"Real IRA murdered man in Cork"

[pastradamus]

Well, living in the locality we suspected as much. It has been confirmed today. The thing that really bothered me here was that these guys sprayed taunting and insulting graffiti all along the funeral route which is now taking place as im typing this.

From Newstalk.ie


The Real IRA has reportedly claimed responsibility for the murder of a man in Cork last week.
42 year Ger Stanton was shot dead in front of his partner and her two young children outside his rented home in Wilton last Wednesday evening.
Ger Stanton was known to Gardai, and was due to appear before the courts later this year to face drugs charges.
His murder was described by senior officers as cold, callous and calculated – as it was committed in front of very young children.
In a statement to tonight’s Evening Echo, a group claiming to be the ‘32 County Sovereignty Movement’ says the Real IRA was behind the attack.
Leaflets had been distributed in Cork last September attributed to the same group, threatening to kill suspected drug dealers.

[Andropov]

If he was the dealer pushing Heroin in Cork well then good riddance.
Alot of young lads have died of Over Doses in the past year in Cork.

[pastradamus]

If he was the dealer pushing Heroin in Cork well then good riddance.
Alot of young lads have died of Over Doses in the past year in Cork.

Oh yeah. Be that as it may, I still find it disgraceful about the graffiti they sprayed on the walls around the place afterwards. Its not doing the family of this guy any good - who by the way are all nice people and are nothing like the son. But overall, if this can in any way slow down the importation of heroin into the city then I suppose screw him.

[bcbm]

executing someone who was already due to go to court in front of children, real fucking heroic. a proud moment for the liberation movement, i'm sure.

[pastradamus]

executing someone who was already due to go to court in front of children, real fucking heroic. a proud moment for the liberation movement, i'm sure.

Absolutely. Those kids will probably never be right after seeing that. Its the callousness of the whole thing that pisses me off. The whole before and after is a complete fucking joke.

[Coggeh]

Oh yeah. Be that as it may, I still find it disgraceful about the graffiti they sprayed on the walls around the place afterwards. Its not doing the family of this guy any good - who by the way are all nice people and are nothing like the son. But overall, if this can in any way slow down the importation of heroin into the city then I suppose screw him.
It won't do anything to slow down the importation of heroin into the city, killing one drug dealer won't act as a deterrent to others , theirs still a market for it , still poor young men and women around who can be dragged into selling it .

The only way to stop the use of heroin in cork or anywhere else is to make it available to users like they did in the 80's in Liverpool until Thatcher shut it down. They gave heroin to addicts along with counselling, psychological and emotional support , links to getting off heroin , links to getting an education and getting a job . Because of this heroin use was hugely reduced, people didn't need to steal/hurt/kill for it and they didn't need to pressure others on to it to buy it . So addiction rates, crime rates and use rates all plummeted. And the only people this hurt were guess who ? the drug runners themselves.

[pastradamus]

It won't do anything to slow down the importation of heroin into the city, killing one drug dealer won't act as a deterrent to others , theirs still a market for it , still poor young men and women around who can be dragged into selling it .

The only way to stop the use of heroin in cork or anywhere else is to make it available to users like they did in the 80's in Liverpool until Thatcher shut it down. They gave heroin to addicts along with counselling, psychological and emotional support , links to getting off heroin , links to getting an education and getting a job . Because of this heroin use was hugely reduced, people didn't need to steal/hurt/kill for it and they didn't need to pressure others on to it to buy it . So addiction rates, crime rates and use rates all plummeted. And the only people this hurt were guess who ? the drug runners themselves.

Long gone are the days of the Heaphy family and the Provo's keeping heroin out of cork. Now its turning into 80's Dublin again. What I meant by my earlier post was that I simply wont lose any sleep knowing this guy is gone, but that being said, I dont think the RIRA fried a big fish here. The guy was in massive debt and was more or less a nobody.

[Hoggy_RS]

Is it not possible the RIRA are taking credit for drug dealer infighting in order to make themselves seem relevant? I just don't feel like this was an RIRA job, especially with the recent killings of low level drug dealers across the country recently. Seems like one of the big boys is getting paranoid(or maybe i'm reading too many tabloids!).

All the same, we all know that legalization is the only answer, not killing low level dealers.

[IrishWorker]

All dealers are wanna be cappie bastards anyway sad to see the graffiti as we shouldn’t gloat but as pastradamus said I wont be losing any sleep over this piece of shit.
Killing the heroin dealers is certainly not the end solution but I can’t bring myself to condemn it.

[Invader Zim]

And the Real IRA have issue with drug dealers? It isn't as if they don't have their own dubious history and suspect connections.

[IrishWorker]

And the Real IRA have issue with drug dealers? With their history?
I take it you are referring to Omagh?

[Coggeh]

All dealers are wanna be cappie bastards anyway sad to see the graffiti as we shouldn’t gloat but as pastradamus said I wont be losing any sleep over this piece of shit.
Killing the heroin dealers is certainly not the end solution but I can’t bring myself to condemn it.
If you know that this is no solution then why are you a member of the IRSM ? seeing as the INLA have been doing the same type of stupid sh*t.

[khad]

Doesn't exactly help, but it doesn't hurt either. Let's not turn this into a tendency war.

[IrishWorker]

If you know that this is no solution then why are you a member of the IRSM ? seeing as the INLA have been doing the same type of stupid sh*t.
I think you will find the INLA never killed anyone for selling drugs mo chara.

[pastradamus]

All dealers are wanna be cappie bastards anyway sad to see the graffiti as we shouldn’t gloat but as pastradamus said I wont be losing any sleep over this piece of shit.
Killing the heroin dealers is certainly not the end solution but I can’t bring myself to condemn it.

Its also the cold-bloodedness and callousness circumstance of executing a person on front of his partner and two kids. How this bastard had the heart to go through with this I cant bring myself to imagine what people are capable of.

[pastradamus]

Is it not possible the RIRA are taking credit for drug dealer infighting in order to make themselves seem relevant? I just don't feel like this was an RIRA job, especially with the recent killings of low level drug dealers across the country recently. Seems like on of the big boys is getting paranoid(or maybe i'm reading too many tabloids!).

All the same, we all know that legislation is the only answer, not killing low level dealers.

I too felt this way. Until last friday when I was talking to a 60 year old ex-provo in a bar and he told me that the Media is correct to speculate on this issue. He namely said "it was the RIRA" whereas RTE simply said "dissident republicans". That and the phone call from the 32csm really hit it home for me.

[IrishWorker]

Its also the cold-bloodedness and callousness circumstance of executing a person on front of his partner and two kids. How this bastard had the heart to go through with this I cant bring myself to imagine what people are capable of.
Very true my heart goes out to the mans family who witnessed his killing and lets not forget the families of the addicts.
Very sad all round.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I think you will find the INLA never killed anyone for selling drugs mo chara.
The INLA has officially claimed responsibility for the murder of Derry drug dealer Jim McConnell

http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2009/feb/15/inla-claims-responsibility-for-murder-of-derry-dru/ (http://http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2009/feb/15/inla-claims-responsibility-for-murder-of-derry-dru/)

[IrishWorker]

The INLA has officially claimed responsibility for the murder of Derry drug dealer Jim McConnell

http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2009/feb/15/inla-claims-responsibility-for-murder-of-derry-dru/ (http://http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2009/feb/15/inla-claims-responsibility-for-murder-of-derry-dru/)

Well it just goes to show how little you actually know about the INLA.
This man was killed for using the name of the INLA to collect drug debts as you well know they are a little touchy about things like that.
He was NOT killed for dealing.

[khad]

executing someone who was already due to go to court in front of children, real fucking heroic. a proud moment for the liberation movement, i'm sure.
All the more reason to deserve a bullet in the head. The first thing that scumbag would have done would be to barter his insider knowledge of the community and name names and blackmail victims for the state security services. It's no secret that these drug dealers are valued informants, and some actually live next to the police station because that's the safest place for them.

The graffiti may have been over the top, though. Wouldn't want to telegraph your moves like that.

[Andropov]

The INLA has officially claimed responsibility for the murder of Derry drug dealer Jim McConnell

http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2009/feb/15/inla-claims-responsibility-for-murder-of-derry-dru/ (http://http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2009/feb/15/inla-claims-responsibility-for-murder-of-derry-dru/)
Hahaha served up lovely again for the ill informed clown you are.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Well it just goes to show how little you actually know about the INLA.
This man was killed for using the name of the INLA to collect drug debts as you well know they are a little touchy about things like that.
He was NOT killed for dealing.
I know why he was killed -

Interesting that you seem to think it is a bigger crime to use the INLA's name (in vain) than it is to actually be a drug dealer. I'd actually have more respect for the INLA if they actually shot him for selling drugs - rather than being so touchy about someone using their name.

[Devrim]

Well it just goes to show how little you actually know about the INLA.
This man was killed for using the name of the INLA to collect drug debts as you well know they are a little touchy about things like that.
He was NOT killed for dealing.

I think this shows that despite all of their protestations that they are not involved in dealing drugs the INLA are obviously perceived by people as being at least involved in it, or the threat of the INLA being used to collect debts would just seem absurd.

Devrim

[IrishWorker]

I think this shows that despite all of their protestations that they are not involved in dealing drugs the INLA are obviously perceived by people as being at least involved in it, or the threat of the INLA being used to collect debts would just seem absurd.

Devrim
The threats were issued in a predominantly unionist area around Coleraine by this Jim Mc Connell character who was from Derry city the people of Coleraine would know very little about the INLA only what they would read in the papers Jim Mc Connell would have know this and exploited it probably not expecting to get caught out.
Then he got blasted to death by INLA volunteers whilst cowering in the corner of his living room crying for his mother.
Sad really.

[khad]

I think this shows that despite all of their protestations that they are not involved in dealing drugs the INLA are obviously perceived by people as being at least involved in it, or the threat of the INLA being used to collect debts would just seem absurd.

Devrim
There are people in the United States who think Hitler was a communist (national SOCIALISM). And your point?

[Devrim]

There are people in the United States who think Hitler was a communist (national SOCIALISM). And your point?

My point is despite what you may believe from reading what IRSP people say on these boards, the INLA are believed by many people in Ireland to be deeply involved in organised crime and drug dealing, and not just by people in Coleraine. It is something that you can read written in the press, hear from mainstream republican figures, and see written on the walls in Derry, 'I Rob Shops and Post offices).

Of course, as the Republican Socialists will tell you they are all lies to discredit them. Of course they are not at all involved in drugs and gangsterism.

In which case one wonders why it got to the point last March when they even had to stand down one of their brigades because it was involved in drug dealing and gangsterism.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Then he got blasted to death by INLA volunteers whilst cowering in the corner of his living room crying for his mother.
Sad really.

Oh this is quite shocking Machismo too. What do you expect people to do when they are about to be killed? "Stand up and take it like a man"?

Devrim

[Andropov]

I know why he was killed -

Interesting that you seem to think it is a bigger crime to use the INLA's name (in vain) than it is to actually be a drug dealer. I'd actually have more respect for the INLA if they actually shot him for selling drugs - rather than being so touchy about someone using their name.
No you dont, you clearly coughed up that case as an example of the INLA allegedly killing drug dealers for dealing.
Now you are building strawmen in that he was shot for using the INLAs name "in vain".
You really are a pathetic little shit arent you?
All because you were found out again, how telling.

[Andropov]

My point is despite what you may believe from reading what IRSP people say on these boards, the INLA are believed by many people in Ireland to be deeply involved in organised crime and drug dealing, and not just by people in Coleraine.
This is indeed true.
But what I find is that the class basis for these beliefs is quite telling also.
The majority of the middle and upper class here do hold many misconceptions and generalisations about the INLA.
But then in more working class areas alot of the vitriol and bile directed at the INLA is discounted as the spoof it is.
For example in Coolock they actually call The Sunday World, "The Sunday Spoof" and indeed it is the sunday world which spearheads the propaganda war.

It is something that you can read written in the press, hear from mainstream republican figures, and see written on the walls in Derry, 'I Rob Shops and Post offices).
The INLA reserves the right to rob from Post Offices, Banks and Shops for fund raising purposes.
Unfortunately they do not have the luxury of using income tax levys and the like and must raise funds else where.
Unless you expected the INLA to attack the British Army with bows and arrows it will always be a fact of guerilla warfare.

Of course, as the Republican Socialists will tell you they are all lies to discredit them. Of course they are not at all involved in drugs and gangsterism.
The INLA is not involved in Drug Dealing full stop.

In which case one wonders why it got to the point last March when they even had to stand down one of their brigades because it was involved in drug dealing and gangsterism.
The INLA took action against this individual, I can only presume because he was indeed involved in taxing and extorting Drug Dealers at the very least.
When this was verified by the INLA it seems like he was stood down until further investigations were carried out.
In the time that transpired it turned out he was a government agent as was witnessed by the numerous articles he gave to the press denouncing the INLA and offering to give information on former ops he did in England and else where. He also distanced himself as a member of the INLA publicly in court and said he had left the organisation.
Now Dev I know that the INLA does have a certain imagine among some as being criminals, drug dealers and the like, especially among the middle class in the south.
That is not to say the INLA does not have some unsavoury elements but just as in every organisation, as was pointed out before the INLA are not completely immune to the context they find themselves in. Thus it is only fair not to judge the INLA on the few bad apples but on how the INLA treats those allegations and bad apples and in standing down Duffy it showed that they are not ready to tolerate criminality in their ranks.

[Devrim]

But what I find is that the class basis for these beliefs is quite telling also.
The majority of the middle and upper class here do hold many misconceptions and generalisations about the INLA.
But then in more working class areas alot of the vitriol and bile directed at the INLA is discounted as the spoof it is.
For example in Coolock they actually call The Sunday World, "The Sunday Spoof" and indeed it is the sunday world which spearheads the propaganda war.

I don't want to comment on the South of Ireland as have don't know the country well and have spent very little time there. In the North, however, which I do know reasonably well, I would say that although there are working class people who support the IRSP/INLA, the vast majority of them don't, and they are considered by many to be deeply involved with criminality.


The INLA reserves the right to rob from Post Offices, Banks and Shops for fund raising purposes.
Unfortunately they do not have the luxury of using income tax levys and the like and must raise funds else where.
Unless you expected the INLA to attack the British Army with bows and arrows it will always be a fact of guerilla warfare.

I wasn't commenting on your fund raising tactics here. I was commenting on the fact that in working class communities in Northern Ireland the IRSP/INLA is seen as being involved in criminality. Either that or well-heeled Dublin soliciters and other members of the middle class are driving up to Derry to spray paint things on the walls.

Personally I don't think that armed robbery, or other activities, which the INLA is probably involved in such as smuggling or extortion are the ways for working class organisations to raise funds, not because I have a moral objection to them, but because they invariably end up in criminality.

Nor do I think a nationalist guerilla war has anything to offer the working class.


The INLA is not involved in Drug Dealing full stop.

So are you saying categorically that Declan Duffy was not involved in the Drugs trade in any way? In which case, why was he stood down?

Obviously you are not?


The INLA took action against this individual, I can only presume because he was indeed involved in taxing and extorting Drug Dealers at the very least.
When this was verified by the INLA it seems like he was stood down until further investigations were carried out.

And did this did happen at a time when he was not only a member of the INLA but also O/C of the Dublin brigade?

Yet you still maintain that "[t]he INLA is not involved in Drug Dealing full stop".


In the time that transpired it turned out he was a government agent as was witnessed by the numerous articles he gave to the press denouncing the INLA and offering to give information on former ops he did in England and else where. He also distanced himself as a member of the INLA publicly in court and said he had left the organisation.

Are you claiming that he was a Government agent at the time of his membership?


Now Dev I know that the INLA does have a certain imagine among some as being criminals, drug dealers and the like, especially among the middle class in the south.

And also very much so amongst the working class in the North.


That is not to say the INLA does not have some unsavoury elements but just as in every organisation, as was pointed out before the INLA are not completely immune to the context they find themselves in. Thus it is only fair not to judge the INLA on the few bad apples

I think the mode of this organisation invariably leads to this. It is not just a question of 'a few bad apples'.


Thus it is only fair not to judge the INLA on the few bad apples but on how the INLA treats those allegations and bad apples and in standing down Duffy it showed that they are not ready to tolerate criminality in their ranks.

How long did this sort of behaviour go on before he was stood down? Is it not possible that it was not just that he was a gangster, but the fact that he was a high profile gangster and everybody knew it to the point where he was completely discrediting the INLA, which may have caused this.

Devrim

[Jolly Red Giant]

No you dont, you clearly coughed up that case as an example of the INLA allegedly killing drug dealers for dealing.
Now you are building strawmen in that he was shot for using the INLAs name "in vain".
You really are a pathetic little shit arent you?
All because you were found out again, how telling.
If you read the article that I linked to you will see at the start that it states he was killed for using the INLA's name to collect drug debts. I left that bit out on purpose to see the usual complete over-the-top reaction from the nutjobs on here who think that the INLA was/is somehow a progressive force.

[Jolly Red Giant]

For example in Coolock
A hotbed of INLA activism if ever there was one.


The INLA reserves the right to rob from Post Offices, Banks and Shops for fund raising purposes.
And shoot people in the process.


Unfortunately they do not have the luxury of using income tax levys and the like and must raise funds else where.
Perhaps like other left organisation you could go out and raise it by getting donations from working class people - not as sexy of course - and you would ahve to actually justify what you do.


Unless you expected the INLA to attack the British Army with bows and arrows it will always be a fact of guerilla warfare.
You might as well be using bows and arrows for all the good the INLA did.



The INLA took action against this individual, I can only presume because he was indeed involved in taxing and extorting Drug Dealers at the very least.
When this was verified by the INLA it seems like he was stood down until further investigations were carried out.
In the time that transpired it turned out he was a government agent as was witnessed by the numerous articles he gave to the press denouncing the INLA and offering to give information on former ops he did in England and else where. He also distanced himself as a member of the INLA publicly in court and said he had left the organisation.
Now Dev I know that the INLA does have a certain imagine among some as being criminals, drug dealers and the like, especially among the middle class in the south.
Excuses, excuses, excuses - and throw in the old 'middle-class' slur for good effect.


That is not to say the INLA does not have some unsavoury elements but just as in every organisation, as was pointed out before the INLA are not completely immune to the context they find themselves in.
Nature of the beast - individual terror will always attract nut-jobs.


Thus it is only fair not to judge the INLA on the few bad apples but on how the INLA treats those allegations and bad apples
Of course - just shoot them - summary justice - irrespective of the fact that it is inherent in paramilitary organisations that these individuals will be attracted. It's really a bit like the Taliban chopping off hands as punishment - create a situation where people will go against the rules and then punish them for doing it.

[Andropov]

I don't want to comment on the South of Ireland as have don't know the country well and have spent very little time there. In the North, however, which I do know reasonably well, I would say that although there are working class people who support the IRSP/INLA, the vast majority of them don't, and they are considered by many to be deeply involved with criminality.
I would not say the vast majority of working class people in the North dont support the IRSM.
In fact you will find overwhelming support for the IRSM in working class areas, the likes of Ardoyne, Short Strand, Andytown etc.
Granted there are working class areas which the IRSP/INLA has not had a large support base, like traditionally in West Belfast they were always alot weaker than the Provos for support but in recent years support there ahs been growing with the Provos gradually taking on the old SDLP demographic.
The same would be the case in Derry where traditionally the old working class IRSM hearlands of Galliagh and Shantallow have always been hotbeds of support but now the IRSM is indeed increasing support in the likes of the old Provo heartlands of the bog and the creggan.
Yes we dont have the majority of working class support but we do have some massive support in working class areas and you know this so I dont see why you feel the need to totally misrepresent the case here.
Are any of the areas I have mentioned not working class or indeed hostile to the alleged "criminality" of the IRSM?

I wasn't commenting on your fund raising tactics here. I was commenting on the fact that in working class communities in Northern Ireland the IRSP/INLA is seen as being involved in criminality.
As I pointed out before that is largely seen as bogus by the majority of working class people in Belfast and Derry, the IRSM may not have its majority working class support but it certainly has the respect of the majority of these working class communities.

Either that or well-heeled Dublin soliciters and other members of the middle class are driving up to Derry to spray paint things on the walls.
Ohh please, the IRSM and the PIRA have been spray painting slogans about each others respective organisations for decades, it proves nothing only that the IRSM does have hostility directed at it by the PIRA.

Personally I don't think that armed robbery, or other activities, which the INLA is probably involved in such as smuggling or extortion are the ways for working class organisations to raise funds, not because I have a moral objection to them, but because they invariably end up in criminality.
Not at all, I think that is a major leap in your trail of logic that is not substantiated. Granted that you will give isolated incidents of which some will always occur but until you can systematically prove that involvement in such fund raising activities will invaribly lead to criminality on a whole structural level then it can be dismissed as the speculation it is.

Nor do I think a nationalist guerilla war has anything to offer the working class.
Good, because I also believe a Nationalist Guerrilla war has nothing to offer the working class, hence why the INLA never carried out a Nationalist guerrilla war. If you want we can go at the whole National Liberation debate again Dev, I have no problem just it seems like we will just be rakeing over old ground again.

So are you saying categorically that Declan Duffy was not involved in the Drugs trade in any way? In which case, why was he stood down?
Obviously you are not?
And did this did happen at a time when he was not only a member of the INLA but also O/C of the Dublin brigade?
Yet you still maintain that "[t]he INLA is not involved in Drug Dealing full stop".
Dev I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not purposefully distorting my post or purposefully misinterpreting it cause I respect you as a poster.
Duffy was involved in Drugs and criminality, there is no doubt to that.
But he was involved on a personal level, the INLA was never involved hence why I stated that the INLA is not involved in drugs categorically.
Im not trying to sweep over the crimes of Duffy im just stating that to say the INLA as an organisation was involved is clearly being insencere.

Are you claiming that he was a Government agent at the time of his membership?
I dont know the full details for obvious reasons but it would seem that way that while OC of the Dublin Brigade he was indeed a paid government agent.
Like I said with the evidence that has come to light since it would confirm this with some fairly questionable interviews in the press, offering to give information on former OPs and comrades, publicly distancing himself from the INLA and the much rejuiced sentence he got in court.

And also very much so amongst the working class in the North.
This is blatantly unture.

I think the mode of this organisation invariably leads to this. It is not just a question of 'a few bad apples'.
Of course you do.
But its not what you think its what you can analytically prove as a Marxist and until you can prove that the organisation as a whole has caved into a decrepit drug dealing gang and not just a few isolated individuals then your arguement does not stand up against scrutiny im afraid.

How long did this sort of behaviour go on before he was stood down? Is it not possible that it was not just that he was a gangster, but the fact that he was a high profile gangster and everybody knew it to the point where he was completely discrediting the INLA, which may have caused this.
Dev I agree with you completely that the INLA were too slow in acting against Duffys criminality.
It turned into a farce in Dublin to tell you the truth and it will take a long time for the IRSM to recover from it in Dublin, there is no doubt about that.
I can understand why they were reluctant to believe and act upon the allegations against Duffy since there was alot of respect for him among comrades since he was in the INLA since he was 16 or something and basically gave his life to the movement and thus given the benefit of the doubt.
But still what was let go on in Dublin was really scandelous, it was left for far too long before action was taken and for this I feel sorry because I know alot of very good men in Dublin IRSP who have gave their lives to the cause and are now generally treated like pariahs in Dublin and they do not deserve it. They are stand up guys who are not criminals. For example one of the more elderly members of Dublin IRSP is actually a Drugs councillor and works with inner city cases and wass at the coal mouth of the heroin epidemic in Dublin and yet he is somehow labeled a Drug dealer because of his assosciation with Duffy. Its sad all round.

[Andropov]

If you read the article that I linked to you will see at the start that it states he was killed for using the INLA's name to collect drug debts. I left that bit out on purpose to see the usual complete over-the-top reaction from the nutjobs on here who think that the INLA was/is somehow a progressive force.
Wow nice attempt at some smoke and mirrors.
Let me sumarise what exactly happened here.
Irishworker wrote this....

I think you will find the INLA never killed anyone for selling drugs mo chara.
You then countered that post with this....

The INLA has officially claimed responsibility for the murder of Derry drug dealer Jim McConnell

http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2009/feb/15/inla-claims-responsibility-for-murder-of-derry-dru/ (http://www.anonym.to/?http://http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2009/feb/15/inla-claims-responsibility-for-murder-of-derry-dru/)
And now you are claiming you just threw the cat among the pigeons so to speak to see some "over reactions" of people who "see the INLA as a progressive force".
You are a wormy little shit arent you, having to fob off your own ill information as a "ohh I had you going there" scenario.
Now if you have a problem with people seeing the INLA as a progressive force please attack it with some analytical marxism and I will listen and indeed I may even gain some respect for you but until then we can continously dismiss your posts as the inane subjective drivel they are.

[Andropov]

A hotbed of INLA activism if ever there was one.
What does this mean exactly dear?

And shoot people in the process.
Example please?

Perhaps like other left organisation you could go out and raise it by getting donations from working class people - not as sexy of course - and you would ahve to actually justify what you do.
Donations for weapons?
What world exactly do you live in you clown?
This is cringe worthy stuff.
You do realise that the Sticks had whole election campaigns paid for my such fund raising activities carried out by the OIRA. Indeed they are still active and still refered to as the fund raising department to this day?
But then I suppose to know that you would actually have to have some knowledge of what you are a talking about.

You might as well be using bows and arrows for all the good the INLA did.
Yes a typically ill educated post with little to no material marxist backing to it.
What ever you say about the PIRA and the INLA's armed campaign at least it brought a degree of equal rights to the people of Ireland, far from the Socialist Republic we were striving for and continue to strive for but it did achieve that, something that trendy left petty-bourgeois critics such of yourself cant take away from them.

Excuses, excuses, excuses - and throw in the old 'middle-class' slur for good effect.
Yet again little to no contribution to the debate what so ever.
Seriously try and provide a Marxist crtique of my post and tackle it constuctively in a productive way instead of just writing "excuses, excuses, excuses" which is the debating equivilant of turning on your heel and running away. Look at Dev for example, I dont agree with alot of his opinions but at least he is capable of formulating a cohesive arguement with some Marxism. But you just write sensationalist anecdotes combined with subjective interpretations that are neither here nor there and are totally irrelevant in an educated debate.

Nature of the beast - individual terror will always attract nut-jobs.
Individual terror?
Typical trendy Irish trot answer.
Look my dear chum, when the SP's policies can get 100,000 people on the streets of Belfast then I will listen but until that day I think we can fob off your empty rehtorric as being just that.

Of course - just shoot them - summary justice - irrespective of the fact that it is inherent in paramilitary organisations that these individuals will be attracted.
Firstly there is nothing "nutjob" about Duffy.
It was just pure corruption and self interest that made him who he was.
Secondly Duffy was not shot so that point is redundant.
And Thirdly these alleged "nutjobs" who you seem to think find paramilitary structures a haven for shows quite clearly your complete lack analytical analysis of these paramilitary structures and the efficency at which they operated. These paramilitary organisations must have been efficient and indeed effective if they were able to fight Britain to a stalemate. To think that they were comprised of gun totting maniacs is just pure Daily Mail fantacy and really quite immature when you analytically analyse these structures.

It's really a bit like the Taliban chopping off hands as punishment - create a situation where people will go against the rules and then punish them for doing it.
Your assertion that paramilitary structures create this situation has been dismissed out of hand so that conclusion is redundant and fails like the rest of your idiotic arguement.

[Jolly Red Giant]

You are a wormy little shit arent you, having to fob off your own ill information as a "ohh I had you going there" scenario.
I do have a giggle or two are the constant stream of insults.


Now if you have a problem with people seeing the INLA as a progressive force please attack it with some analytical marxism and I will listen and indeed I may even gain some respect for you but until then we can continously dismiss your posts as the inane subjective drivel they are.
I may when I have time and I am in the mood deal with issues that have been addressed with time and time again - the problem of course is that when analytical marxism is shown clearing to demonstrate that the political outlook of the IRSM is off the charts - it is promptly ignored and the response decends into name calling like the above.



What does this mean exactly dear?
You brought up Coolock not me -


Example please?
A cop named Patrick Reynolds was shot dead during an INLA robbery in Tallaght in February 1982.

Another cop named Patrick Morrissey: shot dead by the INLA men after arobbery in Co Louth, in June 1985.


Donations for weapons?
What world exactly do you live in you clown?
This is cringe worthy stuff.
If you had any real belief that working class people would support the armed struggle then you would be willing to go and ask them to provide financial assistance for it - I understand you can get a Kalashnikov for about 200 quid these days - not exactly a fortune.


You do realise that the Sticks had whole election campaigns paid for my such fund raising activities carried out by the OIRA. Indeed they are still active and still refered to as the fund raising department to this day?
So because the OIRA did/do it - you follow suit - good idea - coat-tailing the stickies.


But then I suppose to know that you would actually have to have some knowledge of what you are a talking about.
oh forshame - my feelings are hurt - Oh hang on a minute - you jest :cool:



What ever you say about the PIRA and the INLA's armed campaign at least it brought a degree of equal rights to the people of Ireland, far from the Socialist Republic we were striving for and continue to strive for but it did achieve that, something that trendy left petty-bourgeois critics such of yourself cant take away from them.
The armed struggle brought nothing but repression by the British state and increased loyalist hostility that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of innocent civilians.


Look at Dev for example, I dont agree with alot of his opinions but at least he is capable of formulating a cohesive arguement with some Marxism.
I agree - far more coherent than I am - I suspect he has not had to put up with this nonsense for thirty years - if he had I suspect he might be slightly less tolerant.



Look my dear chum, when the SP's policies can get 100,000 people on the streets of Belfast then I will listen but until that day I think we can fob off your empty rehtorric as being just that.
Of course the IRSM have widespread support among the nationalist community in the North and can get the throngs onto the streets at a moments notice.



And Thirdly these alleged "nutjobs" who you seem to think find paramilitary structures a haven for shows quite clearly your complete lack analytical analysis of these paramilitary structures and the efficency at which they operated.
All of the people that I know that are/were involved in paramilitary organisations (and there are quite a few) are what could politely be described as 'being a few fries short of a happy meal'. It is clear that there are some very intelligent individuals who have been paramilitaries - and I never claimed otherwise - but paramilitarism does attract some individuals as described above.


These paramilitary organisations must have been efficient and indeed effective if they were able to fight Britain to a stalemate.
Three points here -
1. I was always told that the objective of the 'armed struggle' was not to fight the Brits to a stalemate but to drive them out of the country. maybe you could enlighten me as to when this strategy changed.
2. Republican paramilitaries did not fight the Brits to a stalemate - the Brits fought republican paramilitaries to a stalemate - that was their strategy. The Brits knew they couldn't defeat republicanism and they were happy to achieve 'an acceptable level of violence' - when paramilitaries up the ante - so did the Brits. Given the way things have panned out are you suggesting that republicans have achieved their objective after 30 years of 'armed struggle' - or have the Brits ?
3. Paramilitary organisations have at different times been riddled with informants, individuals have engaged in criminal activity (like the individual you mention above) and have engaged in down-right despicable behaviour - an example that comes to mind is the murder of Robert McCartney but there are many more.

[IrishWorker]

A good dissection Andropov of jollys inept attempts at slurs on the movement.

The IRSM has correctly analyzed the political situation in Ireland for over 30 years and are steadfast in our beliefs that the struggle to remove partition and the class war are one in the same.
During the war the INLA punched well above its weight attacking the heart of British Imperialism at Westminster attacking NATO installations in Ireland on the orders of Moscow taking out commanders of the Loyalist paramilitary’s killing British soilders killing UDR RUC men destroying commercial heartlands the list goes on fighting overwhelming odds in the struggle for National Liberation.
Our movement has been militarily attacked by the OIRA ,the British Empire, IPLO, GHQ faction(traitors), PIRA, Irish Free State government and mainland European intelligence agencies.
Nobody is trying to say the INLA didn’t make mistakes as they did and this was reiterated in its ceasefire statement in 1998

From the INLA cease-fire declaration
22 August 1998
Now we turn to the consequences of our part in the war. We acknowledge and admit faults and grievous errors in our prosecution of the war. Innocent people were and injured and at times our actions as a liberation army fell far short of what they should have been. For this we as Republicans, as Socialists and as Revolutionaries do offer a sincere, heartfelt and genuine apology. It was never our intention, desire or wish to become embroiled in sectarian or internecine warfare. We accept responsibility for our part in actions that hindered the struggle. Those actions should never have happened.
http://irsm.org/statements/inla/980822.html

After nearly 25 years of war with our political leadership systematically assassinated countless membership interned 3 members of our movement dying on hunger strike we are still here today in 2010 growing agitating and evolving using our Republican Socialist politics as our most potent weapon against the oppression of the Irish Working class.

[Andropov]

I do have a giggle or two are the constant stream of insults.
Well its good I could replicate some humour from your inane drivel.

I may when I have time and I am in the mood deal with issues that have been addressed with time and time again - the problem of course is that when analytical marxism is shown clearing to demonstrate that the political outlook of the IRSM is off the charts - it is promptly ignored and the response decends into name calling like the above.
Well more complete and utter baseless accusations with zero factual evidence to substantiate taht claim much like the majority of your arguement.
In fact I do remember that when you were called out on your distinct lack of Marxist understanding you actually didnt even respond, the silence was almost as damning as your ill educated posts here.

You brought up Coolock not me -
In referance to what the locals refer to the Sunday World as.
You then posted this.....

A hotbed of INLA activism if ever there was one.
Now this is blatantly different to the post I made in referance to Coolock and the Sunday World.
Now if it isnt too much to ask could you please expand on that post you made and explain to me what you ment?

A cop named Patrick Reynolds was shot dead during an INLA robbery in Tallaght in February 1982.
Another cop named Patrick Morrissey: shot dead by the INLA men after arobbery in Co Louth, in June 1985.
Ohh right cops.
My heart bleeds.

If you had any real belief that working class people would support the armed struggle then you would be willing to go and ask them to provide financial assistance for it
Yet again more ill educated inane drivel.
Most posters here have at least an elementary grasp of Socialism and Marxism and yet again you are showing yourself up to be a fool.
To say we should be holding collections for weapons is just absurd.
Not only would it send working class people to jail for small donations but it is also not feasable to hold collections for weaponry.
This most posters could comprehend but yet again you show yourself up with this idiotic post.

- I understand you can get a Kalashnikov for about 200 quid these days - not exactly a fortune.
Name dropping again?
Trying to impress the teenagers with your "street cred".
Back in your box.

So because the OIRA did/do it - you follow suit - good idea - coat-tailing the stickies.
Another pathetic attempt at misinterpreting my post.
You clearly stated this in your post.....

Perhaps like other left organisation you could go out and raise it by getting donations from working class people
And I gave an example of how it is indeed not universal to expect the working class to fund your donations.
Anyway your dragging me away from a Marxist line in this, basically you were attacking the INLA for using fund raising tactics by robbing shops, post offices, banks etc.
Now this arguement is devoid of Marxist logic in that you claim its done because its "sexy" etc. When in reality it is done because these are capitalist institutions that have accumulated their wealth through the exploitation of the workers and thus robbing these institutions is far from being amoral or anti-Marxist, it is a genuine revenue source.

oh forshame - my feelings are hurt - Oh hang on a minute - you jest
No not really.
You were yet again shown up to be an ill educated clown, boo hoo.

The armed struggle brought nothing but repression by the British state and increased loyalist hostility that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of innocent civilians.
Wow what a specacular failure of analysing the context as a Marxist.
Whether you like it or not the PIRA and INLA's armed campaigns made the Ulster Statelet unviable in its then current context and thus forced the British to concede the most basic of concessions to the people of Ireland.
To white wash the whole war as nothing but state repression and civilian deaths is just a gross miscalculationa nd deliberate distortion of historical fact to suite your petty bourgeois trendy left perspective.

I agree - far more coherent than I am - I suspect he has not had to put up with this nonsense for thirty years - if he had I suspect he might be slightly less tolerant.
Shown up to be an ill educated fool yet again JRG.
Dev has lived in Ireland.

Of course the IRSM have widespread support among the nationalist community in the North and can get the throngs onto the streets at a moments notice.
Can I detect a wee bit of sarcasm there?
Obviously you wont believe me because you value The Sunday World as your point of referance so I suggest you yourself go to the likes of Galliagh, Shantallow, Strabane, Ardoyne, Andytown, Short Strand etc and see this support for yourself.

All of the people that I know that are/were involved in paramilitary organisations (and there are quite a few) are what could politely be described as 'being a few fries short of a happy meal'. It is clear that there are some very intelligent individuals who have been paramilitaries - and I never claimed otherwise - but paramilitarism does attract some individuals as described above.
Your pathetic need to name drop in threads merely highlights your own distance from anyone remotely involved in paramilitary activity.
Anyway this is yet again more subjective conjecture without any facutal evidence or Material Marxist analysis and so yet again irrelevant and fails.
Please stop feeling the need to name drop to impress the teenagers, its just not cool.

Three points here -
1. I was always told that the objective of the 'armed struggle' was not to fight the Brits to a stalemate but to drive them out of the country. maybe you could enlighten me as to when this strategy changed.
Sorry could you provide a link to where I said the objective of armed struggle was to fight the Brits to a stalemate?

2. Republican paramilitaries did not fight the Brits to a stalemate - the Brits fought republican paramilitaries to a stalemate - that was their strategy. The Brits knew they couldn't defeat republicanism and they were happy to achieve 'an acceptable level of violence' - when paramilitaries up the ante - so did the Brits. Given the way things have panned out are you suggesting that republicans have achieved their objective after 30 years of 'armed struggle' - or have the Brits ?
You are yet again misinterpreting my point deliberatley.
I am not for a second claiming the GFA was some sort of success story for the politics of National Liberation.
My only point was that even though the goals of National Liberation have not been achieved at least they did achieve some form of greater social equality for the people of Ireland.
That was my point so stop distorting it for your own weak arguement.

3. Paramilitary organisations have at different times been riddled with informants, individuals have engaged in criminal activity (like the individual you mention above) and have engaged in down-right despicable behaviour - an example that comes to mind is the murder of Robert McCartney but there are many more.
All isolated incidents in over three decades of war fare that are all isolated incidents in a context of war.
Just as isolated incidents occured in the Spanish Civil War from the Republican side that were despicable it does not condemn the whole movement or even condemn their politics it merely means that these organisations are not completely immune to their social context and the sometimes unsavoury characters who are born out of these said contexts.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I try to refrain from too much inane drivel


Ohh right cops.
My heart bleeds.
I am sure it does - quick question - are cops people? - if yes - I have provide the evidence requested - if no - I suggest you pay your science teacher a visit.



Obviously you wont believe me because you value The Sunday World as your point of referance so I suggest you yourself go to the likes of

Galliagh,
Never been there

Shantallow,
nor there

Strabane,
Been there

Ardoyne,
and there

Andytown,
and there

Short Strand
and there also

and see this support for yourself.
Never found any evidence of support anywhere except in the Ardoyne where a couple of people said they knew an INLA man who they thought was a decent skin.


Your pathetic need to name drop in threads merely highlights your own distance from anyone remotely involved in paramilitary activity.
If only that were the case - unfortunately where I live they are ten a penny - bit of a pain really because everyone is expected to tip their hat to them



Please stop feeling the need to name drop to impress the teenagers, its just not cool.
You mean there are teenagers on this site - you're not one are you - though it could explain your immature and impulsive nature.



My only point was that even though the goals of National Liberation have not been achieved at least they did achieve some form of greater social equality for the people of Ireland.
Please give a single example of any achievement of social equality that has resulted from the 'armed struggle'


All isolated incidents in over three decades of war fare that are all isolated incidents in a context of war.
I am sure the McCartney family will be comforted by the knowledge that Robert's murder was an 'isolated incident' (really good term that).


Just as isolated incidents occured in the Spanish Civil War from the Republican side that were despicable it does not condemn the whole movement or even condemn their politics it merely means that these organisations are not completely immune to their social context and the sometimes unsavoury characters who are born out of these said contexts.
If you are actually attempting to equate a revolutionary movement involving millions of people and engaged in a war with the forces of fascism - with a couple of small urban guerilla organisations engaged in acts of individual terror then your seriously have little understanding of Marxism.

[Soldier of life]

I won't shed a tear for this scumbag, but tbh the RIRA and 32csm have little to nothing to offer the working class of Ireland, they are a bit of a joke politically I'm afraid and I'm quite glad the unity forum has been put on ice.

[Devrim]

I would not say the vast majority of working class people in the North dont support the IRSM.
In fact you will find overwhelming support for the IRSM in working class areas, the likes of Ardoyne, Short Strand, Andytown etc.
Granted there are working class areas which the IRSP/INLA has not had a large support base, like traditionally in West Belfast they were always alot weaker than the Provos for support but in recent years support there ahs been growing with the Provos gradually taking on the old SDLP demographic.
The same would be the case in Derry where traditionally the old working class IRSM hearlands of Galliagh and Shantallow have always been hotbeds of support but now the IRSM is indeed increasing support in the likes of the old Provo heartlands of the bog and the creggan.
Yes we dont have the majority of working class support but we do have some massive support in working class areas and you know this so I dont see why you feel the need to totally misrepresent the case here.
Are any of the areas I have mentioned not working class or indeed hostile to the alleged "criminality" of the IRSM?

As I pointed out before that is largely seen as bogus by the majority of working class people in Belfast and Derry, the IRSM may not have its majority working class support but it certainly has the respect of the majority of these working class communities.

I read this is almost absolute disbelief. The first thing is that you contradict yourself completely, first in saying at the start that:


I would not say the vast majority of working class people in the North dont support the IRSM.

and then when continuing the discussion you state:


Yes we dont have the majority of working class support but we do have some massive support in working class areas and you know this so I dont see why you feel the need to totally misrepresent the case here.

and:


the IRSM may not have its majority working class support

Then, if we just take a look at a few figures; The population of Northern Ireland is 1,685,267 (2001 census) of this 43.8% come from a Catholic background (2001 census). The electorate at the last assembly election was 1,107,904 (only 62.31% turned out to vote, but it is the total electorate that is relevant to this discussion). If we take the proportion of those from a catholic background amongst those of voting age to be equal to that in the general population, that would give us 485,261 adults from a catholic background. Of these 285,737 (i.e. 59% of the 'catholic' electorate, not those who voted) voted for SF or the SDLP.

The working class are obviously the vast majority of society. I don't see how the IRSP, could have majority support amongst the working class when nearly two thirds of all adults from a catholic background actually bother to go out and vote for the two main parties.

There are areas where the IRSP has significant levels of support. In a way that is unimaginable with, for example, the English left parties. I don't think in those areas they have majority support though, and to think otherwise is really to massively overestimate your own support.



I was commenting on the fact that in working class communities in Northern Ireland the IRSP/INLA is seen as being involved in criminality.As I pointed out before that is largely seen as bogus by the majority of working class people in Belfast and Derry, the IRSM may not have its majority working class support but it certainly has the respect of the majority of these working class communities.

Here we are down to anecdotal evidence. That may be your impression, but certainly isn't the impression that I pick up when I am there or when talking to people from Northern Ireland.



Personally I don't think that armed robbery, or other activities, which the INLA is probably involved in such as smuggling or extortion are the ways for working class organisations to raise funds, not because I have a moral objection to them, but because they invariably end up in criminality.Not at all, I think that is a major leap in your trail of logic that is not substantiated. Granted that you will give isolated incidents of which some will always occur but until you can systematically prove that involvement in such fund raising activities will invaribly lead to criminality on a whole structural level then it can be dismissed as the speculation it is.


But its not what you think its what you can analytically prove as a Marxist and until you can prove that the organisation as a whole has caved into a decrepit drug dealing gang and not just a few isolated individuals then your arguement does not stand up against scrutiny im afraid.

So you are saying that these sort of incidents 'will always' occur. I think that proves my point. I am not saying that the 'whole structural level' will turn into a gang although that can and has happened. Undoubtedly there are people within these sort of organisations who sincerely believe that they are fighting for the working class, and must be disgusted at their organisation being associated with the type of gangsterism that invariably emerges. That doesn't mean that this sort of illegality does not have a tendency to descend into gangsterism. It is not about 'bad apples', but about a situation which causes them to rot.


Dev I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not purposefully distorting my post or purposefully misinterpreting it cause I respect you as a poster.
Duffy was involved in Drugs and criminality, there is no doubt to that.
But he was involved on a personal level, the INLA was never involved hence why I stated that the INLA is not involved in drugs categorically.
Im not trying to sweep over the crimes of Duffy im just stating that to say the INLA as an organisation was involved is clearly being insencere.

What does 'on a personal level' mean? To be honest it reminds me of the sort of anarchism, where people are completely free to contradict the politics of their own organisation, when speaking in a 'personal capacity'.

So Duffy was the O/C of the Dublin brigade, but he just dealt drugs in his spare time on a personal level. I suppose he ran his private security business 'on a personal level' too, and the fact that he was a ganster, who was the O/C of what at the time was probably the biggest INLA brigade had nothing to do with where his muscle came from? I suppose the murderous feuds that the INLA in Dublin fought with other gangs were all about politics, and Duffy's activities 'on a personal level' had nothing to do with any of them.


I dont know the full details for obvious reasons but it would seem that way that while OC of the Dublin Brigade he was indeed a paid government agent.
Like I said with the evidence that has come to light since it would confirm this with some fairly questionable interviews in the press, offering to give information on former OPs and comrades, publicly distancing himself from the INLA and the much rejuiced sentence he got in court.

Nothing of this shows that he was a paid government agent. You might infer it, but I would just presume he is a gangster turned stool pigeon to protect his own skin. Unless there is any evidence of him being a state agent that seems more likely to me.


Dev I agree with you completely that the INLA were too slow in acting against Duffys criminality.
It turned into a farce in Dublin to tell you the truth and it will take a long time for the IRSM to recover from it in Dublin, there is no doubt about that.

Too slow seems to be a bit of an understatement. To most interested observers it was obvious that there was something deeply wrong going on even before the 'Ballymount incident', which I will refrain from calling the 'Ballymount Bloodbath'* as the worst sections of the popular press do, in 1999. That this guy was O/C ten years later is more than a little slow.


I feel sorry because I know alot of very good men in Dublin IRSP who have gave their lives to the cause and are now generally treated like pariahs in Dublin and they do not deserve it. They are stand up guys who are not criminals. For example one of the more elderly members of Dublin IRSP is actually a Drugs councillor and works with inner city cases and wass at the coal mouth of the heroin epidemic in Dublin and yet he is somehow labeled a Drug dealer because of his assosciation with Duffy. Its sad all round.

On a personal human level I feel sorry for these people too. It must be terrible for them to have all they have fought to build destroyed and discredited. I can remember my grandfather, who had been a communist since just after the Russian revolution crying into his beer as we watched the failure of the coup in Russia in 1991 in the pub. It must have been absolutely sole destroying for him to realise that it was all over after having spent his whole adult life dedicated to to what he saw as the cause of the working class.

That doesn't mean that Stalinism wasn't a viscous anti-working class form of capitalism though.

Devrim

*Maybe you should explain what happened to posters who aren't familiar with it.

[Andropov]

I try to refrain from too much inane drivel
Obviously not since your whole basis of arguement is comprised of subjective anecdotes with little to no material marxist understanding to either back up or verify your assertions.

I am sure it does - quick question - are cops people? - if yes - I have provide the evidence requested - if no - I suggest you pay your science teacher a visit.Yet another shining example of your lack of amrxist understanding.
Cops are the armed wing of the capitalist bourgeois class sued to subdue the working class in times if class strife.
Hence why I do not shed a tear over their untimely demise.
Also I like your liberal stand point on this that apparently cops are just "people", totally redundant point and one that a Marxist would not even comprehend making.
But we have long established you are not a Marxist.

Never been there

nor there

Been there

and there

and there

and there also

Never found any evidence of support anywhere except in the Ardoyne where a couple of people said they knew an INLA man who they thought was a decent skin.Haha name dropping again?
Just decided to have a casual chat about "the local INLA man".
Heres an honest question for you, do you actually think anyone believes these fantacys of yours?

If only that were the case - unfortunately where I live they are ten a penny - bit of a pain really because everyone is expected to tip their hat to themYour delusions have no bounds really.
Would you like to share with the forum your current employment so that people actually know how distant you are from any such activity or people?

You mean there are teenagers on this site - you're not one are you - though it could explain your immature and impulsive nature.Maybe I do have an immature and impulsive nature, thats for the membership of this forum to decide upon.
But even though I may have those characteristics at least I have an understanding of Marxism and dont feel the need to name drop like some teenage delinquint.
Its quite pathetic really.

Please give a single example of any achievement of social equality that has resulted from the 'armed struggle'Thats blatantly obvious.
The removal of Gerry Mandering, the greater equality with regaurds housing and employment.
Obviously we are still light years away from our political goals but it has achieved some degree of equality for the people of Ireland.

I am sure the McCartney family will be comforted by the knowledge that Robert's murder was an 'isolated incident' (really good term that)Yet more subjective drivel with a wholey emotive point.
Completely redundant point and yet again showing up your own gapeing inadequacies with regaurds your Marxist understanding.

If you are actually attempting to equate a revolutionary movement involving millions of people and engaged in a war with the forces of fascismYou see this is where the trendy left trots like you fall down in Ireland.
Your critical Marxist analysis of Loyalism as the pro-imperialist quasi-facism that it is.
Make no mistake about it the people of Ireland were at war with the facism of the Loyalist statelet and to categorise it as merely a "sectarian conflict" is to white wash the reactionary nature of Loyalism.
One fo the major recent events in the past decade is how Loyalism has now turned its ugly head away from the Nationalist communtiy to a certain extent and now directing their racial supremacy at the new foreign immigrants in Loyalist niegbourhoods.

with a couple of small urban guerilla organisations engaged in acts of individual terror then your seriously have little understanding of Marxism.
These guerilla groups did indeed have small membership, as was the nature of the war of attrition in Northern Ireland but that is not to ignore the wide support base they held in Nationalist Communitys.
Either way that argument is redundant since I was making the comparison between your point on isolated incidents being olled out of the material context and used to condemn whole movements but then that is from a Marxist perspective, something you ahve evidently shown you are incapable of grasping.

[Andropov]

I read this is almost absolute disbelief. The first thing is that you contradict yourself completely, first in saying at the start that:
and then when continuing the discussion you state:
and:
I was making referance to its over whelming support in the areas I have mentioned.
But im not claiming that it has majority support of the working class in Northern Ireland.

Then, if we just take a look at a few figures; The population of Northern Ireland is 1,685,267 (2001 census) of this 43.8% come from a Catholic background (2001 census). The electorate at the last assembly election was 1,107,904 (only 62.31% turned out to vote, but it is the total electorate that is relevant to this discussion). If we take the proportion of those from a catholic background amongst those of voting age to be equal to that in the general population, that would give us 485,261 adults from a catholic background. Of these 285,737 (i.e. 59% of the 'catholic' electorate, not those who voted) voted for SF or the SDLP.
As I pointed out I was merely making referance to the areas I have listed.
In those areas the IRSM enjoys massive popular support but outside of them they are very weak such as in rural areas and then the likes of Newry, Lurgan, Craigavon, Ballymena, Larne etc.
Not to mention in rural areas where the IRSM has never had a presence.

The working class are obviously the vast majority of society. I don't see how the IRSP, could have majority support amongst the working class when nearly two thirds of all adults from a catholic background actually bother to go out and vote for the two main parties.
I wasnt claiming that the IRSM have majority working class support, thats just bonkers.
I was claiming that in the areas I have mentioned they enjoy massive public support.

There are areas where the IRSP has significant levels of support. In a way that is unimaginable with, for example, the English left parties. I don't think in those areas they have majority support though, and to think otherwise is really to massively overestimate your own support.
FFS I wasnt claiming that.
Hence why I stated numerous times we do not have majority working class support.
Granted that one post I made could have been frazed better but its not like I would repeatedly say we dont have majority working class support and then in the same thread claim we have majority working class support.
I just frazed that post innacurately.

Here we are down to anecdotal evidence. That may be your impression, but certainly isn't the impression that I pick up when I am there or when talking to people from Northern Ireland.
Indeed.

So you are saying that these sort of incidents 'will always' occur.
Obviously with the given material context in which Ireland foinds itself these cases are inevitable.

I think that proves my point. I am not saying that the 'whole structural level' will turn into a gang although that can and has happened.
But surely Dev the point that the very being of a paramilitary strcture leads to criminality among individuals surely it is a logical assumption that the whole organisation would eventually be subsumed by criminality since its membership as individuals gradually become more subsumed by criminality.
This has yet to be the case with the INLA.

Undoubtedly there are people within these sort of organisations who sincerely believe that they are fighting for the working class, and must be disgusted at their organisation being associated with the type of gangsterism that invariably emerges.
It emerges because of the social context not because of the presence of paramilitarys.

That doesn't mean that this sort of illegality does not have a tendency to descend into gangsterism. It is not about 'bad apples', but about a situation which causes them to rot.
As I pointed out above it has got nothing to do with paramilitarys it merely means these paramilitarys exist in a social context of which some criminality exists and thus some will infiltrate paramilitary strctures. Its got little to nothing to do with paramilitarys and everything to do with the social context of Ireland.

What does 'on a personal level' mean? To be honest it reminds me of the sort of anarchism, where people are completely free to contradict the politics of their own organisation, when speaking in a 'personal capacity'.
I mean it was not sanctioned or given the go ahead by the leadership of the INLA.
I mean his criminality was conducted as a private enterprise of which he exploited certain resources at his control.
But to claim that the INLA was behind his activity is just a distortion of the truth.

So Duffy was the O/C of the Dublin brigade, but he just dealt drugs in his spare time on a personal level. I suppose he ran his private security business 'on a personal level' too, and the fact that he was a ganster, who was the O/C of what at the time was probably the biggest INLA brigade had nothing to do with where his muscle came from? I suppose the murderous feuds that the INLA in Dublin fought with other gangs were all about politics, and Duffy's activities 'on a personal level' had nothing to do with any of them.
Firstly I would hazard a guess that the INLA Dublin Brigade was far from the INLA's biggest if you look at its areas of operation.
That murderous feud that Duffy conducted was fought under the illusion that that gang was trying to intimidate Duffy and its members in Dublin.
When it came to light what was actually going on, obviously too late, the INLA took action against him.
What he did with his resources at his disposal was for his own self interest to exploit the situation to his favour and it had damn all to do with the INLA.

Nothing of this shows that he was a paid government agent. You might infer it, but I would just presume he is a gangster turned stool pigeon to protect his own skin. Unless there is any evidence of him being a state agent that seems more likely to me.
Dev thats ridiculous, the very nature of being a government agent is all about being covert and unscrupulous. Obviously I do not have that kind of evidence at my disposal but it is not a massive leap in logic to conclude that some form of government control was being exherted over Duffy to further discredit the INLA.

Too slow seems to be a bit of an understatement. To most interested observers it was obvious that there was something deeply wrong going on even before the 'Ballymount incident', which I will refrain from calling the 'Ballymount Bloodbath'* as the worst sections of the popular press do, in 1999. That this guy was O/C ten years later is more than a little slow.
The Ballymount Bloodbath was something the INLA should never shy away from it was an OP to tackle gangsters terrorising innocent people.
You obviously dont understand the full context of the Ballymount bloodbath to even compare it to Duffys criminality in later years.

On a personal human level I feel sorry for these people too. It must be terrible for them to have all they have fought to build destroyed and discredited. I can remember my grandfather, who had been a communist since just after the Russian revolution crying into his beer as we watched the failure of the coup in Russia in 1991 in the pub. It must have been absolutely sole destroying for him to realise that it was all over after having spent his whole adult life dedicated to to what he saw as the cause of the working class.
Ya sounds very familiar.

That doesn't mean that Stalinism wasn't a viscous anti-working class form of capitalism though.
And this boils down to the politics of National Liberation Dev.
If you want we can discuss the merits and pitfalls of it and the justifications in Marxism and the criticisms of it or the successfull implementation of it and the failures in it but we will just be rakeing over old ground again Dev.

*Maybe you should explain what happened to posters who aren't familiar with it.
Ok a friend of the IRSM in Dublin his father was being extorted by a criminal gang in Dublin. They arranged to meet his father in a warehouse in Ballymount to finalise the payments they were attmepting to extort from him. The fathers son approached the IRSM who said they would intervene on behalf of the family. They waited in the warehouse for the gang to arrive and when they did they tied them up and tortured them. But during this more of the criminal gang arrived and in what ensued was a shootout and people getting stabbed and slashed. In the end a young INLA Volunteer Paddy Bo Campbell was given a fatal stab wound of which he later died. A former INLA man present ended up driving him to the hospital but later died and this man served many years for his inovledment in the incident. In the years that followed there was swift retribution for the death of Paddy Bo.
This was a case of the INLA helping defend innocent people from this criminal gangs attempted extortion of them and in what followed was a brutal fight and a far cry from Duffys criminality, there is no comparison.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Yet another shining example of your lack of amrxist understanding.
Cops are the armed wing of the capitalist bourgeois class sued to subdue the working class in times if class strife.
Hence why I do not shed a tear over their untimely demise.
There you go again - I never asked you to shed a tear over anyone.

You stated that the INLA carried out robberies - I stated they killed people in the process - you asked for examples - I gave you two. I didn't stated that they killed people (excluding cops) - you didn't ask for examples (excluding cops).

And irrespective of the role of the state forces - cops are human beings - and unless they are posing a direct threat to the working class in a revolutionary situation, killing them should be avoided. I would hardly think that getting caught while robbing a post office in the arsehole of Co. Louth qualifies as justification killing anyone.



Thats blatantly obvious.
The removal of Gerry Mandering, the greater equality with regaurds housing and employment.
Are you seriously that deluded. Do you think that gerrymandering is gone? Do you really think that equality exists regarding housing and employment? All that has really happened has been the ghettoisation of the Catholic and Protestant communities - far more people now live in either only Catholic or only Protestant communities or work in only Catholic or only Protestant workplaces than at any time over the past 100 years. I am surprised you aren't calling for Catholics to leave British based trade unions.


Obviously we are still light years away from our political goals but it has achieved some degree of equality for the people of Ireland.
It has achieved nothing - the British state has achieved their objectives - republicanism has achieved nothing. The equality republicans talk about is that when the state forces fire 70 rubber bullets at Catholics they should also fire 70 at Protestants.



Your critical Marxist analysis of Loyalism as the pro-imperialist quasi-facism that it is.
I get it - because loyalism is quasi-fascist (which it isn't) - it justifies 'isolated incidents' like the murder of Robert McCartney and all the other 'isolated incidents'. To remotely equate the Spanish Civil War and the campaign of individual terror of republicans is seriously delusional.



One fo the major recent events in the past decade is how Loyalism has now turned its ugly head away from the Nationalist communtiy to a certain extent and now directing their racial supremacy at the new foreign immigrants in Loyalist niegbourhoods.
Fascism and racism are two different things - that of course is necessary to ignore in order to justify some delusional idea that you are fighting fascism.


These guerilla groups did indeed have small membership, as was the nature of the war of attrition in Northern Ireland but that is not to ignore the wide support base they held in Nationalist Communitys.

To suggest that the INLA had anything more than the passive toleration of sections of the Catholic community (outside of a few drinking dens in certain parts of Belfast) once again demonstrates your delusions.

Dev can debate with the likes of yourself - someone who thinks they understand Marxism and who thinks they know what is best for the working class and how they should be led.

Personally I adopt something more to the attitude that Richard Dawkins has towards creationists - debating with deluded republicans gives them a status that they do not deserve and should not have. By the very nature of republicanism and nationalism, mitigates against comprehending Marxism - republicans can simply regurgitate the words - but never understand the meaning.

[Jolly Red Giant]

They waited in the warehouse for the gang to arrive and when they did they tied them up and tortured them.
I just spotted this - and it clearly demonstrates why republican paramilitaries have no role to play in the workers movement or defending working class comunities.

Why were they tortured?

Was it some sadistic steak in the INLA men involved?

Was it to scare the gang?

Why didn't the INLA unit just shoot them? Surely that would have sent a clear message.

If they didn't want to kill them why not just knee-cap them?

Instead they decided to spend time torturing them and ended up getting caught by a second group of criminals.

While I have no sympathy for the criminals involved - I have none for the paramilitaries involved either - what they did was completely counter-productive and did nothing to stop the activity of criminal gangs in the community. Another example of 'we know what's best - you just support us and let us take care of everything'.

[Tifosi]

This style of killing is the only way the RIRA stay in the headlines these days, oh and the attacks on Catholic members of the PSNI/RUC. What doe's that really say about the RIRA?

[Devrim]

FFS I wasnt claiming that.
Hence why I stated numerous times we do not have majority working class support.
Granted that one post I made could have been frazed better but its not like I would repeatedly say we dont have majority working class support and then in the same thread claim we have majority working class support.
I just frazed that post innacurately.

Fair enough, it was just badly phrased. It just seemed a little bit of a crazy assertion to me.


But surely Dev the point that the very being of a paramilitary strcture leads to criminality among individuals surely it is a logical assumption that the whole organisation would eventually be subsumed by criminality since its membership as individuals gradually become more subsumed by criminality.
This has yet to be the case with the INLA.

I think it is a tendency. I am not saying that it has become total, or that it would ever get to that point. It did get to the point where it completely took over the biggest brigade in the INLA though.


As I pointed out above it has got nothing to do with paramilitarys it merely means these paramilitarys exist in a social context of which some criminality exists and thus some will infiltrate paramilitary strctures. Its got little to nothing to do with paramilitarys and everything to do with the social context of Ireland.

I don't think that it has anything specifically to do with Ireland at all. Look at the PKK and its involvement in the heroin trade, and racketeering.


I mean it was not sanctioned or given the go ahead by the leadership of the INLA.
I mean his criminality was conducted as a private enterprise of which he exploited certain resources at his control.
But to claim that the INLA was behind his activity is just a distortion of the truth.

Which is a bit like saying that the British government wasn't responsible for the murders on bloody Sunday because the paras weren't given the go ahead to kill people by the Prime Minister.


Firstly I would hazard a guess that the INLA Dublin Brigade was far from the INLA's biggest if you look at its areas of operation.

And its biggest numerically I believe too. The point about its area of operation is that to a great extent this has been gangsterism.


That murderous feud that Duffy conducted was fought under the illusion that that gang was trying to intimidate Duffy and its members in Dublin.
When it came to light what was actually going on, obviously too late, the INLA took action against him.

Later, you portray this as 'a case of the INLA helping defend innocent people from this criminal gangs attempted extortion of them'. These things are all connected.


Dev thats ridiculous, the very nature of being a government agent is all about being covert and unscrupulous. Obviously I do not have that kind of evidence at my disposal but it is not a massive leap in logic to conclude that some form of government control was being exherted over Duffy to further discredit the INLA.

But the only evidence for this is circumstantial, and there are much more, in my opinion, likely reasons for his actions. Basically, that he was just trying to save himself.


The Ballymount Bloodbath was something the INLA should never shy away from it was an OP to tackle gangsters terrorising innocent people.
You obviously dont understand the full context of the Ballymount bloodbath to even compare it to Duffys criminality in later years.

I think that the context is merely gang warfare, nothing more, nothing less.


Ok a friend of the IRSM in Dublin his father was being extorted by a criminal gang in Dublin. They arranged to meet his father in a warehouse in Ballymount to finalise the payments they were attmepting to extort from him. The fathers son approached the IRSM who said they would intervene on behalf of the family.

Was not the father of the friend a small business man? It is good to know that it is now the task of so-called revolutionary organisation to protect the petit-bourgeoisie from racketeering. Given that it is well known that the INLA in Dublin is involved in racketeering, it wouldn't take 'a massive leap in logic to conclude' that this was just part of a turf war.

Devrim

[pastradamus]

My point is despite what you may believe from reading what IRSP people say on these boards, the INLA are believed by many people in Ireland to be deeply involved in organised crime and drug dealing, and not just by people in Coleraine.

Well the simple answer to that statement is Yes, the INLA are involved in organised crime - Banks, robberies etc, etc etc...
Any involvement the INLA ever had with drugs came from either people falsely claiming to be from the INLA or from INLA members acting inappropriately and involving themselves in the drug trade without the permission of the leadership. This can be seen in the Republics section with Duffy going behind the main leaderships back and becoming involved in drugs. This is something that has been cleaned up however and there is, to my knowledge no more of this going on. It often show's when people involved in drugs claim to be from the INLA it is usually in an area where there is no Real INLA presence and so people can use the title. They use the name of the INLA as its a lot more obscure than that of the IRA - who have strong representations and presence in more or less every part of the country.


It is something that you can read written in the press, hear from mainstream republican figures, and see written on the walls in Derry, 'I Rob Shops and Post offices).I really dont see the problem with robbing shops and post offices. Especially if you take into account that the INLA is more or less an Urban Guerrilla organisation. It is a militant group and this is what they do to shops and post offices in order to fund their movement. Lenin did it, Mao did it and so did many others.


In which case one wonders why it got to the point last March when they even had to stand down one of their brigades because it was involved in drug dealing and gangsterism.

DevrimIs this in relation to Duffy's command in Dublin?

[Devrim]

Well the simple answer to that statement is Yes, the INLA are involved in organised crime - Banks, robberies etc, etc etc...

Does etc here mean racketeering, drug dealing, smuggling, extortion kidnapping and so on?


Any involvement the INLA ever had with drugs came from either people falsely claiming to be from the INLA or from INLA members acting inappropriately and involving themselves in the drug trade without the permission of the leadership.

The biggest brigade's O/C was actively involved in drug dealing and gangsterism. I don't really care if the leadership publicly gave their permission or not. Despite the fact that even if they had authorised it, they wouldn't publicly say it, I think we only have to look at what went on in Dublin to see that the INLA was involved in the drugs trade.



This can be seen in the Republics section with Duffy going behind the main leaderships back and becoming involved in drugs. This is something that has been cleaned up however and there is, to my knowledge no more of this going on.

In my opinion because it was so public it was causing embarrassment. It took long enough didn't it.


Is this in relation to Duffy's command in Dublin?

Yes.

Devrim

[fionntan]

You tell us what does it say? Redclyde

[dubaba]

RIRA should be educating about drugs and helping with rehabilitation if they actually want to do something productive.

[32csmabu]

I won't shed a tear for this scumbag, but tbh the RIRA and 32csm have little to nothing to offer the working class of Ireland, they are a bit of a joke politically I'm afraid and I'm quite glad the unity forum has been put on ice.
little to offer? its the 32csm in dublin and cork and derry working in their communities, the irsp remain non existant in dublin and have shrunk across the country. i think youll find the reputation of the reals is considerably higher in these same areas than that of the INLA, perhaps if theyd stood down their dublin brigade before allowing twenty volunteers to go needlessly into jail. well the unity forum might be on ice but at least the irsp have a chance to work with those radicals in the pbpa...

[32csmabu]

as for the original subject of the thread staunton was a well known scumbag. pity they didnt get him sooner

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

Disgusting, why dont they kill the bigimporters, not the poor lads who sell toscrape by in life.

Why is it every irish "socialist" i speak to advocates the murder of pizza dilivery men and petty dealers.

Fucking way to offer the lad a different alternative, unemployed people have to earn money somehow.

Anyway these guys are capitalists anyway, plus alot are racist and fundementalists, they are not Socialists,though they may contain socialists in their ranks.

[Hoggy_RS]

little to offer? its the 32csm in dublin and cork and derry working in their communities, the irsp remain non existant in dublin and have shrunk across the country. i think youll find the reputation of the reals is considerably higher in these same areas than that of the INLA, perhaps if theyd stood down their dublin brigade before allowing twenty volunteers to go needlessly into jail. well the unity forum might be on ice but at least the irsp have a chance to work with those radicals in the pbpa...

In fairness the 32CSM has more than a few reactionary members and this shite about waiting for a united ireland before talking about socialism is just absolute nationalist nonsense.

The 32CSM may work in communities but class based politics are not their thing. I reckon they would be happy enough to collaborate with the bourgoeis in order to achieve their hollow goal of a 32 country free state.

[32csmabu]

In fairness the 32CSM has more than a few reactionary members and this shite about waiting for a united ireland before talking about socialism is just absolute nationalist nonsense.

The 32CSM may work in communities but class based politics are not their thing. I reckon they would be happy enough to collaborate with the bourgoeis in order to achieve their hollow goal of a 32 country free state.
i know very few 32csm members who do not advcoate fundamentally altering the system of government in this country, ive met anarchists and marxists within the ranks fo the sovereignity movement including ex pows and all agree at least that a 32 county capitalist state isnt worth fighting for. we uphold the democratic programme which asserts the rights of the people of ireland to ownership of all the islands resources and the control there of so hardly aiming for a bourgeoisie future. as for class based politics i think actions speak louder than words and the support the 32s have given to communities is evidenced in the growth of the movement nationwide whilst the likes of rsf implode

[32csmabu]

Disgusting, why dont they kill the bigimporters, not the poor lads who sell toscrape by in life.

Why is it every irish "socialist" i speak to advocates the murder of pizza dilivery men and petty dealers.

Fucking way to offer the lad a different alternative, unemployed people have to earn money somehow.

Anyway these guys are capitalists anyway, plus alot are racist and fundementalists, they are not Socialists,though they may contain socialists in their ranks.
you obviously know nothing about the drugs situation in cork, staunton was flooding the place with drugs as well as intimidating addicts fmailies for money. ive yet to meet any irish socialist who advocates killing pizza men so wind your neck in. this wasnt some unemployed young courier he was a scumbag

[MaoTseHelen]

In fairness the 32CSM has more than a few reactionary members and this shite about waiting for a united ireland before talking about socialism is just absolute nationalist nonsense.

The 32CSM may work in communities but class based politics are not their thing. I reckon they would be happy enough to collaborate with the bourgoeis in order to achieve their hollow goal of a 32 country free state.
Boy do you make divide and rule easy on the Brits.

[Hoggy_RS]

i know very few 32csm members who do not advcoate fundamentally altering the system of government in this country, ive met anarchists and marxists within the ranks fo the sovereignity movement including ex pows and all agree at least that a 32 county capitalist state isnt worth fighting for. we uphold the democratic programme which asserts the rights of the people of ireland to ownership of all the islands resources and the control there of so hardly aiming for a bourgeoisie future. as for class based politics i think actions speak louder than words and the support the 32s have given to communities is evidenced in the growth of the movement nationwide whilst the likes of rsf implode

Altering it to what though? Why is it that the 32CSM refuses to take any kind of economic outlook? My assumption is that the 32CSM is afraid of scaring off members by giving support to socialism but this has the same effect of putting off socialists joining. I've certainly come across homophobic anti-marxist members of the 32's and this would make me very wary of ye as a group.


we uphold the democratic programme which asserts the rights of the people of ireland to ownership of all the islands resources and the control there of

Here is the fundamental difference between the 32's and the IRSP: we assert the rights of ownership of all the islands resources and the control there of to the working class.

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

Yeah course he was

Like that young lad the RIRA beat the shit outof then kneecaped for refusing to stop drinking in his front garden, he hung himself a few weeks later.

Fuck the RIRA CIRA

I hope the dealers kill the bastards

Saying that even the PIRA INLA do it, but i can not condone it from anyone.

P\lus 32, dont give it the Im irish so i know more than you about ireland shit ok son, if the Republicans support kneecapings, then they are pretty disgusting people.

Instead of fighting the brits on a big scale, you know cause they lack support, they stick to shooting unarmed boys.

As bad as jhon Adir lol, is that loyalist bastard back in NI btw, heard he was

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

The 32s are a bunch of capies who parrot the hollow 32 county socialist republic, but their socialism isnt the same as Marx's.

"Bobby sands didnt die for seats in stormont he died for a socialist republic"

He also did not die fighting for a reactionary and inadequete movement like the 32 county boyos

[32csmabu]

The 32s are a bunch of capies who parrot the hollow 32 county socialist republic, but their socialism isnt the same as Marx's.

"Bobby sands didnt die for seats in stormont he died for a socialist republic"

He also did not die fighting for a reactionary and inadequete movement like the 32 county boyos
our socialism is that of the proclamation, that of connolly and the ICA. the soft left who refuse to actually challenge imperialism are the pathetic ones. bobby sands was a republican through and through he died for political status that is still not being afforded to the pows in maghaberry

[32csmabu]

Altering it to what though? Why is it that the 32CSM refuses to take any kind of economic outlook? My assumption is that the 32CSM is afraid of scaring off members by giving support to socialism but this has the same effect of putting off socialists joining. I've certainly come across homophobic anti-marxist members of the 32's and this would make me very wary of ye as a group.

the 32csm is not a political party, its outlook is itentionally more narrow than that of the likes of eirigi or indeed the irsp. ive come across my fair share of undesirables from the irsm too i doubt theres any organisation that does not have a few within its ranks.

Here is the fundamental difference between the 32's and the IRSP: we assert the rights of ownership of all the islands resources and the control there of to the working class.
i say let the irish people decide, the proclamation was not for the working class alone but nor did it serve the bankers and landowners.

[32csmabu]

Yeah course he was

Like that young lad the RIRA beat the shit outof then kneecaped for refusing to stop drinking in his front garden, he hung himself a few weeks later.

Fuck the RIRA CIRA

I hope the dealers kill the bastards

Saying that even the PIRA INLA do it, but i can not condone it from anyone.

P\lus 32, dont give it the Im irish so i know more than you about ireland shit ok son, if the Republicans support kneecapings, then they are pretty disgusting people.

Instead of fighting the brits on a big scale, you know cause they lack support, they stick to shooting unarmed boys.

As bad as jhon Adir lol, is that loyalist bastard back in NI btw, heard he was

wow your lack of intelligence and even basic knowledge is fairly astounding, for a start have you actually ever been to ardoyne? that "kid" was a scumbag that tormented his community and was given warnings, you support heroin dealers who are destroying lives rather than the people stopping them.says a lot about your charachter. kneecappings are brutal obviously. but guess what if you actually lived in a working class area the rose tinted glasses might come off. the peelers do nothing to help these communities. youd fiddle while they burned but the IRA steps in. they should eb commended for doing so

[Soldier of life]

i say let the irish people decide, the proclamation was not for the working class alone but nor did it serve the bankers and landowners.

The vast, vast majority of Irish people want the RIRA to go away, why don't you respect there wishes now then, going by your logic?

[Soldier of life]

our socialism is that of the proclamation, that of connolly and the ICA. the soft left who refuse to actually challenge imperialism are the pathetic ones. bobby sands was a republican through and through he died for political status that is still not being afforded to the pows in maghaberry

Connolly was a marxist, the 32csm are certainly not.

[Soldier of life]

Altering it to what though? Why is it that the 32CSM refuses to take any kind of economic outlook? My assumption is that the 32CSM is afraid of scaring off members by giving support to socialism but this has the same effect of putting off socialists joining. I've certainly come across homophobic anti-marxist members of the 32's and this would make me very wary of ye as a group.



Here is the fundamental difference between the 32's and the IRSP: we assert the rights of ownership of all the islands resources and the control there of to the working class.

In fact I would advice them to have a word with their recruitment officer. A friend of mine applied to join in Dublin last year and met up with VL and when he enquired about the socialist leanings of the group he was laughed at and asked why would we need socialism in this day and age. I am sure there are a couple of left republicans in the 32csm, but as a group it is indisputable that they aren't socialist, sure they have never claimed to be, which makes the claim of this poster even more bizarre.

[Palingenisis]

The vast, vast majority of Irish people want the RIRA to go away, why don't you respect there wishes now then, going by your logic?


Its not enough to be against something, you have to know what you are for and the Reals like the Provos before them are pretty vague on that.

[Hoggy_RS]

i say let the irish people decide, the proclamation was not for the working class alone but nor did it serve the bankers and landowners.

So you think that all classes should have a place in running a united ireland? so a 32 county free state?

Thats more like Fianna Fáil talk than the policies of a revolutionary group.

[Hoggy_RS]

Its not enough to be against something, you have to know what you are for and the Reals like the Provos before them are pretty vague on that.

They are just a brits-out brigade with no coherent politics.

[Soldier of life]

They are just a brits-out brigade with no coherent politics.

As evidenced by stealing word for word motions at their AGM from an IRSP AF. They also point to an RSF document Eire Nua as a 'possible' blueprint for a UI, so basically adopting it without adopting it. Perhaps they need to sit down as a group and iron out what kind of UI they want, otherwise how are people supposed to take them seriously as an organisation.

[Palingenisis]

As evidenced by stealing word for word motions at their AGM from an IRSP AF. They also point to an RSF document Eire Nua as a 'possible' blueprint for a UI, so basically adopting it without adopting it. Perhaps they need to sit down as a group and iron out what kind of UI they want, otherwise how are people supposed to take them seriously as an organisation.

Basically its a reverting to the old Sean Russell type romantic militarism born out of despair. When you think about there are lots of similarities between a certain type of Irish Republican and Insurrectionary Anarchists.

[No pasarán]

Its funny how this thread has now become a serious of statements pulling apart the weakness of the RIRA and 32SCM policies. Not that that is a bad thing as such. It is a shame for all their millitry abilities the provo's did not have the same strength in there polotical wing. It saddens me somewhat to see ex provos who are obviously socialists still lending their support to shinners. But then again at the height of the troubles sinn feins leaders didn't make it clear just how much they would later abuse there positions.

As for the original purpose of this thread, well I disagree with the way the killing was carried out, the disrespect of the mans funeral and wether the killing itself was neccessary? Could they have not just intimdated him out of business? But then again would knee capping him stopped him? It a murky fucking road... I find it hard to support the idea of punishment beatings except it the most extreme circumstances.

[YKTMX]

In light of the execution of this petty drug dealer, I expect the British to remove the border within the week.

[howblackisyourflag]

In light of the execution of this petty drug dealer, I expect the British to remove the border within the week.

Exactly, I dont see how this kind of stuff helps anyone.

[Hoggy_RS]

In light of the execution of this petty drug dealer, I expect the British to remove the border within the week.
Allegedley he was shifting serious amounts of heroin....

[Proletarian Ultra]

Connolly was a marxist, the 32csm are certainly not.

I knew a couple of Irish-American sympathizers of the 32's. Their politics were those of Kennedy. No, not the president, I mean Joe Kennedy, Sr (http://hnn.us/articles/697.html). Hardly the 32's fault to be sure, but this would have been right up their alley. Though it would have taken the shine off a little when they found out drug dealers in Ireland aren't black.

[Starport]

• The Bolshevik Social-Democrats are often accused of a frivolous passion for guerrilla actions. It would therefore not be amiss to recall that in the draft resolution on guerrilla actions (Partiiniye Izvestia, No. 2, and Lenin’s report on the Congress), the section of the Bolsheviks who defend guerrilla actions suggested the following conditions for their recognition: “expropriations” of private property were not to be permitted under any circumstances; “expropriations” of government property were not to be recommended but only allowed, provided that they were controlled by the Party and their proceeds used for the needs of an uprising. Guerrilla acts in the form of terrorism were to be recommended against brutal government officials and active members of the Black Hundreds, but on condition that 1) the sentiments of the masses be taken into account; 2) the conditions of the working-class movement in the given locality be reckoned with, and 3) care be taken that the forces of the proletariat should not be frittered away.
Proletary, No 5, GUERRILLA WARFARE September 30, 1908

[No pasarán]

• The Bolshevik Social-Democrats are often accused of a frivolous passion for guerrilla actions. It would therefore not be amiss to recall that in the draft resolution on guerrilla actions (Partiiniye Izvestia, No. 2, and Lenin’s report on the Congress), the section of the Bolsheviks who defend guerrilla actions suggested the following conditions for their recognition: “expropriations” of private property were not to be permitted under any circumstances; “expropriations” of government property were not to be recommended but only allowed, provided that they were controlled by the Party and their proceeds used for the needs of an uprising. Guerrilla acts in the form of terrorism were to be recommended against brutal government officials and active members of the Black Hundreds, but on condition that 1) the sentiments of the masses be taken into account; 2) the conditions of the working-class movement in the given locality be reckoned with, and 3) care be taken that the forces of the proletariat should not be frittered away.
Proletary, No 5, GUERRILLA WARFARE September 30, 1908

Put that in simpler terms please? I do understand it (just), but its a bit to complicated for me to remember if I wanna explain it to yer man in the street?

[Starport]

Put that in simpler terms please? I do understand it (just), but its a bit to complicated for me to remember if I wanna explain it to yer man in the street?

Sorry No pasaran, I wasn't trying to to baffle.

The fact is, this is not a 'simple' matter for anyone wanting to take the struggle against capitalism all the way to the complete victory of the working class - and that is the only straggle worth having. The thing is - we are "yer man in the street" as you put it, and we just have to wrestle with this.

The bests I can suggest for now (and it is the very best) is to take a look at, and then study, the full text of Lenin's attitude to this. Why Lenin? Because he lead and won the fight and has the authority that deserves a hearing again.

Good Look

Below is a short extract only:


Guerrilla Warfare

V. I. Lenin

First published in Proletary, No. 5, September 30, 1906
Collected Works,Vol.11, pp.213-23.

The question of guerrilla action is one that greatly interests our Party and the mass of the workers. We have dealt with this question in passing several times, and now we propose to give the more complete statement of our views we have promised.
I

Let us begin from the beginning. What are the fundamental demands which every Marxist should make of an examination of the question of forms of struggle? In the first place, Marxism differs from all primitive forms of socialism by not binding the movement to any one particular form of struggle.It recognises the most varied forms of struggle; and it does not "concoct" them, but only generalises, organises, gives conscious expression to those forms of struggle of the revolutionary classes which arise of themselves in the course of the movement. Absolutely hostile to all abstract formulas and to all doctrinaire recipes, Marxism demands an attentive attitude to the mass struggle in progress, which, as the movement develops, as the class-consciousness of the masses grows, as economic and political crises become acute, continually gives rise to new and more varied methods of defence and attack. Marxism, therefore, positively does not reject any form of struggle. Under no circumstances does Marxism confine itself to the forms of struggle possible and in existence at the given moment only, recognising as it does that new forms of struggle, unknown to the participants of the given period, inevitably arise as the given social situation changes. In this respect Marxism learns, if we may so express it, from mass practice, and makes no claim whatever to teach the masses forms of struggle invented by "systematisers" in the seclusion of their studies. We know -- said Kautsky, for instance, when examining the forms of social revolution -- that the coming crisis will introduce new forms of struggle that we are now unable to foresee.

[Woyzeck]

I knew a couple of Irish-American sympathizers of the 32's. Their politics were those of Kennedy. No, not the president, I mean Joe Kennedy, Sr (http://hnn.us/articles/697.html). Hardly the 32's fault to be sure, but this would have been right up their alley. Though it would have taken the shine off a little when they found out drug dealers in Ireland aren't black.

Don't ask me for a source but I'm fairly certain that the Provos' original paper in the US supported the invasion of Vietnam.

[The Grey Blur]

It wouldn't be surprising, the IRA pre-Stick/Provo split was publishing reactionary articles right up until the split. The Sticks would have sympathized with the NLF while I doubt the Provo splitters felt such affinity. The important thing to remember is that by the 80s the Provo leadership would definitely have cited the Vietnamese as comrades, similar to the Basques, Palestinians etc. But what provoked this swing to the left? It was a result of their social base changing around the mass support they gained during the H-Block struggle; the leadership moved from that of Ó Bradaigh to the urban working-class of Adams, and that meant at least a lip-service to social-justice and an ideological commitment to anti-imperialism/internationalism rather than a purely nationalist & long-term goal.

On the murder, it's utterly stupid. I'm sure there are still junkies in Cork, and there will be until you tackle the root socio-economic factors which perpetuate drug abuse. The RIRA and their political sympathisers have no politics beyond that of the bullet.

[Woyzeck]

On the murder, it's utterly stupid. I'm sure there are still junkies in Cork, and there will be until you tackle the root socio-economic factors which perpetuate drug abuse. The RIRA and their political sympathisers have no politics beyond that of the bullet.

They're not exactly qualified to sit in judgement of these alleged criminals either, considering they themselves are involved in 'serious crime'.

[Hoggy_RS]

They're not exactly qualified to sit in judgement of these alleged criminals either, considering they themselves are involved in 'serious crime'.

such as? I'm not a fan of the RIRA at all but i'd like to know what kind of crime you could be referring to?

[Woyzeck]

such as? I'm not a fan of the RIRA at all but i'd like to know what kind of crime you could be referring to?

Of course I don't have any evidence comrade but smuggled fuel, smuggled cigarettes and who knows what else. I'm sure they've robbed the odd post office or corner shop in their time too for the 'war effort'. Oh and torture and murder.

[Starport]

Of course I don't have any evidence comrade but smuggled fuel, smuggled cigarettes and who knows what else. I'm sure they've robbed the odd post office or corner shop in their time too for the 'war effort'. Oh and torture and murder.

No evidence?

[MaoTseHelen]

^ No need with a blanket ad hom.

I find it funny [and contradictory] that, of all the things the proletariat cares least about these days is what some Soviet congress said 100 years ago, yet we're expected to qualify what we do under those grounds. :laugh:

[Woyzeck]

No evidence?

Yes.

[Soldier of life]

Don't ask me for a source but I'm fairly certain that the Provos' original paper in the US supported the invasion of Vietnam.

I have also heard that originally at least, the provos supported the yanks in Vietnam alright.

[fionntan]

Yes.


Supply it then big lad or else Cece your anti republican rant.

[Starport]

I have also heard that originally at least, the provos supported the yanks in Vietnam alright.

Any evidence?

[Soldier of life]

Any evidence?

If you would read my post you would notice the word 'heard', unfortunately I dont have documentation to prove it, merely the word of those who were involved in the split with the sticks, and considering the make-up of the provos and the fact they had many fraternal relationships in the US with people who were not so progressive politically, it is quite possible. Also heard not so long ago about how Ogra SF were highlighting the plight of a black panther prisoner, and the SF leadership were due to mention the campaign in an address in the US but in the end left it out for fear of pissing off those who hold the purse strings in yankistan.

[Starport]

To Woyzeck and Solier for life

You must surely understand the importance of being able to support the reports your give with some evidence.

[Soldier of life]

To Woyzeck and Solier for life

You must surely understand the importance of being able to support the reports your give with some evidence.

Indeed I do, hence why whenever attacking the provisional movement I wouldn't bring that matter up, because all I have would be anecdotal evidence which doesn't stand up in debate. A poster merely mentioned something I had heard previously from those involved in the split, so I confirmed that I had heard the same from the Horse's mouth so to speak. However as I said, if this was a matter of debate about the provisionals, I wouldn't be basing my criticisms on ifs and buts, but rather concrete analysis.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Indeed I do, hence why whenever attacking the provisional movement I wouldn't bring that matter up, because all I have would be anecdotal evidence which doesn't stand up in debate. A poster merely mentioned something I had heard previously from those involved in the split, so I confirmed that I had heard the same from the Horse's mouth so to speak. However as I said, if this was a matter of debate about the provisionals, I wouldn't be basing my criticisms on ifs and buts, but rather concrete analysis.
If people want to find out more information about the various splits in the republican movement - I suggest a read of The Lost Revolution: The Story of the Official IRA and the Workers' Party by Brian Hanley and Scott Miller. It is particularly informative about the right wing nature of the PIRA/OIRA split and goes into significant detail on the split between the OIRA and the INLA.

[Soldier of life]

If people want to find out more information about the various splits in the republican movement - I suggest a read of The Lost Revolution: The Story of the Official IRA and the Workers' Party by Brian Hanley and Scott Miller. It is particularly informative about the right wing nature of the PIRA/OIRA split and goes into significant detail on the split between the OIRA and the INLA.

I've read it. Excellent book, on the topic at hand of the provisionals I shall quote a reference in that book to how the sticks regarded the provos...as an 'armed celtic supporters club'. Their lack of class analysis has them well and truly where they are today.

[The Grey Blur]

I've read it. Excellent book, on the topic at hand of the provisionals I shall quote a reference in that book to how the sticks regarded the provos...as an 'armed celtic supporters club'. Their lack of class analysis has them well and truly where they are today.
The Lost Revolution is good and as JRG says expands on the right-wing nature of the original Provo splitters. I'll repeat though that by the mid-80s the Provos (especially in Belfast) were far from an "armed celtic supporters club" - the influx of members from People's Democracy, a mass base of working-class support built up around the H-Block protests, a younger more radical leadership - led to them adopting an internationalist and socialist-in-theory outlook, to the point where Danny Morrison was able to say, "we are more revolutionary than the Sticks". You're right though in that a lack of a class approach is what has the SF in their current position of adminstering British rule in the North. They failed to link the struggle in the north to the struggle of the working-class in England against Thatcher. But I also think this was a general failure of the republican left and not something the Sticks or Irps were immune to either. All the republican groups adopted a stageist approach to socialism which along with the focus on armed struggle meant they ditched a class approach and completely isolated themselves from the protestant worker. What was the appeal of a capitalist catholic-dominated united ireland supposed to be for the protestant worker (even as a first step towards socialism)?

[No pasarán]

The Lost Revolution is good and as JRG says expands on the right-wing nature of the original Provo splitters. I'll repeat though that by the mid-80s the Provos (especially in Belfast) were far from an "armed celtic supporters club" - the influx of members from People's Democracy, a mass base of working-class support built up around the H-Block protests, a younger more radical leadership - led to them adopting an internationalist and socialist-in-theory outlook, to the point where Danny Morrison was able to say, "we are more revolutionary than the Sticks". You're right though in that a lack of a class approach is what has the SF in their current position of adminstering British rule in the North. They failed to link the struggle in the north to the struggle of the working-class in England against Thatcher. But I also think this was a general failure of the republican left and not something the Sticks or Irps were immune to either. All the republican groups adopted a stageist approach to socialism which along with the focus on armed struggle meant they ditched a class approach and completely isolated themselves from the protestant worker. What was the appeal of a capitalist catholic-dominated united ireland supposed to be for the protestant worker (even as a first step towards socialism)?

Your spot on there

[The Grey Blur]

Yeah, further to that I've heard that miners (as they regularly did at the time to build solidarity) visited the North during the strikes in 84/85 and got an equally warm reception in both working class catholic and protestant areas.

[MaoTseHelen]

I've read it. Excellent book, on the topic at hand of the provisionals I shall quote a reference in that book to how the sticks regarded the provos...as an 'armed celtic supporters club'. Their lack of class analysis has them well and truly where they are today.
Because the Sticks succeeded at energizing the working class into a revolution? Ha.

[howblackisyourflag]

Any reason why the IRA is hated by so many people in the South?

Is it because of their actions, the propaganda of the status quo, or is this kind of hate aginst groups like the IRA by the ruling classes as common in other countries like against the kurdish freedom fighters in turkey or other groups worldwide?

[Hoggy_RS]

Any reason why the IRA is hated by so many people in the South?

Is it because of their actions, the propaganda of the status quo, or is this kind of hate aginst groups like the IRA by the ruling classes as common in other countries like against the kurdish freedom fighters in turkey or other groups worldwide?

I don't reckon they are hated, as such. But people don't want a return to the troubles and hence would oppose most armed groups.

[Jolly Red Giant]

to the point where Danny Morrison was able to say, "we are more revolutionary than the Sticks".
You are correct that there was a shift to the left in the leadership of the Provos - reflecting pressure from below - but at all times the socialist objectives were subservient to the nationalist ones. In realty the changing comparison with OSF had more to do with the stickies shifting to the right than the Provos moving dramatically to the left.


They failed to link the struggle in the north to the struggle of the working-class in England against Thatcher.
The republican left are incapable of finding an echo among the English working class - the politics of republicans is instinctively repugnant to English workers (and the vast majority of irish workers as well). The only place it finds an echo is among those who join ultra-left organisations who engage in cheerleading the Provo campaign without the slightest understanding of the impact of that campaign.


All the republican groups adopted a stageist approach to socialism which along with the focus on armed struggle meant they ditched a class approach and completely isolated themselves from the protestant worker. What was the appeal of a capitalist catholic-dominated united ireland supposed to be for the protestant worker (even as a first step towards socialism)?
This is pretty much spot on.

[Soldier of life]

Because the Sticks succeeded at energizing the working class into a revolution? Ha.

I'm not a stick and I wasn't suggesting they did:confused:

[Soldier of life]

All the republican groups adopted a stageist approach to socialism which along with the focus on armed struggle meant they ditched a class approach and completely isolated themselves from the protestant worker. What was the appeal of a capitalist catholic-dominated united ireland supposed to be for the protestant worker (even as a first step towards socialism)?

That's not correct. The IRSP was founded because they believed that the provos sole concentration on the national struggle was the incorrect approach, the 'labour must wait' attitude was wholly rejected by the IRSP. And they disagreed with the sticks because the sticks completely abandoned the national side of the struggle to concentrate on socialist[socialist to me includes a strong approach to national liberation, using the term here to differentiate between economic agitation and the IRSP approach] work, especially in the 26 counties.

The approach of the IRSP/INLA has always been that the struggle for national liberation and socialism go hand in hand, that they are instrinsically linked. My one gripe with the IRSP/INLA approach was that it was spot on in theory, but the actions of the movement didn't always reflect it..ie. a tendency to overplay the role of the INLA thus relegating the workers to the sidelines of the struggle. This is something I believe the INLA and IRSP have come to realise and was part of the rationale behind decommissioning. The only way to smash partition and capitalism is through a mass workers movement, and while I acknowledge the right of groups like the INLA to carry out 'individual' armed actions, they must never be the focal point of the struggle and merely a tool to supplement the over struggle of the Irish working class.

[MaoTseHelen]

I don't reckon they are hated, as such. But people don't want a return to the troubles and hence would oppose most armed groups.
Yeah, more or less this.

[Woyzeck]

Supply it then big lad or else Cece your anti republican rant.

What does that even mean? How was I being "anti-republican"?

[Woyzeck]

I have also heard that originally at least, the provos supported the yanks in Vietnam alright.

I think it might be mentioned in Richard English's Armed Struggle. I'll look it up.

[Starport]

I think it might be mentioned in Richard English's Armed Struggle. I'll look it up.

Come on lads, get on with it. page number? ISBN number etc? Give us a clue.

[The Grey Blur]

What is your problem Starport? Have you read Lost Revolution? It mentions that up until the 60s pre-split the United Irishman was publishing some of the most ridiculous anti-semitic, pro-catholic, anti-communist, etc reactionary stuff. This is common knowledge. This reactionary strain is carried on today by Ó Brádaigh and his ilk, and the nutters who wouldn't support the immigrant workers at Irish Ferries.


You are correct that there was a shift to the left in the leadership of the Provos - reflecting pressure from below - but at all times the socialist objectives were subservient to the nationalist ones.
I agree, and it's shown by their actions in government in the North.


The republican left are incapable of finding an echo among the English working class - the politics of republicans is instinctively repugnant to English workers (and the vast majority of irish workers as well). The only place it finds an echo is among those who join ultra-left organisations who engage in cheerleading the Provo campaign without the slightest understanding of the impact of that campaign.
I don't agree with this. Throughout the struggle for national independence there has been solidarity from the English working class - from the Chartists 'til the Miner's Strike. Even the Levellers sympathised with the Irish! Individual terrorism destroyed all that goodwill.


That's not correct.
It is correct, read the Ta Power document. Despite realising himself that "only the working classes" could solve the national question his immediate demand is for the institution of a "democratic 32-county republic" which again begs the point what the attraction of this was supposed to be for the protestant worker? The southern state was ruled by a catholic hierarchy, without even the material benefits of a national health service etc. That's why only a socialist appeal can win protestant workers to a republican position. Ta made all the right points but drew some false conclusions. But in practice of course the actions of the INLA/IRSP never reflected such theoretical debates, as you yourself admit. The gun came before all else.

[Starport]

What is your problem Starport? Have you read Lost Revolution? It mentions that up until the 60s pre-split the United Irishman was publishing some of the most ridiculous anti-semitic, pro-catholic, anti-communist, etc reactionary stuff. This is common knowledge. This reactionary strain is carried on today by Ó Brádaigh and his ilk, and the nutters who wouldn't support the immigrant workers at Irish Ferries.

If I had the book or had read the book I wouldn't be asking for references or a relevant quote from it which is what has been offered but not delivered - so far. In this thread all kinds of 'hearsay' and "anecdotal" defamatory comment only, has been thrown about. This may be sufficient and acceptable shorthand for those of you 'in the know' but it just looks and sounds like barroom gossip. Don't let me stop you sounding like a crowd of slack-mouthed moaners (or worse) without the wherewithal to convincingly stand-up what you say if that's what you want to do. All you really needed to do was give a quick credible reference to support your many and varied accusations. By the way, thanks for the reference about the Ta Powers doc - that is very interesting and usfull. Cheers

[Jolly Red Giant]

With all due respect Starport - Hanley's book on the stickies outlines in detail the anti-marxist pro-catholic political outlook of the founders of the PIRA - it would require some time and effort to type the references you are looking for (if someone would be willign to spend their time doing it) and would be far easier for you to find a copy and read it yourself.

[The Grey Blur]

Yeah I don't understand where you're coming from really. It's fairly well known that the IRA of the border campaign contained everything from communists to fascist sympathisers. Is it that hard to believe they'd be publishing anti-communist, anti-semitic screeds in their paper?

There has always been a history of backwards views in the republican movement, going right back to the anti-semite Griffin. A lot of the time those political differences were overlooked as they were united through what they saw as the direct need for armed action. The Provo-Stick split was the result of that contradiction between right-and-left within the movement.

[Starport]

Yeah I don't understand where you're coming from really. It's fairly well known that the IRA of the border campaign contained everything from communists to fascist sympathisers. Is it that hard to believe they'd be publishing anti-communist, anti-semitic screeds in their paper?

There has always been a history of backwards views in the republican movement, going right back to the anti-semite Griffin. A lot of the time those political differences were overlooked as they were united through what they saw as the direct need for armed action. The Provo-Stick split was the result of that contradiction between right-and-left within the movement.

I don't dispute that for a second - if you can prove it! For the benefit and education of the international working class, who are beset on all side by all kinds of black propaganda, intrigue, and provocation. PROVE IT!

[The Grey Blur]

I'm at university at the moment, far away from my copy of Lost Revolution. To be honest your unusual concern in defending a tiny nationalist group from the 1960s' theoretical purity seems a bit ridiculous. Or are you genuinely asking for evidence that the republican movement has always been ideologically confused, to the point where they could fight on either side in the Spanish Civil War?

If I can be bothered at some point I might google a bit to see if there's anything online but really that's your job.

[No pasarán]

I can actually say, a lot of my own research into the ira around the time of the border campaign shows that the IRA was probably a very fragmented organisation. Sean South for instance was at best a right wing, nationalist. At worst a catholic fascist and probably not a man who should be so celebrated in song. While the PIRA did eventually begin to lean more to the left, they were definately something of a more conservitive reaction against the 'official' IRA.

I am still of the view that many members of the republican community did what it felt they had to do and went on the attack, after peaceful attempts to gain more rights for their community had failed. As amazing as those civil rights marches were, they just lead to more state oppresion. While the Orange Oudour... sorry Order, was not a fascist organisation (it long predates that), it along with the RUC and the Stormont parliment of the time were dedicated to mantaning the British, Protestant, capitalist, status quo. And why else would the British goverment have allowed the likes of the RUC and the B Specials, UDR, etc to behave in the way they did if they did not want things to stay the way they were?

But the troubles were definately not fought as well as they could of been, on many occasions the republicans played into the hands of their enemies with ill concived targets in their attacks and some needless killings that were as sectarian as those of the loyalists. As has been mentioned, much more should have been done, to not alienate the British working class as much as they did. But don't forget, even into the 70s Britain, like most countries in europe was even more rascist and had a very low view of the Irish. Despite the troubles, this view has almost disapeared. Also despite hardly conclusively defeating the British goverment, there have been some advances in the rights of the republican population of the north. But whatever side of the border you are on, there is a very long way to go till a 32 state socialist republic, becomes more than a pipe dream.

[The Grey Blur]

Like I said, the OO split in 1907 around the docker's strike. If its working-class members were good enough for Connolly and Larkin they're good enough for me. Only the working-class can solve the divide in the North and the national question in general. I don't really want to go into another debate on the Troubles, I think it's very easy to get revisionist about the whole situation...we have to look forward. I think you need to maintain a marxist perspective though...the civil rights failed because again the catholic right-wing removed the class approach - like Bernadette McAliskey says, "in retrospect, we were essentially saying, less jobs for protestants" - under capitalism there will always be unemployment, capitalism provides the material basis for tribal divides the world round and only on a socialist basis can they be solved.

The working-class in England in the 70s probably were influenced by racist ideas...they still are today. The BNP crushed TUSC in terms of votes...does that mean we abandon the working class? No, it's the only revolutionary force and the only class with a material motivation in seeing racism done away with.

[Palingenisis]

Like I said, the OO split in 1907 around the docker's strike. If its working-class members were good enough for Connolly and Larkin they're good enough for me. Only the working-class can solve the divide in the North and the national question in general. .


Honest question....How many loyalists do you actually know on a personal level?

[No pasarán]

Like I said, the OO split in 1907 around the docker's strike. If its working-class members were good enough for Connolly and Larkin they're good enough for me. Only the working-class can solve the divide in the North and the national question in general. I don't really want to go into another debate on the Troubles, I think it's very easy to get revisionist about the whole situation...we have to look forward. I think you need to maintain a marxist perspective though...the civil rights failed because again the catholic right-wing removed the class approach - like Bernadette McAliskey says, "in retrospect, we were essentially saying, less jobs for protestants" - under capitalism there will always be unemployment, capitalism provides the material basis for tribal divides the world round and only on a socialist basis can they be solved.

The working-class in England in the 70s probably were influenced by racist ideas...they still are today. The BNP crushed TUSC in terms of votes...does that mean we abandon the working class? No, it's the only revolutionary force and the only class with a material motivation in seeing racism done away with.

I agree with most of your points here, except I'm not a marxist so I won't neccessarily be following his perspective though. Of course you are right that the civil rights campaign got caught up with religous fever (/bullshit) much in the way that civil rights in america did (with black liberation hijacked by nation of islam for instance). No matter what fire that feeds its belivers I belive religion is always corrupt and will use people for its own devices.

But I don't think we can look at the OO with rose tinted glasses. Of course it has contained some good, solid working class members who maybe became a little confused by its religous fundermentalisim. And one of the biggest flaws of Irish revolution has been the sectarianism that has long been present. I do not want "a catholic nation for a catholic people" (as DeValera said). But the OO and men such as Ian Paisley have usually acted as nothing but hate mongers for the most part.

[No pasarán]

Honest question....How many loyalists do you actually know on a personal level?

I know this wasn't aimed at me, mo chara, but I know a few people from loyalist backgrounds. Admitably most of them now live in London which probably helps mellow people sometimes. However as mentioned above, I do know a belfast socialist from a loyalist background. I do struggle to understand his loyalism and some of his outlook. But I also agree with most of his socialist beliefs and he surrounds himself with probably more friends from the republican community than his own. I also know several of his 'loyalist' mates, who again, although our beliefs about where they are from differ, I get on very well with.

Another good example is a very good friend of mine who was brought up in a staunch loyalist family, who considers herself to be Irish, not British. But for her I think thats just about the geographical location she was born in. Exceptions to the rule, but still positive signs. I like to think the north is full of people who just haven't realised they're irish yet...

[Palingenisis]

I know this wasn't aimed at me, mo chara, but I know a few people from loyalist backgrounds. Admitably most of them now live in London which probably helps mellow people sometimes. However as mentioned above, I do know a belfast socialist from a loyalist background. I do struggle to understand his loyalism and some of his outlook. But I also agree with most of his socialist beliefs and he surrounds himself with probably more friends from the republican community than his own. I also know several of his 'loyalist' mates, who again, although our beliefs about where they are from differ, I get on very well with.

Another good example is a very good friend of mine who was brought up in a staunch loyalist family, who considers herself to be Irish, not British. But for her I think thats just about the geographical location she was born in. Exceptions to the rule, but still positive signs. I like to think the north is full of people who just haven't realised they're irish yet...

No it was aimed at The Grey Blur.

Spent last night arguing with a loyalist family member I know quite well...It was a total head wreck..Just wondering what his real experiance of dealing with Loyalists is.

Yeah a good few of them are sort of "Left wing"...But its always out of loyality to the "British" working class and not the working class as a whole internationally. That makes their "socialism" pretty empty in my opinion.

[Jolly Red Giant]

It starting to sound a bit like - 'some of my best friends are black'

[Palingenisis]

It starting to sound a bit like - 'some of my best friends are black'

Yeah much more productive would be rant from the comfort of the Free State about "workers' unity" and label people and movements who arent "sectarian"...That a lot more productive mo chara.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Yeah much more productive would be rant from the comfort of the Free State about "workers' unity" and label people and movements who arent "sectarian"...That a lot more productive mo chara.
The Orange Order are a reactionary, sectarian, bigoted organisation. There are a number of reasons why the OO receives support from working class protestants, not least of which that it opposes SF and nationalism.

The question to be asked is how can protestant workers be won away from loyalist organisations like the OO? - buy attempting to build links between catholic and protestant workers through common struggles - or by shooting and bombing them (or in the case of the bunch of political degenerates that you cheerlead for - by supporting the UWC strike)?

One other point - you have absolutely no idea where I live or have lived in the past.

[The Grey Blur]

Honest question....How many loyalists do you actually know on a personal level?
Well don't you know the Trotskyists in the North pursue entry in the Orange Order...

Not that many. As I keep emphasising, the sectarian divide here is immense (I come from a catholic background). The loyalists/protestants I do know though have been co-workers. Which emphasises my second main point- that only the working people have a material and political stake in ending sectarianism, and that the sectarians (the Real IRA, the OO) on both sides don't want to see that happen.

Loyalism has split along class lines before and will again. The duty of republicans who recognise marxism is to engage with that element, and to agitate within the workplace/ex-prisoners organisations/etc towards that end. When an IMT comrade was in Belfast recently him and Gerry Ruddy visited loyalist ex-POWs. They referred to the British forces as 'Brits' and said they had been 'used and abused'. One of them was wearing a Hands Off Venezuela sticker. As Joe McCann said about the three UVF men he captured in the Lower Falls and let go, "I realised they were just working-class lads like me" - loyalists are not all mad bloodthirsty dogs - most are working-class people who felt with a degree of justification that they were defending their communities. Without the threat of the bomb or bullet they can be convinced that their interests do not lie with British Imperialism and partition...they're already starting to draw those conclusions themselves. But they won't be won to this view by the SF, Fianna Fáil or Real IRA position of a Catholic-dominated capitalist United Ireland but a Socialist United Ireland of equality and workers' government.

[No pasarán]

The Orange Order are a reactionary, sectarian, bigoted organisation. There are a number of reasons why the OO receives support from working class protestants, not least of which that it opposes SF and nationalism.

The question to be asked is how can protestant workers be won away from loyalist organisations like the OO? - buy attempting to build links between catholic and protestant workers through common struggles - or by shooting and bombing them (or in the case of the bunch of political degenerates that you cheerlead for - by supporting the UWC strike)?

One other point - you have absolutely no idea where I live or have lived in the past.

I agree with most of this, but you seem to always go out of your way to be that little bit antagonstic when you don't need to? I would think most of republicans on here are aware that 'the troubles' and armed struggle are over. I've certainly seen some progressive opinions, even if you haven't. So why do you ignore this fact and act like they are raving, sectarian bigots?

[No pasarán]

No it was aimed at The Grey Blur.

Spent last night arguing with a loyalist family member I know quite well...It was a total head wreck..Just wondering what his real experiance of dealing with Loyalists is.

Yeah a good few of them are sort of "Left wing"...But its always out of loyality to the "British" working class and not the working class as a whole internationally. That makes their "socialism" pretty empty in my opinion.

I think its because loyalty to their community is so entrenched that they can't see they are being used to protect the intrests of others? I guess its just the slow process of prising them away from that?

On both sides religous fearmongering has kept people in religous ghettos to a large extent. I've had people in Ulster refer to my religous background as 'mixed' as though I'm mixed race and had to answer some pretty daft questions.

[Jolly Red Giant]

So why do you ignore this fact and act like they are raving, sectarian bigots?
I never suggested that any posters on this forum are 'raving, sectarian bigots' (at least not in a serious way).

The problem with left republicans has been and continues to be that they do not believe the strategy of individual terror / armed struggle was deeply flawed - and many consistantly describe anyone who refuses to support it either now or in the past as a 'raving sectarian loyalist'.

Now I will quite happily have a straight-forward, concrete and fraternal discussion with anyone on here on the issue of the national question in Ireland and the tactics and strategy necessary to defeat british Imperialism - if the attitude is reciprocated. But if there is repeatedly off the wall comments about what has happened in Northern Ireland and is continuing to happen in Northern Ireland, then expect it to get short shrift from me.


I think its because loyalty to their community is so entrenched that they can't see they are being used to protect the intrests of others? I guess its just the slow process of prising them away from that?
and this exists on both sides of the sectarian divide.


On both sides religous fearmongering has kept people in religous ghettos to a large extent.
And the reality is that this divide is increasing.

[LeninBalls]

II do not want "a catholic nation for a catholic people" (as DeValera said).

Where did he say that? I'm not sticking up for Dev but that's the first time I've ever heard that. I know Craigavon said Northern Ireland is "a Protestant state for a Protestant people".

[No pasarán]

Where did he say that? I'm not sticking up for Dev but that's the first time I've ever heard that. I know Craigavon said Northern Ireland is "a Protestant state for a Protestant people".

I'll try and source it, I've seen it used a lot though. I'm pretty sure the Craigavon's quote was response.

But the 1937 Constitution of Ireland did include "recognition of the "special position" of Roman Catholicism, which had for most of Britain's rule in Ireland been suppressed and discriminated against"

However I think he made some attempts Catholicisim couldn't exclusively be adopted as a state religion. Although it pretty much has been.

[No pasarán]

See Jolly Red Giant, when you make a post like that I can agree with most of what you are saying. But we are not having the craic down the pub. I am well aware you are often being sarcastic but you do needless antagonise people who might actually read your points more deeply sometimes. I also don't have rose tinted aviators about the republican community. My father raised me to try to look at the situation in his home with objective eyes with the cos he didn't want me to fall into the trap of either sides bigotry. Plus, his father was a catholic/southener who married into a protestant family (who admitably lived in a republican area and were mostly republican minded) so he'd already felt the pressures and the nature of the conservitive minds of many who live in ireland. But I was obviously brought up a republican and still see some justification for the armed revolt that was yet again attempted.

But yes I do realise its time to move on and to try reach out to 'the other side' (as patronising as that expression is) and see what progress can be made, rather than continue to let people tear each other apart. I also think we need a thread to discuss 'the irish question' rather than just turn every thread on something remotely republican into a slagging match.

[Starport]

And the reality is that this divide is increasing.

Do you have any examples as to how the divide is increasing and why that might be?

[Palingenisis]

Do you have any examples as to how the divide is increasing and why that might be?

"Peace walls" have doubled over the last ten years.

The occupied six counties has the lowest wages in the whole of the UK because of the crazy sectarian divide. When you go there after being a long time in the Free State or England it really hits you. Its a fucking nightmare that should not be taken as "just the way things are".

[Jolly Red Giant]

Where did he say that? I'm not sticking up for Dev but that's the first time I've ever heard that. I know Craigavon said Northern Ireland is "a Protestant state for a Protestant people".
While the hell can't people use google - it took me two minutes

1935 St. Patrick's Day address to the nation, de Valera - "Since the coming of St Patrick 1500 years ago Ireland has been a Christian and a Catholic nation" and, he concluded, "she will remain a Catholic nation".

http://www.pup-ni.org.uk/party/article_read.aspx?a=19

If you can trust the source.


It is referenced in Debating Divorce: Moral Conflict in Ireland by Michelle Dillon on page 22.

[The Grey Blur]

Do you have any examples as to how the divide is increasing and why that might be?
http://www.socialistdemocracy.org/News&AnalysisIreland/News&AnalysisIreSectarianismAndThePeaceProcess.htm

That's from 2002. There are now more peace walls than ever before, there are less people living in mixed estates than ever before. The GFA + St Andrew's agreements have institutionalised sectarianism, at every level. Public money is divided between catholic and protestant areas. Groups like the Orange Order receive state funding...I could go on.