Log in

View Full Version : Socialism and Catholicism



JAH23
19th January 2010, 04:38
First, let just say that I am an atheist, but know quite a bit about Catholicism because my parents adhere to the religion. While Catholicism has many flaws, its "Social Teachings" definitely caught my attention. Take a look.

1. Dignity of the Human Person

Belief in the inherent dignity of the human person is the foundation of all Catholic social teaching. Human life is sacred, and the dignity of the human person is the starting point for a moral vision for society. This principle is grounded in the idea that the person is made in the image of God. The person is the clearest reflection of God among us.

2. Common Good and Community

The human person is both sacred and social. We realize our dignity and rights in relationship with others, in community. Human beings grow and achieve fulfillment in community. Human dignity can only be realized and protected in the context of relationships with the wider society.

How we organize our society -- in economics and politics, in law and policy -- directly affects human dignity and the capacity of individuals to grow in community. The obligation to "love our neighbor" has an individual dimension, but it also requires a broader social commitment. Everyone has a responsibility to contribute to the good of the whole society, to the common good.

3. Option for the Poor

The moral test of a society is how it treats its most vulnerable members. The poor have the most urgent moral claim on the conscience of the nation. We are called to look at public policy decisions in terms of how they affect the poor. The "option for the poor," is not an adversarial slogan that pits one group or class against another. Rather it states that the deprivation and powerlessness of the poor wounds the whole community.

The option for the poor is an essential part of society's effort to achieve the common good. A healthy community can be achieved only if its members give special attention to those with special needs, to those who are poor and on the margins of society.

4. Rights and Responsibilities

Human dignity can be protected and a healthy community can be achieved only if human rights are protected and responsibilities are met. Every person has a fundamental right to life and a right to those things required for human decency – starting with food, shelter and clothing, employment, health care, and education. Corresponding to these rights are duties and responsibilities -- to one another, to our families, and to the larger society.

5.Role of Government and Subsidiarity

The state has a positive moral function. It is an instrument to promote human dignity, protect human rights, and build the common good. All people have a right and a responsibility to participate in political institutions so that government can achieve its proper goals.

The principle of subsidiarity holds that the functions of government should be performed at the lowest level possible, as long as they can be performed adequately. When the needs in question cannot adequately be met at the lower level, then it is not only necessary, but imperative that higher levels of government intervene.

6. Economic Justice

The economy must serve people, not the other way around. All workers have a right to productive work, to decent and fair wages, and to safe working conditions. They also have a fundamental right to organize and join unions. People have a right to economic initiative and private property, but these rights have limits. No one is allowed to amass excessive wealth when others lack the basic necessities of life.

Catholic teaching opposes collectivist and statist economic approaches. But it also rejects the notion that a free market automatically produces justice. Distributive justice, for example, cannot be achieved by relying entirely on free market forces. Competition and free markets are useful elements of economic systems. However, markets must be kept within limits, because there are many needs and goods that cannot be satisfied by the market system. It is the task of the state and of all society to intervene and ensure that these needs are met. See selected quotations on markets, workers rights, and labor vs. capital

7. Stewardship of God's Creation

The goods of the earth are gifts from God, and they are intended by God for the benefit of everyone. There is a "social mortgage" that guides our use of the world's goods, and we have a responsibility to care for these goods as stewards and trustees, not as mere consumers and users. How we treat the environment is a measure of our stewardship, a sign of our respect for the Creator.

8. Promotion of Peace and Disarmament

Catholic teaching promotes peace as a positive, action-oriented concept. In the words of Pope John Paul II, "Peace is not just the absence of war. It involves mutual respect and confidence between peoples and nations. It involves collaboration and binding agreements.” There is a close relationship in Catholic teaching between peace and justice. Peace is the fruit of justice and is dependent upon right order among human beings.


9. Participation

All people have a right to participate in the economic, political, and cultural life of society. It is a fundamental demand of justice and a requirement for human dignity that all people be assured a minimum level of participation in the community. It is wrong for a person or a group to be excluded unfairly or to be unable to participate in society.

10. Global Solidarity and Development

We are one human family. Our responsibilities to each other cross national, racial, economic and ideological differences. We are called to work globally for justice. Authentic development must be full human development. It must respect and promote personal, social, economic, and political rights, including the rights of nations and of peoples It must avoid the extremists of underdevelopment on the one hand, and "superdevelopment" on the other. Accumulating material goods, and technical resources will be unsatisfactory and debasing if there is no respect for the moral, cultural, and spiritual dimensions of the person.



Just take "God" out of the equation, and the Catholic Social Teachings go hand in hand with the ideology of Socialism.

Thoughts?

Martin Blank
19th January 2010, 04:43
As the parson has ever gone hand in hand with the landlord, so has Clerical Socialism with Feudal Socialism.

Nothing is easier than to give Christian asceticism a Socialist tinge. Has not Christianity declaimed against private property, against marriage, against the State? Has it not preached in the place of these, charity and poverty, celibacy and mortification of the flesh, monastic life and Mother Church? Christian Socialism is but the holy water with which the priest consecrates the heart-burnings of the aristocrat.

(I find it easier to quote here than to reiterate what's been written.)

Die Neue Zeit
19th January 2010, 04:59
To compliment what Miles said, what about that 19th-century encyclical against "materialist" socialism? What about subsequent papal statements against Marxism?

JAH23
19th January 2010, 05:13
To compliment what Miles said, what about that 19th-century encyclical against "materialist" socialism? What about subsequent papal statements against Marxism?

Yes, the Catholic Church has, and is still against Socialism and Communism. However, I just think these teachings have a strange resemblance to leftist ideals, and I would not expect that from the Catholic Church.

Raúl Duke
19th January 2010, 07:31
Look into "liberation theology"
Although this theology was rejected I think by the Vatican.

ComradeRed22'91
19th January 2010, 07:48
i know that on Michael Moore's new movie, there were Catholic priests on it putting down capitalism, making no mention of Marxism. i think one of them even went as far as to use the word 'exploitative.' i sware, had i heard it on a sound clip, i would've thought the guy was a Communist. Also, i'm an athiest myself.

LOLseph Stalin
19th January 2010, 07:51
Shouldn't this be in the religion sub-forum? Also, the church has a heirarchy so that could be problematic...

Cooler Reds Will Prevail
19th January 2010, 09:32
The "option for the poor," is not an adversarial slogan that pits one group or class against another.


Catholic teaching opposes collectivist and statist economic approaches.

Not exactly socialist. I was personally very influenced by liberation theology, as I was Catholic-educated for some time, but those that subscribe to that ideology are the definite minority in the Catholic church, as it is deemed out of line with the religion's principles.

Die Neue Zeit
19th January 2010, 15:08
Really, just organize together and dump the Pope. Split like the Great Schism in the Middle Ages between East and West. :D

Rjevan
19th January 2010, 16:53
Shouldn't this be in the religion sub-forum?
You have a point there. Moved.

JAH23
19th January 2010, 20:33
Shouldn't this be in the religion sub-forum? Also, the church has a heirarchy so that could be problematic...

Yeah, the Church itself doesn't openly espouse Socialism, and pretty much all of its beliefs and ideologies are opposing, which is why these "Social Teachings" caught my attention. Without the God factor, these teachings are fundamentally Socialism. Would you not agree? They may not talk about class consciousness, or materialism, but I definitaley wouldn't expect the Evangelicals to support an "Option for the Poor and Vulnerable", or call for "Global Solidarity".

Raúl Duke
24th January 2010, 01:20
Without the God factor, these teachings are fundamentally Socialism. Would you not agree? They may not talk about class consciousness, or materialism, but I definitaley wouldn't expect the Evangelicals to support an "Option for the Poor and Vulnerable", or call for "Global Solidarity".

This reminds me about something...
I heard that in calvinist influenced protestant sects they used to think that if you aren't outwardly successful (financially speaking) than god's punishing you, you are doomed and hopeless, no one should help you since you are a lost cause.
This is the opposite of the charitable ideas of other sections of christianity.

ComradeMan
24th January 2010, 21:06
Proverb- He who wants to find God should stay far from the shul.
:D

Green Dragon
24th January 2010, 21:47
The Catholic Church had long been hostile toward capitalism. They rejected its emphasis on wealth accumulation being the goal.
For that reason, they also long opposed the materialism of socialism.
They often looked for a third way.

However, John Paul II basically ended that quest, when an encycle (about 1985) affirmed that capitalism was best way of preserving and defending the dignity of man.

Green Dragon
24th January 2010, 21:49
This reminds me about something...
I heard that in calvinist influenced protestant sects they used to think that if you aren't outwardly successful (financially speaking) than god's punishing you, you are doomed and hopeless, no one should help you since you are a lost cause.
This is the opposite of the charitable ideas of other sections of christianity.

Which explains why the center of commerce shifted from the Mediterranean to northern Europe, after the Protestant reformation. The Catholic world remained hostile to business and industry.

Kwisatz Haderach
24th January 2010, 22:48
Which explains why the center of commerce shifted from the Mediterranean to northern Europe, after the Protestant reformation. The Catholic world remained hostile to business and industry.
Really? And there I was thinking that it had something to do with those Northern European nations acquiring vast colonial empires...

mikelepore
25th January 2010, 05:12
What socialism? The Catholic "social teachings" document suggests helping the poor. But it doesn't say that the present economic system results in the appearance of poor people, so that they subsequently require help, and therefore it needs to be replaced by a new economic system that won't make people poor in the first place. That's what it would say if there were any socialist tendency in it.

ComradeMan
25th January 2010, 09:53
I don't think you can talk of socialism and capitalism in Medieval and Renaissance Europe, these were feudal and semi-feudal regimes. One of the main reasons for the prospering on Northern Europe was the brain drain into Northern Europe from Catholic Europe, eg. the likes of Spinoza, the scientific development that was relatively unchecked by Catholic blasphemy laws etc and the increased naval power of the English and the Dutch who managed to challenge the hegemony of Spain. The reasons are very complex and ought to be discussed further.
As for the Catholic church establishment itself, one of the main reasons they fell out with kings was for the refusal to pay "Peter's pence" taxes to Rome. The Vatican was probably even richer and more powerful then than it is now.

Pawn Power
31st January 2010, 19:59
There are most definantly some rad liberation theologists, many of them very much influenced by Marxism- clearly they don't put to much weight on Marx's denunciation of religion, though often taking a lot of his economic theory. A lot of the first liberation theologists were Latin American Catholic preists.

Chris Hedges (http://www.truthdig.com/chris_hedges) writes some pretty radical critiques of American power and capitalism, if you want one of the more well-known christian socialist.

The Red Apostle
25th February 2010, 03:49
What is so bad about "the God Factor"?

AerodynamicOwl
3rd March 2010, 11:23
To compliment what Miles said, what about that 19th-century encyclical against "materialist" socialism? What about subsequent papal statements against Marxism?

What about the bible belt conservative movement happening in America? While i agree with the OP about religions message in these respects, the bible as well as Christians views of god have been warped and twisted to fit the message of the day. ( 50 versions of the bible, plus the new movement to conservatize the bible)

Che a chara
5th March 2010, 19:22
James Connolly

Roman Catholicism and Socialism

(1908)

From The Harp, September, 1908.
Transcribed by The James Connolly Society (http://www.wageslave.org/jcs/) in 1997.
This is the title of a pamphlet by Patrick J. Cooney of Bridgeport, Conn., which we would like to see in the hands of all our readers, and especially those who are struggling towards the light out of the economic darkness of today. To Catholics who have been repelled from socialism by the blatant and rude atheism of some of its irresponsible advocates – and unfortunately the number of such Catholics is legion – this book will be as refreshing as an oasis in the desert to the tired and thirsty traveller.

The author is an active Catholic and at the same time a militant socialist, and in his presentation of our socialist doctrines he never wavers in his allegiance to either. Here and there indeed his loyalty to the Church seems to betray him into statements regarding her position which to our mind would hardly stand the test of modern criticism and historical research. But we confess that in that respect his attitude is a refreshing change from that of the crudely superficial thinkers (?) and scribblers who so commonly discredit the socialist ranks by their dogmatisms on that subject. If we had to choose between the perfervid Catholicity of our author and the blatant anti-Catholicism of the men who are so fond of repelling earnest Catholics by their assertion that the great conflict of the social revolution will be between the forces of the Catholic Church and those of socialism, then we should prefer the position of Comrade Cooney as containing the highest propagandist value, as well as being, if historical precedents count for anything, the most probable to last and stand the test of time. As a matter of fact the Catholic Church always accepts the established order, even if it has warred upon those who had striven to establish such order.

To use a homely adage the Church “does not put all her eggs in one basket,” and the man who imagines that in the supreme hour of the proletarian struggle for victory the Church will definitely line up with the forces of capitalism, and pledge her very existence as a Church upon the hazardous chance of the capitalists winning, simply does not understand the first thing about the policy of the Church in the social or political revolutions of the past. Just as in Ireland the Church denounced every Irish revolutionary movement in its day of activity, as in 1798, 1848 and 1867, and yet allowed its priests to deliver speeches in eulogy of the active spirits of those movements a generation afterwards, so in the future the Church, which has its hand close upon the pulse of human society, when it realises that the cause of capitalism is a lost cause it will find excuse enough to allow freedom of speech and expression to those lowly priests whose socialist declarations it will then use to cover and hide the absolute anti-socialism of the Roman Propaganda. When that day comes the Papal Encyclical against socialism will be conveniently forgotten by the Papal historians, and the socialist utterances, of the von Kettelers, the McGlynns, and McGradys will be heralded forth and the communistic utterances of the early fathers as proofs of Catholic sympathy with progressive ideas. Thus it has been in the past. Thus it will be, at least attempted, in the future. We are not concerned to champion or to deny the morality of such a cause in anticipation, we are simply attempting to read the lessons of the past into the future. And, we modestly submit, this forecast has infinitely more of probability in it than the dreams of those who tell us so glibly of a coming Armageddon between the forces of socialism and Catholicism. Such dreams are not the product of modern socialist philosophy, they are a survival from the obsolete philosophy of the days preceding the first French Revolution.

To the free-thinkers and rebels of those days – and the professional free-thinkers of today have not advanced much beyond that mental stage – God and the Church were nothing more than the schemes of a designing priesthood intent on enslaving and robbing the credulous masses. Religion was a systematised business of deception and trickery invented and perpetuated by men thoroughly aware of its falsehood and baseness, and consciously laying plans to maintain and spread it for their own selfish ends. Kings and rulers of all kinds were the creation of this crafty priesthood which used them to its own purposes. That we are not in the slightest degree mistating the ideas of the times we are criticising any student of the early freethought literature will readily concede. That many otherwise excellent comrades have brought such ideas over into the camp of socialism is also undeniable. But that they are also held by an even greater number of enemies of socialism is truer still. And it is in truth in the camp of the enemy such ideas belong, such doctrines are the legitimate children of the teachings of individualism, and their first progenitors both in England and France were also the first great exponents of the capitalist doctrines of free trade and free competition, free contract and free labour. Such conceptions of religion are entirely opposed to the modern doctrine that the intellectual conceptions of men are the product of their material conditions, and flow in the grooves channelled out by he economic environment.

In the light of this modem conception of the conditions of historical progress religion appears as the outcome of the efforts of mankind to interpret the workings of the forces of nature, and to translate its phenomena into the terms of a language which could be understood. The undeveloped mind cannot grasp an abstract proposition. Therefore that which the cultured man of the twentieth century would explain and understand as ‘a natural process,’ the mental vision of our forefathers could only see as the result of the good or ill will of some beneficent or evil spirit – some God or Devil.

Hence we had in Ireland in our Celtic legends a plentiful store of fairies, leprechauns and good and evil spirits, and every thing on land or sea, on wind or water that our fathers did not understand was readily attributed to the good or perverse genius of some member or members of this fairy host. In their turn the fairies were the descendants of the servants of the ‘Unknown God’ whom the Celt of old worshipped in his Druidic Groves. Anyone at all acquainted with the beliefs of the Irish peasant before the advent of the National School to ‘spoil’ him of his innocence is well aware chat his Catholicity was almost inextricably mingled with a belief in fairy lore and legend that testified that he was still in a transition state of mentality between belief in the spirits of Druidism and the angels of Catholicity.
He would have hotly repudiated such an insinuation. But to the seeing eye the proofs were palpable and undeniable, and this mental development of the Irish Celt towards a clearer conception of the universe, this progress, for it was a progress, from the conception of a world helplessly torn by the warring of spirits to the conception of a world ruled by a Creator holding a spirit world in subjection for a beneficent purpose, this development was paralleled throughout the earth by all the advanced races in their upward march to the conquest of truth. The point to be noted is this:

The different stages of development of the human mind in its attitude towards the forces of Nature created different priesthoods to interpret them, and the mental conceptions of mankind as interpreted by those priesthoods became, when systematised, Religion. Religions are simply expressions of the human conceptions of the natural world; these religions have created the priesthoods. Only he who stands upon the individualist conceptions of history can logically claim that priesthoods created religion. Modern historical science utterly rejects the idea as absurd.

Yet it is this utterly unhistorical idea, rejected by historical science as it is also rejected by the record of the countless thousands of priests of all religions who have cheerfully gone to martyrdom for their beliefs and martyrdom is incredible in a conscious imposter – it – it is this belief that is often brought in and made to do duty as a result of socialist thought by those who ought to know better. It is a matter for congratulation that Irish socialists are free of such excrescences on socialist belief.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1908/09/cathsoc.htm