glenn beck's the revolutionary holocaust

[communist72]

My father being a Right wing nut job worshiping Glenn Beck as if hes Jesus Christ himself made my mother who didnt know anything about Communism/Socialism watch this right wing bias trash and i have now lost my cccp flag my hammer sickle pins and necklace my copy of the Communist Manifesto becasue now i have two parents who refuse to let there son be a communist. i ask of you guys what can i say to atleast convice my mom that communism/Socialism is good and that Gleen Beck soiled what we are. my mom wont read the manifesto after watching Glenn Beck program. and mt dad keeps telling her how bad it is. i want any info i can give to her to help her see the good of communism

[Sasha]

become an anarchist? ;)

to be serious,
tell them that if they keep bullying you like this you are not only going to stay an commie for sure but that given the opertunity you escape the fuck to college/uni far way, potentialy break with them and not only will they lose their kid, them will also loose futere grandchildren etc.
oh and read some internet storys about gaypeople who had problems with their christian right parents, hopefully its should give you some pointers in handeling your folks if not it should at least comfort you in knowing that comming out commie is easy compared to the shit they had to endure.

[Martin Blank]

1. Marx and Engels were no more racist or anti-Semitic than Abraham Lincoln.

2. Many of the first people put into gulags by Bolsheviks were other communists who disagreed with their policies.

3. The first targets of the Nazis were communists and socialists, and the first concentration camps were for communists, socialists and unionists.

4. Mao's first targets were dissident communists and class-conscious workers in the cities of China.

5. The two main writers of the so-called "Black Book of Communism" disassociated themselves from the book because they accused the editor of inflating the numbers.

6. Even if the 100 million number was factually correct, it does not begin to hold up against the hundreds of millions killed by capitalism in the slave trade, the colonization of the Americas, Africa, Asia and Australasia (e.g., the genocide of Native Americans), wars of conquest, including the two World Wars, and environmental devastation such as Bhopal in India.

7. Some of the most important civil rights work was co-organized by socialists and communists, and some of the most socially-beneficial programs like Social Security, unemployment insurance, the minimum wage, the weekend off, sick time, vacations and employer-provided health insurance began as reform demands raised by socialists and communists.

8. Most of the content of Beck's show was a study in "lies by omission". He cherry-picked what fit his argument and refused to state the rest.

9. Most economists, left and right, acknowledge that Marx's analysis of capitalism was correct.

10. If Beck wants to hold all communists accountable for what Stalin or Mao did, then he should be held responsible for the Mormon church calling it a sin to be Black, or executing those who didn't agree with their sect's teachings, or promotion of the statutory rape of underage girls.

Those 10 ought to hold you for a while. There is also a thread in the Politics forum on this subject, too, that you might want to read.

[Nolan]

Get a hammer and sickle tat :D

[Nolan]

1. Marx and Engels were no more racist or anti-Semitic than Abraham Lincoln.

You mean at all?

[Q]

About the "100 million" two simple points:
1. Capitalism makes 30 000 children die worldwide due to malnutrition every single day. This is about 10 million a year. Even if we ignore all wars of the bloodiest century in human history, so far the 20th, that were waged in the name of capitalist expansion or imperialist competition for hegemony, then just this single number would still dwarf any crimes of the USSR, China or all other so-called socialist countries combined (assuming the number was correct in the first place).

2. Communism never existed in the first place. What existed in the USSR and elsewhere was a caricature of socialism: a planned economy controlled by a counter-revolutionary bureaucracy that was cut loose from any control by the working class and ruled over them via a totalitarian state apparatus. Any crimes should therefore be almost solely attributed to these regimes that were not communist whatsoever.

[Sasha]

further reading:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/disputation-revolutionary-holocaust-t127664/index.html

http://www.revleft.com/vb/racial-trash-t127754/index.html

[cska]

My father being a Right wing nut job worshiping Glenn Beck as if hes Jesus Christ himself made my mother who didnt know anything about Communism/Socialism watch this right wing bias trash and i have now lost my cccp flag my hammer sickle pins and necklace my copy of the Communist Manifesto becasue now i have two parents who refuse to let there son be a communist. i ask of you guys what can i say to atleast convice my mom that communism/Socialism is good and that Gleen Beck soiled what we are. my mom wont read the manifesto after watching Glenn Beck program. and mt dad keeps telling her how bad it is. i want any info i can give to her to help her see the good of communism

It isn't your mom's fault that she thinks communism is bad. I would suggest you give examples of why Glenn Beck is an idiot. The only one I have off the top of my head is him calling Obama racist. I'm sure some of the other people here can come up with more examples.

[Nwoye]

kill your parents and run away.

[Q]

kill your parents and run away.
This isn't chit-chat, so this post is not appropriate.

[communist72]

Thank you all of you who have gave me the info i need to battle this right wing house with shear knowledge and hopefully getting all of my stuff back from them. idc if they think im wrong i just want them to know the Right is wrong.:D

[(A)narcho-Matt]

first explain that the ussr, china north korea etc are not communist. you could also try showing them some of the youtube ideos which show that glenn beck is actually an idiot.

If all else fails tell them that glenn beck has a swastika tatoo on his right butt cheek.

[Chambered Word]

My father being a Right wing nut job worshiping Glenn Beck as if hes Jesus Christ himself made my mother who didnt know anything about Communism/Socialism watch this right wing bias trash and i have now lost my cccp flag my hammer sickle pins and necklace my copy of the Communist Manifesto becasue now i have two parents who refuse to let there son be a communist. i ask of you guys what can i say to atleast convice my mom that communism/Socialism is good and that Gleen Beck soiled what we are. my mom wont read the manifesto after watching Glenn Beck program. and mt dad keeps telling her how bad it is. i want any info i can give to her to help her see the good of communism

I see you're new here.

Sounds like it's getting plenty of attention and causing alot of problems in America. Some of us are currently deconstructing it and making a video to counter this bit of bullshit, so I'd be happy to link you to it so your mother can watch when it's done, but that won't be for a week or so I expect.

Until then, what to tell her?

Let her know that Glenn Beck has taken many of Marx's words out of context and in some cases purely lied about him and he never really said anything about 'racial trash' or a 'revolutionary holocaust'.

Ernesto 'Che' Guevara was ordered by Castro to purge the Batistan army (i.e the ranks of a military dictatorship) of war criminals, which he did. Many soldiers as well as Batista himself were allowed to leave Cuba freely. He did not kill anywhere near as many people as the video claimed (14 thousand if I remember correctly).

Stalin had a good reason to sign the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact with Hitler. Although many of his actions were inexcusable and he was indeed responsible for genocide, the Red Army had just been purged and Stalin was not ready by any means to counter a Nazi invasion. He had actually been planning to invade Germany before Hitler broke the pact but did not have the resources for such an endeavour. So while most leftists do not see Stalin as a true socialist Glenn Beck has certainly slandered Stalin unfairly. You could just tell your mother you aren't a Stalinist anyway, Beck makes it out to be that leftists are all Stalinists, which could not be further from the truth (I love how he never mentions Leon Trotsky).

The whole documentary was pretty much full of lies, quote mining (taking words out of context) and unwarranted assumptions about socialism.

Practically no leftists support eugenics; on the contrary, we detest it. George Bernard Shaw does not speak for the rest of us and to my knowledge he has never contributed a thing to leftist theory. So he is pretty much a nonfactor. If he had spoken about the capitalist class in particular I would agreed with him more; considering the capitalists steal money that is rightfully ours and control us, they really are bloody useless leeches. Maybe you should point out to your mother that he could have just as well been talking about so-called 'welfare queens' and wanting to kill them for not producing as much as they consume.

Ask your mother to just hear us out. And tell your dad to educate himself instead of listening to Glenn Beck's propaganda.

[communist72]

lol yes i am new here. i have learn about communism through communist manifesto and i am proud to say i support communism. my father is a smart man he knows alot about history maybe if i could actully find the books or info i need to show what glenn beck said was just quote mining and my mother i know will watch the video you guys make i will happily love to watch it myself. until then im stuck here in my right wing home.
thank you all of you

[communist72]

first explain that the ussr, china north korea etc are not communist.
I'm confused on the ussr wasnt communist i thought they were in ww2 or were they socialist? and i thought all three were communist.

boy have my eyes just opened up lol

[mastershake16]

My parents saw this too!
They don't know I'm checking out communism or anything but even if they did
they wouldn't care. I would just laugh at them.

This documentary is going to be the new handbook for anti-communism

[Q]

I'm confused on the ussr wasnt communist i thought they were in ww2 or were they socialist? and i thought all three were communist.

boy have my eyes just opened up lol
These regimes never claimed to be communist actually, but socialist (which is a transitionary phase between capitalism and communism). But I wouldn't even say this is very correct. They had/have planned economies, with progressive features (free healthcare and education, guarantee to have a job, etc.), but these economies function(ed) to privilege a bureaucratic elite before any workers got to see the fruits of their labour.

[~Spectre]

A famous Chomsky quote might be able to help you out with your parents:

"When the world's two great propaganda systems agree on some doctrine, it requires some intellectual effort to escape its shackles. One such doctrine is that the society created by Lenin and Trotsky and molded further by Stalin and his successors has some relation to socialism in some meaningful or historically accurate sense of this concept. In fact, if there is a relation, it is the relation of contradiction. It is clear enough why both major propaganda systems insist upon this fantasy. Since its origins, the Soviet State has attempted to harness the energies of its own population and oppressed people elsewhere in the service of the men who took advantage of the popular ferment in Russia in 1917 to seize State power. One major ideological weapon employed to this end has been the claim that the State managers are leading their own society and the world towards the socialist ideal; an impossibility, as any socialist -- surely any serious Marxist -- should have understood at once (many did), and a lie of mammoth proportions as history has revealed since the earliest days of the Bolshevik regime. The taskmasters have attempted to gain legitimacy and support by exploiting the aura of socialist ideals and the respect that is rightly accorded them, to conceal their own ritual practice as they destroyed every vestige of socialism.
As for the world's second major propaganda system, association of socialism with the Soviet Union and its clients serves as a powerful ideological weapon to enforce conformity and obedience to the State capitalist institutions, to ensure that the necessity to rent oneself to the owners and managers of these institutions will be regarded as virtually a natural law, the only alternative to the 'socialist' dungeon.
The Soviet leadership thus portrays itself as socialist to protect its right to wield the club, and Western ideologists adopt the same pretense in order to forestall the threat of a more free and just society. This joint attack on socialism has been highly effective in undermining it in the modern period."

[communist72]

ok i understand what is written now and my father is just like beck he see all communist as stalinist.
but in the mockumentry i thought they said stalin turned it into a totaliarn goverment.

and on a releted note can anyone also help me show my goverment teacher who hates communism with a passion show that im not a stalinist as he likes to call me . btw thats my nickname in his class is stalin. anyways hes red moas red book and yet has never opened the communist manifesto until i brought it with me to class to read. i just am tired of all this anti-communism ive been asked to remove my necklace in school and my pins and my hammer and sickle i made in mt CADD lab that is on my bookbag i feel like they think i have a swatistca on my forehead

[cska]

ok i understand what is written now and my father is just like beck he see all communist as stalinist.
but in the mockumentry i thought they said stalin turned it into a totaliarn goverment.

and on a releted note can anyone also help me show my goverment teacher who hates communism with a passion show that im not a stalinist as he likes to call me . btw thats my nickname in his class is stalin. anyways hes red moas red book and yet has never opened the communist manifesto until i brought it with me to class to read. i just am tired of all this anti-communism ive been asked to remove my necklace in school and my pins and my hammer and sickle i made in mt CADD lab that is on my bookbag i feel like they think i have a swatistca on my forehead

They made you remove your necklace in school? That would be unconstitutional. They can't tell you what to wear or what not to wear as long as it isn't obscene, especially if you are making a political statement.

[Chambered Word]

lol yes i am new here. i have learn about communism through communist manifesto and i am proud to say i support communism. my father is a smart man he knows alot about history maybe if i could actully find the books or info i need to show what glenn beck said was just quote mining and my mother i know will watch the video you guys make i will happily love to watch it myself. until then im stuck here in my right wing home.
thank you all of you

Alright, just let her know we'll have something up soon, and she'll learn the truth about the documentary.

If you want some quote mining examples, here you go:

Beck says 'Sometimes it's hard to tell Hitler and Marx apart. Who wrote that Germany's neighbours should accept the "...physical and intellectual power of the German nation to subdue, absorb, and assimilate its ancient eastern neighbors..."

TRUTH: He did not say they should accept this. The real quote is such:

"The history of a thousand years ought to have shown them that such a retrogression was impossible; that if all the territory east of the Elbe and Saale had at one time been occupied by kindred Slavonians, this fact merely proved the historical tendency, and at the same time physical and intellectual power of the German nation to subdue, absorb, and assimilate its ancient eastern neighbors; that this tendency of absorption on the part of the Germans had always been, and still was one of the mightiest means by which the civilization of Western Europe had been spread in the east of that continent; that it could only cease whenever the process of Germanization had reached the frontier of large, compact, unbroken nations, capable of an independent national life, such as the Hungarians, and in some degree the roles: and that, therefore, the natural and inevitable fate of these dying nations was to allow this process of dissolution and absorption by their stronger neighbors to complete itself."

This was a quote from 'Revolution and Counter Revolution'. Marx was basically saying, from a historical perspective, that the Slavic people would likely be absorbed by the powerful German nation. He was saying that it was inevitable that this would happen to the less advanced societies.

Beck says '...but they acknowledged that there were still "primitive societies" that hadn't even evolved into capitalists yet. They called them "racial trash".'

TRUTH: The word that was used by Friedrich Engels in this example was 'Völkerabfälle', which apparently meant something more like 'residual fragments of people' or 'the flotsam of society'. There was no 'racial' element in it, although it was by no means a politically correct term.

Beck says 'As the revolution happens "the classes and races, too weak to master the new conditions of life, must give way."

TRUTH: This has been, as you might expect, taken out of context. The full quote is such:

"Now I share neither in the opinions of Ricardo, who regards ‘Net-Revenue’ as the Moloch to whom entire populations must be sacrificed, without even so much as complaint, nor in the opinion of Sismondi, who, in his hypochondriacal philanthropy, would forcibly retain the superannuated methods of agriculture and proscribe science from industry, as Plato expelled poets from his Republic. Society is undergoing a silent revolution, which must be submitted to, and which takes no more notice of the human existences it breaks down than an earthquake regards the houses it subverts. The classes and the races, too weak to master the new conditions of life, must give way. But can there be anything more puerile, more short-sighted, than the views of those Economists who believe in all earnest that this woeful transitory state means nothing but adapting society to the acquisitive propensities of capitalists, both landlords and money-lords?"

Evidently Marx is speaking of the capitalist revolution when he speaks of a 'silent revolution'. When you read the full quote and not just the part taken out by Glenn Beck it seems he is speaking of capitalist development.

As a side note, the communist Leon Trotsky did not believe capitalism was even a necessary stage at all, but that's a different matter.

Beck says: 'There is only one thing left for those too far behind in the process of societal evolution: "the chief mission of all other races and peoples, large and small, is to perish in the revolutionary holocaust."'

TRUTH: Most of this quote is a fabrication and was never said by Karl Marx, it was infact by Friedrich Engels. The word 'holocaust' was not used and did not come to gain its meaning until decades after the deaths of Marx and Engels.

The real quote:

"All the earlier history of Austria up to the present day is proof of this
and 1848 confi rmed it. Among all the large and small nations of Austria,
only three standard-bearers of progress took an active part in history, and still
retain their vitality — the Germans, the Poles and the Magyars. Hence they
are now revolutionary.
All the other large and small nationalities and peoples are destined to perish
before long in the revolutionary world storm. For that reason they are now
counter-revolutionary...
There is no country in Europe which does not have in some corner or other one
or several ruined fragments of peoples, the remnant of a former population that
was suppressed and held in bondage by the nation which later became the main
vehicle of historical development. These relics of a nation mercilessly trampled
under foot in the course of history, as Hegel says, these residual fragments
of peoples always become fanatical standard-bearers of counter-revolution and
remain so until their complete extirpation or loss of their national character,
just as their whole existence in general is itself a protest against a great historical
revolution.
Such, in Scotland, are the Gaels, the supporters of the Stuarts from 1640
to 1745.
Such, in France, are the Bretons, the supporters of the Bourbons from
1792 to 1800.
Such, in Spain, are the Basques, the supporters of Don Carlos.
Such, in Austria, are the pan-Slavist Southern Slavs, who are nothing
but the residual fragment of peoples, resulting from an extremely confused
thousand years of development. That this residual fragment, which is likewise
extremely confused, sees its salvation only in a reversal of the whole European
movement..."

Engels would have come under much criticism for saying this today, although he was for the most part correct. IIRC these 'residual fragments of peoples' did not develop very far compared to the Germans and Poles. There was nothing racist about this quote at all, and it did not speak of a 'revolutionary holocaust', or call for mass murder. It was a historical prediction.

There are plenty more examples of absolute bullshitting but I'll leave you with this for now.

Hope everything goes well for you comrade and maybe you'd like to come and talk on RevLeft more. :)

[communist72]

my necklace my pins my che shirt i had UNDER my uniform shirt i have to wear. it was only cause the star on che hat was showing

[(A)narcho-Matt]

I'm confused on the ussr wasnt communist i thought they were in ww2 or were they socialist? and i thought all three were communist.

boy have my eyes just opened up lol

China is a free market capitalist country with an authoritarian regieme in power, it has never been communist, North Korea is a personal kingdom for the dictatorship of kim jong il.

Whilst there was a socialist revolution in Russia in 1917, it stopped being socialist as soon as the bolsheviks took control and crushed any opertunity for workers control. Instead the bolsheviks took control of the bourgoeis state and the power was removed from the workers and placed in the hands of the party burocracy.

Communism has never existed.

[communist72]

so true communism has never exsited in our world only socialism then dictatorship or captlism comes back is that. is that what you are saying cause that would make more sence to me

[cska]

so true communism has never exsited in our world only socialism then dictatorship or captlism comes back is that. is that what you are saying cause that would make more sence to me

Yup, essentially. However, we do have pretty good examples of communism in many primitive cultures, such as some of the Native American tribes before they were decimated. It is similar to how we have never had a truly free market, since intellectual property and market entry costs prevent true competition.

Nevertheless, as much as the USSR wasn't communist, it still was significantly socialist. I don't like to partition everything into black and white communist and capitalist.

[communist72]

ok thank you my kind sire
well guys i was just talking about that crap program and hows beck quote mining makes us look bad and he said i musta got it from a left wing communist source.
and so now im wrong cause ive gotten info from those who have the full quote that beck would use only piece of to make us look like killers.

[(A)narcho-Matt]

so true communism has never exsited in our world only socialism then dictatorship or captlism comes back is that. is that what you are saying cause that would make more sence to me


Yeh pretty much, thats because socialist want to use the state to build socialism and then move to communism. This use of the state allows for a small party elite to take power away from the working class, and so a sate capitalist dictatorship will follow, as happened in the USSR. Communism can only be achieved through the total destruction of the state.

[Nolan]

These regimes never claimed to be communist actually, but socialist (which is a transitionary phase between capitalism and communism). But I wouldn't even say this is very correct. They had/have planned economies, with progressive features (free healthcare and education, guarantee to have a job, etc.), but these economies function(ed) to privilege a bureaucratic elite before any workers got to see the fruits of their labour.

That's really a baseless claim. I see all kind of people say such things, but they never provide proof.

That may have been the case after the USSR was solidly revisionist.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I only watched one segment (the opening one), but I guess I'll repost what I posted in the Chit Chat thread:


The documentary was silly. And dishonest, especially the one part I watched straight through (Nazi Germany-socialism comparisons). He didn't even talk about the SA, Ernst Rohm or the Night of the Long Knives, and that seems pretty damn important when you're speaking about the Nazis wishing to "abolish capitalism".

And when he talked about the German Communists allying with the Nazis on some things, he neglected to mention that the KPD was at war with the SPD at the time. Their cooperation was based on a petty political struggle, not on ideological common ground. Again, that seems pretty important to mention, but I guess he was allergic to context.

It's definitely a fine work of cherry-picking he did.

[cska]

The Nazis were as socialist as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is democratic...

[communist72]

I cant say enough how much i thank yuo for all you guys are doing for me ill spread this site to my in-communist training buddy at school to learn more

[Kwisatz Haderach]

ok thank you my kind sire
well guys i was just talking about that crap program and hows beck quote mining makes us look bad and he said i musta got it from a left wing communist source.
Explain that all communist quotes must, by definition, come from a communist source. Otherwise they're not communist quotes, are they? Glenn Beck got his quotes from communist sources too - he just butchered them and took them out of context.

[Q]

That's really a baseless claim. I see all kind of people say such things, but they never provide proof.

That may have been the case after the USSR was solidly revisionist.
I don't buy the idea that the USSR became "revisionist" after Stalin died, that is simplistic and unscientific. The Revolution Betrayed (http://marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/index.htm) by Trotsky offers a good analysis on how the Soviet Union degenerated into a totalitarian dictatorship.

The point of communism is to free humanity from class society and its strictures. Socialism, as a transitionary system, offers a society in which the working class is directly in power within the context of a degenerating class society and which offers a higher standard of living than capitalism ever has, thusly making it able to solve the social problems of capitalism. The USSR only partly managed to achieve this but failed precisely because it had a counter-revolution very early on that brought to power a bureaucracy that killed off any democratic working class management over society.

[Chambered Word]

ok thank you my kind sire
well guys i was just talking about that crap program and hows beck quote mining makes us look bad and he said i musta got it from a left wing communist source.
and so now im wrong cause ive gotten info from those who have the full quote that beck would use only piece of to make us look like killers.

Tell him to go and look at the fucking quote for himself if he doesn't believe you. "Oh well the truth is from a communist source, I won't bother reading it, it must be biased!" What the fuck, man?

[communist72]

Tell him to go and look at the fucking quote for himself if he doesn't believe you. "Oh well the truth is from a communist source, I won't bother reading it, it must be biased!" What the fuck, man?
Dude welcome to my world. that man would kiss the ground beck walks on. he has becks dick so far up his ass he enjoys it. he will think its jsut some "crap" someone on here wrote if i showed from this site. trust me this man would take a bullet for Beck.

[Nolan]

I don't buy the idea that the USSR became "revisionist" after Stalin died, that is simplistic and unscientific. The Revolution Betrayed (http://marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/index.htm) by Trotsky offers a good analysis on how the Soviet Union degenerated into a totalitarian dictatorship.

What would you call the secret speech and the following policies then? It really reached its climax when Gorbachev took power.


The point of communism is to free humanity from class society and its strictures. Socialism, as a transitionary system, offers a society in which the working class is directly in power within the context of a degenerating class society and which offers a higher standard of living than capitalism ever has, thusly making it able to solve the social problems of capitalism. The USSR only partly managed to achieve this but failed precisely because it had a counter-revolution very early on that brought to power a bureaucracy that killed off any democratic working class management over society.

This is overly simplistic. Classic lines. It sickens me that this kind of bs is circulated on a Revolutionary leftist site mostly unchecked.

[RadioRaheem84]

You want to prove to your parents that the USSR was not truly communist? Get a copy of Free to Choose by Milton Friedman at the library (don't waste your money on this crap) and open it up to the first chapter, in the first three pages, even Friedman debunks the myth that the USSR was really a planned Communist economy. It operated very much like a capitalist nation that was nationalized and bureaucratized.

Geez, why does the USSR have so much clout over one's decision to be a socialist in the US? George Orwell fought along side the Anarchist in Catalonia and was even shot at by Stalinists and witnessed the worst of Soviet sponsored terror and aggression against the Anarchists and he was still a Socialist until his death! Members of Solidarity Trade Union remained Socialist and Social Democratic even though they were persecuted by the USSR itself! The Iraqi Trade Unions were punished by the supposed "socialist" Stalin Loving Baath Party yet they still remain fiercly socialist.

Yet, people are supposed to give up their hopes for a better future and a socialism because of the USSR and some totalitarian gangster regimes? The entire world is fucking capitalist and I don't see right wingers giving up their hopes in the free market because third world despots allow for the exploitation of labor in their nations.

[I Can Has Communism]

I don't buy the idea that the USSR became "revisionist" after Stalin died, that is simplistic and unscientific.Of course such a view is simplistic and unscientific and thus is not held by any anti-revisionist. If you're interested in debating the real anti-revisionist theory about the Soviet Union, I'd recommend you read some AR literature.

[Nolan]

You want to prove to your parents that the USSR was not truly communist? Get a copy of Free to Choose by Milton Friedman at the library (don't waste your money on this crap) and open it up to the first chapter, in the first three pages, even Friedman debunks the myth that the USSR was really a planned Communist economy. It operated very much like a capitalist nation that was nationalized and bureaucratized.

How fucking reactionary can you get? You've just raised the bar for revisionism.

[Chambered Word]

Dude welcome to my world. that man would kiss the ground beck walks on. he has becks dick so far up his ass he enjoys it. he will think its jsut some "crap" someone on here wrote if i showed from this site. trust me this man would take a bullet for Beck.

Then tell him to look up the actual sources where Marx and Engels have said it, because I guarantee he will find that Beck is lying through his teeth.

[communist72]

Then tell him to look up the actual sources where Marx and Engels have said it, because I guarantee he will find that Beck is lying through his teeth.
if he read that stuff hed either just be like ok so he said it shorter insted of saying the whole quote or hed tell me its in the internet and it coulda been alterd
and i am not making that shit up its a true story

[Klaatu]

"My father being a Right wing nut job worshiping Glenn Beck as if hes Jesus Christ himself"

Beck is an alcoholic with no college education. He thinks he is an expert in economics, political science,
and human behavior. He is an expert in one thing, all right, and one thing only: bullshitting.

[RadioRaheem84]

How fucking reactionary can you get? You've just raised the bar for revisionism.

I was telling him to get a copy of a right wing source that even states that the USSR was far from the Communist state that it made it self out to be. I was going under the assumption that his father probably believed the USSR to be this backward wasteland in which the State oversaw every aspect of everyone's life in and out of the economy. In the book, Friedman describes that this is far from the case and that on top of the state sector there was a lot more trade going on in other sectors and people were able to make due going in and out of the state and private economy. It was far more complex than what right wingers usually give it credit for.

[communist72]

"My father being a Right wing nut job worshiping Glenn Beck as if hes Jesus Christ himself"

Beck is an alcoholic with no college education. He thinks he is an expert in economics, political science,
and human behavior. He is an expert in one thing, all right, and one thing only: bullshitting.
lol i coulda told ya that buddy haha:D

[Nwoye]

Dude welcome to my world. that man would kiss the ground beck walks on. he has becks dick so far up his ass he enjoys it. he will think its jsut some "crap" someone on here wrote if i showed from this site. trust me this man would take a bullet for Beck.
I know you're new here but can you cut it with the homophobia.

btw do you really live in Defiance Ohio? If so I'm deeply sorry.

[Chambered Word]

if he read that stuff hed either just be like ok so he said it shorter insted of saying the whole quote or hed tell me its in the internet and it coulda been alterd
and i am not making that shit up its a true story

Well Beck has put his on the television, it could have (and has been) altered.

Tell your father he's being intellectually lazy. For fuck's sake, tell him to get his hands on an original English translation of Marx's and Engels' writings and see the quotes for himself.

And Glenn Beck didn't just say it shorter, he completely distorted the meaning by taking them right out of context and sometimes outright fabricating quotes.

For example, I could say "You can always just say 'let's just let the Jews be killed by the Nazis, who cares, it doesn't affect me'. But then you are disregarding human life whether it affects you or not, and that is immoral by any standards."

Somebody could then take "You can always just say 'let's just let the Jews be killed by the Nazis, who cares, it doesn't affect me'," and quoting me as having said that without giving the context, and I would look like a Nazi sympathizer and an anti-Semite, when I actually am not when you put it in the context.

You say your father's smart, but to be honest I really do not believe you. :sleep:

Basically, tell him to stop being so intellectually lazy and dismissing everything that he doesn't agree with as being 'changed' or 'altered' or 'unreliable'. Tell him that if he's so concerned about the internet altering everything he can go and find the original translations of the texts by Marx and Engels instead of listening to a paid propagandist for a right-wing 'news' station who takes quotes completely out of context and comes up with complete fabrications about history and Marxism.

EDIT: "I know you're new here but can you cut it with the homophobia."

Not every single last fucking sentence that refers to gay sex is homophobic for heaven's sake. :rolleyes:

[RadioRaheem84]

Beck is an alcoholic with no college education. He thinks he is an expert in economics, political science,
and human behavior. He is an expert in one thing, all right, and one thing only: bullshitting.

Whenever he gets called out on his shit he uses the whole "I am rodeo clown, an entertainer" bit, but whenever he gets to ranting about the evils of Socialism, he wants to "get serious about history". :rolleyes:

[communist72]

I know you're new here but can you cut it with the homophobia.

btw do you really live in Defiance Ohio? If so I'm deeply sorry.
sorry im not trying to homophobia i was jsut using it to say and yes i do live in defiance ohio nothing but racist chirstains anti-communist old people and wiggers where i live i goto a high school (well did to i want to a vocatinal school) where if you didn't play football your sport is either un-important or not worth the schools money. and if your the football players sleep in any class you choose as long as you win youll get an A+.
trust me im moving asap soon as i can

[communist72]

[QUOTE=
You say your father's smart, but to be honest I really do not believe you. :sleep:
[/QUOTE]
he is very smart trust me that man knows more about everything but Communism than id ever learn

hes forgotten more than ive learn and the man is only 38 but he is very smart
he just to stubburn to see how glenn beck is wrong

and that you for the homo statement :cool:

[Chambered Word]

he is very smart trust me that man knows more about everything but Communism than id ever learn

hes forgotten more than ive learn and the man is only 38 but he is very smart
he just to stubburn to see how glenn beck is wrong

and that you for the homo statement :cool:

He obviously knows nothing about communism, or he probably would be a communist. Sorry. :lol:

Anyone who dismisses everything on the internet because it could be 'altered' isn't too bright.

[Klaatu]

The big reason that Beck, Limbaugh, and the Fox News cabal exists in the first place is the horrible lack of educational level in the U.S. These talking heads (and the pathetic right wing politicians they recommend) are the epitome of the sorry state of education in this country. As an educator myself, I am appalled, for example, of the fact that 70% (SEVENTY PERCENT) of Detroit 4th-graders failed a state math test. (WTF???)

Do right wingers actually WANT people to be dumb? Wait, don't answer that...

[#FF0000]

Here's my advice.

Stop trying to make every single person around you "See the light". Most people aren't going to be convinced and it doesn't help if you have a reputation of being someone who likes to pick political arguments and preach. It makes you look like a fanatic.

That might not necessarily be what you're doing, but it's good to remember either way.

And secondly, when it comes to developing your understanding of leftism, criticize absolutely everything you believe. Think critically, analyze critically, and don't base anything you ever believe on how you feel. Don't just read communist things or look into communist theory or philosophy.

It's perfectly okay to be wrong. Never rule out the possibility of it.

Remember all of that and live by it and you'll get better and better by developing some sense and critical thinking skills. Then people will be more likely to listen to you and easier to sway because you won't sound like the typical rebellious teenager.

[Nwoye]

sorry im not trying to homophobia i was jsut using it to say
I understand, it's just that insulting someone by saying they have so and so's dick up their ass is effectively using homosexuality as a insult, and that's something we should most certainly avoid.


yes i do live in defiance ohio nothing but racist chirstains anti-communist old people and wiggers where i live i goto a high school (well did to i want to a vocatinal school) where if you didn't play football your sport is either un-important or not worth the schools money. and if your the football players sleep in any class you choose as long as you win youll get an A+.
trust me im moving asap soon as i can
I live pretty close by so I definitely get where you're coming from, but the bolded part is again troubling. Describing someone who dresses or acts a certain way as a white nigger is equating that manner of dress etc (typical of working class black men) with being black and as being a phenomenon which is or should be exclusive to black men. That's a rather racist sentiment and one which should be eradicated.

[communist72]

Here's my advice.

Stop trying to make every single person around you "See the light". Most people aren't going to be convinced and it doesn't help if you have a reputation of being someone who likes to pick political arguments and preach. It makes you look like a fanatic.

That might not necessarily be what you're doing, but it's good to remember either way.

And secondly, when it comes to developing your understanding of leftism, criticize absolutely everything you believe. Think critically, analyze critically, and don't base anything you ever believe on how you feel. Don't just read communist things or look into communist theory or philosophy.

It's perfectly okay to be wrong. Never rule out the possibility of it.

Remember all of that and live by it and you'll get better and better by developing some sense and critical thinking skills. Then people will be more likely to listen to you and easier to sway because you won't sound like the typical rebellious teenager.
i always criticize i dont think if its not left its wrong like my father and his right wing ways. ive read many of his books he owns even bill o'riely book about himself which was a bore. hell i watch Glenn Beck wiht my dad sometimes jsut to learn more things im trying really hard to not look like im just a rebeloius teen im trying to look like a communist

[Klaatu]

Here's my advice.

Stop trying to make every single person around you "See the light". Most people aren't going to be convinced and it doesn't help if you have a reputation of being someone who likes to pick political arguments and preach. It makes you look like a fanatic.

That might not necessarily be what you're doing, but it's good to remember either way.

And secondly, when it comes to developing your understanding of leftism, criticize absolutely everything you believe. Think critically, analyze critically, and don't base anything you ever believe on how you feel. Don't just read communist things or look into communist theory or philosophy.

It's perfectly okay to be wrong. Never rule out the possibility of it.

Remember all of that and live by it and you'll get better and better by developing some sense and critical thinking skills. Then people will be more likely to listen to you and easier to sway because you won't sound like the typical rebellious teenager.

That is a very scientific approach.

[Chambered Word]

I understand, it's just that insulting someone by saying they have so and so's dick up their ass is effectively using homosexuality as a insult, and that's something we should most certainly avoid.

He's simply stating that his father is deeply in love with Glenn Beck and perhaps has sexual desire for him. You could say that of any two people and it would still probably be insulting.

[communist72]

He's simply stating that his father is deeply in love with Glenn Beck and perhaps has sexual desire for him. You could say that of any two people and it would still probably be insulting.
thank you my kind sir i do believe my dad proably does have some sort of sexual desire for my father haha

[Klaatu]

He's simply stating that his father is deeply in love with Glenn Beck and perhaps has sexual desire for him. You could say that of any two people and it would still probably be insulting.

Isn't it a phenomenon that a lot of voters are swayed by a speaker's charisma, rather than truth and common sense. I have observed that Beck, et al, often seem to exhibit the same personality traits of dictators such as Hitler, Saddam Hussein, etc...

[Chambered Word]

Isn't it a phenomenon that a lot of voters are swayed by a speaker's charisma, rather than truth and common sense. I have observed that Beck, et al, often seem to exhibit the same personality traits of dictators such as Hitler, Saddam Hussein, etc...

Kinda true, but he'd say the same about Obama. Hell, they're all bullshit artists who have charisma and no real substance, so what do you expect.

[Q]

What would you call the secret speech and the following policies then? It really reached its climax when Gorbachev took power.
Stalinism (http://marxists.org/glossary/terms/s/t.htm#stalinism) is not merely a cult of persona around J. Stalin, although that was a feature of it when Trotsky wrote about it. To quote MIA:


First and foremost, Stalinism must be understood as the politics of a political stratum. Specifically, Stalinism is the politics of the bureaucracy that hovers over a workers' state. Its first manifestation was in the Soviet Union, where Stalinism arose when sections of the bureaucracy began to express their own interests against those of the working class, which had created the workers' state through revolution to serve its class interests. The "secret speech" by Khrushchev and the climax you speak of by Gorbachev were not "revisionist" as compared to Stalin, but opportunist steps by an established bureaucracy. They were logical consequences of a bureaucratic counter-revolution. They continued the rule of the bureaucratic elite rather than change or oppose it.


This is overly simplistic. Classic lines. It sickens me that this kind of bs is circulated on a Revolutionary leftist site mostly unchecked.You're not doing a good job of "checking me" so far, instead you make some personal stabs. This is a weak bid.


Of course such a view is simplistic and unscientific and thus is not held by any anti-revisionist. If you're interested in debating the real anti-revisionist theory about the Soviet Union, I'd recommend you read some AR literature.
I did and I do think I paraphrased the stance of the anti-revisionists just nicely. You are of course free to argue with me.

[Chambered Word]

Stalinism (http://marxists.org/glossary/terms/s/t.htm#stalinism) is not merely a cult of persona around J. Stalin, although that was a feature of it when Trotsky wrote about it. To quote MIA:

The "secret speech" by Khrushchev and the climax you speak of by Gorbachev were not "revisionist" as compared to Stalin, but opportunist steps by an established bureaucracy. They were logical consequences of a bureaucratic counter-revolution. They continued the rule of the bureaucratic elite rather than change or oppose it.

You're not doing a good job of "checking me" so far, instead you make some personal stabs. This is a weak bid.


I did and I do think I paraphrased the stance of the anti-revisionists just nicely. You are of course free to argue with me.

Wrong thread?

[Q]

It went a bit off topic, yes :)

[I Can Has Communism]

I did and I do think I paraphrased the stance of the anti-revisionists just nicely. You are of course free to argue with me. You're the one mischaracterizing anti-revisionist thought. Provide some sources for your false statements or withdraw them.

[NecroCommie]

Don't give their oppinions any credibility by humouring them and their arguments. This should give you a certain kind of psychological advantage. I do this with my parents, although I admit they are social democrats.

[RadioRaheem84]

Do right wingers actually WANT people to be dumb? Wait, don't answer that...

Right Wingers want the media to reflect patriotism and if that means skewering the truth, than so be it. The only reason they see the media as bias is because it's not nationalistic enough. It's always portraying the US in a "bad light". Well what they want is good news all the time.

[Q]

You're the one mischaracterizing anti-revisionist thought. Provide some sources for your false statements or withdraw them.
Provide some arguments for my "mis-characterization" or withdraw your attacks.

See, I can do that too. I'm not even sure why you get Thanks' for your empty posts.


Don't give their oppinions any credibility by humouring them and their arguments. This should give you a certain kind of psychological advantage. I do this with my parents, although I admit they are social democrats.

I agree. Don't argue against rightwingers on their terms, it gives them the advantage of fighting on home grounds, so to speak. This is why I'm opposed to refuting Glenn Beck's video directly.

[RadioRaheem84]

I agree. Don't argue against rightwingers on their terms, it gives them the advantage of fighting on home grounds, so to speak. This is why I'm opposed to refuting Glenn Beck's video directly.Yes. Right wingers have a set of presuppositions that will just baffle you to no end. They have no foundational basis of politics, economics and history; basically no sense of reality. I mean how are you supposed to argue with someone who sets up the rules and those rules are so illogical and inconsistent that its nearly impossible to start from any one premise.

When I talk to my raging conservative gf's father, he doesn't know the first thing about economics, finance and politics (ironically he owns a pretty successful construction company). I cannot even begin to have a casual conversation with him about anything because there is no foundation for us to begin. He think that the United States is prosperous because of its economic system (true to an extent) but he doesn't believe it's because of economic hegemony, just sheer ingenuity. That means he doesn't know a thing about the IMF, World Bank, trade policies and agreements, sweatshop labor, speculative financial growth, globalization, Keynesianism, neo-liberalism, extraction of other nations resources, post-colonization, Cold War facts, etc.

With this much missing from the debate, it's no wonder most Americans and right wingers consider any criticism of the US, conspiracy theories, liberal bias or lies. There has been so much informational supression that any amount of truth is coming out of left field.

[Martin Blank]

You're the one mischaracterizing anti-revisionist thought. Provide some sources for your false statements or withdraw them.


Provide some arguments for my "mis-characterization" or withdraw your attacks.

Get a room, you two. (Translation: Take the off-topic conversation to its own place before I get pissed off and split the thread. :cool: )


Yes. Right wingers have a set of presuppositions that will just baffle you to no end. They have no foundational basis of politics, economics and history; basically no sense of reality. I mean how are you supposed to argue with someone who sets up the rules and those rules are so illogical and inconsistent that its nearly impossible to start from any one premise.

Rightwingers run on moral outrage of one form or another. That is their method. It's the flip side of the pragmatic coin -- the "tails" to pragmatism's "heads" (pragmatism being the most common of bourgeois ideology in the U.S.). It is a non-scientific method that sees conditions as eternal and unchangeable; the differences come in over what governs the basis of what is "eternal" and what is not.

For the pragmatist, the "eternal" element is what currently exists, or what has existed in recent history. Thus, liberal pragmatists can argue for a "New New Deal" and retain their pragmatic outlook by saying they are advocating "what works". The moralists' "eternal" element is their foundation in religion and the precepts that stem from that. Thus, for the moralist, "what works" is what existed at the time their "eternal" principles were established: Biblical times, more often than not.

They are left field and right field, yes, but they're still in the same philosophical ballpark. If you keep that in mind, then you can find opportunities to twist them around in an argument and ultimately defeat them.

[Chambered Word]

Don't give their oppinions any credibility by humouring them and their arguments. This should give you a certain kind of psychological advantage. I do this with my parents, although I admit they are social democrats.

I don't want a psychological advantage. I just want people to wake up and stop believing wankers like Glenn Beck. I want to at least show them that he's not infallible.

[Chambered Word]

It went a bit off topic, yes :)

Sorry, I thought you'd completely posted it in a different thread by accident. :blushing:

[Weezer]

How fucking reactionary can you get? You've just raised the bar for revisionism.

:laugh:

[Klaatu]

Kinda true, but he'd say the same about Obama. Hell, they're all bullshit artists who have charisma and no real substance, so what do you expect.

Well, I dunno... Obama is not dishing out hate speech nor calling for anyone to fail, nor hoping for the destruction of people he does not
agree with.

A lot of people are calling Obama a Socialist, but I think he is as far from Socialism as I am from being crowned the King of England...

I saw an Oprah show on Danish Socialism, and I was truly impressed with the type of system which our good Danish and Swedish neighbors have invented. Come to think of it, why do Beck, Limbaugh, et al, condemn European Socialism so much? Answer: BECAUSE THEY WOULD NEVER MAKE THEIR MILLIONS ($$$) UNDER SUCH A SYSTEM, THAT IS WHY!!

Now, how bad can that possibly be??

[Klaatu]

Rightwingers run on moral outrage of one form or another. That is their method. It's the flip side of the pragmatic coin -- the "tails" to pragmatism's "heads" (pragmatism being the most common of bourgeois ideology in the U.S.). It is a non-scientific method that sees conditions as eternal and unchangeable; the differences come in over what governs the basis of what is "eternal" and what is not.

For the pragmatist, the "eternal" element is what currently exists, or what has existed in recent history. Thus, liberal pragmatists can argue for a "New New Deal" and retain their pragmatic outlook by saying they are advocating "what works". The moralists' "eternal" element is their foundation in religion and the precepts that stem from that. Thus, for the moralist, "what works" is what existed at the time their "eternal" principles were established: Biblical times, more often than not.

They are left field and right field, yes, but they're still in the same philosophical ballpark. If you keep that in mind, then you can find opportunities to twist them around in an argument and ultimately defeat them.

I have observed that Conservatives will put into practice those theories which they believe will work (such as tax-cuts-raising-public-revenue) while Liberals will always go with what actually works (such as increase-public-spending-during-a-recession)

The thing is, Conservatives seem to act on "faith" (a result of their religious training) rather than a more pragmatic Liberal "real world" approach, (a result of higher education and it's open-minded world view)

[Chambered Word]

I have observed that Conservatives will put into practice those theories which they believe will work (such as tax-cuts-raising-public-revenue) while Liberals will always go with what actually works (such as increase-public-spending-during-a-recession)

The thing is, Conservatives seem to act on "faith" (a result of their religious training) rather than a more pragmatic Liberal "real world" approach, (a result of higher education and it's open-minded world view)

Absolutely true. While Obama isn't preaching hate (like Sarah Palin does) he isn't making things a whole lot better. If he has a bit more backbone, maybe something will change.


I saw an Oprah show on Danish Socialism, and I was truly impressed with the type of system which our good Danish and Swedish neighbors have invented. Come to think of it, why do Beck, Limbaugh, et al, condemn European Socialism so much? Answer: BECAUSE THEY WOULD NEVER MAKE THEIR MILLIONS ($$$) UNDER SUCH A SYSTEM, THAT IS WHY!!

America reminds me of Nineteen Eighty-Four a bit. The conservatives try to keep the country fenced off from the rest of the world. Whenever anyone points to alternative systems working fine in other countries they rush to spread propaganda about how those systems are failing (the Canadian healthcare system for example) and spread hatespeech about Europeans themselves (freedom fries, etc, I mean how dumber can you get?).

It's a sad state of affairs.

[RadioRaheem84]

America reminds me of Nineteen Eighty-Four a bit. The conservatives try to keep the country fenced off from the rest of the world. Whenever anyone points to alternative systems working fine in other countries they rush to spread propaganda about how those systems are failing (the Canadian healthcare system for example) and spread hatespeech about Europeans themselves (freedom fries, etc, I mean how dumber can you get?).

It's a sad state of affairs.
It's worse than 1984. At least in the book there was an unmentioned cynicism about the state of affairs. A huge chunk of the population though believes that we're who we are because we're great; not because we use cheap labor from abroad to import cheap goods, not because our economic policy abroad favors our business interests over the lives of other people, not because we have a foreign policy that dominates the market, manipulates currency, manipulates elections, the media in third world countries and that we support dictators. NONE of this even factors into people's minds when thinking about the "greatness of America". Somehow we're just great because we're a Christian nation and God Blessed us. :rolleyes:

[Klaatu]

America reminds me of Nineteen Eighty-Four a bit. The conservatives try to keep the country fenced off from the rest of the world. Whenever anyone points to alternative systems working fine in other countries they rush to spread propaganda about how those systems are failing (the Canadian healthcare system for example) and spread hatespeech about Europeans themselves (freedom fries, etc, I mean how dumber can you get?).

It's a sad state of affairs.

I am so embarrased to be American. One of my foreign-exchange students (Vietnamese) actually asked why things are so screwed up here. Rather than get angry at him for such a daring statement (as a typical redneck hillbilly definitely would) I set out to explain that it is about right-wing American politics. The "wingnuts" are such sore losers (and racists - remember we have a black president) they are trying every which way to defeat the (believe it or not, the political CENTER) from having anything to say at all...

I fear that if another conservative is elected in 2012, that may be the end of the world (something people have been talking about lately) For example, what if Palin were somehow elected president (egads!!!) It might go something like this: "Hey what's this pretty red button do?" "OOPS!!!" The missiles are on their way... :crying:

[Chambered Word]

I fear that if another conservative is elected in 2012, that may be the end of the world (something people have been talking about lately) For example, what if Palin were somehow elected president (egads!!!) It might go something like this: "Hey what's this pretty red button do?" "OOPS!!!" The missiles are on their way... :crying:

I was actually pretty worried that the world would end - probably in some form of a nuclear showdown between the US and Russia - if she was elected. I think most politically-minded people I know were scared of that happening, actually.

[Prairie Fire]

First article in a series on Glen Becks "revolutionary holocaust":

http://theredphoenix.wordpress.com/2010/01/26/review-glenn-beck%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9crevolutionary-holocaust-live-free-or-die%e2%80%9d/

[Q]

A lot of people are calling Obama a Socialist, but I think he is as far from Socialism as I am from being crowned the King of England...

I saw an Oprah show on Danish Socialism, and I was truly impressed with the type of system which our good Danish and Swedish neighbors have invented. Come to think of it, why do Beck, Limbaugh, et al, condemn European Socialism so much? Answer: BECAUSE THEY WOULD NEVER MAKE THEIR MILLIONS ($$$) UNDER SUCH A SYSTEM, THAT IS WHY!!

Now, how bad can that possibly be??
How are Denmark and Sweden socialist? They're not. They have (or rather, had, now that the neoliberal policies are being swinged through here aswell) a welfare system, but this has nothing to do with socialism but is merely a patchwork on the failures of capitalism, a conscious effort by the bourgeoisie to buy off the class struggle. A formula which is no longer feasible today like it seemed in the sixties and seventies.

[Thirsty Crow]

My father being a Right wing nut job worshiping Glenn Beck as if hes Jesus Christ himself made my mother who didnt know anything about Communism/Socialism watch this right wing bias trash and i have now lost my cccp flag my hammer sickle pins and necklace my copy of the Communist Manifesto becasue now i have two parents who refuse to let there son be a communist. i ask of you guys what can i say to atleast convice my mom that communism/Socialism is good and that Gleen Beck soiled what we are. my mom wont read the manifesto after watching Glenn Beck program. and mt dad keeps telling her how bad it is. i want any info i can give to her to help her see the good of communism
OK, example such as yours make me feel really satisfied and "grateful" (khm, to whom?) for having parents such as mine.

As far as Glenn Beck is concerned, I really don't know much about him apart from his recent book "The Christmas Sweater" (or whatever piece of clothing, I can't remember). I do want to check out that book in my local library since I have this flaw of character: I'm drawn to half-wits and rightist screw-ups' writings, just to enjoy my bitterness and their stupidity :D
So I'll update my post in a while.

[Klaatu]

How are Denmark and Sweden socialist? They're not. They have (or rather, had, now that the neoliberal policies are being swinged through here aswell) a welfare system, but this has nothing to do with socialism but is merely a patchwork on the failures of capitalism, a conscious effort by the bourgeoisie to buy off the class struggle. A formula which is no longer feasible today like it seemed in the sixties and seventies.

As compared to the U.S. system, most European countries do lean toward quasi-socialism. It is a matter of degree. There really is no "pure" system anywhere, whether it be capitalism, socialism, communism, or any other. There is really bits and pieces of everything.

[RadioRaheem84]

As compared to the U.S. system, most European countries do lean toward quasi-socialism. It is a matter of degree. There really is no "pure" system anywhere, whether it be capitalism, socialism, communism, or any other. There is really bits and pieces of everything.



I wouldn't even call them quasi-socialist. Welfare States are still capitalist. It's called buying off the working class.

Even cappie-tool Dinesh D'Souza defended welfare states against Christopher Hitchens support of socialism in a debate.

The US is a mixed economy too. It's just our social benefits aren't as extensive as Europe's.

[Klaatu]

Concerning Beck, who seems to be hopelessly fixated on "The Founding Fathers" in his daily rants:

The founders were advocates of traditional market practices, but it would seem that, given all of the trouble
which had been bestowed upon them by King George, (taxes, tariffs, quotas, etc) the colonists would have had
a harshly negative view of (what might be the modern equivalent of) big corporate power. In other words, in
that time period, "big business" would have been thought of with some disdain (maybe I'm wrong, but, didn't
a large revolution result, at least in part, out of this hatred of the powers-that-be, whom, to their whim,
controlled the colonists to the nth-degree?) These humble colonists simply did not like this "big business"
controlling their lives and pocketbooks.

The greatest proportion of colonists in the 18th century would have been self-sufficient farmers, shopkeepers,
traders, etc, which is considered "free enterprise," but on the smallest scale. The larger businesses would have
been British-owned, both private and public (the Crown)

Clearly, the American Revolution was fought primarily for economic reasons!

Fast-forward to modern times. Isn't it a phenomenon that history repeats itself: "Big Business" has us by the
crotch once again. Too bad Glenn Beck doesn't see this fact. He is too busy boxing at shadows (that is, the
government) But, isn't that government supposed to protect us from unfairness and crime? If Beck's beloved
"small government" comes about, who will protect us from these big-business overlords? As an analogy,
do we lay off half of the town police department, all the while expecting crime to drop? In Beck's world,
it would actually work that way. Good luck with that...

The bottom line is that, Beck's "Founders this and Founders that" - ad nauseam - is way out of touch. That
is because he appears to suggest that "the Founders" loved big business. They certainly did not; in fact they
fought a war in order to free themselves from it ! America's Founders are probably spinning in their graves,
knowing how far society has regressed back into plutocracy, considering their gallant and successful effort
to rid themselves of it in the first place...

[The Ben G]

I'm confused on the ussr wasnt communist i thought they were in ww2 or were they socialist? and i thought all three were communist.

boy have my eyes just opened up lol

After lenin, They were not communist or socialist.

[fatboy]

After lenin, They were not communist or socialist.
I have to disagree with you here. After Stalin they were no longer communist or socialist. Thanks to the revisionist evil know as Khrushchev. Stalin correctly applied the ideas of Marx Engels and Lenin to the CCCP.

[Chambered Word]

Stalin correctly applied the ideas of Marx Engels and Lenin to the CCCP.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[fatboy]

:laugh::laugh::laugh:
Something make you laugh? Don't tell me you believe the grossly overestimated rumors about Stalin.

[bailey_187]

After lenin, They were not communist or socialist.

OMG! Your so clever.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Why do you feel the need to embaress yourself like this?


American Communists have got their work cut out for them now. I'm glad we dont have crazies like this on our TV. I saw a bit of Glen Beck show this morning and he was on about how ideas taught in German universities such as those of Marx and Nietchze led to the Holocaust.

It was also funny how he called out Progressives for "treaty the masses as stupid" (no doubt they do) and for "telling the media what to say so they can tell these ideas to the dumb masses", and then went on to say to his guests "we need smart guys like you to write out the ideas of the founding fathers so the common man can understand it".

[Das war einmal]

These regimes never claimed to be communist actually, but socialist (which is a transitionary phase between capitalism and communism). But I wouldn't even say this is very correct. They had/have planned economies, with progressive features (free healthcare and education, guarantee to have a job, etc.), but these economies function(ed) to privilege a bureaucratic elite before any workers got to see the fruits of their labour.


And this is a trotskyist opinion. Not the 'truth'

[Thirsty Crow]

:laugh::laugh::laugh:
Such statements are not funny, in my opinion.
They're plainly sad.

[Martin Blank]

OK, take the Stalin-Trotsky pissing contest to another thread. Last warning.

[Klaatu]

As in my prior essay, I am trying to prove that America's founders were:

(A) decidedly against big business (capitalism, mercantilism) *

(B) the founders had an extremely strong sense of community - isn't that
what bound them so tightly together in the first place, to form a new country?
These strong community ties - churches, town events, charities, etc are the
essence of what socialism is all about (the people) even though the actual idea
of "socialism" par se, did not exist until Marx (?) in the following century (?)

(C) if not full-fledged socialism, certainly progressivism was championed by
the founders. Fighting the American Revolution was a progressive thing to do!

I am trying to show that Beck is completely wrong in slamming socialism and
progressivism, in that the founders themselves were progressives! That is, the
founders were not conservatives. The conservatives of the 18th century were
the British loyalists, against independence, favoring capitalism.

I believe that Beck is 180 degrees off-base in his analysis of the founding fathers.
He needs to make a through study of American history, and make that study
with an open mind, without his preconceived capitalist and conservative ideals.
Not having a college degree, Beck's general lack of knowledge of, and
misinterpretation of the facts, is influencing a growing proportion of gullible,
uninformed, uneducated people in the U.S., and these people vote for political
candidates who share Beck's views, distorted and wrong-headed as they are.

Thus wrong-direction policies become implemented (tax cuts for the wealthy,
ballooning military spending, lax environmental policies, crushing of common
civil rights, bending-of-science-to-fit-religious-beliefs (the stupidest policy of all)
and many more regressive policies of the American conservative party.

I'm off on a tangent here... let's just say that Beck and his ilk are helping lead
this country into economic and moral ruin, and possibly war, with their on-going
politically-divisive diatribes and hate-mongering...

IMHO

*not including small-scale trade between individuals

[Martin Blank]

As in my prior essay, I am trying to prove that America's founders were:...

(Snip for bandwidth -- Miles)

A good resource for a consolidated list of citations and commentary on where the Founders and Framers came down on these points would be some of the books and essays by liberal radio talk show host Thom Hartmann. He cites the Founders and Framers often on his show in his on-air polemics against libertarians and conservatives. You can probably find a lot of it on his website or through Google searches.

[RadioRaheem84]

It was also funny how he called out Progressives for "treaty the masses as stupid" (no doubt they do) and for "telling the media what to say so they can tell these ideas to the dumb masses", and then went on to say to his guests "we need smart guys like you to write out the ideas of the founding fathers so the common man can understand it". __________________


What I want to know is how does Beck equate the progressive movement and progressives to Marxism and leftists? Sure some of the progressives had socialist leanings but they were more social democratic than anything else and their racist, elitist opinions only reflected their ridiculous association with the establishment and their contradictory desires to effect change in society. They were a weird, loopy and contradictory bunch that disliked Marxists and other leftists for being too "dogmatic" and not pragmatic enough. They loved joining exclusive little societies in the Ivies and Oxbridge and disliked the working and poorer classes.

I mean I could see the similarities between liberalism and the progressives but with leftists? C'mon, Beck needs to try harder than that.

To go from Marxism to Social Darwinism to progressiveism to Fascism and then back to Liberalism is a bit much.

[Klaatu]

Thank you Miles! I will check that.

[Prairie Fire]

Article on Glen Becks "revolutionary holocaust" part 2:

http://theredphoenix.wordpress.com/2010/01/30/review-glenn-becks-revolutionary-holocaust-live-free-or-die/

[Misanthrope]

Discuss with them, show that you can defend your beliefs with logic.

[Manifesto]

1. Marx and Engels were no more racist or anti-Semitic than Abraham Lincoln.

Yeah could you explain that a bit because wasn't Lincoln pretty racist?

[Martin Blank]

Yeah could you explain that a bit because wasn't Lincoln pretty racist?

This is an angular argument, comparing Marx/Engels to Lincoln. Remember, for northern Republicans, Lincoln is an icon -- a "marble model" for their party. To make a direct comparison between Marx and Lincoln is to call into question one of their own sacred cows. "Lincoln, the president who freed the slaves, was as racist as Marx?!"

The fact is, though, that both Marx and Lincoln had personal prejudices against non-Europeans -- the same ones that were common in both Europe and North America at the time. But what also made both of them unique for their time was that they each learned and developed from their experiences, and both of them drew a sharp line between their personal views and their political stances.

Most of the racial comments attributed to Marx were culled from his personal letters, not from his public writings. The same is the case with Lincoln. These letters were never meant for public consumption, and they never reflected what either of them advocated from their different positions in society. It was only after both of them were long dead that these items were put into the public domain -- shamefully, without any real context placed around them (e.g., his personal insults against Ferdinand Lassalle).

[Die Neue Zeit]

And Lassalle's insults of himself. ;)

[Prairie Fire]

Article on Glen Becks "Revolutionary Holocaust" Part 3:

http://theredphoenix.wordpress.com/2010/02/03/review-glenn-becks-revolutionary-holocaust-live-free-or-die-3/

[Martin Blank]

Arguing with an Idiot
On Glenn Beck, Communism and an Offer He'll Probably Refuse

The Communist Monthly, No. 1 (New Series) • February 2010

http://www.communist-league.org/index.php/news-analysis/73-arguing-with-an-idiot

(And, yes, that's a new URL for the League's website.)

[Dimentio]

The problem is not Glenn Beck, but that people are willing to listen to his inanities.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Liberals all think it's got entertainment value, but you know what they say about repeating lies long enough for them to be accepted as truth.

[Dimentio]

Glenn Beck's audience are most often not identifying themselves as liberal. But in some way, for people to accept Glenn Beck's worldview, they must somehow feel that his worldview is corresponding to their own preexisting interpretation of reality.

[RadioRaheem84]

Glenn Beck's audience are most often not identifying themselves as liberal. But in some way, for people to accept Glenn Beck's worldview, they must somehow feel that his worldview is corresponding to their own preexisting interpretation of reality.

I think that what Richter was trying to say was that liberals laugh him off as a clown and pay him no mind. But his misinformation is being swallowed up by many gullible tea bagger types that will soon be gunning for liberals because Beck keeps equating them with us and us with Nazis!

[Dimentio]

If Glenn Beck's turning into a full-blown fascist leader, I'm rather sure FOX will destroy him.