Legal high drug dealer shot.

[IrishWorker]

I just heard on the grapevine that the person shot in Derry today owned/worked in a shop that sold legal substitutes for ecstasy cannabis cocaine etc.
Man serious after gun attack

A man is in a serious condition in hospital with gunshot wounds after being attacked in commercial premises in Londonderry.
Wednesday, 27 January 2010

Tags:

police
Local News


At about 5.30pm a man wearing a motorcycle helmet entered the premises in the Waterloo Street area and fired several shots.
The man sustained gunshot injuries to his lower body and is believed to be in a serious condition in hospital.
The area has been sealed off.

http://www.u.tv/News/Man-serious-after-gun-attack/af276f47-f1c2-4e27-8fd8-cb58d00b2c58

[Sasha]

jezus, i thought those northen irish (catholic or protestant) knew their bible, very first fucking chapter: 2 people, 1 god, whole world to use freely except 1 forbidden aple etc etc. conclusion: prohibtion doesnt work, legalisation does.

who are they going to shoot next, pub-owners and tabaco shop keepers?

[JazzRemington]

This reminds me of that right-wing group in the US that goes around killing drug dealers and other "social undesirables."

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I can see the reasoning behind dropping regular dealers who by and large are pricks who tend to make life miserable for a stupidly large amount of people however this is just moralism and cock waving.

[IrishWorker]

I have too agree this one is probably a step too far.

[The Douche]

This reminds me of that right-wing group in the US that goes around killing drug dealers and other "social undesirables."

What group is this?

[Sasha]

you know what, i think people shooting people are an danger to the community (for sure bigger than someone selling some legal herbs in an smart-shop) maybe we should shoot them?

[khad]

jezus, i thought those northen irish (catholic or protestant) knew their bible, very first fucking chapter: 2 people, 1 god, whole world to use freely except 1 forbidden aple etc etc. conclusion: prohibtion doesnt work, legalisation does.

who are they going to shoot next, pub-owners and tabaco shop keepers?
Oh yeah, I'm sure the solution to the CIA and cappies pumping crack into African American communities was legalization. :rolleyes:

[Sasha]

i'm not having this discussion with you again, you know my stance, yes it would have but then the CIA would have found sommething else to destroy the radical poltical black movement

[khad]

i'm not having this discussion with you again, you know my stance, yes it would haveYou're delusional. All legalization does with something like crack cocaine is make the capitalists pushing it even more protected by the state. It'd be big fucking business.


but then the CIA would have found sommething else to destroy the radical poltical black movementNothing destroys any ability to resist better than having an entire population turned into non-functioning addicts.

[bcbm]

Oh yeah, I'm sure the solution to the CIA and cappies pumping crack into African American communities was legalization. :rolleyes:

yes. if legalization would've made their destructive effect in african-american communities more pronounced, you don't think the cia and cappies would have hesitated to legalize? keeping the drugs illegal made it easy for them to be funneled through already existing community networks that were largely political, destabilize them and turn their community efforts towards warfare against very similar organizations, destroying the threat they were beginning to possess to the state.

[khad]

yes. if legalization would've made their destructive effect in african-american communities more pronounced, you don't think the cia and cappies would have hesitated to legalize? keeping the drugs illegal made it easy for them to be funneled through already existing community networks that were largely political, destabilize them and turn their community efforts towards warfare against very similar organizations, destroying the threat they were beginning to possess to the state.
Then would you call the black panther party reactionaries, then, for trying to stop drug use in African American communities?

The reason why legalization was not an option had more to do with the fact that it was easier to keep the epidemic contained and ghettoized in the African American community.

[Sasha]

You're delusional. All legalization does with something like crack cocaine is make the capitalists pushing it even more protected by the state. It'd be big fucking business.


its big buisness now, with legalization comes responsibility's on quality, education, i think an ban on advertisment (like with tabaco here) would be reasonble etc etc.
and i'm talking pre-revolutionary society so tax will be used to finance adiction prevention programs, cops will be cathing people who shoot people etc etc.

[Wanted Man]

Practical experience over the past decades worldwide should show the obvious problems with taking a punitive approach to drugs. Killing a few dealers will not do much about the guys on top. Also, being tolerant and helping out addicts, rather than punishing them, seems to produce superior results.

But even on the left, perhaps some people would rather ignore this and continue to fight the unwinnable war on drugs. Even the US government has quietly gotten a bit smarter: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-waves-white-flag-in-disastrous-war-on-drugs-1870218.html

[bcbm]

Then would you call the black panther party reactionaries, then, for trying to stop drug use in African American communities?

stopping drug use is not a goal counter to legalization. legalizing drugs lessens the social damage they cause by keeping users out of prison, lessening the power and impact of criminal organizations and providing more options for the treatment of addiction.

[khad]

Practical experience over the past decades worldwide should show the obvious problems with taking a punitive approach to drugs. Killing a few dealers will not do much about the guys on top. Also, being tolerant and helping out addicts, rather than punishing them, seems to produce superior results.

But even on the left, perhaps some people would rather ignore this and continue to fight the unwinnable war on drugs. Even the US government has quietly gotten a bit smarter: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-waves-white-flag-in-disastrous-war-on-drugs-1870218.html

"Evidence points to aircraft – familiarly known as "torture taxis" – used by the CIA to move captives seized in its kidnapping or "extraordinary rendition" operations through Gatwick and other airports in the EU being simultaneously used for drug distribution in the Western hemisphere. A Gulfstream II jet aircraft N9875A identified by the British Government and the European Parliament as being involved in this traffic crashed in Mexico in September 2008 while en route from Colombia to the US with a load of more than three tons of cocaine."

Well, this is what happens when you have a hypocritical organization that is both dealing and banning drugs simultaneously. There's an inherent conflict of interest, which is not necessarily the case with other anti-narcotics campaigns in the past.

In any event, no one in this thread condoned punishing addicts, so I don't know why you want to bring that up.


stopping drug use is not a goal counter to legalization. legalizing drugs lessens the social damage they cause by keeping users out of prison, lessening the power and impact of criminal organizations and providing more options for the treatment of addiction.
The "criminals" just become legally protected businessmen. This is precisely what happened with mafiosos involved in trafficking when Europe relaxed its prostitution laws (effectively another example of farming out their least desirable occupations to Eastern European immigrants, many of whom were coerced into immigrating).

[IrishWorker]

Legalization of hard drugs doesn’t work period. Heroin nearly destroyed Christiania in Denmark.

Eviction of 'hard drugs'
One of the most significant community accomplishments in the history of Christiania was the 'junk blockade' in November 1979. The government was still very hostile but the community faced other acute challenges as well. Many Christiania residents were interested in mind-altering techniques, including psychotropic substances. During the late 1970s 'hard drugs' such as heroin (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Heroin) were considered permissible, but this had grave consequences. In one year, from 1978 to 1979, ten people had died in Christiania from drug overdose; four of them were residents there. Most of them lived in a building called 'The Arc of Peace', which was in an extreme level of disrepair. Doors were missing, there were holes in the floors, and in most rooms there was no furniture except mattresses. It was a terribly unhealthy environment and the Christianites became increasingly aware that the situation could not continue.
An attempt was made to cooperate with the police in order to get rid of the heroin pushers, which was something many Christianites felt extremely uncomfortable about due to their anarchical tradition and the continuous clashes between Christiania and the police. Despite the shared feelings of distrust, however, some Christianites felt there was no other way to fix such problem, and supplied the police with a list of suspected 'hard drug' networks. The intention of the Christianites' decision was made very clear: police were to concentrate only on 'hard drugs'.
Feeling betrayed and bitter the Christianites decided not to cooperate any further with the authorities, and instead launched what was to be known as the Junk Blockade. For 40 days and nights the Christianites—men, women, and children—patrolled 'The Arc of Peace' and whenever they found junkies or pushers they gave them an ultimatum: either quit all activities with hard drugs or leave Christiania. In the end, the pushers were forced to leave, and sixty people entered drug rehabilitation.
It is part of the Christiania mythology that there are no 'hard drugs' consumed in Christiania anymore, but cocaine and speed is found to be among more and more visitors. It is still not being sold in Pusher Street though.[citation needed (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] The increase in the use of cocaine, amphetamines and other substances has been on the rise for the past decade and is problem all over Denmark. It does affect Christiania as well, but the ban on hard drugs is still guiding the recreational activities in the community. People in Christiania deal with it frequently but are still willing to keep the community open and their values intact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania#Eviction_of_.27hard_drugs.27

[bcbm]

The "criminals" just become legally protected businessmen. This is precisely what happened with mafiosos involved in trafficking when Europe relaxed its prostitution laws (effectively another example of farming out their least desirable occupations to Eastern European immigrants, many of whom were coerced into immigrating).

this isn't really a response to the point i'm trying to get across, but since you bring it up, i don't think "legally protected businessmen" would be forced to settle territorial disputes over incredibly small geographic areas with extreme amounts of violence that grip communities in fear, lead to many casualties innocent or otherwise and keep a significant portion of their organizational members rotating through the prison system. this would probably be better for the communities they're in.


Legalization of hard drugs doesn’t work period. Heroin nearly destroyed Christiania in Denmark.

this example isn't really relevant to legalization as anyone is talking about it here. christiania simply became a haven for heroin pushers as they could operate more or less with impunity. that makes it still a symptom of drug criminalization.

[IrishWorker]

bcbm
this example isn't really relevant to legalization as anyone is talking about it here. christiania simply became a haven for heroin pushers as they could operate more or less with impunity. that makes it still a symptom of drug criminalization.


So heroin pushers operating from the high street would be different?
The social problems that exist from Heroin use will not disappear overnight due to legalization, Heroin is the problem.

[khad]

this isn't really a response to the point i'm trying to get across, but since you bring it up, i don't think "legally protected businessmen" would be forced to settle territorial disputes over incredibly small geographic areas with extreme amounts of violence that grip communities in fear, lead to many casualties innocent or otherwise and keep a significant portion of their organizational members rotating through the prison system. this would probably be better for the communities they're in.
You'd make an excellent agent for the British Empire in 19th century China.

[JazzRemington]

What group is this?

I can't recall the name, but there was a news report that was about them. Basically, this group broke into a suspected drug dealer's house to kill him - but he was away at the time. I think someone on here posted it, somewhere.

[bcbm]

So heroin pushers operating from the high street would be different?

heroin being offered to users in clinical settings with access to resources designed to lower the social impact of the drug and help users kick the addiction would be different. i imagine this is what most people mean when they talk about legalization, not heroin being offered for sale next to aspirin at the corner store.


The social problems that exist from Heroin use will not disappear overnight due to legalization, Heroin is the problem.most of the social problems associated with heroin are problems associated with the fact that it is illegal and drug users and sellers are forced underground.


You'd make an excellent agent for the British Empire in 19th century China.are you going to attempt to address the actual argument i'm making, or just be a dick?

[IrishWorker]

heroin being offered to users in clinical settings with access to resources designed to lower the social impact of the drug and help users kick the addiction would be different. i imagine this is what most people mean when they talk about legalization, not heroin being offered for sale next to aspirin at the corner store.

most of the social problems associated with heroin are problems associated with the fact that it is illegal and drug users and sellers are forced underground.

It would lead to widespread use on the scale of alcohol more families destroyed more heart ach for the working class.
It’s simply madness if you can’t see that it is your living in a bubble.
The only cure for the heroin epidemic is destroying capitalism and forced rehabilitation of the addicts.
Your liberal nonsense is sickening and completely devoid of reality.

[bcbm]

It would lead to widespread use on the scale of alcohol more families destroyed more heart ach for the working class.

the experience of every country that has enacted such programs suggests otherwise.

[IrishWorker]

the experience of every country that has enacted such programs suggests otherwise.
The same as Freetown? Heroin is a poison and should be treated as such.

[Glenn Beck]

heroin being offered to users in clinical settings with access to resources designed to lower the social impact of the drug and help users kick the addiction would be different. i imagine this is what most people mean when they talk about legalization, not heroin being offered for sale next to aspirin at the corner store.

That's decriminalization and harm reduction, not full legalization.

[bcbm]

The same as Freetown? Heroin is a poison and should be treated as such.

i already explained why christiania wasn't a good example of what anyone is talking about here.


in Switzerland the incidence of heroin abuse has declined sharply since the introduction of heroin assisted treatment. As a study published in the lancet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_lancet) concluded:
The harm reduction policy of Switzerland and its emphasis on the medicalisation of the heroin problem seems to have contributed to the image of heroin as unattractive for young people."
— Nordt, Carlos, and Rudolf Stohler, "Incidence of Heroin Use in Zurich, Switzerland: A Treatment Case Register Analysis," [4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin_assisted_treatment#cite_note-3)
Also, the notion that patients in heroin assisted treatment are enabled to maintain "destructive behavior" contradicts the findings that patients significantly recover in terms of both their social and health situation. Many participants in the German "Heroinstudie" were able to find employment (~ 40%), some even started a family after years of homelessness and delinquency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin_assisted_treatment

[IrishWorker]

i already explained why christiania wasn't a good example of what anyone is talking about here.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin_assisted_treatment
So you do not support full legalization you support decriminalization and harm reduction?That was a bit of a U Turn I’m glad we cleared that up.
Switzerland is an example of a method of dealing with Heroin in Capitalist society but I have no doubt all the problems that come with heroin use didn’t disappear it would be foolish to think so.
In the short term Switzerland is a good example of treating the problem but it still exists.
Destroying Capitalism and forced rehabilitation in the long term is the only thing that can rid the world of this disease.

[bcbm]

yes, i should have made that more clear from the beginning, sorry.


forced rehabilitation in the long term is the only thing that can rid the world of this disease

i think this would only serve to drive drug use back underground.

[Glenn Beck]

"Forced" rehabilitation seems like an unnecessarily harsh phrasing for something that shouldn't be controversial. Someone suffering from acute psychosis might need to be temporarily institutionalized until they are stable, and needs a social worker or some equivalent to check up on them periodically once they are released; an addict being rehabilitated isn't in a position to decide how much drugs they are administered, how often, and whether or not to go into detox if they have a relapse. Drug addiction is treated like a psychiatric condition and that requires supervision and follow-through, which are not oppressive. Even capitalist medicine has for the most part left permanent institutionalization and harsh involuntary treatments behind as ineffective and cost-inefficient, the main problem is that they have often failed to replace old methods with anything at all.

[Sasha]

instead of having the hundreth thread on heroin and crack can we maybe getting back to the shooting of a person (aledligy) because he worked in a store selling legal herbs, caffiene and vitamins.

[Salyut]

Don't most head shops in Europe carry these sort of things?

[The Red Next Door]

Drug dealers are the worst bunch that are a part of capitalism, don't get me wrong i do not agree with murder, but people willing to fuck up someone life and the community by giving someone poison for the green need to be cap. Accept for herb dealers, marijuana is cool.

[Glenn Beck]

instead of having the hundreth thread on heroin and crack can we maybe getting back to the shooting of a person (aledligy) because he worked in a store selling legal herbs, caffiene and vitamins.

It's bullshit, I don't know if whoever did this was drugged out themselves or what. Those "legal highs" shops generally just sell harmless stoner junk and weak supplements and herbs. If someone did shoot him on the basis that he was a drug pusher then they are horribly and tragically wrong and no more noble than a common murderer. Of course maybe the guy was involved in some extracurricular activities in the drug scene that made some folks inclined to think he deserved to be knocked off, but there's no evidence for that. I don't think a serious drug pusher would waste the time and risk the potential liability of having a day job at a head shop.

Vigilante 'justice' is even more prone to miss its mark than the regular kind, which is why if this kind of thing is going to be done it needs to be done with the active participation and understanding of the public under a representative popular organization, not a bunch of adventurist thugs with no mandate.

[Sasha]

Don't most head shops in Europe carry these sort of things?

yup, and its peanuts compared to what you can buy over the counter without perscription in any store in the US.

[IrishWorker]

instead of having the hundreth thread on heroin and crack can we maybe getting back to the shooting of a person (aledligy) because he worked in a store selling legal herbs, caffiene and vitamins.

The way these things work is if enough people complain to Republicans about a certain person drug dealer car breaker house breaker anti social youth noisy neighbor peado etc then Republicans will act on behalf of the majority of the community.
Punishments range from death to expulsion from the community for six months.
There is a very wide range of barbaric things that often happen a guy once got nailed to a fence with a hilti gun hands and feet my next door neighbor got his ankle blown off for setting a donkey’s tail on fire.
But for the most part the people who receive this “punishment" usually deserve it.
I don’t want to be seen as the guy who defends this type of thing as I now don’t support it but I can’t bring myself to out right condemn it either.
It’s just not that black and white.

[Sendo]

well, to the debate going on about legalization. Legalize marijuana since it's natural ad no very harmful and very useful for industrial applications grows easily, too.

Hard drugs: confiscate them, punish the big-time dealers, and rehabilitate the addicts. Worked for China.

[fionntan]

I can't recall the name, but there was a news report that was about them. Basically, this group broke into a suspected drug dealer's house to kill him - but he was away at the time. I think someone on here posted it, somewhere.


I believe the IRA shot him