cases of treason by Trotskyists against the ICP/VM/VC.

When the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact occurred the French authorities rounded up the Vietnamese Stalinists as a potential fifth column for an Axis invasion. The Trotskyists defended the Stalinists and were thrown in jail also. Partly because of their principled defense of the Stalinists, the Trotskyists were politically marginalized throughout WWII.

When the French returned in 1945 the Trotskyists organized a workers' council in Saigon and tried to fight back. The ICP, following Soviet foreign policy, officially had to support the French, and took an abstentionist "run for the hills" line, advocating everyone to form pro-ICP militias in the countryside but do nothing to stop the French troops. The ICP-affiliated militias in the south were losing popularity since the Trotskyists called for combat against France, so they surprised the main Saigon workers' militia by inviting their leaders to a joint planning meeting, then betraying and shooting them. Some ICP-affiliated militias refused to fight against Trotskyists, or even engaged in combat against French troops against the ICP's own line. However, the remaining Trotskyist units were surrounded and destroyed by French and ICP-affiliated forces. The Saigon workers' council itself was destroyed when a meeting of the proletarian leaders was ambushed by French police aided by ICP cadres. The council decided to surrender, despite possessing arms, and the leaders were executed; according to survivors the Trotskyists in ICP custody were sometimes tortured to death like traitors. Surrendering the council was, in my opinion, the greatest mistake of Vietnamese Trotskyism, but perhaps it shows that they had lost a lot of support, or the building had been surrounded in such a manner that defense was impossible. In any event, sufficient provision was not made for betrayal to the French authorities by the ICP.

The Russian Revolution equivalent of the ICP's treason would have been if, during the Kornilov Affair, while the Bolsheviks mustered to defend Petrograd, the S-R's had assassinated Lenin and kidnapped and murdered the Central Committee. I'm not saying the Vietnamese Trotskyists were perfect, but before anyone says "they would have failed anyway," consider how badly such a stab in the back would have damaged the Bolsheviks.

The Vietnamese Trotskyists made some fundamental mistakes. But these were tactical mistakes and not fundamental betrayals of the proletariat like the ICP's support for the French occupation. In my opinion (and obviously, I'm aided by hindsight here since they got destroyed) they didn't take security seriously enough. They put too much faith in the legality of the colonial system, and they underestimated the capacity of their old allies, whom they mistakenly thought of as "Mensheviks," to betray and murder them.

Let us learn from the lessons, mistakes, heroism and martial spirit of Ta Thu Thau and his comrades.

http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/revhist/backiss/vol3/no2/thau.html

http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/revhist/backiss/vol3/no2/onviet.html

http://www.revolutionaryhistory.co.uk/rh0302/ttt.html

http://www.revolutionaryhistory.co.uk/fourthint

I think it should come as no surprise that a "Socialist Republic of Vietnam" established by the sort of opportunist traitors who could commit such crimes, would rapidly degenerate into a brothel for foreign capital.


EDIT: I admit that I have not read the first-hand accounts of Vietnamese Trotskyists to such an extent as to totally outline the history of the Vietnamese workers' movement here. Very little of the relevant material exists in English; I don't read French or Vietnamese. What I say here is all based off second-hand accounts and the handful of primary or semi-primary materials online. Contributions and corrections from anyone who has read more first hand material about the subject would be much appreciated.

khad
30th January 2010, 20:01
I've never read more sectarian fuckwittery in my life. Produce some geostrategic context for diplomacy in Southeast Asia during the period of 1930s and 40s, or this is just another example of a sectarian legend without any sources verifiable outside of the tendency that produced it.

Kléber
30th January 2010, 20:46
The interests of the Vietnamese workers may indeed have conflicted with the diplomatic maneuvers of the USSR.

Long live those workers who defied French imperialism, the geostrategic interests of the Moscow revisionists and the opportunism of their Vietnamese lackeys be damned!

RED DAVE
30th January 2010, 21:33
I've never read more sectarian fuckwittery in my life. Produce some geostrategic context for diplomacy in Southeast Asia during the period of 1930s and 40s, or this is just another example of a sectarian legend without any sources verifiable outside of the tendency that produced it.It's time for you to produce sources in support of your political cursing or quietly go away.

RED DAVE

Bright Banana Beard
30th January 2010, 21:38
Long live those workers who defied French imperialism, the geostrategic interests of the Moscow revisionists and the opportunism of their Vietnamese lackeys be damned!

Slogan! Slogan slogan! Slogan slogan slogan!

RED DAVE
30th January 2010, 22:15
Long live those workers who defied French imperialism, the geostrategic interests of the Moscow revisionists and the opportunism of their Vietnamese lackeys be damned!
Slogan! Slogan slogan! Slogan slogan slogan!Uh, BR, your post doesn't exactly constitute a refutation. You ain't the only one with the mike around here.

:D

How about some facts/links?

RED DAVE

khad
30th January 2010, 22:50
Uh, BR, your post doesn't exactly constitute a refutation. You ain't the only one with the mike around here.

:D

How about some facts/links?

RED DAVE
The fact is, according to the peer-reviewed book Radicalism and the Origins of the Vietnamese Revolution by Hue-Tam Ho Tai, the Vietnamese Trotskyists were dominated by southerners, less communitarian in outlook, and were organizationally "no match" for the Viet Minh. Now here you people are citing a bunch of horrendously biased sectarian sources in an attempt to convince people that they were the true vanguard of the revolution. Forgive anyone with two brain cells for being skeptical.


The interests of the Vietnamese workers may indeed have conflicted with the diplomatic maneuvers of the USSR.

Long live those workers who defied French imperialism, the geostrategic interests of the Moscow revisionists and the opportunism of their Vietnamese lackeys be damned!
People who fail diplomatic history lack credibility.
http://www.revleft.com/vb/ussr-imperialisti-t126324/index.html

All that tripe about Stalin's "crimes," but not one word about Poland's pact with the Nazis and their active participation in carving up Central Europe for Hitler.

RED DAVE
30th January 2010, 23:39
The fact is, according to the peer-reviewed book Radicalism and the Origins of the Vietnamese Revolution by Hue-Tam Ho Tai, the Vietnamese Trotskyists were dominated by southerners, less communitarian in outlook, and were organizationally "no match" for the Viet Minh.No one is denying that the Viet Communists were stronger than the Vietnamese Trotskyists. What you are skipping out on the fact that the Communists (a) collaborated with the French and (b) participated in massacres of the Trotskyists.


Now here you peopleYou people? That's a hell of way to address comrades, Comrade! We are talking about a terrible historical event which you haven't refuted.


are citing a bunch of horrendously biased sectarian sources in an attempt to convince people that they were the true vanguard of the revolution. Forgive anyone with two brain cells for being skeptical.And forgive us for thinking that the history of stalinism is immaculate.

But all this will be worked out concretely. As the working class and oppressed peoples begin to move again around the world, we'll see what kind of leadership stalinists have to offer. Hopefully, you will do better than last time round and give up killing off comrades.

RED DAVE

khad
31st January 2010, 00:14
You people? That's a hell of way to address comrades, Comrade! We are talking about a terrible historical event which you haven't refuted.
Yes, you people. You haven't offered any proof outside of sectarian garbage.


And forgive us for thinking that the history of stalinism is immaculate.
And the Trots love to talk like their shit don't stink.

rednordman
31st January 2010, 00:49
And the Trots love to talk like their shit don't stink.This is a very fair statement to make. Give me any Trotskyist who will self critisize themselves. This is why I would have loved to have seen a Trotskyist revolution. At least then we could make proper assumptions, instead of taxing 'what if' arguments.

RED DAVE
31st January 2010, 01:05
Let me say as an exit from this thread and sound a note that I'm going to continue on for a long time:

The struggle between stalinists and trotskyists is real, and this is an example of it: past and present. And, now as in the past, the truth will come out in the class struggle and the struggle of oppressed peoples. While these arguments about history have their place, the truth will come out, as to who is capable of leading the working class, and who is full of shit, as the conflict goes on.

If the stalinists are really the strong, selfless leaders of the working class, and the trots are a bunch of wreckers, the truth will come out in the struggle.

If the trots are really part of the future leadership of the working class and the stalinists are really a bunch of thuggish class collaborationists, the truth will come out in the struggle.

RED DAVE

The Ben G
31st January 2010, 01:33
And the Trots love to talk like their shit don't stink.

And the stalinists (or Maoists) like to talk that their mess dont sink either.

khad
31st January 2010, 02:14
And the stalinists (or Maoists) like to talk that their mess dont sink either.
Try again, you failures. I've criticized Stalin repeatedly for his betrayal of East Turkestan's independence here in revleft, because I've seen the independently verifiable facts which all point to the indefensible actions of the Soviet and Chinese leadership.

The burden is on you people to provide facts that aren't buried under a dozen layers of sloganeering sectarian garbage.

Before revleft, I've never been pegged as a Stalinist, and I have made it pretty clear to people that I am anti-Maoist (in theory but perhaps not as much in practice), so your inisinuations don't mean a damn thing. But such is the fuckwittery of you sectarians on revleft.

Kléber
31st January 2010, 03:02
People who fail diplomatic history lack credibility.
http://www.revleft.com/vb/ussr-imper...324/index.html (http://www.revleft.com/vb/ussr-imperialisti-t126324/index.html)

All that tripe about Stalin's "crimes," but not one word about Poland's pact with the Nazis and their active participation in carving up Central Europe for Hitler.
If you wanted to stuff words in my mouth, and pretend that anyone who criticizes Molotov-Ribbentrop must be an agent of the Polish officer caste, you could have done it in that thread.

Can we please stop swearing at each other here. The last 4 words of the thread title were a bit provocative, but I was hoping to provoke more sourced info to appear from the other side; instead most of the replies are about as meaningful as the sound of hungry cats screeching and kitchenware crashing on the ground. Whether or not you like my writing style, the Vietnamese Trotskyists were violently suppressed. If the Stalinists have info that justifies the killings, let them produce this. Otherwise please don't insult the memory of these comrades by suggesting they never existed.

gorillafuck
31st January 2010, 03:08
These sources seem unreliable to me, they're just essays written by Trotskyists. Is there any better info about the ICP working with French colonialists or information indicating that they would have done this even if it's not direct information about it? I've never heard that before and I sincerely doubt that it's true.

Kléber
31st January 2010, 03:16
Sorry, I thought it was common knowledge that Communists operating in British and French colonies were ordered by the Comintern to collaborate with the colonial authorities after Operation Barbarossa changed the official character of WWII from an imperialist war to a "people's war" in defense of the USSR. The same was true in the imperialist countries themselves where the Communists became flag-waving militarists and opposed strikes until 1945. In fact, it was this policy of slavish support for the Allies that called into question the very need for the Comintern itself and led to its dissolution in 1943. The situation was even trickier in French colonies, due to the 1935 alliance between imperialist France and the USSR. I would also like to learn more about this subject, but the Communist Parties themselves are reticent about it in their official histories (I wonder why?), so I'm sorry that I have to resort to heretical Trotskyist sources, it's simply because they're the only ones who have cared to research/translate the relevant material. If non-partisan researchers covered this same material in similar detail, I would obviously prefer the less biased research. In the meantime hopefully this thread will mellow out and we can get a dialectical process and arrive at a more balanced picture of Vietnamese Trotskyism.

gorillafuck
31st January 2010, 04:00
Sorry, I thought it was common knowledge that Communists operating in British and French colonies were ordered by the Comintern to collaborate with the colonial authorities after Operation Barbarossa changed the official character of WWII from an imperialist war to a "people's war" in defense of the USSR.
Oh, I was unaware that they were ordered this. Link?

The Red Next Door
31st January 2010, 07:26
I've never read more sectarian fuckwittery in my life. Produce some geostrategic context for diplomacy in Southeast Asia during the period of 1930s and 40s, or this is just another example of a sectarian legend without any sources verifiable outside of the tendency that produced it.
You have your nerve. all of you stalinists on here who thank this post.

Jolly Red Giant
31st January 2010, 13:41
You have your nerve. all of you stalinists on here who thank this post.
Are you really surprised?

Of course the fact that Stalinism has utter failed conveniently escapes them.

Bright Banana Beard
31st January 2010, 23:42
You have your nerve. all of you Stalinists on here who thank this post.
I thanked your post, you are now a Stalinist.

The Red Next Door
1st February 2010, 21:53
I thanked your post, you are now a Stalinist.
I thank your post, now you are a anarcho communist.

Wakizashi the Bolshevik
3rd February 2010, 11:32
Oh God, not another sectarian trotskyist post about how the "evil Stalinists" secretly serve the capital...
I'm getting so tired of this...

Wakizashi the Bolshevik
3rd February 2010, 11:33
Are you really surprised?

Of course the fact that Stalinism has utter failed conveniently escapes them.
The fact that Stalinism doesn't even exist escapes you and your Trotskyist friends.

The Ungovernable Farce
3rd February 2010, 18:31
Oh God, not another sectarian trotskyist post about how the "evil Stalinists" secretly serve the capital...
I'm getting so tired of this...
TBF, if you find people being sectarian on the internet tiresome, imagine how terribly annoying it must've been for the Vietnamese trots to get murdered by your comrades. That must've been, like, a total drag.