Disputation: The Revolutionary Holocaust

[Robocommie]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0110/31882.html

I realize that Glenn Beck and his insipid, anti-thought show is complete and utter bullshit. But does anyone want to begin constructing a disputation on the lies and slander told in this recent special, the Revolutionary Holocaust? I feel it may be a good idea if only because we're going to start encountering this kind of idiocy as our cause advances in the US.

Where would Beck have gotten the idea that Marx and Engels were vicious anti-Semites and racists? Where would this idea have come from that Marxism is a racist ideology that promotes the necessity of a holocaust?

In other words, what works of Marx could Beck and his simps have misquoted or taken out of context to make us look so fucking evil?

[Tablo]

I watched it and I can't think of any work that Marx or Engels wrote that was racist in any way. It seems like Beck completely made shit up.

I did noticed he cited the Black Book of Communism, which we all know is a load of shit.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I can't think of any work that Marx or Engels wrote that was racist in any way.
Probably this -

The southern facile character of the Irishman, his crudity, which places him but little above the savage, his contempt for all humane enjoyments, in which his very crudeness makes him incapable of sharing, his filth and poverty, all favour drunkenness. The temptation is great, he cannot resist it, and so when he has money he gets rid of it down his throat.

(Condition of the Working Class in England)

Which of course is plucked completely out of context.

[Tablo]

Probably this -

The southern facile character of the Irishman, his crudity, which places him but little above the savage, his contempt for all humane enjoyments, in which his very crudeness makes him incapable of sharing, his filth and poverty, all favour drunkenness. The temptation is great, he cannot resist it, and so when he has money he gets rid of it down his throat.

(Condition of the Working Class in England)

Which of course is plucked completely out of context.
When I watched the documentary the quote they used was Marx talking about inferior races I think. They made it sound like Communism is an ideology about genocide and racism in the way Nazism is like that.

[NecroCommie]

We don't even need to reason with these morons. We simply need to state that almost every single communist organization is active within anti-racist circles. Proof for this is everywhere.

[Jolly Red Giant]

When I watched the documentary the quote they used was Marx talking about inferior races I think. They made it sound like Communism is an ideology about genocide and racism in the way Nazism is like that.
There are quite a few quotes that could be used to justify anti-semitism and racism on the part of Marx -

From On The Jewish Question

Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew – not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew.
Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew.
What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money.
Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Judaism, would be the self-emancipation of our time.
An organization of society which would abolish the preconditions for huckstering, and therefore the possibility of huckstering, would make the Jew impossible. His religious consciousness would be dissipated like a thin haze in the real, vital air of society. On the other hand, if the Jew recognizes that this practical nature of his is futile and works to abolish it, he extricates himself from his previous development and works for human emancipation as such and turns against the supreme practical expression of human self-estrangement.
We recognize in Judaism, therefore, a general anti-social element of the present time, an element which through historical development – to which in this harmful respect the Jews have zealously contributed – has been brought to its present high level, at which it must necessarily begin to disintegrate.
In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Judaism.

Talking about Lassalle
Marx-Engels Correspondence 1862

It is now quite plain to me — as the shape of his head and the way his hair grows also testify — that he is descended from the negroes who accompanied Moses’ flight from Egypt (unless his mother or paternal grandmother interbred with a nigger). Now, this blend of Jewishness and Germanness, on the one hand, and basic negroid stock, on the other, must inevitably give rise to a peculiar product. The fellow’s importunity is also nigger-like.

[Deny]

Quite the type of thing that Beck would want to do. Obama=Socialist. Socialist=Marxist. Marxist=Nazi.

And this is how the mainstream media keep the working classes engaged in obedience to capital and away from activism and labor. If Obama is linked to the far-left and then by extension to such evils as, I don't know, unions, then reactionary populism becomes a neat and easy way both to tap into to people's desire to be a part of some resistance (to Congress, or to the left in general, or whatever) as well as their desire to preserve cultural mores and resist change, while still keeping state-capitalism securely in place. The system can run freely onward when the people have successfully been diverted and their impulses channelled.

NewsCorp and its entire universe of subsidiaries have oriented themselves ideologically specifically for this purpose. They know they are doing it. And they are damned good at it.

And this is why we fight it.

[Tablo]

There are quite a few quotes that could be used to justify anti-semitism and racism on the part of Marx -

From On The Jewish Question

Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew – not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew.
Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew.
What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money.
Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Judaism, would be the self-emancipation of our time.
An organization of society which would abolish the preconditions for huckstering, and therefore the possibility of huckstering, would make the Jew impossible. His religious consciousness would be dissipated like a thin haze in the real, vital air of society. On the other hand, if the Jew recognizes that this practical nature of his is futile and works to abolish it, he extricates himself from his previous development and works for human emancipation as such and turns against the supreme practical expression of human self-estrangement.
We recognize in Judaism, therefore, a general anti-social element of the present time, an element which through historical development – to which in this harmful respect the Jews have zealously contributed – has been brought to its present high level, at which it must necessarily begin to disintegrate.
In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Judaism.

Talking about Lassalle
Marx-Engels Correspondence 1862

It is now quite plain to me — as the shape of his head and the way his hair grows also testify — that he is descended from the negroes who accompanied Moses’ flight from Egypt (unless his mother or paternal grandmother interbred with a nigger). Now, this blend of Jewishness and Germanness, on the one hand, and basic negroid stock, on the other, must inevitably give rise to a peculiar product. The fellow’s importunity is also nigger-like.

True, but we all know he wasn't a racist and was not opposed to the Jewish race at all.

[Martin Blank]

True, but we all know he wasn't a racist and was not opposed to the Jewish race at all.

Marx was brought up in a severely anti-Semitic environment, compounded by the fact his family converted in order for his father to become a civil servant. There's a lot of self-hate going on there.

And, yeah, while Marx made a lot of comments we'd see as racist and pretty shitty today (even stuff that would get him restricted here), he was also supportive of the Abolitionists in the U.S., supported Frémont's emancipation moves at the beginning of the Civil War, supported Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation, supported the XIII, XIV and XV Amendments, called for the British to leave India and Ireland, generally supported self-determination movements and social equality, and demanded that organizations of the IWMA be desegregated.

"Labor cannot emancipate itself in the white skin while in the black it is branded."

In short, there is Marx, the communist, and Marx, the human being. Only the religious and stupid confuse the two.

[Tablo]

Marx was brought up in a severely anti-Semitic environment, compounded by the fact his family converted in order for his father to become a civil servant. There's a lot of self-hate going on there.

And, yeah, while Marx made a lot of comments we'd see as racist and pretty shitty today (even stuff that would get him restricted here), he was also supportive of the Abolitionists in the U.S., supported Frémont's emancipation moves at the beginning of the Civil War, supported Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation, supported the XIII, XIV and XV Amendments, called for the British to leave India and Ireland, generally supported self-determination movements and social equality, and demanded that organizations of the IWMA be desegregated.

"Labor cannot emancipate itself in the white skin while in the black it is branded."

In short, there is Marx, the communist, and Marx, the human being. Only the religious and stupid confuse the two.
I thought one of the things Marx criticized with Bakunin was his anti-semitism, but I would not be surprised by Marx being anti-semitic since everyone was back then.

[ZeroNowhere]

I suppose he meant that Marx didn't much like Judaism:

"The attitude of the bourgeois to the institutions of his regime is like that of the Jew to the law; he evades them whenever it is possible to do so in each individual case, but he wants everyone else to observe them. If the entire bourgeoisie, in a mass and at one time, were to evade bourgeois institutions, it would cease to be bourgeois — a conduct which, of course, never occurs to the bourgeois and by no means depends on their willing or running [i.e., it is dictated by historical conditions]. The dissolute bourgeois evades marriage and secretly commits adultery; the merchant evades the institution of property by depriving others of property by speculation, bankruptcy, etc.; the young bourgeois makes himself independent of his family, if he can by in fact abolishing the family as far as he is concerned. But marriage, property, the family remain untouched in theory, because they are the practical basis on which the bourgeoisie has directed its domination, and because in their bourgeois form they are the conditions which make the bourgeois a bourgeois, just as the constantly evaded law makes the religious Jew a religious Jew."
-The German Ideology.

Also, as far as I know, him and Engels tended to be facetious about just about everything, so there was, for example, a seeming in-joke involving Lafargue and niggers ("Here is a bit of news for Paul; Sam Moore gives us tonight a parting dinner, he sails on Saturday for the Niger, where, at Asába, in the interior of Africa, he will be Chief Justice of the Territories of the Royal Niger Company, Chartered and Limited, with six months’ leave to Europe every other year, good pay, and the expectation of returning in 8 years or so an independent man. It was chiefly in honour of Paul that he consented to become Lord Chief Justice of the Niger Niggers, the very cream of Nigrition Niger Nigerdom."), though whether there was any racism here (probably not) is hard to judge, given that we're looking at a letter without any idea of the context. This tends to be even more of a problem in the case of Engels, given that one of his most popular early (ie. pre-commie) works was parody, and he never really looked back. I believe Marx also mentioned niggers in a letter where he was mocking Lassalle ("If you’d been here just for a day or two, you’d have been able to lay in enough material to keep you laughing for a whole year. That’s why I was so anxious to have you here. One doesn’t get an opportunity like that every day."), and again there's no real reason to assume that he's being racist, seeing that he's quite clearly making fun of Lassalle, and presumably it's some joke which is not evident to unintended recipients.


Marx was brought up in a severely anti-Semitic environment, compounded by the fact his family converted in order for his father to become a civil servant. There's a lot of self-hate going on there.Last I checked, Marx did not, "believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, is the Creator and Guide of everything that has been created; He alone has made, does make, and will make all things."

[ROBOTROT]

In short, there is Marx, the communist, and Marx, the human being. Only the religious and stupid confuse the two.
That's right. And we all know that many of the American founding fathers owned slaves, but no-one on the left (I hope) is facile enough to try to argue that everyone who waves an American flag is automatically supporting slavery or the extermination of Native Americans. We may strongly criticise their nationalism and point to such a dreadful history as part of our argument, but making ridiculous accusations won't get us anywhere.

Likewise, horrendous things were done during the 20th century, purportedly in the name of "socialism" and "communism". It's one of the most important jobs of the left to argue that gulags, gas chambers and nukes do not represent workers' power, rather they represent the victory of the counter-revolutionaries like Stalin and Hitler over the genuine Socialist movement.

The hardened Glenn Becks of the world, of course, are interested in any of these details and aren't likely to be convinced out of their prejudices by them. Which is why they are either best left ignored or ridiculed, but never taken seriously.

[Q]

But does anyone want to begin constructing a disputation on the lies and slander told in this recent special, the Revolutionary Holocaust?
No. We shouldn't debate with morons on their terms.

[el_chavista]

I thought "revolutionary holocaust" referred to the mass killings of communists, as in Indonesia 1965 or Chile 1973.

[ZeroNowhere]

"We stand for maintenance of private property. We shall protect private enterprise as the most expedient, or rather the sole possible, economic order." --- Adolf Hitler

(To be honest, I've always found it amusing when people quote the bit by Marx about the 'secular basis of Judaism' as if he were somehow being racist: Isn't the entire point that the religion of Judaism as it is has a secular basis in capitalism? If he were talking about race, race is secular, so that would be a fairly silly expression. Incidentally, he was hardly very lenient on Christianity, calling it the, "special religion of capital.")

[Sasha]

I thought "revolutionary holocaust" referred to the mass killings of communists, as in Indonesia 1965 or Chile 1973.

like i said in an other thread:


even if marx did write it, beck pulled it (not suprisingly) completly out of context. The word Holocaust only got its current meaning in the 1960's

"The term holocaust originally derived from the Greek (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) word holókauston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_%28sacrifice%29), meaning a " whole (holos) burnt (kaustos)" sacrificial offering to a god [...] For hundreds of years, the word holocaust was used in English to denote massive sacrifices and great slaughters or massacres. During World War II, the word was used to describe Nazi atrocities regardless of whether the victims were Jews or non-Jews. Since the 1960s, the term has come to be used by scholars and popular writers to refer exclusively to the genocide of Jews"

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hol...se_of_the_term (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Etymology_and_use_of_the_term)) marx was already 80 years dead then.

so if anything that quote is just an dramatic way of saying that after the revolution the concept of race and nationality will be made irrelevant/non-existent, i.e. sommething as the maoist cultural revolution so completly contrary to what glenn beck wants it to mean.

[Robocommie]

That's right. And we all know that many of the American founding fathers owned slaves, but no-one on the left (I hope) is facile enough to try to argue that everyone who waves an American flag is automatically supporting slavery or the extermination of Native Americans. We may strongly criticise their nationalism and point to such a dreadful history as part of our argument, but making ridiculous accusations won't get us anywhere.

Oh, fantastic point!

[Robocommie]

No. We shouldn't debate with morons on their terms.

I don't want to debate Beck, but I would like to put out the exact things that have been said here, because Beck is spewing his garbage into the public consciousness, and we Socialists have a bad enough reputation in the US as it is. The Leftist Video Project is talking about that kind of thing right now, in particular Comrade Lewis and I have been discussing Glenn Beck.

Thank you to everyone who posted here, you've all made some very good points and some very valuable contributions!

[RadioRaheem84]

Why even argue with Beck on this point? Marx, like EVERYONE in his time and everyone after him until the end of WWII, thought a lot in terms of race. Racial identity was important in all classical scholarly work at the time especially during the 18th - early twentieth century. Nearly, every major work by every major author on topics ranging from economics to politics to history that deals with socio-cultural issues had something tied to race as an explanation for X and Y. It really took off with the advent of the nation-state and nationalism.

But there can be NO DOUBT in people's minds that the Communists were fervent anti-racists and contributed a lot to anti-racist causes. In a large number of trials in the early twentieth century in the US involving crimes committed toward African Americans or accusations against them, a Communist (along with the NAACP) was usually involved. Anti-racism and universal brotherhood was seen as a raging Communist plot in the US and abroad for nearly two centuries. To have Beck sit there and lie through his teeth, revising history to make Communists, Socialists and Leftists look like Nazis is not only idiotic but utterly vile. The man is nothing more than a shameless provocateur. He is liable to get some of us stoned to death.

[RadioRaheem84]

Why can't conservatives these days be like William F. Buckley? At least on his old show people were allowed to debate him. Buckley had on Huey Newton, Noam Chomsky, and Gore Vidal for pete's sake!!

[Chambered Word]

Why even argue with Beck on this point? Marx, like EVERYONE in his time and everyone after him until the end of WWII, thought a lot in terms of race. Racial identity was important in all classical scholarly work at the time especially during the 18th - early twentieth century. Nearly, every major work by every major author on topics ranging from economics to politics to history that deals with socio-cultural issues had something tied to race as an explanation for X and Y. It really took off with the advent of the nation-state and nationalism.

But there can be NO DOUBT in people's minds that the Communists were fervent anti-racists and contributed a lot to anti-racist causes. In a large number of trials in the early twentieth century in the US involving crimes committed toward African Americans or accusations against them, a Communist (along with the NAACP) was usually involved. Anti-racism and universal brotherhood was seen as a raging Communist plot in the US and abroad for nearly two centuries. To have Beck sit there and lie through his teeth, revising history to make Communists, Socialists and Leftists look like Nazis is not only idiotic but utterly vile. The man is nothing more than a shameless provocateur. He is liable to get some of us stoned to death.

Sorry to tell you this, but people are beginning to actually seriously think that we're a bunch of racist communist Hitlers who want to purge everybody with famines just because we think it would be fun.

We can't just use anti-fascist demonstration against him. Glenn Beck already has a stable platform amongst Americans. If we ignore him he will be allowed to lie and slander us unchecked.

I'd also like to point out that Marx himself was Jewish.


Thank you to everyone who posted here, you've all made some very good points and some very valuable contributions!

Indeed you have. Thanks all. :)

[Martin Blank]

I suppose he meant that Marx didn't much like Judaism:...

Last I checked, Marx did not, "believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, is the Creator and Guide of everything that has been created; He alone has made, does make, and will make all things."

No, but he was raised in an environment where anti-Semitism was rampant and people were fervently Christian, which was my point. That cultural and social element rubs off on people, regardless of their own personal leanings. "The ruling ideology of a society is the ideology of the ruling class", and all that. It affected Marx, the man, as much as the ideologies of today's ruling classes affect us. After all, I've heard more than one atheist still exclaim "Jesus Christ!" when they are frustrated or angry.

[Martin Blank]

Why even argue with Beck on this point? Marx, like EVERYONE in his time and everyone after him until the end of WWII, thought a lot in terms of race. Racial identity was important in all classical scholarly work at the time especially during the 18th - early twentieth century. Nearly, every major work by every major author on topics ranging from economics to politics to history that deals with socio-cultural issues had something tied to race as an explanation for X and Y. It really took off with the advent of the nation-state and nationalism.

The point here is not to argue with Beck. There is no arguing with Beck, but there is arguing with those who might watch that show of his and actually believe some of it. And this point you make here is an important one to present to those folks.


... To have Beck sit there and lie through his teeth, revising history to make Communists, Socialists and Leftists look like Nazis is not only idiotic but utterly vile. The man is nothing more than a shameless provocateur. He is liable to get some of us stoned to death.

That's what he wants, and that's why we can't just keep our mouths shut about this.

Generally speaking, there needs to be a more pro-active approach by workers and their organizations to the Nativist (fascist) teabaggers and their ideological leaders like Beck. We should treat them like we treat the skinhead (bonehead) neo-Nazis, KKK, NSM and other classical fascist groups.

[RadioRaheem84]

The idiot Beck even admits in his own documentary that Hitler hated the Communists because of internationalism. What idiot bases his doctrine of internationalism and universal brotherhood on racism?

[RadioRaheem84]

I seriously hate this fucker with every inch of my soul. This man is vile and corrupt.

Our comrades in the Middle East die from fighting with reactionary Islamic terrorist forces that are vile and racist. The Left Wing trade unionists in Iraq died fighting both Baathist Fascists AND Islamic Radical during the failed invasion and occupation of Iraq by the US "liberating" army. The CP of Iraq denounces Islamists daily and risk death. I have kept in touch with members of the Iraqi Democratic Youth Federation (the youth wing of the ICP) and they say they risk daily attacks from Islamists and Baathists. Talk to any member of the Iraqi Federation of Trade Unions and ask him if he's a fucking Islamic or Baathist, Fascist sympathizer? He'll spit in your face.

Socialists risk their lives speaking out in Iran too. The Tudeh Party of Iran (Communists) were jailed in massive numbers by both the US supported Shah AND the Islamic Radical that took over during Khomenini's reign.

And fucking Beck dares, he fucking dares, to equate Socialists with racists, fascists and Islamic Radicals!

Comrades, I hope we make a series of videos that take on this guys twisted scheme.

[Robocommie]

And fucking Beck dares, he fucking dares, to equate Socialists with racists, fascists and Islamic Radicals!


Frankly, it's one thing to just have a problem with socialism or Marxism. I mean, whatever, lots of people do, and that doesn't necessarily make them assholes.

But what Beck is doing is LITERALLY the political equivalent of saying, "Eh, Chinese, Japanese, whatever. They all eat noodles, write with squiggles and know kung fu, right?"

[Robocommie]

Why can't conservatives these days be like William F. Buckley? At least on his old show people were allowed to debate him. Buckley had on Huey Newton, Noam Chomsky, and Gore Vidal for pete's sake!!

Between you and me (and the entire rest of this board) I think it's mostly because most true intellectuals are left leaning. I have met conservatives who I admire for being erudite and dedicated academics, but they are few and far between.

Or as a friend of mine once said, "Folks who know: lean left."

[Joe_Germinal]

I agree with many of the posters that we shouldn't spend too much time correcting all of Glenn Beck's historical mistakes and omissions. Nevertheless, I don't think we should concede the point about Marx and Engels' supposed racism. It's not enough to say, "oh well, given their historical period, Marx and Engels' statements on race aren't any worse than anyone else's," because, in fact, they were miles more progressive than almost any of their white contemporaries.

The case for Marx's racism is made by Glenn Beck using three quotations (or as Beck annoyingly calls them "quotes"). Read in context, none of these quotations is racist, and since that point is relatively simple to demonstrate, there's no reason why we shouldn't.

Exhibit A for Beck is this:


Sometimes, it’s hard to tell Hitler and Marx apart. Who wrote that Germany’s neighbors should accept “the physical and intellectual power of the German nation to subdue, absorb and assimilate its ancient eastern neighbors”? That’s Karl Marx and Fredrick Engels

Indeed, this was Engels alone, writing about a failed Slavonian nationalist uprising during the revolutions of 1848. Here's what he said:


The history of a thousand years ought to have shown them that such a retrogression was impossible; that if all the territory east of the Elbe and Saale had at one time been occupied by kindred Slavonians, this fact merely proved the historical tendency, and at the same time physical and intellectual power of the German nation to subdue, absorb, and assimilate its ancient eastern neighbors.

So, Engels is not celebrating the historical power of the righteous and superior Germans over the Slavonians who should submit to their natural cultural betters, only pointing out--correctly--that Slavonian nationalism was never going to succeed, and that the Slavonian working class would do better to join the international working class in overthrowing capitalism rather than fight for an independent Slavonia.

The second quotation in the Beck arsenal has the benefit of actually being properly attributed:


As the revolution happens, "the classes and the races, too weak to master the new conditions of life, must give way."

This is an accurate quotation from Marx, writing in the New York Tribune. Unfortunately for the "Marx was a racist" school of historiography, he was not describing the racist terror that socialists would unleash after the revolution. Indeed, he was describing capitalism. The name of the article from which this quotation comes is "Forced Emigration under Capitalism." In short, Marx was describing the painful tendency under capitalism for people from poorer societies to be forced to leave their homes in search of employment. This tendency, and its horrific results in terms of poor working conditions and racist backlash against immigrants, is visible for all to see right up to the present day.

Beck's final quotation is his most frightening, and also the least accurately rendered:


“The chief mission of all other races and peoples, large and small, is to perish in the revolutionary holocaust.”.

Marx said this as well, kind of. As was rightly pointed out by an earlier poster, holocaust didn't have the meaning it does today in the 1850s. Nevertheless, its an academic argument since what Marx actually said was:


All the other large and small nationalities and peoples are destined to perish before long in the revolutionary world storm..

Once again, the subject here is the revolutions of 1848. Marx is trying to explain why the Germans, Poles, and Hungarians tended to support the revolution, while the "Czechs, Moravians, Slovaks, Croats, Ruthenians, Rumanians, Illyrians and Serbs" tended to oppose it. His explanation is that the latter groups were already undergoing a process of assimilation at the time which a revolution would tend to accelerate. Therefore, nationalists from these communities stirred up counter-revolutionary sentiment. It goes without saying that these groups were not going to be physically annihilated, only that some of them were liable to be totally assimilated. Indeed, some of these groups are unfamiliar to us today because of this assimilation.

[communist72]

I wanna punch Glenn Beck in the face. and just tell him to know make this again being more accurate and not trying to show us as people who wanna kill all those not us. just anyone think the same?

[ZeroNowhere]

Why even argue with Beck on this point?Because historical accuracy is good.

[DecDoom]

I watched the first 15 minutes with my conservative family, and I'm very happy that even they thought it was bullshit.

[RadioRaheem84]

I watched the first 15 minutes with my conservative family, and I'm very happy that even they thought it was bullshit.


That's great! What was it about the doc that they found to be BS?

[DecDoom]

Well, to be fair they don't care for Glenn Beck in the first place. They know I'm a communist, and I've explained my beliefs pretty clearly to them, so when Glenn Beck got on the TV and started shouting about how communism = nazism, they figured that I'm not racist or anti-semetic and realized he was lying.

So, I guess you could say they didn't agree with the documentary in general.

[RadioRaheem84]

Well, to be fair they don't care for Glenn Beck in the first place. They know I'm a communist, and I've explained my beliefs pretty clearly to them, so when Glenn Beck got on the TV and started shouting about how communism = nazism, they figured that I'm not racist or anti-semetic and realized he was lying.

So, I guess you could say they didn't agree with the documentary in general.

This is a very good example we should use when countering Beck's obvious propaganda. That there were a lot of good things Communists, Socialists, and Leftists did during the 20th century, not just in the West but all over that counters the myth that we're racists and fascist like agitators.

Albert Einstein was pushed out of Germany because of the "socialist" Nazis and he was an avid Socialist until death. George Orwell witnessed Stalinist suppression of the Anarchists he fought alongside with him and he still left Spain a committed Socialist. The Leftist is not going to give up his ideals because of gangster regimes that claimed to be Communist. Socialism doesn't stop or end with the USSR.

[leninpuncher]

A good way to respond would be to go through Beck's 18/19th century heroes and show that they were a collection of slave-owners, anti-semites, masochists and violent homophobes. These were reactionary times, but in comparison to the founding fathers of the US, Marx looks pretty enlightened.

Some examples:
I think it was Jefferson who proposed forced physical castration for homosexuals.
Jefferson also claimed that black men aren't fit to live amongst whites. You can find this quote on Stormfront's site banner. And we all know he was a slaveowner.
Lincoln said that he would have won the Civil War without freeing a slave if possible.
James Madison, who basically wrote the constitution, hated democracy.

We can make a fair response without leaving the vicinity of the founding fathers.

[Chambered Word]

Thanks Joe Germinal, that clarifies a few small points about the origin of the quotes. I've also responded to the allegations that Marx said something about 'racial trash' as well.

The Marx/Engels quotes are just about done for the video.

[Martin Blank]

A good way to respond would be to go through Beck's 18/19th century heroes and show that they were a collection of slave-owners, anti-semites, masochists and violent homophobes. These were reactionary times, but in comparison to the founding fathers of the US, Marx looks pretty enlightened.

Some examples:
I think it was Jefferson who proposed forced physical castration for homosexuals.
Jefferson also claimed that black men aren't fit to live amongst whites. You can find this quote on Stormfront's site banner. And we all know he was a slaveowner.
Lincoln said that he would have won the Civil War without freeing a slave if possible.
James Madison, who basically wrote the constitution, hated democracy.

We can make a fair response without leaving the vicinity of the founding fathers.

Actually, when it comes to Beck, we can cut a little closer to the bone. After all, he's a Mormon, and they don't exactly have a good history on the questions of racism and anti-Semitism.

[Weezer]

I seriously hate this fucker with every inch of my soul. This man is vile and corrupt.

Our comrades in the Middle East die from fighting with reactionary Islamic terrorist forces that are vile and racist. The Left Wing trade unionists in Iraq died fighting both Baathist Fascists AND Islamic Radical during the failed invasion and occupation of Iraq by the US "liberating" army. The CP of Iraq denounces Islamists daily and risk death. I have kept in touch with members of the Iraqi Democratic Youth Federation (the youth wing of the ICP) and they say they risk daily attacks from Islamists and Baathists. Talk to any member of the Iraqi Federation of Trade Unions and ask him if he's a fucking Islamic or Baathist, Fascist sympathizer? He'll spit in your face.

Socialists risk their lives speaking out in Iran too. The Tudeh Party of Iran (Communists) were jailed in massive numbers by both the US supported Shah AND the Islamic Radical that took over during Khomenini's reign.

And fucking Beck dares, he fucking dares, to equate Socialists with racists, fascists and Islamic Radicals!

Comrades, I hope we make a series of videos that take on this guys twisted scheme.

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[Sendo]

The communists were the only predominantly white organization to fight for civil rights in the USA in the 1930s. See Eric Foner, The Story of American Freedom for more.

If only Beck would let someone versed in communist history, (like me, naturally*), on his show for FIVE GOD-DAMN SECONDS.

*kidding around.

[Uncle Rob]

The communists were the only predominantly white organization to fight for civil rights in the USA in the 1930s. See Eric Foner, The Story of American Freedom for more.

If only Beck would let someone versed in communist history, (like me, naturally*), on his show for FIVE GOD-DAMN SECONDS.

*kidding around.


Actually, Sam Webb went on his show. Beck, wouldn't even let the man speak, and then accused him of stealing his water that Beck had given him before the show.

Not that I care for Sam Webb or anything, he's a reformist, class traitor, but just saying, you DONT want to be on his show.


I would post the link butt I can't, Just look up "Glenn Beck Interviews Obama-Supporting Head of the Communist Party USA

[Tablo]

If they would let me on the show for just five seconds I would jump the ***** and beat him to pulp.

But we would seriously need to some how find a way to deliver real information to people in a way that is simple and entertaining if we even wanted to compete with this idiot. I'm just hoping people will get fed up with the current state of things and we will be active enough to explain the alternatives to them.

[Sendo]

Actually, Sam Webb went on his show. Beck, wouldn't even let the man speak, and then accused him of stealing his water that Beck had given him before the show.

Not that I care for Sam Webb or anything, he's a reformist, class traitor, but just saying, you DONT want to be on his show.


I would post the link butt I can't, Just look up "Glenn Beck Interviews Obama-Supporting Head of the Communist Party USA

I meant someone who is smart and a capable leftist, hopefully one who is not a revisionist or a moron. I remember that fiasco. The best I saw was one with two women who were communists (i forgot what group) on a couch/talk show thing. They did a really good job.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y70DZOIedhQ

found it. too bad it was about a minor issue and not a systemic discussion on commies vs cappies

[Martin Blank]

Actually, Sam Webb went on his show. Beck, wouldn't even let the man speak, and then accused him of stealing his water that Beck had given him before the show.

That's because Sam (who I know personally) is not built for that kind of "hit-and-run" style of interview ... and because Sam forgot to bring Peeps.


Not that I care for Sam Webb or anything, he's a reformist, class traitor, but just saying, you DONT want to be on his show.

Umm, funny that. I've sent more than one e-mail to him challenging him to put a real communist on, not Wilford Brimley with a lobotomy (sorry, Sam!). No response yet. And I told him I'd bring Peeps, too. :D

[The Red Next Door]

I think that his parents pay off his teachers from grade 1 to university to pass him, this guy is so fucking stupid. If we had did the same thing that he is doing to us, they would be all over our backs, trying to sue us.

[Sendo]

If we want to get on our high horses of intelligence, why hasn't anyone pointed out that the thread should be called "refutation"?

"Disputation" isn't a word. "Dispute" is. "Dispute" means argue, debate, or to have an argument, debate.

"Refutation" means the action of "refuting". Refuting something means saying something isn't true.

I hate to be a stickler for this stuff. But I was thinking, when dealing with the right, we need to keep the meaning of words static and concrete. Use simple language, use it correctly, and don't let the right co-opt it. Example: "free enterprise".