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Q
28th January 2010, 10:12
Source (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/space/os-no-moon-for-nasa-20100126,0,2770904.story):

Obama aims to ax moon mission

NASA's (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/science-technology/space-programs/nasa-ORGOV000098.topic) plans to return astronauts to the moon are dead. So are the rockets being designed to take them there — that is, if President Barack Obama (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/politics/government/barack-obama-PEPLT007408.topic) gets his way.

When the White House (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/politics/government/executive-branch/white-house-PLCUL000110.topic) releases his budget proposal Monday, there will be no money for the Constellation program (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/science-technology/space-programs/constellation-program-ORGOV0000166.topic) that was supposed to return humans to the moon by 2020. The troubled and expensive Ares I rocket that was to replace the space shuttle to ferry humans to space will be gone, along with money for its bigger brother, the Ares V (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/science-technology/space-programs/ares-v-launch-EVHST0000219.topic) cargo rocket that was to launch the fuel and supplies needed to take humans back to the moon.

There will be no lunar landers, no moon bases, no Constellation program at all.

In their place, according to White House insiders, agency officials, industry executives and congressional sources familiar with Obama's long-awaited plans for the space agency, NASA will look at developing a new "heavy-lift" rocket that one day will take humans and robots to explore beyond low Earth orbit. But that day will be years — possibly even a decade or more — away.

In the meantime, the White House will direct NASA to concentrate on Earth-science projects — principally, researching and monitoring climate change — and on a new technology research and development program that will one day make human exploration of asteroids and the inner solar system possible.

There will also be funding for private companies (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/economy-business-finance/companies-corporations-04016046.topic) to develop capsules and rockets that can be used as space taxis to take astronauts on fixed-price contracts to and from the International Space Station — a major change in the way the agency has done business for the past 50 years.

The White House budget request, which is certain to meet fierce resistance in Congress, scraps the Bush administration's Vision for Space Exploration and signals a major reorientation of NASA, especially in the area of human spaceflight.

"We certainly don't need to go back to the moon," said one administration official.

Everyone interviewed for this article spoke on condition of anonymity, either because they are not authorized to talk for the White House or because they fear for their jobs. All are familiar with the broad sweep of Obama's budget proposal, but none would talk about specific numbers because these are being tightly held by the White House until the release of the budget.

But senior administration officials say the spending freeze for some federal agencies is not going to apply to the space agency in this budget proposal. Officials said NASA was expected to see some "modest" increase in its current $18.7 billion annual budget — possibly $200 million to $300 million more but far less than the $1 billion boost agency officials had hoped for.

They also said that the White House plans to extend the life of the International Space Station to at least 2020. One insider said there would be an "attractive sum" of money — to be spent over several years — for private companies to make rockets to carry astronauts there.

But Obama's budget freeze is likely to hamstring NASA in coming years as the spending clampdown will eventually shackle the agency and its ambitions. And this year's funding request to develop both commercial rockets and a new NASA spaceship will be less than what was recommended by a White House panel of experts last year.

That panel, led by former Lockheed Martin CEO Norm Augustine, concluded that to have a "viable" human space-exploration program, NASA needed a $3 billion annual budget hike, and that it would take as much as $5 billion distributed over five years to develop commercial rockets that could carry astronauts safely to and from the space station.

Last year, lawmakers prohibited NASA from canceling any Constellation programs and starting new ones in their place unless the cuts were approved by Congress. The provision sends a "direct message that the Congress believes Constellation is, and should remain, the future of America's human space flight program," wrote U.S. Sen. Richard Shelby (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/politics/richard-shelby-PEPLT005988.topic), R-Ala., last month.

Nevertheless, NASA contractors have been quietly planning on the end of Ares I, which is years behind schedule and millions of dollars over budget. NASA has already spent more than $3 billion on Ares I and more than $5 billion on the rest of Constellation.

In recent days, NASA has been soliciting concepts for a new heavy-lift rocket from major contractors, including Boeing Co. (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/economy-business-finance/manufacturing-engineering/aerospace-manufacturing/boeing-co.-ORCRP017215.topic), Lockheed Martin Corp. (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/economy-business-finance/lockheed-martin-corporation-ORCRP009161.topic) and Pratt & Whitney. Last week, a group of moonlighting NASA engineers and rocket hobbyists proposed variations on old agency designs that use the shuttle's main engines and fuel tank to launch a capsule into space. According to officials and industry executives familiar with the presentations, some of the contractor designs are very similar to the one pressed by the hobbyists.

Officially, companies such as Boeing still support Constellation and its millions of dollars of contracts. Some believe that in a battle with Congress, Ares may survive.

"I would not say Ares is dead yet," said an executive with one major NASA contractor. "It's probably more accurate to say it's on life support. We have to wait to see how the coming battle ends."

Few doubt that a fight is looming. In order to finance new science and technology programs and find money for commercial rockets, Obama will be killing off programs that have created jobs in some powerful constituencies, including the Marshall Space Flight Center in Shelby's Alabama. But the White House is said to be ready for a fight.

The end of the shuttle program this year is already going to slash 7,000 jobs at Kennedy Space Center (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/science-technology/space-programs/kennedy-space-center-PLCUL000170.topic).

One administration official said the budget will send a message that it's time members of Congress recognize that NASA can't design space programs to create jobs in their districts. "That's the view of the president," the official said.

Robert Block, who reported from Cape Canaveral (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/travel/tourism-leisure/cape-canaveral-PLREC000051.topic), can be reached at [email protected] or 321-639-0522. Mark K. Matthews, who reported from Washington, can be reached at [email protected]

orlandosentinel.com ([email protected]%3C/p%3E%3Cp%3Eorlandosentinel.com) or 202-824-8222.


According to Orbital Vector (http://orbital-vector.blogspot.com/2010/01/future-in-space-has-just-been-gutted.html):

I didn't have too much problem with the current administration refocusing space efforts. Just about every administration for the past 50 years has done the same when they took office. But this isn't just turning it in a different direction, this is clubbing it on the head and dragging the body off for disposal.

This is not a 100% done deal, but without the executive branch's support, which appoints and oversees NASA's administrators, its doubtful NASA can go any way except the way the White House wants, no matter what Congress may decide.

With this decision, the United States ceases to be a nation of explorers. There will still be US citizens who explore, certainly. But as a matter of national will and direction, we have decided to abandon our outposts, anchor our ships, and just huddle by the hearth fire.

I understand there's an ongoing recession, that one out of six Americans are out of work. But space exploration has always been long-term investment, one whose seeds you plant today to reap the rewards decades down the line. No matter how hungry you are, you don't eat your seed corn. We need investments for the future--investments that go beyond shoveling cash to already affluent corporations.
He later rants on about NASA being a "people's program" for space, but beside that silly nationalist sentiment I believe he has a point. This effectively sets space exploration back another 10 to 20 years, if not more.

I believe we should set ourselves the goal to settle on the Moon permanently, if only for the vast quantities of He3 available (which can be used to provide the planet for thousands of years of cheap energy).

What do you think?

bcbm
28th January 2010, 12:13
it sounds like their focus is shifting more toward earth-based projects like dealing with climate change, which i think is a lot more important than space exploration right now.

Q
28th January 2010, 12:22
it sounds like their focus is shifting more toward earth-based projects like dealing with climate change, which i think is a lot more important than space exploration right now.
Saying that climate change research is more important than space exploration is the wrong dichotomy I think. The NASA budget is just under 20 billion dollars, which is a joke in the first place. The budget for the Pentagon is many hundreds of billions, by just cutting into that and, say, doubling the NASA budget both important targets of Earth-based research and space exploration can be achieved.

Yazman
28th January 2010, 14:03
Climatology? For NASA? In place of space exploration, THE REASON THEY EXIST? Are they fucking serious? Holy shit, these stupid fucking plans better not get through.

Tatarin
29th January 2010, 05:15
No surprises here. What have we really found? A lot of, uh, space and rocks of red and grey colors. Some have some ice, some have clouds and acid rain. Gold? Oil? Suitable for colonization by humans? Nope. So why go there? It's a lot of money spent on nothing.

As long as any space agency is an agency, calls itself "European" or "National" or ends with "Corporation" or "& Co." I am more than convinced that we won't be up there a lot. Will there be more pictures and videos? Sure. Some new findings from say Mars and Venus? Hopefully. But there won't be anything else since there is simply no profit out there.

Who knows, maybe they do find some super-resource on Mars, perhaps only then will the troops leave Afghanistan and Iraq, have some space training and then be sent to Mars to secure the resource? :P

cska
29th January 2010, 05:46
Geez. This is awful. Hopefully at least the Russians turn out to be serious about going to Mars.

Revy
29th January 2010, 06:58
No surprises here. What have we really found? A lot of, uh, space and rocks of red and grey colors. Some have some ice, some have clouds and acid rain. Gold? Oil? Suitable for colonization by humans? Nope. So why go there? It's a lot of money spent on nothing.

There's Helium-3 on the Moon.
Not sure about Mars, but it's the most likely candidate for human colonization (and terraforming).

The Apollo program was never about advancing the human race into space although that is how it was portrayed. It was part of a nationalistic competition. Which is why the Moon was abandoned and the focus went back to orbital manned missions.

Anyway, I think they should send missions to the Moon and Mars, but they should send robots instead of humans first. So that robots could build the bases.

Revy
29th January 2010, 07:02
it sounds like their focus is shifting more toward earth-based projects like dealing with climate change, which i think is a lot more important than space exploration right now.

"Dealing with climate change" requires reducing pollution of CO2 into the atmosphere by switching to clean, alternative fuels. NASA is in charge of space exploration not energy policy.

AK
29th January 2010, 09:49
Maybe NASA's moon TV set burnt down?

bcbm
29th January 2010, 13:53
"Dealing with climate change" requires reducing pollution of CO2 into the atmosphere by switching to clean, alternative fuels. NASA is in charge of space exploration not energy policy.


the first line of NASA's mission statement is a pledge "to understand and protect our home planet"

you can read more from someone who actually works for nasa here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/nasas-prophet-give-t128040/index.html).

Q
29th January 2010, 14:10
you can read more from someone who actually works for nasa here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/nasas-prophet-give-t128040/index.html).
Not to get too much on semantics here, but the scientific consensus is pretty big on the climate change chiefly being caused on planet Earth itself as opposed to extra-terrestrial sources, which is in the scope of NASA.

bcbm
29th January 2010, 14:40
the scope of nasa includes studying the earth, because the earth resides in space. this is why they have an entire institute dedicated to studying the earth, particularly its climate.



A key objective of GISS research is prediction of atmospheric and climate changes in the 21st century. The research combines analysis of comprehensive global datasets, derived mainly from spacecraft observations, with global models of atmospheric, land surface, and oceanic processes.

As the principal NASA center for Earth observations, Goddard Space Flight Center plays a leading role in global change research. Global change studies at GISS are coordinated with research at other groups within the Earth Sciences Division, including the Laboratory for Atmospheres, Laboratory for Hydrospheric and Biospheric Sciences, and Earth Observing System science office.
this is in line with the first line of nasa's mission statement, which i already quoted and you seem to have missed: to understand and protect our home planet

ÑóẊîöʼn
29th January 2010, 19:24
Bullshit like this is why NASA hasn't returned to the Moon or gone to Mars already - meddling politicians who don't know shit about how to run a long-term science project, and whose only goal is to get re-elected. Obama is simply the latest in a long line of such know-nothing suits.

Science in general, not just space exploration, needs to be cut free from the petty squabbles and pork barreling of snivelling politicos, as well as the predations of miserly bean-counters who care only for the bottom line rather than for advancing the species or increasing the sum total of human knowledge.

jake williams
30th January 2010, 14:59
Fuck that I want a moon colony :).


Seriously though: such a program would quite probably be innovatively productive in much the same way as previous space programs have been. That said, don't have any illusions: NASA is an arm of the US military, it does other things on the side when there's no decision to use it for some specific military use, but the calculations about the moon settlement are based on those decisions. Maybe it would still be useful for the human species to settle the moon anyway; on the other hand, a military program to colonize the moon, which would inevitably right now be based on a calculation of the Empire's own self interest, may not be in the best interest of us. It's kind of a hard call, there's a lot of variables.

Salyut
31st January 2010, 04:09
I knew this was gonna happen. :(

http://www.nss.org/settlement/moon/FLO.html

Here's a bunch of studies from the 90's. More capable then what Constellation devolved to in the end.

Maybe they could stack all the studies and just climb to the moon. ;_;

khad
31st January 2010, 05:38
Bullshit like this is why NASA hasn't returned to the Moon or gone to Mars already - meddling politicians who don't know shit about how to run a long-term science project, and whose only goal is to get re-elected. Obama is simply the latest in a long line of such know-nothing suits.

Science in general, not just space exploration, needs to be cut free from the petty squabbles and pork barreling of snivelling politicos, as well as the predations of miserly bean-counters who care only for the bottom line rather than for advancing the species or increasing the sum total of human knowledge.
I have never seen more pathetic whining. What stake do you even have in this, seeing as how you don't even live in the United States?

You may not care about the bottom line, but for the rest of us who live in the real world and don't feed ourselves by wanking off to Star Trek, it's important. As a materialist, I am wholly unsympathetic to idealist sophistry.

For that matter, you should be consistent and whine about how this country isn't going to buy enough F-22s, since that frickin project is so pioneering in the fields of materials and aeronautics--anything to advance the sum total of human knowledge, no matter the cost.


Climatology? For NASA? In place of space exploration, THE REASON THEY EXIST? Are they fucking serious? Holy shit, these stupid fucking plans better not get through.
I don't know what training you've had in English, but if you know anything about how to parse "National Aeronautics and Space Administration," Aeronautics comes before Space in the goddamn name.

Glenn Beck
31st January 2010, 05:57
NASA already studies the atmosphere as part of their mandate for Aeronautics, it's not going to kill them to coordinate that research to enhancing the understanding of the climate. Going to Mars or going to the moon again is a far less efficient use of resources than pure research or unmanned exploration missions. The new budget guidelines allow for maintaining the ISS so that about covers maintaining a human presence in space. I'm not really seeing the big deal about these shifts in priorities. Now NASA being underfunded is a different matter, there certainly should be more resources allocated to scientific research, but that's true of a lot of things. . .

Revy
31st January 2010, 07:05
Personally, I was only objecting to the idea that NASA could "deal with" climate change. They can study it, but we've already studied enough to know it's a big problem. Studying more about it won't do anything about it.

Revy
31st January 2010, 07:14
NASA already studies the atmosphere as part of their mandate for Aeronautics, it's not going to kill them to coordinate that research to enhancing the understanding of the climate. Going to Mars or going to the moon again is a far less efficient use of resources than pure research or unmanned exploration missions. The new budget guidelines allow for maintaining the ISS so that about covers maintaining a human presence in space. I'm not really seeing the big deal about these shifts in priorities. Now NASA being underfunded is a different matter, there certainly should be more resources allocated to scientific research, but that's true of a lot of things. . .

It could be a good thing if it means there is more of a chance of the Moon/Mars effort being a global effort. Instead of a new Space Race. But the manned mission ideas don't impress me either. I'm more fascinated by the idea of sending robots up there first to build everything. Robots don't need oxygen, water, or food and radiation wouldn't be a problem for them either. it makes more sense, especially if we're talking just about exploration and science.

ÑóẊîöʼn
31st January 2010, 17:27
I have never seen more pathetic whining. What stake do you even have in this, seeing as how you don't even live in the United States?

Why the fuck should I care about anything outside of my own limited personal sphere? Because that's the logical endpoint of what you're saying.

Regardless, I suspect that NASA is not alone in having its budgets and projects meddled with for short-term political gains. Certainly in the UK where I live, science is one of the first casualties of budget-slashing.


You may not care about the bottom line, but for the rest of us who live in the real world and don't feed ourselves by wanking off to Star Trek, it's important. As a materialist, I am wholly unsympathetic to idealist sophistry.

What makes you think the ruling class's idea of "the bottom line" bears anything except an incidental relation to that of the rest of us? By the way, I do happen to live in the real world, and every day I see the consequences of what happens when political and economic concerns are allowed to run roughshod over scientific advancement. Considering that science is one of our best ways of understanding the material universe (of which human individuals and society form a part), your talk of "idealist sophistry" is pure garbage.


For that matter, you should be consistent and whine about how this country isn't going to buy enough F-22s, since that frickin project is so pioneering in the fields of materials and aeronautics--anything to advance the sum total of human knowledge, no matter the cost.

I don't know what training you've had in English, but if you know anything about how to parse "National Aeronautics and Space Administration," Aeronautics comes before Space in the goddamn name.

The fact you mention F-22s with regards to aeronautics seems to show a distinct failure of imagination on your part - constructing a supersonic passenger jet would be a far greater scientific and engineering challenge, which would also feed into research for a 100% reusable spaceplane that would reduce the energy and material costs of accessing space, which would be of benefit to all for reasons I have outlined previously.

Yazman
1st February 2010, 02:29
For that matter, you should be consistent and whine about how this country isn't going to buy enough F-22s, since that frickin project is so pioneering in the fields of materials and aeronautics--anything to advance the sum total of human knowledge, no matter the cost.

I think you're actually TRYING not to make a real argument. Saying "LOL it has AERONAUTICS in the name!!" doesn't make an argument. I don't care how ignorant or how insulting you want to be towards other users here (something you should actually AVOID doing by the way, as a moderator).

Its funny you keep bringing up F-22s and shit. NASA is a SPACE AGENCY. Furthermore, it is a CIVILIAN space agency. You need to realise that the history of why NASA was established will ALWAYS trump some shitty "it has THIS word in its name" argument. NASA was set up as a civilian space agency. The various military branches were doing their own, independent research and used to actually have a say in what NASA did (and still do to a certain extent). The very legislation that established the organisation DEFINES NASA AS A SPACE AGENCY.

Here's a link to that legislation that created NASA, its on THEIR OWN site.
http://www.nasa.gov/offices/ogc/about/space_act1.html


I don't know what training you've had in English, but if you know anything about how to parse "National Aeronautics and Space Administration," Aeronautics comes before Space in the goddamn name.

I like how your entire argument rests on the word "aeronautics." But obviously you've never actually heard of a concept called "context", and how it can change the definition of a word in a fundamental way.

"Aeronautics" in the context of NASA's name and mission means the following:


Sec. 103. As used in this Act--
(1) the term "aeronautical and space activities" means
(A) research into, and the solution of, problems of flight within and outside the Earth's atmosphere,
(B) the development, construction, testing, and operation for research purposes of aeronautical and space vehicles,
(C) the operation of a space transportation system including the Space Shuttle, upper stages, space platforms, and related equipment, and
(D) such other activities as may be required for the exploration of space; and

It is clearly geared towards activities in space, as the entire piece of legislation states over, and over, and over, and over again. "aeronautical and space activities" is even DEFINED as activities relating to space flight!

It doesn't make sense to gear NASA as an organisation towards climatology and conventional aeronautics, things which it was not created to do, and which it was never even intended to do. We have ENTIRE INDUSTRIES devoted to such things already, not to mention the US already has existing bodies doing such jobs. To have NASA make them its main concern is ridiculously stupid. A little bit from each is important of course but space is NASA's main focus - it always has been given that its a space agency.

Wolf Larson
27th February 2010, 00:02
it sounds like their focus is shifting more toward earth-based projects like dealing with climate change, which i think is a lot more important than space exploration right now.

The US government is NOT focusing on climate change. They, along with monopoly capitalists, are seeking to both create a green tech bubble while putting smaller business out of business. If you think Al Gore is an environmentalist you're quite mistaken. Carbon and its impact on the earth is real and global warming is a dire threat to the earth/life on earth BUT thinking politicians in Washington are representing anything but monopoly corporate capitalism and the profits of the top 200 corporations you're mistaken. We all need to be very very weary of climate change legislation coming out of Washington. Concentrated wealth is still in control of our government. Nothing has changed with Obama in office. In fact, if anything, Wall St has become more powerful under Obama. He and the Democratic Leadership Council are fooling many well meaning socialists. Al Gore and Obama are capitalist swine and they represent capitalist swine.

Dimentio
5th March 2010, 22:35
Source (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/space/os-no-moon-for-nasa-20100126,0,2770904.story):


According to Orbital Vector (http://orbital-vector.blogspot.com/2010/01/future-in-space-has-just-been-gutted.html):

He later rants on about NASA being a "people's program" for space, but beside that silly nationalist sentiment I believe he has a point. This effectively sets space exploration back another 10 to 20 years, if not more.

I believe we should set ourselves the goal to settle on the Moon permanently, if only for the vast quantities of He3 available (which can be used to provide the planet for thousands of years of cheap energy).

What do you think?

Given the state of the US economy, I'd rather have the moon programme cut than the social security.

ÑóẊîöʼn
6th March 2010, 20:40
The US government is NOT focusing on climate change. They, along with monopoly capitalists, are seeking to both create a green tech bubble while putting smaller business out of business. If you think Al Gore is an environmentalist you're quite mistaken. Carbon and its impact on the earth is real and global warming is a dire threat to the earth/life on earth

Climate change is a problem, but hyperbole like this only hurts matters.

Climate change is a human problem. It was created by humans, it will hurt humans and hopefully the worst of the consequences will be mitigated by purposeful human activity.