Wealth of Nations

[Bud Struggle]

An interesting comparison between the European Social Democratic Econmic model and the American system. It's obviously from the Capitalist point of view--but it makes some good points.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/njmagazine/wn_20100116_2302.php

WHICH HAS THE SUPERIOR MODEL? IT TURNS OUT THAT EACH SIDE HAS THINGS TO TEACH THE OTHER.
by Clive Crook
Saturday, Jan. 16, 2010

Which has the superior economic model, the United States or Europe? The question keeps coming up and never gets resolved. It is having another go-round at the moment, with the adversaries lining up as usual. Conservatives say that Europe's social-democratic model is bound for the landfill of history. Progressives defend the model, even if they usually stop short of recommending it outright.

As a British import, allow me to join in. My answer, to cut to the chase -- one picks up these expressions -- is that neither model is objectively better. You can guess which I prefer, because like many other Europeans I have chosen to live in the United States. But the European approach is perfectly viable, and I can see why many Americans might like it. (For some reason, not many seem to move to Europe. The traffic seems to be mainly in the other direction. A mystery.) To be sure, each side has things to teach the other.


The surprising thing is just how persistent U.S. economic leadership, based on its supposedly inferior model, has proved...

[Robert]

Much for me to like in the article:


As Mankiw says, living standards in the United States are much higher on average than in Europe, as measured by per capita income. On the other hand, productivity is not. This is the most interesting and surprising point of comparison.

....

But if superficial impressions are allowed, here is mine gleaned from traveling around the U.S.: Americans live in bigger houses than their European counterparts, eat better food, drive bigger cars, wear better clothes, and are surrounded by more and better stuff.

....

(For some reason, not many seem to move to Europe. The traffic seems to be mainly in the other direction. A mystery.)

[maybe not such a mystery, since Overall, U.S. living standards are more than one-third higher than in Europe.]

Great article. I have to say, unfortunately, that America is headed for sure and sharp decline, because Social Security and Medicare systems are headed over a cliff right now. No one has the balls to do anything about it. I feel some days like I'm on the Titanic. Maybe the commies will save me. :lol:

[gorillafuck]

Americans live in bigger houses than their European counterparts, eat better food, drive bigger cars, wear better clothes, and are surrounded by more and better stuff.
Americans and Europeans generally have different styles of food (and European food isn't something thats uniform all over the continent by any stretch).

And I wouldn't say "drive bigger cars" is a positive.

[RGacky3]

But if superficial impressions are allowed, here is mine gleaned from traveling around the U.S.: Americans live in bigger houses than their European counterparts, eat better food, drive bigger cars, wear better clothes, and are surrounded by more and better stuff.


Eat better food??? wear better clothes? I don't know where this guy has treveled too at all, but this smacks as a bunch of horse shit.


As Mankiw says, living standards in the United States are much higher on average than in Europe, as measured by per capita income. On the other hand, productivity is not. This is the most interesting and surprising point of comparison.

You can't measure it by per capita income, because if 1 guy makes a million and 99 make 1 dollar. its still a much large per capita income than 100 guys making 100 collars, which means higher living standards. Again ... This article is a bunch of shit.

[Robert]

Eat better food???

Sure. Tell the truth, Gack, don't you like Pizza Hut better than the average cold pizza you get over there, burned on the bottom with no pepperoni?

Or do you ever ease into a McDonalds, when you're homesick, for a nice Happy Meal?

Also have never had a good steak over there.

But ... the dairy products in Normandy are to die for. Crème fraiche, ice cream. German sausage is also superior. Danish cheese. Austrian wienerschnitzel. Spanish paella ....

Mmmm! You're right after all, Gackmeister, the food IS good over there!:lol:

[Nolan]

Um, Several European countries have higher standards of living that the US.

And of course there is a lot of immigration out of Europe. I wouldn't want to live in some places in Eastern Europe or capitalist Russia.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Also have never had a good steak over there.

You must be joking me. Go to France, they have amazing steak. If you want it medium-rare you have to ask for it well done, if you ask for it medium it tries to escape as you stick a fork in it. The best way for steak to be. I don't know how they do their steak in America but I find if you burn the thing to a crisp you lose all the flavour.

Frankly I agree that there is no objectively superior model, and the only losers in this battle are the ones on either side who think their system is the absolute best and are waiting for the other system to collapse. Robert, I'm looking at you.

Of course, that's not to say that one can't have a preference. I much prefer the European socio-economic model to the American one. More social security and better protection for the vulnerable over here. If you're rich it's probably better to be in the US, though that said there are a lot of rich people over here who like it just fine.

The standard of living argument is a bit of a cop-out because of course Europe includes many areas which are economically underdeveloped, having been treated badly by the Soviet Union and even worse by post-SU capitalism. Instead of bombing these countries, the EU has curiously chosen to include them and help them to develop.

As for who owns the future, both sides lose I think. It's a question of demographics. Europe is growing old, it will struggle to expand its economy without expanding its borders (accession by Balkan states and possibly even Turkey eventually could help to combat this); the US has a younger population but its unchecked and uninhibited form of capitalism could be on the wane as we can now see its flaws. China and India are likely to be the main players economically in the years to come.

But economic prowess is only one part of prosperity. Europe's values mean more to me than America's dollars or China's... well whatever.

By the way here is an op-ed from Paul Krugman in the NY Times where he says that in many respects Europe compares favourably with the US.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/11/opinion/11krugman.html

[Robert]

I don't know how they do their steak in America but I find if you burn the thing to a crisp you lose all the flavour.

We do it great. As rare as you want, and charbroiled to die for.

I've had steak in France, but I admit it was always in cafes, where they were not serving what we call ribeye or top sirloin. I'm sure the same cuts have to exist there, but I just didn't have a lot of money like you do.:cool: Revolution now!!!

I hear they have great steak in Argentina, and that in Mexico it's wonderful because it's so fresh. In the countryside, they ring a bell or something when they are about to dispatch the beast. It's never frozen and eaten that day.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

We do it great. As rare as you want, and charbroiled to die for.

I've had steak in France, but I admit it was always in cafes, where they were not serving what we call ribeye or top sirloin. I'm sure the same cuts have to exist there, but I just didn't have a lot of money like you do.:cool: Revolution now!!!

I hear they have great steak in Argentina, and that in Mexico it's wonderful because it's so fresh. In the countryside, they ring a bell or something when they are about to dispatch the beast. It's never frozen and eaten that day.
I don't know why you'd assume money is the issue, I am and was a broke student. Many places in Europe simply have a culture of fine cuisine, and you will find quality food at all levels of the price ladder. Prefer McDonalds or Pizza Hut to that fancy continental stuff? No problem, we've got a ton of them over here too. :D That's why globalisation has made so much of the debate irrelevant.

[RGacky3]

Sure. Tell the truth, Gack, don't you like Pizza Hut better than the average cold pizza you get over there, burned on the bottom with no pepperoni?

Or do you ever ease into a McDonalds, when you're homesick, for a nice Happy Meal?

To be absolutely frank, I've been in McDonalds once in the 9 montsh I've been living here, and that was after many tequilas/whiskeys. As far as Pizza, they have pretty good Pizza here, but for cheap post drinking food, I generally would prefer back in LA small taco shops and here Kebabs.

But that being said I try to eat healthy bot here and the ...............

Wait a second? Why are we talking about this?

Also about immigration out of Europe, first of all WHERE in Europe? Second what are the numbers?

[Robert]

I generally would prefer back in LA small taco shops

Yeah, baby. So get your ass home. America wins. (You realize it's the profit motive that makes those tacos taste better, right?)

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Yeah, baby. So get your ass home. America wins. (You realize it's the profit motive that makes those tacos taste better, right?)
Because in Europe restaurants don't sell food for profit?

I rather suspect it's a steady flow of Mexican immigrants that makes US tacos better. Not many Mexicans over here.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Wait a second? Why are we talking about this?

Because culture and prosperity begins and ends with fast food.

(And we wonder why America has an obesity problem)

[RGacky3]

Yeah, baby. So get your ass home. America wins. (You realize it's the profit motive that makes those tacos taste better, right?)

If that were true then Taco Bell would be number 1 in taste and authenticity.

Back to the article, its pretty clear this article is a joke written by a clown and not to be taken seriously, i.e. its a bunch of crap.

[Plagueround]

I rather suspect it's a steady flow of Mexican immigrants that makes US tacos better. Not many Mexicans over here.

This is actually very true. We have a large immigrant population in my area and the food is fantastic compared to other places. When my friend was visiting from England, the first thing she demanded was real mexican food. :D

[FSL]

That people like Clive Crook are payed columnists who write stuff like "people in the US eat better food" -while supposedly comparing economies- speaks volumes on the huge waste in both the US and Europe.
I can't believe he earns a salary.

[Robert]

I don't know why you'd assume money is the issue, I am and was a broke student.Take it easy, willya? I was just joking.


If that were true then Taco Bell would be number 1 in taste and authenticity.You mean it isn't?

(That's another joke, so don't have a seizure.)

Anyway, I don't think there is anything so terrible about the article. The guy is just pointing out a few things that each side of the pond accomplishes a little more to his personal satisfaction than does the other. He isn't a joke.

Come to think of it, is there any non-communist commentator that you guys do not consider a "joke"?

[RGacky3]

Anyway, I don't think there is anything so terrible about the article. The guy is just pointing out a few things that each side of the pond accomplishes a little more to his personal satisfaction than does the other. He isn't a joke.

Come to think of it, is there any non-communist commentator that you guys do not consider a "joke"?

Its not terrible, its just absolutely wrong.

There are many non-communist commentators that I do not consider a "joke," problem is you don't post reasonable commentators, most are simply right wingers, or just establishment.

THe reason I think its a joke is because his "analysis" can be torn apart by a middle schooler, its so weak its as I said, a joke.

[Demogorgon]

Much of the article plays to the prejudices of Conservative Americans who won't read anything unless it repeatedly states "U.S.A. No.1!". I often hear the claim on some message boards "Europe must be a lot worse than America because lots of Europeans move to America". The bit that seems to be missed-including in this article-is that a lot of Americans move to Europe.

Also the claim that America is richer than Europe based on per capita GDP immediately break the credibility of the article. The fact that there is far higher income inequality in America should immediately ring a warning bell as it shows that simple averages will not tell the full story. It also ignores that fact by the time essentials are paid (taxes, rent/mortgages, insurance where applicable and so on) Europeans are often left with more than Americans because these things are generally more expensive in America.

Most important of all of course is the simple fact there is no single European economic model. Various European countries range from far more laissez-faire than America, to considerably less so.

[ComradeMan]

Americans live in bigger houses than their European counterparts, eat better food, drive bigger cars, wear better clothes, and are surrounded by more and better stuff.

LOL!!! I am not going to take this too seriously but do people on the other side of the pond actually believe their own propaganda....

1. Eat better food.... (roars of laughter).... (even more roars of laughter).... hmm, well I'll make do with my meagre osso buco alla romana and a chianti... or perhaps some mozzarella di bufala from Campania.... or, hmm, the fresh black olives....

2. Wear better clothes.... Yves Saint Lauren, Gucci, Prada, Dolce & Gabbana... not that designer clothes are important but Americans are the most famously badly dressed people in the world, despite their money. Hell, they think sportswear is fashionable- closely followed by the British.

3. Bigger cars? Well, I don't know if bigger is better, and I wouldn't mind a Corvette- but at the same time Rolls Royce, Porsche, Jaguar, Mercedes, BMW, Ferrari, Bugatti and Lamborghini might have something to say about "better" cars.

4. We are surrounded by "more better stuff"? Like what? Disneyland? LOL!!! Come back in 3000 years when you have 3000 years of history and culture and talk about better stuff.

Even your iconic hot-dogs and hamburgers came from Germany! Your first and only major export to the rest of the world was "smoking"... thanks.:D

Now, I don't want to upset Americans here, but the kind of attitude expressed in the quote above is what really irritates Europeans about chauvanistic Yankees with a capital Y. Their only argument is that "we are bigger and richer" and yet it is an argument that has feet of clay too. The thing that irks me about these Yankees (as opposed to Americans) is that the things of value from the US, the great cultural contributions, the Gershwins, the Jazz, the Chomsky's, the Warhols, Kerouacs and Jim Morrisons are not the things that they vaunt in their bombastic imperialistic arrogance.

I also detect that they are very "racist" against Europeans. In American mainstream films the Italians are always mafiosi and stereotypical, the Irish are drunken and quaint, they hate the French and always mock them, the English are always portrayed as either hooligans or upper class aristocratic snobs etc etc and at the end of the day we all become liberated by American music... oh, yippee!
:D

[Plagueround]

4. We are surrounded by "more better stuff"? Like what? Disneyland? LOL!!! Come back in 3000 years when you have 3000 years of history and culture and talk about better stuff.


My culture has been here for much longer than a mere 3,000 years.

[ComradeMan]

My culture has been here for much longer than a mere 3,000 years.


:D
Hey, that comment wasn't meant to be taken too seriously, LOL!!! But which culture do you mean? If you mean the confederated tribes of the Yakama Nation then I am with you all the way, another culture which got sadly "fucked over" by Yankee-ism.

Let me get this straight, I don't have issues with Americans per se, but rather with the arrogant chauvanistic Yankees as I describe them who use arguments like in the quote and frequently refer to us as the "Eurotrash". The same kind of people who rename French Fries "Freedom Fries" if you catch me....?