The Myth of Mondragon andother co-ops....

[RadioRaheem84]

Someone pointed out a book here with the same title as this thread. It seems like there is tension between the workers and managers at Mondragon, the cooperative is using exploitative labor in Poland, and it's been known to suffer losses at the expense of the workers.

Is this more of the result of co-ops competing in a market capitalist economy or the result of the failure of co-ops themselves? I've also read that one of the factories in Argentina famously shown in the documentary The Take, has fired all of the leftist workers.

Are the setbacks of the co-op movement or co-ops in general due to the laws being in favor of capitalist enterprises? The state sometimes tries to place barriers against them?

Do co-ops compromise a lot of their initial values because of the system? Or is the co-op just really inefficient an an unworkable ideology?

[cyu]

It seems like there is tension between the workers and managers at Mondragon, the cooperative is using exploitative labor in Poland


Indeed there are problems. There is still a pay differential between those at the bottom rungs versus those at the top. While this pay differential may not be as large as most capitalist companies, it still exists. In addition, not everyone who technically works for Mondragon actually has a vote - in some cases, the Mondragon the organization acts as the capitalist, hires non-voting workers, and extracts their "surplus value".

The thing with Mondragon, though, is that it is not an ideological organization in the sense that a group of communists or anarchists may be. They just have a bunch of employees that enter the organization from all walks of life - some may be left-wingers, some may be right-wingers. Among the ones that do have the right to vote, it has similarities to any other democracy - there will be factions pushing for this or that, like political parties. Just as democracies in the past thought they were perfectly compatible with slavery, organizations like Mondragon can also be plagued with oppression and sociopathy.



Is this more of the result of co-ops competing in a market capitalist economy


Depending on what you count as capitalism, then yes, I would say it is because they are forced to operate within capitalism. Capitalism, for example, creates the religion of consumerism with its advertising. The result is that this religion is then used to draw people away with promises of more stuff to stick in your closet. Being immersed in an environment of advertising also affects the members of Mondragon, resulting in some demanding to be paid more than others.

Capitalism also affects co-ops in other ways. In Argentina, for example, some capitalist-dominated companies simply refused to do business with free companies. Obviously if almost all other companies were free, then the non-free companies wouldn't be able to survive. However, when non-free companies dominate the landscape and refuse to do business with free ones, then the free ones would feel the heat, maybe even be pressured to kick out their more militant employees.

At the government level, obviously capitalists control the government - either through campaign contributions or because the politicians are capitalists themselves and were able to self-finance their campaigns. When you have a plutocracy, obviously policies will be passed to try as much as possible to prevent employees from freeing themselves. These policies may not always be blatant, but they will always be there as long as the plutocrats hold the reigns of power.

[RadioRaheem84]

So with all it's faults, Mondragon is still something to somewhat champion? Can we attribute it's faults and the faults of other co-ops to leftover vestiges of capitalism quite like capitalist today functions with some leftover feudal vestiges? It's just that in order to survive these co-ops have to compromise and adapt to capitalist society? There is nothing wrong with the cooperative workers self management movement itself?

I think that most of the time, Right Libertarians use the shortcomings of co-ops in a capitalist society as a way to discredit their efficiency and use.

[Raúl Duke]

It's just that in order to survive these co-ops have to compromise and adapt to capitalist society? There is nothing wrong with the cooperative workers self management movement itself?Yep, exactly

Although I wonder say we shouldn't "champion" Mondragon as it is now especially if they're exploiting workers. Perhaps the issue is that co-ops under capitalism are perhaps only sustainable in a small-business type of model instead of a conglomerate like Mondragon which I think has factories outside of northern Spain (such as Poland)

[RadioRaheem84]

Mondragon just seems like such a successful example against the many corporations raising hell all over the world. Maybe we should always point out the faults of the cooperative due to the capitalist society it inhabits. The point is that it's possible.

[robbo203]

Mondragon just seems like such a successful example against the many corporations raising hell all over the world. Maybe we should always point out the faults of the cooperative due to the capitalist society it inhabits. The point is that it's possible.


You need to be aware that Mondragon has had some pretty negative coverage for its record as a capitalist employer. See this http://libcom.org/forums/news/mondragon-capitalists-exploitation-repression-poland-20072008

[RadioRaheem84]

You need to be aware that Mondragon has had some pretty negative coverage for its record as a capitalist employer. See this http://libcom.org/forums/news/mondragon-capitalists-exploitation-repression-poland-20072008


Oooh. Ouch. That is pretty bad. Well, then back to the drawing board.

How are we supposed to support the co-op workers self management movement when a lot of them capitulate to capitalist market and society? First this then the purge of leftists from one of the plants in the doc the Take. I mean what I am looking for is at least some practical and successful example of workers self management.

[Robocommie]

Oooh. Ouch. That is pretty bad. Well, then back to the drawing board.

How are we supposed to support the co-op workers self management movement when a lot of them capitulate to capitalist market and society? First this then the purge of leftists from one of the plants in the doc the Take. I mean what I am looking for is at least some practical and successful example of workers self management.

Well, the successes and practical benefits of worker's co-ops are not going to lie in the ability to compete with capitalist firms, because that is not their purpose. The fact that these organizations become adulterated or even permeated with capitalist practices does more to underscore the need for a radical reformation of the economy, in my opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutzim

You should check out that article. The kibbutzim were largely agricultural in their makeup, and of course, colonial in intent, but it's an interesting example of socialist collectives in practice and the problems they run into.

[RadioRaheem84]

Well, the successes and practical benefits of worker's co-ops are not going to lie in the ability to compete with capitalist firms, because that is not their purpose. The fact that these organizations become adulterated or even permeated with capitalist practices does more to underscore the need for a radical reformation of the economy, in my opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutzim

You should check out that article. The kibbutzim were largely agricultural in their makeup, and of course, colonial in intent, but it's an interesting example of socialist collectives in practice and the problems they run into.

Yeah I thought that Kibbutzism ended up being quite problematic and hired low wage no-Jewish workers to do a lot of work.

[cyu]

Mondragon is still something to somewhat champion?

I wouldn't say any particular organization or individual is something to champion, but rather it should be their specific policies or actions that you should champion. Just as democracies can do pretty hateful and stupid things, but just because they do, that doesn't invalidate them in favor of dictatorships.


There is nothing wrong with the cooperative workers self management movement itself?

There may be certain things wrong with specific cooperatives, just as there are many different types of democracies that have certain specific problems. The American electoral college, for example, is one of the things wrong with its attempt at implementing elections. It's just a sign that various organizational structures can be improved. In general though, I don't see how having employees decide their own fate could be worse than having their fate decided by some pro-capitalist.

Cooperatives themselves can't be the only solution to capitalism though, even though I think they can play an important part. The same is true of the transportation system. What if everyone had cars and buses, but you were missing any one of the following: roads, traffic signs, street names, easy to find gas stations. Sure the cars can still get you around without some of those things, but the system would probably be better if you included the rest of the good stuff.

[robbo203]

There was a review of a book on worker run factories in Argentina posted on our website which may be relevant http://groups.yahoo.com/group/worldincommon/message/10033


Unpredictable Futures: Stories From Worker-Run Factories in Argentina
Written by Benjamin Dangl
Tuesday, 24 November 2009

Sin Patron: Stories From Argentina's Worker-Run Factories, edited by Lavaca,
320 pages, Haymarket Books, 2007.

Following the social upheaval in Argentina in 2001-2002 a book was published in
Spanish that a lot of activists and independent journalists in the country began
trying to get their hands on. It wasn't in all of the bookstores, but news about
it traveled like wildfire. Now the legendary book, Sin Patron: Stories From
Argentina's Worker-Run Factories, is translated and available to the
English-speaking world.

The book includes a number of illuminating interviews and chapters by Lavaca, a
journalism collective based in Buenos Aires that continues to produce some of
the best analysis and stories on social movements in the country. With Sin
Patron, Lavaca brings together dynamic voices and stories from the hearts of
Argentina's inspiring movements.

The timing couldn't be better for the release of this book in English. Readers
in the US seeking creative solutions to the current economic crisis may find
some helpful suggestions in Sin Patron.

Workers in Argentina during that country's crash figured out they needed to go
beyond the law to survive. "For workers in Argentina there is no law. It only
exists for the powerful," said Eduardo Murua, President of the National Movement
of Reclaimed Companies. "If we were stuck outside [of the factory] asking the
judge to keep it open, we would get nowhere. If we were to ask politicians, we'd
get even less. Only through occupation could we recover the jobs."

One story of occupation and worker control told in Sin Patron is that of Sime
Quarry, located in the province of Entre Rios. The owners of the quarry ran the
business into the ground, but it was taken over by its workers and kept in
operation under worker-control. Leading up to the closure the bosses abused the
workers verbally and physically. María del Huerto, 45 years old, said that in
December of 2002 the bosses of the quarry "gave us a 35-day unscheduled
vacation." The "vacation" lasted until January 20th, when the workers went back
to the quarry to find it abandoned. It was "a pasture with no lights, running
water, or telephone service. Nothing. It was desolate," María said. Just a few
machines were left.

María met with fellow workers and members of the Movement of Recuperated
Companies, and they discussed taking over the quarry themselves. They decided to
arm themselves before the takeover in case they ran into any resistance. "We
took firearms, and some neighbors lent us shotguns. We announced that we didn't
want to shoot anyone, but wanted to defend our workplace and keep the bosses
from stealing anything else."

It was a terribly hot time of the year and mosquitoes were everywhere. No one
had any money, so they used the guns to hunt. "To eat, the men hunted apereá
rabbits – they're brown; they look like big mice. They also fished caruchas from
a nearby lagoon, and Don Joaquín would send us tarpon fish from the market. What
had happened to us? We thought of ourselves as middle class, and here we were,
begging and hunting to make ends meet," María said. At one point, the workers
were getting so desperate they had to sell furniture in order to buy meat.

Over time, they formed a cooperative and a judge ordered the plant be given over
to them in April of 2003. Now the quarry is back in business, fully operational
under worker-management.

The Zanon ceramics factory was also occupied and put under worker control around
the same time. Reinaldo Giménez, a long time worker at Zanon, spoke of when the
business was closing down and the boss refused to pay the workers what was owed
to them. The boss "put everyone in the same boat, and the workers with the
longest tenures said, `This scumbag should have paid me. I gave him my life, but
he has no feelings, no compassion, and he makes no distinctions.'"

The tension with the boss blew up, and the workers went on strike, setting up
tents outside the factory, marching, picketing and organizing a communal
kitchen. Local schools, workers and neighbors helped out however they could;
even prisoners in jail supported the workers by donating their food. The workers
reached out to the community, explaining their plight to passersby. Locals
empathized with them because they were hard-working people with families. It was
this connection and support from the community that helped the workers of Zanon
eventually transform the factory into a cooperative. Ramírez said, "We always
said the factory isn't ours. We are using it, but it belongs to the community."

That's a key message at the heart of this book – that these failed factories and
businesses should belong to the people, not the wealthy bosses who mistreated
workers and then abandoned ship. Such challenges to classic ideas of private
property and workplace hierarchy course through every page in Sin Patron. These
examples of worker management defy the bankrupt logic of capitalism itself.

Angry workers everywhere should grab a copy of Sin Patron to read of the
Argentines who built new worlds when the old ones failed. As the Lavaca editors
write in the introduction to their book, "The limit of all prediction is what
people are capable of doing. It is not chance, but courage, that makes the
future unpredictable."

***

Benjamin Dangl is the editor of TowardFreedom.com, a progressive perspective on
world events and UpsideDownWorld.org, a website on activism and politics in
Latin America. He is the author of The Price of Fire: Resource Wars and Social
Movements in Bolivia (AK Press) and the forthcoming book Dancing with Dynamite:
Social Movements and States in Latin America (AK Press).

[RadioRaheem84]

Excellent. Thanks.

[Nick_Djinn]

There is something I would like to point out here.

The Mondragon Corporation itself is aware and very concerned about the issue in Polland and elsewhere. Some of these co-ops have been usurped by others who do not share the Mondragon Ideals and were not trained in their philosophy at their schools like the workers in the Basque region are.

In the Basque region they have a long history of similar schools of thought, with the Anarcho-Syndicalist uprisings and similar models used in business at that time....Models which saved the economy. In the Basque region in Spain these problems are not occurring.

I am not sure it would be fair to blame the entire organization for this companies actions....I think that the Mondragon co-op should do something about this, perhaps cut them loose if they fail to comply with their ideals. Unlike all of the co-ops in the Basque region some of the foreign co-ops are not entirely democratically run. This should be a requirement.

My understanding is that the Mondragon co-op IS taking action to confront this problem and will be taking a vote to require all co-ops to make all members equal partners.


What is happening in Polland is inexcusable, but not representative of the entire group.


I feel that the Mondragon corporation should be somewhat defended, because despite its problems (And the problems that would undoubtedly arise in an Anarchist society at least sometimes), this is the single most successful example of the syndicalist co-op model in practice. If we can point to them as an example then its hard to say that our ideas are just silly pipe dreams that are not practical when the rubber hits the road....This company is hugely successful and can out compete the capitalist model nd continue to grow.

In my opinion, few western corporations are a nice to work for as the Mondragon corporation INSIDE the Basque region.....Some of these expansion groups are straying from the path, though I can also understand why they would want to branch out and not give up on them yet.....I mean, if the workers who are protesting could replace their leadership then there is no reason to abandon them.

I think we should wait and see how the Mondragon corporation deals with this problem before we judge them.

[syndicat]

Workers management under the revolution in spain in the '30s has nothing in common with the Mondragon cooperatives. Workers self-management in the '30s was part of a movement to destroy capitalism and replace it with a socially planned, self-managed economy, in which workers would be in control. the Mondragon cooperatives had a more limited purpose, as a means to national economic development for the Basque nation.

When cooperatives operate within capitalism, they must compete with capitalist firms. Capitalism firms offer major perks to engineers, financial experts, marketeers etc to attract them. Because education is a public good, capitalism tends to restrict its availability and this makes expertise scarce.

So a cooperative that wants to hire people with marketing savvy, engineering expertise, etc. will be under pressure to match the perks they can get in capitalist firms. So the Mondragon cooperatives operate with the same internal hierarchy and division of labor as a capitalist firm. The best book on this subject is Sharryn Kasmir's "The Myth of Mondragon."

It is possible to form a cooperative that is more collective and less hierarchical than the Mondragon coops, but it will depend on the political values and commitment of the founders, and also on continuing internal education. Education would be important as a way to develop skills of workers, as well as to educate about socialist values.

[RadioRaheem84]

Are there any co-operatives that retain the model of workers self management? Perhaps some of the ones in Venezuela?

Trying to get a hold of a doc called 5 Factories about the auto-gestion movement in Chavez's Venezuela.

[Nick_Djinn]

When cooperatives operate within capitalism, they must compete with capitalist firms. Capitalism firms offer major perks to engineers, financial experts, marketeers etc to attract them. Because education is a public good, capitalism tends to restrict its availability and this makes expertise scarce.

Is it bad that people can make good money working for Mondragon? Are we supposed to take vows of poverty when we become Anarchists?

I think that many Anarchists, especially modern Anarchists, make the mistake of thinking that if the system is corrupt and exploits workers then we are sellouts if we ever gain any material resources...This places us at a serious disadvantage.


So the Mondragon cooperatives operate with the same internal hierarchy and division of labor as a capitalist firm. The best book on this subject is Sharryn Kasmir's "The Myth of Mondragon

I dont agree with this statement. Based on the documentary I saw I see huge differences between the plutocracy of a corporation like Coca-Cola and the democratically elected delegates and board that you find in Mondragon....There seems to be problems and some left to be desired, but I cant agree with the position that it is the same. Its not.


It is possible to form a cooperative that is more collective and less hierarchical than the Mondragon coops, but it will depend on the political values and commitment of the founders, and also on continuing internal education. Education would be important as a way to develop skills of workers, as well as to educate about socialist values.

Personally I am not against 'Responsible Positions' or even labor specialization. What I am against is the creation of an unaccountable elite. If our representatives are hand chosen from our very small circles and placed on rotation, and this moves progressively upward in a direct democratic fashion, I find this much preferable to the kind of top-down democratic centralism that is found in 'representative democracy' and a whole lot better to the oligarchy of corporate rule.

[Nick_Djinn]

I might agree that they are dissimilar to the revolutionary Syndicalists or the IWW in that they are not actively trying to abolish capitalism and the state. I see what you are saying there, but the organizational model is actually closer to what the Anarcho-Syndicalists practiced than some of you are giving them credit for. Federations of unions with elected management and workers specialization is exactly what we saw in Spain during the civil war.

Granted, the Mondragon Corporation is not revolutionary and perhaps not truly Anarchist because of that, but they are the single most successful example of workers self management.


These poor examples that you find in a few of the co-ops are not representative of the entire group. Regardless of these poor examples, which we should oppose and stand in solidarity with those who strike, I still believe that it is inspiring to see that a business operating on the co-op model can out-compete capitalism....It is MORE efficient and productive than capitalism, which was always its boasting point against Communism which tended to be less economically advantageous....and in some instances like in China, left workers even worse off than they are in poor capitalist countries working longer hours for less pay and no free health care. China is a real disappointment to the socialist cause.


If you dont think that Mondragon is better than Procter and Gamble or McDonnalds, then I would say that you are not looking at this objectively and are perhaps judging them unfairly harshly because they have been so blown up and placed on a pedestal....When you elevate something to that status, even minor flaws start to feel like betrayals...And I dont believe that these co-ops in Polland are representative of most of the co-ops in the Basque region though there may be a few other bad examples as well.

I dont feel it is productive to completely discredit and work against them, unless you oppose the co-op model in favor of submitting to a Communist party and want to look at their failures as justification for state takeover of the unions...then trash talking them makes sense....

Otherwise I think it is best to realize that they fall short of a revolutionary movement, but still are living proof that the cooperative work model can out compete capitalism and provide a healthy economy for the people....And we could make something even more radial and revolutionary. We could take whats good about their corporation but leave out the bad. We dont have to act like they are worse than the Microsoft, because they are not.

[RadioRaheem84]

Exactly. Mondragon is not perfect by any means or has not been the best example of Anarcho-Syndicalists but overall its stance of one that stands on the side of workers self management. It is preferable to Coca Cola or Microsoft and has even worked a deal with the United Auto Workers of America. I think that we should push for the company to promote more democratic control, not whether the corporation is a perfect example of what we want in an era of absolute tyranny in the workplace.

[chegitz guevara]

Rosa Luxemburg wrote about co-operatives in her famous work, Reform or Revolution. I highly recommend it.

[RadioRaheem84]

I take it they were most likely in the reform, camp, eh?

[syndicat]

Is it bad that people can make good money working for Mondragon? Are we supposed to take vows of poverty when we become Anarchists?

I think that many Anarchists, especially modern Anarchists, make the mistake of thinking that if the system is corrupt and exploits workers then we are sellouts if we ever gain any material resources...This places us at a serious disadvantage.


I think if we want a society based on equality, we have to fight against capitalist wage differentials.

But it isn't just a question of wage differentials. It's about power. According to Kasmir, there are proportionately more managers at the Mondragon coops than in similar capitalist firms in the Basque country.

Workers there are subordinate to a bureaucratic class...just as in, say, the old Soviet Union. Wage differentials in the USSR between top and bottom were also way less than under western corporate capitalism. But that doesn't show it wasn't a class society based on subordination and exploitation of the working class.




Originally Posted by syndicat http://www.revleft.org/vb/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1684190#post1684190)
So the Mondragon cooperatives operate with the same internal hierarchy and division of labor as a capitalist firm. The best book on this subject is Sharryn Kasmir's "The Myth of Mondragon


I dont agree with this statement. Based on the documentary I saw I see huge differences between the plutocracy of a corporation like Coca-Cola and the democratically elected delegates and board that you find in Mondragon....There seems to be problems and some left to be desired, but I cant agree with the position that it is the same. Its not.


But management and high end professionals are disproportionately represented on boards. and manual workers are not given the time and training to learn things like engineering and financial analysis so there is no way they can challenge the plans presented by financial officers and managers at annual meetings. nor do workers have any say in the day to day workings. they are subordinates of their bosses, just like in a capitalist firm.

to put it another way, there is class hierarchy internal to the coops. is that what you want? a merely more benign system of class domination? count me out.