Lenin's Memorial Day.

[Soviet]

http://prometej.info/new/images/stories/Lenin-prometej.info_copy.jpg

AT JANYARY,21th 1924 DIED V.I.LENIN.

[Q]

Ok, so what?

[bricolage]

Put him in the ground already.

[Muzk]

And our great leader Stalin succeeded what Lenin hath started!:drool:

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Should we line the streets in honour of beloved Lenin? :rolleyes:

[Comrade Anarchist]

we ought to burn the soviet flag at this time in honor of the horror he created.

[Red Isa]

http://prometej.info/new/images/stories/Lenin-prometej.info_copy.jpg

AT JANYARY,21th 1924 DIED V.I.LENIN.

Lenin is my favorite. :wub: Stalin was a disgrace. :cursing:

[The Author]

http://img.allposters.com/6/LRG/22/2255/JDXZD00Z.jpg

Lenin Lived,
Lenin is Alive,
Lenin Will Live!

[Fletcher]

Lets have a big bonfire and burn the murdering scumbags body

[Q]

To be clear: I disagree with all people that simply put him away as a "murdering scumbag" and the like. On the other hand I also disagree with this cult around him.

Lenin was a human being with his flaws and strengths. He wanted to be buried alongside his mother and it is nigh time we did just that.

[Tablo]

I don't think Lenin was some evil dude who wanted the USSR to turn into an authoritarian bearucratic mess. He is a very positive political figure when you compare him to every other politician the world has ever known.. not that that says much. Now Stalin is a whole other story! xD

[Kayser_Soso]

I don't think Lenin was some evil dude who wanted the USSR to turn into an authoritarian bearucratic mess. He is a very positive political figure when you compare him to every other politician the world has ever known.. not that that says much. Now Stalin is a whole other story! xD

Actually Stalin is pretty much the same story- forced by conditions of the time. There is almost nothing Stalin did that Lenin hadn't done before.

[Kayser_Soso]

Lenin is my favorite. :wub: Stalin was a disgrace. :cursing:

Stalin is what kept the union Lenin helped found alive, in case you didn't remember.

[The Author]

On the other hand I also disagree with this cult around him.

Lenin was a human being with his flaws and strengths. He wanted to be buried alongside his mother and it is nigh time we did just that.

While I agree with you on the cult problem, I will not consent to the idea that Lenin should be buried. Yes, he had his flaws and strengths. But he was also an important historical figure, and I would like the opportunity to see this man in person while he "sleeps." I never lived in his time, I never got to see the man on the podium deliver his speeches or agitate the masses to rise up and fight. The purpose for his embalming was so that people at the time who never got to see Lenin in person, and future generations of people who never saw Lenin in person could get to see the man and never miss out on this opportunity. It takes heart, spiritual inspiration and a sense of pride to meet the man in person, whereas merely reading his literature or looking at a portrait or statue of him does not do justice. Is it cultish? Yes. Is it wrong to want to see Lenin in person and to feel like you were part of the October Revolution and the struggles of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries throughout the regions of the Russian Empire that later became the U.S.S.R. and to feel the presence of this man? No, it is not. I'd rather see Lenin in person in the mausoleum than to see him dumped in some cold grave or cremated like garbage just because some people don't have the spiritual heart or the respect for the man, and a symbol of the living legacy of the October Revolution that never died no matter how hard the counterrevolution wanted and wants to bury it.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Actually Stalin is pretty much the same story- forced by conditions of the time. There is almost nothing Stalin did that Lenin hadn't done before.
Really? I wasn't aware that Lenin had already killed all his friends before Stalin got around to it.

As for the question of Lenin's body - he should have been buried in 1924. But today, 86 years later, things have changed. His body has become a powerful symbol. Today it would be an extremely bad idea to bury Lenin's body. The capitalist media would immediately spin the event as "burying communism." We must not bury Lenin until socialism has been restored in Russia.

[Kayser_Soso]

Really? I wasn't aware that Lenin had already killed all his friends before Stalin got around to it.

As for the question of Lenin's body - he should have been buried in 1924. But today, 86 years later, things have changed. His body has become a powerful symbol. Today it would be an extremely bad idea to bury Lenin's body. The capitalist media would immediately spin the event as "burying communism." We must not bury Lenin until socialism has been restored in Russia.

I don't remember Stalin personally killing anyone. And the word almost exists for a reason. Read Stalin: A New History to see how hist methods were not far removed from Lenin.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

At the risk of opening up a can of worms, I do find it laughable that Trots (i'm not an anti-Trot, normally, so this isn't a sectarian shot) paint Lenin as some sort of heroic figure, and then portray Stalin as 'this well evil dude' type person.

I'm not saying that I believe that Lenin was pure evil or hero, or that Stalin was either pure evil or hero, but it is pretty ridiculous to paint them as polar opposites. They were both of the same ideological current. Obviously one can find policy differences, attitudal differences dating to before 1917, but overall it is a somewhat desperate analysis.

[Kayser_Soso]

At the risk of opening up a can of worms, I do find it laughable that Trots (i'm not an anti-Trot, normally, so this isn't a sectarian shot) paint Lenin as some sort of heroic figure, and then portray Stalin as 'this well evil dude' type person.

I'm not saying that I believe that Lenin was pure evil or hero, or that Stalin was either pure evil or hero, but it is pretty ridiculous to paint them as polar opposites. They were both of the same ideological current. Obviously one can find policy differences, attitudal differences dating to before 1917, but overall it is a somewhat desperate analysis.

Trotsky himself could be pretty ruthless as well.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Indeed. For me, Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin were all very similar (i'll refrain from phrases such as 'one and the same') in their ideological outlook. They are all from the school of Bolshevism, what we now call anti-revisionism or Marxism-Leninism. I have no doubt that any of them would have supported rapid industrialisation, the movement of poorer peasants onto collective farms and state farms, and the annihilation of the kulak class. As much as I do not dislike in any way modern Trotskyist groups, it is their historical analysis of the USSR and of 'their leader', I suppose, that worries me.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Trotsky himself could be pretty ruthless as well.
Indeed. But I don't think any communist opposes Stalin for being "too ruthless" in general. Rather, many communists oppose Stalin for directing his ruthlessness at the wrong targets, and using it for counter-revolutionary purposes.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Really? I wasn't aware that Lenin had already killed all his friends before Stalin got around to it.

As for the question of Lenin's body - he should have been buried in 1924. But today, 86 years later, things have changed. His body has become a powerful symbol. Today it would be an extremely bad idea to bury Lenin's body. The capitalist media would immediately spin the event as "burying communism." We must not bury Lenin until socialism has been restored in Russia.

There was an interesting idea floated around during the latter years of Putin's presidency about having some sort of war memorial just outside of Moscow. Lenin would have been buried in some sort of memorial resembling the architecture of the mausoleum.

As for the mausoleum itself, it could be converted into a war memorial at the heart of Red Square, perhaps for some unknown soldier.

[Kayser_Soso]

There was an interesting idea floated around during the latter years of Putin's presidency about having some sort of war memorial just outside of Moscow. Lenin would have been buried in some sort of memorial resembling the architecture of the mausoleum.

As for the mausoleum itself, it could be converted into a war memorial at the heart of Red Square, perhaps for some unknown soldier.

The unknown soldier memorial already exists. It's around the corner from the museum(turn north, follow Kremlin wall around).

I am sick of Putin's fascists putting up WWII memorials- they represent the exact opposite of everything those people fought and died for.

[DenisDenis]

i'm just wondering now but isn't a part of socialism as a road to communism, to remove counter-revolutionary elements in society? Maybe he just took that a bit too literally :s. Wouldn't you think about doing the same if you were in charge of the USSR while there were lots of counter-revolutionaries that wanted to see you fall, and kind of threatened everything.

Normally i'm not into defending staling but i think to some degree they did what had to be done, but ofcourse there are other ways to remove the counter-revolutionaries from positions where they could threaten a revolution...

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

i'm just wondering now but isn't a part of socialism as a road to communism, to remove counter-revolutionary elements in society? Maybe he just took that a bit too literally :s. Wouldn't you think about doing the same if you were in charge of the USSR while there were lots of counter-revolutionaries that wanted to see you fall, and kind of threatened everything.

Normally i'm not into defending staling but i think to some degree they did what had to be done, but ofcourse there are other ways to remove the counter-revolutionaries from positions where they could threaten a revolution...

Allowing the overwhelming majority of the Central Committee to be killed is not really an efficient way of advancing Socialism.

[DenisDenis]

hmm your right, well like i said i'm not really a defender of stalin or anything but I think in the early days sometimes the "opposing elements" have to be removed to ensure the revolution keeps going...

[Kayser_Soso]

Allowing the overwhelming majority of the Central Committee to be killed is not really an efficient way of advancing Socialism.


The overwhelming majority of the Central Committee?

[The Author]

There was an interesting idea floated around during the latter years of Putin's presidency about having some sort of war memorial just outside of Moscow. Lenin would have been buried in some sort of memorial resembling the architecture of the mausoleum.

As for the mausoleum itself, it could be converted into a war memorial at the heart of Red Square, perhaps for some unknown soldier.

I remember this too, it was called the "Federal Military Memorial Cemetery" and according to the Daily Telegraph it was supposed to be finished this year, functioning like an Arlington style cemetery but for Russia. It's more really of an attempt by the politicians to get rid of the Kremlin Wall Necropolis and restore the Tsarist atmosphere which existed there pre-October Revolution. Daily Telegraph and Wikipedia articles on this can be found here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1582500/Vladimir-Putins-last-resting-place---with-Stalin.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Military_Memorial_Cemetery


The unknown soldier memorial already exists. It's around the corner from the museum(turn north, follow Kremlin wall around).

Interesting bit of trivia in case Jacob is interested: the guards that used to watch the Lenin Mausoleum now watch the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier thanks to a hypocritical political stunt pulled by Yeltsin to "remember the Great Patriotic War."


I am sick of Putin's fascists putting up WWII memorials- they represent the exact opposite of everything those people fought and died for.I agree. The "City of Military Glory" title is the first thing that comes to my mind. I know the point is to mimic the Hero Cities of the Soviet time but it's just a piss-poor imitation. There are many more WWII memorials that are just falling apart throughout Eastern Europe and the former U.S.S.R. (the recent demolition of the monument in Kutaisi, Georgia as a political stunt by the Saakashvili gang last month comes to mind).

[Die Neue Zeit]

I remember this too, it was called the "Federal Military Memorial Cemetery" and according to the Daily Telegraph it was supposed to be finished this year, functioning like an Arlington style cemetery but for Russia. It's more really of an attempt by the politicians to get rid of the Kremlin Wall Necropolis and restore the Tsarist atmosphere which existed there pre-October Revolution. Daily Telegraph and Wikipedia articles on this can be found here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1582500/Vladimir-Putins-last-resting-place---with-Stalin.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Military_Memorial_Cemetery

Thank you very much for the name and links. However, they wouldn't be stupid enough to blow up the mausoleum too, right?

I mean, even nationalists feel a certain pride seeing themselves or their leaders atop very elevated rostrums for military parades.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The overwhelming majority of the Central Committee?

Out of 139 Central Committee members present at the 1936 Party Congress, 98 were dead or imprisoned in the Gulag by the end of the decade. I'd call that an overwhelming majority.

[Kayser_Soso]

Out of 139 Central Committee members present at the 1936 Party Congress, 98 were dead or imprisoned in the Gulag by the end of the decade. I'd call that an overwhelming majority.

And this is all Stalin's fault?

[Tifosi]

Power corrupts! Simple

[robbo203]

As for the question of Lenin's body - he should have been buried in 1924. But today, 86 years later, things have changed. His body has become a powerful symbol. Today it would be an extremely bad idea to bury Lenin's body. The capitalist media would immediately spin the event as "burying communism." We must not bury Lenin until socialism has been restored in Russia.


Yes , why not just bury the bloke without any further ado along with brutal state capitalist regime that the Bolsheviks gave rise to. Good riddance. One more obstacle out of the way of working class self emancipation

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Yes , why not just bury the bloke without any further ado along with brutal state capitalist regime that the Bolsheviks gave rise to. Good riddance. One more obstacle out of the way of working class self emancipation
You utterly fail at understanding the importance of symbols and legends in politics. The fact is, Lenin is seen throughout Eastern Europe as the single greatest symbol of communism, no matter what the truth about him or the USSR might be. Do you get that? To the overwhelming majority of people, the true class nature of the USSR simply Does. Not. Matter.

Anything that helps the reputation of Lenin or the USSR helps the reputation of communism. Anything that hurts the reputation of Lenin or the USSR hurts the reputation of communism. End of story.

Edit: And the only way to ever change that is to have a very high-profile, well known communist organization or movement that does not claim to be in the Leninist tradition. To my knowledge, nothing even remotely close to that has existed since 1939.

[robbo203]

You utterly fail at understanding the importance of symbols and legends in politics. The fact is, Lenin is seen throughout Eastern Europe as the single greatest symbol of communism, no matter what the truth about him or the USSR might be. Do you get that? To the overwhelming majority of people, the true class nature of the USSR simply Does. Not. Matter. .

I get that and what a disaster for the communist cause that it should be thus identified with a state capitalist dictatroship. Time for a healthy dose of iconoclasm I think




Anything that helps the reputation of Lenin or the USSR helps the reputation of communism. Anything that hurts the reputation of Lenin or the USSR hurts the reputation of communism. End of story..

End of story. my arse. Anything that demolishes the link between state capitalism and communism will enhance the reputation of the latter immeasurably

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

And this is all Stalin's fault?

Obviously, i'm not saying that Stalin was personally attributable for every single death that occurred on his watch. I'm no Robert Conquest. However, the key phrase here, is on his watch. There is no way you can make a sane argument for the people, having the information about the deaths that were occurring at the time (which they would have had through the multiple trials - Piatakov, Radek, Trotsky, Bukharin, Zinoviev, Kamenev...the list goes on), democratically supporting the continued rule of somebody, in whose leadership, so many murders were carried out.

I guess this is old ground, you have your views and I have mine. All i'm saying is that it is wrong to execute other Socialists for opposing the prevelant Marxist-Leninist line of the day. That, essentially, is why it seems to me that the likes of Bukharin and Trotsky were liquidated, not because they were somehow in cahoots with the Rockerfellers of this world.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

I get that and what a disaster for the communist cause that it should be thus identified with a state capitalist dictatroship. Time for a healthy dose of iconoclasm I think.
Heh. An excellent metaphor. Iconoclasm would be precisely as "healthy" for communism as it was for the Church. I do not know of any movement, organization, or intellectual tradition that has ever improved its fortunes by attacking its own symbols.


End of story. my arse. Anything that demolishes the link between state capitalism and communism will enhance the reputation of the latter immeasurably
Communism does not have any reputation separate from the reputation of what you call "state capitalism." There is nothing to be enhanced.

[Black Sheep]

However, the key phrase here, is on his watch. There is no way you can make a sane argument for the people, having the information about the deaths that were occurring at the time (which they would have had through the multiple trials - Piatakov, Radek, Trotsky, Bukharin, Zinoviev, Kamenev...the list goes on), democratically supporting the continued rule of somebody, in whose leadership, so many murders were carried out.

It's not that important to hold Stalin himself accountable for these actions, but whether or not you will defend these actions, and along with other huge "errors" according to the definition of socialism and workers' democracy.
I.e. whether you will call the stalinist period existing socialism, the level on which you will defend it, etc

[robbo203]

Communism does not have any reputation separate from the reputation of what you call "state capitalism." There is nothing to be enhanced.

So the rich tradition of uncompromising communist opposition to state capitalisms everywhere , according to you, is to be wiped out from the pages of history by diktat. Communists are to be consigned to some kind of historical gulag archipelego and turned into non-persons. This says more about you than it does aout the reputation of communists

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

It's not that important to hold Stalin himself accountable for these actions, but whether or not you will defend these actions, and along with other huge "errors" according to the definition of socialism and workers' democracy.
I.e. whether you will call the stalinist period existing socialism, the level on which you will defend it, etc

A good point, but surely the guilt of Stalin accompanies any conclusion that condemns the period of mass executions 1937-38?