Communists, do you "blame America" for the magnitude of the Haitain Disaster?

[Kingpin]

See thread

[Drace]

The un-natural disaster caused by the US in Haiti has further allowed the destruction to take greater penalties.

[ComradeMan]

I'm not sure that blaming actually helps anyone at the moment. Blame culture and mentality is unproductive. The US is part of the capitalist system of first world geopolitics and economics and although the US is a major player in that it is also true that she is only a part of a bigger scheme.

Capitalism, globablisation and so one keep so-called "third world" countries like Haiti poor, the poverty leads to lack of infrastructure and planning, i.e. building anti-seismic constructions etc, and then when a natural disaster strikes it turns into an apocalypse. This country is well and truly fucked. Whilst it is important to concentrate on the relief and rescue missions undertaken by the International community and UN at the moments what concerns me is what next? What about in a year's time once the media dust has settled? Who is going to rebuild this country?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Certainty capitalism tends makes natural disasters worse than the need to be because in many places laborers as well as the poor are economically confined to certain areas and generally the poorer you are, the more likely you are to live in undesirable environments, live in poorly constructed homes, have limited access to emergency services.

In LA, south central has always been a poor or working class area because this is the part of the city that is lowest and collects all the smog now and factory pollution earlier in the city's history. In New Orleans, as many of us have read, the areas hardest hit were poor areas which were built on low land and landfill.

But for the particular case of Haiti I think it is appropriate to lay a lot of the blame for the extreme poverty of the country (which in turn made the disaster so much worse) on the US government's historical and ongoing relationship with the Caribbean and Haiti in particular.

There have been food riots in Haiti over the last few years due to inflation and speculation on staple foods. People have been literally eating food with dirt-filler because of the food-crisis. The US wasn't altruistic then, what makes anyone think the US government is sincere about helping Haitians now? It's very telling that Obama promised an "investment" to help Haiti, not relief. The US rulers see a disater like this and some think... Cha-ching!

I wish the anti-war movement was more organized and independent and could pressure the government to give aid with no strings attached and no military policing.

[RGacky3]

No I blame an earthquake, wipe that smirk off your face.

[Havet]

I blame the corrupt Haitain government leaders.

You know what was the first thing he said when the earthquake happened?

He did not address "his people", but addressed some californian tv show and said that two of his houses had disappeared.

It's pretty sad to see Haiti, the first place on the world where african slaves revolted against their condition, being reduced to this.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I blame the corrupt Haitain government leaders.Yes, but what's the history behind the rulers of Haiti?

Beginning in the 70s and 80s, as with a lot of countries in the US's influence at that time, the US backed leaders were told to take imports of staple crops from the US. This was part of a strategy by the US rulers to try and make up for the 70s economic crisis by imposing economic measures (that would benefit US-based firms) on the countries the US was backing and giving cold-war military aid to. The US-subsidized crops destroyed a lot of the native small farmer in Haiti and led to people moving to overcrowded urban areas to look for work.

In the 90s when Clinton sent the military, part of the deal with keeping Aristide in power was increasing neo-liberal measures in Haiti. When people rebelled against these new programs and Aristide began to demand an end to the neo-liberal plan and billions of dollars in aid, the US enacted an embargo, on probably the poorest country in the hemisphere, and then backed the coup earlier this decade, Arisiede's deportation, and UN troop occupation.

So while it is correct to blame the corrupt government in Haiti, that government would not be in power, the neo-liberal policies that have destroyed agriculture and prevented decent building codes and regulations would not be in place, and the people of Haiti might have a better chance at protecting themselves from disasters if not for US imperialism and US foreign policy towards the country - and many other countries in the Caribbean and the rest of Latin America.

[Havet]

Yes, but what's the history behind the rulers of Haiti?

Beginning in the 70s and 80s, as with a lot of countries in the US's influence at that time, the US backed leaders were told to take imports of staple crops from the US. This was part of a strategy by the US rulers to try and make up for the 70s economic crisis by imposing economic measures (that would benefit US-based firms) on the countries the US was backing and giving cold-war military aid to. The US-subsidized crops destroyed a lot of the native small farmer in Haiti and led to people moving to overcrowded urban areas to look for work.

In the 90s when Clinton sent the military, part of the deal with keeping Aristide in power was increasing neo-liberal measures in Haiti. When people rebelled against these new programs and Aristide began to demand an end to the neo-liberal plan and billions of dollars in aid, the US enacted an embargo, on probably the poorest country in the hemisphere, and then backed the coup earlier this decade, Arisiede's deportation, and UN troop occupation.

So while it is correct to blame the corrupt government in Haiti, that government would not be in power, the neo-liberal policies that have destroyed agriculture and prevented decent building codes and regulations would not be in place, and the people of Haiti might have a better chance at protecting themselves from disasters if not for US imperialism and US foreign policy towards the country - and many other countries in the Caribbean and the rest of Latin America.

Oh certainly, I agree. No status quo country would ever let a bunch of slaves succeed in building their own independent country - it could look tempting to other citizens of other countries.

But as far as our understanding of human action goes, haitian leaders had a choice between being corrupt or not. And they chose to be corrupt.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Oh certainly, I agree. No status quo country would ever let a bunch of slaves succeed in building their own independent country - it could look tempting to other citizens of other countries.

But as far as our understanding of human action goes, haitian leaders had a choice between being corrupt or not. And they chose to be corrupt.Well they chose not to end up like Aristide by choosing to play along with international (US/UN) plans for their economy which included deregulation and so on.

[Bud Struggle]

No I blame an earthquake, wipe that smirk off your face.

Exactly.

You of course can politicize anything, but one does tend to lose credibility after a point.

[Jimmie Higgins]

You of course can politicize anything, but one does tend to lose credibility after a point.You're talking about the US/UN "relief" plans right? I mean it's the US that is preventing aid from other countries from coming in, it's the US that's sending Bush and Clinton, it's the US that will use its relief "investment" to further push neo-liberal policies on the country. I would love it if the US government's response to this crisis was de-politicized, unfortunately it is not and their plans will only lead to more of the same (death, starvation, undemocratic measures) for that country.

[Bud Struggle]

You're talking about the US/UN "relief" plans right? I mean it's the US that is preventing aid from other countries from coming in, it's the US that's sending Bush and Clinton, it's the US that will use its relief "investment" to further push neo-liberal policies on the country. I would love it if the US government's response to this crisis was de-politicized, unfortunately it is not and their plans will only lead to more of the same (death, starvation, undemocratic measures) for that country.

Really, besides for a few Communist "true believers" no one--and I mean no one really believes that the US's response to this disaster is to make it a money making affair.

Granted there are some that will prosper from it (there always are)--but that is not the aim or the objective of American efforts in Haiti. This is no different than the Indian Ocean tsunami--where the US gave plenty of aid with no monetary gain.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Aside from a few communist and other leftists, no one believed that Obama was really going to follow his predecessor's policies as closely as he has, no one believed that WMDs weren't the US's reason for invading Iraq. Unfortunately we tend to be right about these things... unfortunate because we aren't organized or large enough to properly respond and demand justice and real aid for Haitians suffering there or people here suffering from the economic crisis here.

Direct money making may not be their overall primary goal (keeping the local elites in control of the country and winning a tighter grip on the country is more like it), but do you seriously believe that with the history of the US in Haiti that they are just doing all this out of kindness? The US put an embargo on the country for not following the neo-liberal agenda dictated to them by Bill Clinton, the US has in all instances supported the elites in the country against the needs of people there.

Imagine China doing the same things after an earthquake in Tibet - sending 9,000 troops to police the area and a few hundred doctors a few days later, promising a loan to the country rather than emergency relief funds without strings - would you trust the kind of aid they are giving out? Would it be politicizing the tragedy to suggest that giving China the benefit of the doubt to give sincere aid to Tibet may be unwise?

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

See thread

Yes I frequently blame foreign countries for the unfortunate events in the world. I went round culling German Shepards after an old woman was hit by a car round my way.

[Havet]

Yes I frequently blame foreign countries for the unfortunate events in the world. I went round culling German Shepards after an old woman was hit by a car round my way.

Was it a BMW that hit the old woman?

[Dimentio]

See thread

No. But global capitalism as well as the own internal oligarchic system in Haiti are partially to blame. One of the reasons why Haiti is so poor is due to the prolonged reign of the Duvalier Dynasty which embezzled the resources of the Island, the taxes and all foreign support (which they received for being anti-communist).

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Was it a BMW that hit the old woman?

No my wheel of bigotry just happened to choose the huns that day.

[mykittyhasaboner]

This is no different than the Indian Ocean tsunami--where the US gave plenty of aid with no monetary gain. Yeah sure it is. Oh wait, those countries haven't been deliberately impoverished by the US military and economic interests throughout the 20th century (well at least not to the same extent), which means the damage caused isn't really the US government's fault--except in Haiti it absolutely is.

The kind of shit that you post on here amazes me.

Do you seriously think this many people would have died if the infrastructure or their own relief capabilities was at least a bit better in Haiti? I don't. The only blame here lies with imperialism.

[Green Dragon]

[
QUOTE=Jimmie Higgins;1652599]Certainty capitalism tends makes natural disasters worse than the need to be because in many places laborers as well as the poor are economically confined to certain areas

It would seem to me that laborers in a socialist cimmunity would have to live somewhere also, maybe in those "certain areas." After all, land is not magically created as a result of a socialist victory.



and generally the poorer you are, the more likely you are to live in undesirable environments, live in poorly constructed homes, have limited access to emergency services.


Yes. The objective ought to be to create wealth.



In LA, south central has always been a poor or working class area because this is the part of the city that is lowest and collects all the smog now and factory pollution earlier in the city's history. In New Orleans, as many of us have read, the areas hardest hit were poor areas which were built on low land and landfill.


It would be curious to see the proofs which would show that smog would NOT settle in low lying areas after a socialist victory, or why the socialist regime would choose to fill unproductive land and then choose not to use it.



But for the particular case of Haiti I think it is appropriate to lay a lot of the blame for the extreme poverty of the country (which in turn made the disaster so much worse) on the US government's historical and ongoing relationship with the Caribbean and Haiti in particular.


The Haitian economy was destroyed after the embargos protesting the overthrow of Aristide (that and the invention of machines to produce baseballs). It never recovered.

[Robert]

U.S. troops are on the ground now. It would be in the best interests of the Haitian people that they get back on their ships and go home now, correct?

[Dean]

Exactly.

You of course can politicize anything, but one does tend to lose credibility after a point.

We're not the ones politicizing it - the neoliberals are: http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/517494/

[mykittyhasaboner]

U.S. troops are on the ground now. It would be in the best interests of the Haitian people that they get back on their ships and go home now, correct?


Yes, correct. Someone else posted this, though not visible for OI'ers.


US General Ken Keen, who commands the military task force in Haiti, said US troops would “be here as long as needed.” He confirmed there were roughly 4,200 US troops in Haiti, largely in cutters patrolling offshore, and that by today there would be 12,000 US troops in the country. On Saturday, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton visited Port-au-Prince at the invitation of Haitian President René Préval. She argued for the imposition of an emergency decree in Haiti, allowing for the imposition of curfews and martial-law conditions by US forces. Clinton explained: “The decree would give the government an enormous amount of authority, which in practice they would delegate to us.”
US officials are citing contradictory reports of looting in Haiti to justify further US troop deployments. Keen told ABC, “having a safe and secure environment is going to be very important. ... We have had incidents of violence that impede our ability to support the government of Haiti and answer the challenges that this country faces as they’re suffering a tragedy of epic proportions.
...

The US military has taken control of Port-au-Prince airport as a key hub of its military buildup, blocking access by humanitarian flights. Humanitarian flights from France, Brazil, and Italy were refused permission to land, and the Red Cross reported one of its planes was diverted to Santo Domingo, the capital of the neighboring Dominican Republic.
France’s ambassador to Haiti, Didier le Bret, said France’s foreign minister Bernard Kouchner had lodged a protest with the US State Department after the US blocked a French flight carrying an emergency field hospital. He added that Port-au-Prince airport was “not an airport for the international community. It’s an annex of Washington. ... We were told it was an extreme emergency, there was need for a field hospital. We might be able to make a difference and save lives.”
...

At Port-au-Prince’s Municipal Nursing Home, barely one mile from the US-controlled airport, 85 elderly Haitians are starving and being attacked by rats. One man, Joseph Julien, has already died. Officials have cited fights over food at a nearby soccer stadium to justify not sending them supplies, despite their proximity to the airport. Nursing home administrator Jean Emmanuel told the Associated Press: “I’m pleading for everyone to understand that there’s a truce right now, the streets are free, so you can come through to help us.”
...

Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano said: “There may be an impulse to leave the island to come here. You will not qualify for TPS [Temporary Protected] status.” This would allow the US to deport them upon arrival. Officials in Miami, a city with a large Haitian immigrant population, are watching for signs of a mass flght from Haiti to the US.
...

The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) announced that it would move 400 detainees from the Krome detention facility to an undisclosed location, to free up space in case any Haitians manage to reach US shores.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/ja...hait-j18.shtml (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/jan2010/hait-j18.shtml)

[Robert]

Thanks, guys, for citing the always reliable "World Socialist Website" for some good hard news on Haiti.

I think this is the most objective and factual portion of the piece:


Amid the humanitarian tragedy following the January 12 earthquake in Haiti, Washington has concentrated on establishing indefinite military control of the country. Fearing mass protests and riots by desperate Haitians against inadequate rescue efforts, US logistical efforts are focused on massing tens of thousands of troops for use against the population.



Focussed??? It sounds like the Rape of Nanjing by the Japanese in 1937.



Not even the Cuban government (http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2010/01/15/world/worldwatch/entry6099838.shtml) is as cynical as you guys.

[Richard Nixon]

Here's some speculation if American had annexed Haiti sometime in the 19th Century it would be more like Puerto Rico by now which is quite wealthy compared to the rest of the Caribbean.

[Valeofruin]

I blame France...

Haiti is still owed 22 billion dollars, in DEVELOPMENTAL assistance.. if the US wants to pick up the tab that is fine.

[Hiero]

Here's some speculation if American had annexed Haiti sometime in the 19th Century it would be more like Puerto Rico by now which is quite wealthy compared to the rest of the Caribbean.
Or maybe if Cuba/USSR had...

[Bud Struggle]

We're not the ones politicizing it - the neoliberals are: http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/517494/

I would certainly agree to this (from the article):


So what can activists do in addition to donating to a charity? One long-term objective is to get the IMF to forgive all $265 million of Haiti's debt (that's the $165 million outstanding, plus the $100 million issued this week). In the short term, Haiti's IMF loans could be restructured to come from the IMF's rapid credit facility, which doesn't impose conditions like keeping wages and inflation down.

And:

Thanks, guys, for citing the always reliable "World Socialist Website" for some good hard news on Haiti.

That and the "Ted Kaczynski Newsletter" is where I get my info from!:thumbup1:


Aside from a few communist and other leftists, no one believed that Obama was really going to follow his predecessor's policies as closely as he has, Are you kidding? That's the only reason I voted for him. ALL US Presidents are the same.


no one believed that WMDs weren't the US's reason for invading Iraq. Like it was only the Commies that thought that.


Unfortunately we tend to be right about these things... unfortunate because we aren't organized or large enough to properly respond and demand justice and real aid for Haitians suffering there or people here suffering from the economic crisis here. You aren't large or organized because of your News of the World approach to things. No body takes the Communist cause seriously because for the most part you aren't serious. Loosen up a bit and you might be all right.


Direct money making may not be their overall primary goal (keeping the local elites in control of the country and winning a tighter grip on the country is more like it), but do you seriously believe that with the history of the US in Haiti that they are just doing all this out of kindness? Yes, because beyond all of the "people-only-do-things-for-economic-reasons" claptrap--Americans are kind and good people.


The US put an embargo on the country for not following the neo-liberal agenda dictated to them by Bill Clinton, the US has in all instances supported the elites in the country against the needs of people there. The Haitains elected a neo-godlike poseur as President. The guy was crazy.


Imagine China doing the same things after an earthquake in Tibet - sending 9,000 troops to police the area and a few hundred doctors a few days later, promising a loan to the country rather than emergency relief funds without strings - would you trust the kind of aid they are giving out? Would it be politicizing the tragedy to suggest that giving China the benefit of the doubt to give sincere aid to Tibet may be unwise? The troops will save a lot more lives than they will hurt. The Haitains have no complaints. The Haitain community Diaspora around the world has no complaint--why should you?

[RGacky3]

Like it was only the Commies that thought that.

No it was a large chunk of the country but the idea that they invaded for oil was painted by the media as a far left idea, even though for a lot of the country it was just common sense.


Yes, because beyond all of the "people-only-do-things-for-economic-reasons" claptrap--Americans are kind and good people.

The thing is your both right, most AMericans helping out JUST want to help out, altruistically, and I'm willing to believe (for now) that even the US government is being altruistic, however, if history repeats itself (and it usually does, people with a lot of power will try and profit from this, make no doubt about that, and will do so at the hatians expense.

That being said, its a mistake to politizice this, even if neo-liberals and "conservatives" do, that does'nt mean lefitsts need to, the important thing now is aid.

[Bud Struggle]

^^^I agree with you there Gack.

Now, how about this for bad taste.

http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2010/01/18/2010-01-18_luxury_cruise_ships_escort_vacationers_to_haiti _despite_earthquake_devastation.html

[#FF0000]

Communists: "hey guys this whole thing in Haiti is sort of a political issue and we really shouldn't forget that"

You guys: "When are going to stop politicizing things? Geez"

*U.S. Government uses the entire situation to push neo-liberal agenda in Haiti for fun and profit and empire, nobody notices or bothers to notice becuase that would be politicizing the issue*

Seems to be the gist of what's going on here.

The worst part is that it looks like we're being criticized for politicizing the issue for pointing out that there are people in the U.S. government that are really pushing to exploit the whole thing for everything they can. That's so frustrating.

[human strike]

If by America you mean dozens of consecutive American governments and the decades of exploitation by US owned corporations, then yes, yes I do.

[lebeR]

.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Thanks, guys, for citing the always reliable "World Socialist Website" for some good hard news on Haiti.

http://news.antiwar.com/2010/01/18/aid-groups-nations-complain-us-military-blocking-haiti-aid/


A growing war of words is emerging tonight as the US military, ostensibly dispatched to Haiti to help with humanitarian efforts in the wake of a disastrous earthquake, is being accused to blocking aid from entering the nation as well as flights for non-American citizens from leaving.


http://news.antiwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/haiti.jpg“This is about helping Haiti, not about occupying Haiti (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/haiti/7020908/US-accused-of-occupying-Haiti-as-troops-flood-in.html),” cautioned one French minister, who slammed US troops that seized Haiti’s only airport and have since been directing traffic as it suits them.


Doctors Without Borders, one of the world’s most high profile aid groups and the recipients of several major donations (http://www.usmagazine.com/celebritynews/news/brad-pitt-angelina-jolie-donate-to-doctors-without-borders-for-haiti-relief-1970241) for Haitian relief efforts, complained that the US military actually blocked several flights carrying badly needed medical supplies (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mona-gable/doctors-without-borders-i_b_427470.html), including inflatable emergency hospitals, ordering them to divert to the Dominican Republic instead.


US military spokesman for Haiti operations Captain John Kirby shrugged off the complaints, citing “security concerns (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703626604575011611504785170.html?m od=WSJ_latestheadlines).” Another official blamed “a crowded parking lot (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/01/18/military-blames-crowded-parking-lot-diverted-planes-haiti-airport/).” Still other commanders promised that the military would change its practices so that humanitarian aid was given a higher priority, sparking inevitable questions about why this wasn’t the case in the first place.


Despite efforts to get some clarification from Defense Secretary Robert Gates about the scope of the operation, he would speak only in vague terms. Troops in the country insisted they “aren’t here to fight (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/18/haiti-earthquake-us-soldiers-aid),” but their actions on the ground suggest that even in a purely humanitarian operation the US is very comfortable with the role of occupier, and the perpetual war mentality is extending to control over the tiny airport, with disastrous consequences.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/24/world/americas/24haiti.html


An array of human rights groups has strongly criticized the United States government, saying it withheld money meant to provide clean drinking water to Haiti (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/haiti/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) as leverage for political change in the country.


The activists, in a report released Monday, called the delay of $54 million in international loans to the Haitian government “one of the most egregious examples of malfeasance by the United States in recent years.”


The loans from the Inter-American Development Bank were intended to revamp the water and sanitation systems in Les Cayes and Port-de-Paix, two Haitian towns in dire need of the money to improve their infrastructure. Nearly 70 percent of Haitians lack regular and direct access to potable water, experts say. The lack of clean water contributes to intestinal parasites and amoebic dysentery.


The development bank, over which the United States Treasury Department (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/t/treasury_department/index.html?inline=nyt-org) holds significant influence, approved the loans in 1998. Although payments began to be made several years later, the water projects have yet to be started, the report said, “largely the result of aggressive attempts by the U.S. government to block the disbursement of these loans.”
Haiti’s own political turmoil and financial difficulties also contributed to the delays, the report acknowledged.


The report was prepared by the Center for Human Rights and Global Justice at the New York University (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/n/new_york_university/index.html?inline=nyt-org) School of Law; Partners in Health, a Boston-based health care provider that does work in Haiti and other impoverished countries; and the Robert F. Kennedy (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/k/robert_francis_kennedy/index.html?inline=nyt-per) Memorial Center for Human Rights.

The groups went to court to gain access to internal government correspondence saying why the United States sought to prevent the approved loans from reaching Haiti in the years after their approval. The Inter-American Development Bank’s charter states that the bank should not interfere in the political affairs of member countries.



But the delays in disbursing the loans were linked by American officials to their concerns about the administration of Jean-Bertrand Aristide (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/a/jeanbertrand_aristide/index.html?inline=nyt-per), whose first presidency was overthrown by a military coup in 1991 and whose return to power in 2001 was cut short three years later with the encouragement of the Bush administration.


Dean Curran, who was the American ambassador to Haiti at the time, said publicly in 2001, “There now are a certain number of loans of the Inter-American Development Bank that are not yet disbursed with the objective of trying to request of the protagonists of the current situation, in the current political crisis, to reach a compromise.”


A top Treasury Department official then sent an e-mail message to staff members that called it a “major screw-up” for the ambassador to explicitly acknowledge a connection between the holdup in development loans and American political concerns in Haiti.


A Treasury Department spokeswoman, Brookly McLaughlin, said on Friday that she had not yet seen a copy of the report but that the United States government and other international agencies had played a major financial role in the development of Haiti.

Is this not objective or factual enough for you Robert?

[Kingpin]

So...suppose that due to the weakened state there was a workers revolution.

What the hell could they do?

People probably won't invest in the island anymore, and the infrastructure is down completely.

How would they be able to develop and re-construct with a planned workers economy if there is no capital there?

[Robert]

A growing war of words is emerging tonight as the US military, ostensibly dispatched to Haiti to help with humanitarian efforts

Sorry to have put you to work, really, but I quit reading when I came to
"ostensibly." That is cynical propaganda, not news.

[Sendo]

You aren't large or organized because of your News of the World approach to things. No body takes the Communist cause seriously because for the most part you aren't serious. Loosen up a bit and you might be all right.


We aren't serious enough, and therefore....must loosen up? Do you know the meaning of these words?



Yes, because beyond all of the "people-only-do-things-for-economic-reasons" claptrap--Americans are kind and good people.

Yes, AMERICANS can be good, but they are not the same as the US Government.



Yes, because beyond all of the "people-only-do-things-for-economic-reasons" claptrap--Americans are kind and good people.

The Haitains elected a neo-godlike poseur as President. The guy was crazy.


Nice racism. Americans are kind and good people (whose government NEVER interferes with Haitian elections) and the Haitians are idiots who elected the wrong guy.



The troops will save a lot more lives than they will hurt. The Haitains have no complaints. The Haitain community Diaspora around the world has no complaint--why should you?

YES THEY DO HAVE COMPLAINTS. Watch some independent journalists. Talk to doctors who want the planes to be dropping drugs and supplies and food and NOT M16-wielding people who don't speak Creole nor French.

And god damn it! It's spelled "Haitians", not "Haitains". The latter sounds like some kind of banana.

[Kingpin]

So...suppose that due to the weakened state there was a workers revolution.

What the hell could they do?

People probably won't invest in the island anymore, and the infrastructure is down completely.

How would they be able to develop and re-construct with a planned workers economy if there is no capital there?

Aren't you saying that you need the capital of the capitalists in order to re-construct Haiti?

[Robert]

Nice racism.You need to apologize for that reckless remark.


But back to Haiti, here's the real cause (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/01/21/chavez_us_weapon_test_caused_haiti_earthquake.html ) of the earthquake. Thanks to President Chavez for this revelation.

[Kingpin]

Sorry for bringing this up again but I really want an answer. Not to mock anyone but to learn the point of view.

So...suppose that due to the weakened state there was a workers revolution.

What the hell could they do?

People probably won't invest in the island anymore, and the infrastructure is down completely.

How would they be able to develop and re-construct with a planned workers economy if there is no capital there?


In a few sentences how can you justify Haitian workers seizing control of the state and the means of production on the island that foreigners invested in?

[Robert]

How would they be able to develop and re-construct with a planned workers economy if there is no capital there?

Somebody want to answer the man?

King, let me hazard a guess that the textbook answer will be something like "this is why we need worldwide revolution."

Even in that unlikely event, I still don't see how worker control of every other country in the world translates necessarily into new infrastructure in Haiti.

Good post. Yours I mean.:lol:

[#FF0000]

Sorry for bringing this up again but I really want an answer. Not to mock anyone but to learn the point of view.

So...suppose that due to the weakened state there was a workers revolution.

What the hell could they do?

People probably won't invest in the island anymore, and the infrastructure is down completely.

How would they be able to develop and re-construct with a planned workers economy if there is no capital there?


In a few sentences how can you justify Haitian workers seizing control of the state and the means of production on the island that foreigners invested in?

I'm sure a number of countries would continue to send aid and help them rebuild their infrastructure. Venezuela and Cuba in particular, but I woulndn't be surprised if other countries like maybe Russia or China would offer support as well, just to get a leg up on the U.S.

It would still be far from easy.

But I don't really see what the relevance of this question is. We aren't calling for the Haitian working class to start a revolution. We're saying that the U.S. and other countries ought to keep their hands off Haitian government and policy--something they've insisted on doing for the past 50 years at least.

[Bud Struggle]

But I don't really see what the relevance of this question is. We aren't calling for the Haitian working class to start a revolution. We're saying that the U.S. and other countries ought to keep their hands off Haitian government and policy--something they've insisted on doing for the past 50 years at least.

At this point America now "owns" Haiti. I think they will do a good job of building up Haiti into a good business model.

[#FF0000]

At this point America now "owns" Haiti. I think they will do a good job of building up Haiti into a good business model.

You don't really need to do much thinking on this one though since the U.S. has p. much "owned" Haiti since the Gov't installed Papa Doc. Since then I don't think the Haitian state has been very effective at doing anything but butchering and brutalizing its citizens.

[Bud Struggle]

You don't really need to do much thinking on this one though since the U.S. has p. much "owned" Haiti since the Gov't installed Papa Doc. Since then I don't think the Haitian state has been very effective at doing anything but butchering and brutalizing its citizens.

Hey, Papa Doc put in 150,000 new manufacturing jobs. Since his "departure" 90% of the jobs have left Haiti.

Politics and economics aren't always the same. It's guys like you that defeat Marx every time.

[#FF0000]

Hey, Papa Doc put in 150,000 new manufacturing jobs. Since his "departure" 90% of the jobs have left Haiti.

Politics and economics aren't always the same.

And hundreds of thousands of Haitians were killed by that very regime.

Meanwhile literacy, access to healthcare, and the likelihood of NOT being butchered by the Haitian military all increased under Haiti's first elected president, Aristide, who was promptly shipped out of the country by the CIA.

Jobs and quality of life aren't always the same.

[Bud Struggle]

And hundreds of thousands of Haitians were killed by that very regime.

Meanwhile literacy, access to healthcare, and the likelihood of NOT being butchered by the Haitian military all increased under Haiti's first elected president, Aristide, who was promptly shipped out of the country by the CIA.

Jobs and general welfare and prosperity aren't always the same.

I agree. There's Great Nation politics going on here. Same as Russia and Georgia.

Let Haiti alone and it will begin to do just fine. We have a blank slate now.

[#FF0000]

I agree. There's Great Nation politics going on here. Same as Russia and Georgia.

Let Haiti alone and it will begin to do just fine. We have a blank slate now.

Wait you mean we agree that Haiti should be given aid but otherwise be let alone to decide its own political and economic policy?

Do you do this on purpose, Bud?

[Bud Struggle]

Wait you mean we agree that Haiti should be given aid but otherwise be let alone to decide its own political and economic policy?

Do you do this on purpose, Bud?

I say give ithem aid and then let it alone to decide it's future.

That's all.

But my advise would be for Haiti to develope a strong middle class of well paid workers and small businessmen.

You want to advise soviets---be my guest.

[Edit] Show me something that works that's better the the present plan--and I'm on board with it.

[Kingpin]

Okay so today after school at a sports pub people were talking about Haiti.

Someone said that Haiti should follow the USA model of freedom and free trade to get back on track and stop following the primitive ways of blaming others for their problems.

I then pointed out the multiple US occupations on the island,

the guy said that was in the past, and that America has done more good in Haiti and in the world than all other countries put together, and that we had to fight communism.

I responded by saying that the effects of imperialism are still felt in Haiti today, through the corruption, suppressions, poor infrastructure, etc. and that Haiti was never communist.

Then he said "Are you a hippie?" Stop talking to me you communist. Go look for a handout.

I said I'm not a communist. I like to study conflicts between different groups and interests and how they manifest in the real world.

Then he said I am definitely a communist then he swung one punch at me, saying how his relatives fought "my inferior kind" for freedom(idk if he was talking about my talking points or my mixed ethnic background?). I dodged the punch and security came after him. I left, seeing I was not wanted there.

Is this the kind of stuff that communists have to go through daily?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Is this the kind of stuff that communists have to go through daily?No. Was the other person drunk at the time? The only abuse I ocassionally get is verbal and it's usually people mumbling a dismissive insult as they walk away.

[#FF0000]

Okay so today after school at a sports pub people were talking about Haiti.

Someone said that Haiti should follow the USA model of freedom and free trade to get back on track and stop following the primitive ways of blaming others for their problems.

I then pointed out the multiple US occupations on the island,

the guy said that was in the past, and that America has done more good in Haiti and in the world than all other countries put together, and that we had to fight communism.

I responded by saying that the effects of imperialism are still felt in Haiti today, through the corruption, suppressions, poor infrastructure, etc. and that Haiti was never communist.

Then he said "Are you a hippie?" Stop talking to me you communist. Go look for a handout.

I said I'm not a communist. I like to study conflicts between different groups and interests and how they manifest in the real world.

Then he said I am definitely a communist then he swung one punch at me, saying how his relatives fought "my inferior kind" for freedom(idk if he was talking about my talking points or my mixed ethnic background?). I dodged the punch and security came after him. I left, seeing I was not wanted there.

Is this the kind of stuff that communists have to go through daily?

No not really. Usually we just get tepid "it's nice on paper but..." responses. But it depends on where you are I suppose. I imagine anarchists and socialists in Russia get some trouble from the neo-nazi gangs in the area. Meanwhile here in he U.S. the police are harassing leftists a lot. Anarchists in particular.

And I'm pretty sure having communist affiliations disqualifies me from taking a teaching job in my state.

But beyond that sort of thing, communists aren't really bothered day-to-day by regular folks on the day-to-day

[Black Sheep]

I blame the tectonic plates.

[Bud Struggle]

And I'm pretty sure having communist affiliations disqualifies me from taking a teaching job in my state.


If that's true then it's wrong. Political affiliation just like religious affiliation should have no bearing on your ability to get a job.

[Jimmie Higgins]

And I'm pretty sure having communist affiliations disqualifies me from taking a teaching job in my state.I had to check a "loyalty oath" box with my paperwork when I worked in the Los Angeles school district - I wasn't even a teacher, I was just working at the school in the office.

On the last day I told all the kids that the US government should be overthrown, that they should avoid all drugs that are not LSD/DMT/2CB, and have at least one homosexual relationship once they are old enough to start dating. It's the sound advice I wish I had been given at my elementary school graduation. Then, as I left the stage I burned an American flag, chanted "off the pigs" half a dozen times, grabbed the principle's hairpiece and drove off into the sunset in a SUV I stole from the president of the PTA.:laugh:

The school wrote me a very nice letter of recommendation despite the warning to potential future employers that I had problems with authority.

[RGacky3]

If that's true then it's wrong. Political affiliation just like religious affiliation should have no bearing on your ability to get a job.

That is true in theory, but put "worked as an IWW organizer" on your resume and see how many companies will contact you :P.

[Jimmie Higgins]

That is true in theory, but put "worked as an IWW organizer" on your resume and see how many companies will contact you :P.

"...it says here on your resume that in your last job you worked as a union salt..."

[#FF0000]

If that's true then it's wrong. Political affiliation just like religious affiliation should have no bearing on your ability to get a job.

It's an old holdover from the McCarthy era. Funny, too, since I was just talking to someone in New Zealand and he told me all about big time marxist activist who is also a high school teacher.

Worlds apart, worlds apart.

[Robert]

The following is from a paper by one Martha M. McCarthy is Chancellor Professor in the School of Education, Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana. Spring, 2009


Membership in Political Parties and Organizations

In the past, states attempted to protect public schools from treason-
able acts by prohibiting or limiting teachers’ affiliations with subversive
organizations. However, since the mid-1960s, the Supreme Court has
firmly established that membership in a subversive organization such as
the Communist Party, without intent to further the group’s unlawful
aims, cannot be used to bar an individual from public school employ-
ment.1The dismissal of a public educator will not be upheld if the moti-
vating factor behind the decision is the educator’s exercise of
associational rights. Teachers can, however, be required to affirm that
they will fulfill their job responsibilities and that they support the U.S.
Constitution and their respective state constitutions.
Laws need not prohibit political affiliations to impair the free exercise
of First Amendment rights: those that inhibit such exercise will also be
invalidated if their provisions advance no compelling governmental inter-
est. To illustrate, the Supreme Court struck down Arkansas’ requirement
that teachers list annually every organization they had joined or supported
during the prior five years.2Similarly, the Fifth Circuit invalidated a Texas
statute that allowed county judges to require certain organizations to dis-
close their membership lists if they engaged in activities that could disrupt
public schools.3The court found the law overly broad because it exposed
those group members who were not involved in the disruptive activities.

www.pilambda.org/horizons/v87-3/legal.pdf (http://www.pilambda.org/horizons/v87-3/legal.pdf)

You guys need to drop this persecution complex of yours. If you can't get a job in the public sector because you are a commie, file suit. As the above article shows, you will win. (So how about a little respect for our courts?) I wish the reverse could be said of a lawsuit a capitalist might file to protect his freedom of thought and association under any communist regime you might envision.

[#FF0000]

I don't think anyone really had a persecution complex. Especially since what was basically said was: "Commies in the U.S. don't have it too bad, we just have to lie when we want to teach in some states".

Anarchists are the ones that really have it bad nowadays I think. Lots of anarchists getting harassed or arrested (http://libcom.org/news/academic-freedom-issues-terrorist-court-case-27122009) for either a bogus reason or no reason at all.

Plus I don't think it's really fair to say that capitalist society is nice to communists because they aren't being openly targeted right now.

[Jimmie Higgins]

The following is from a paper by one Martha M. McCarthy is Chancellor Professor in the School of Education, Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana. Spring, 2009

www.pilambda.org/horizons/v87-3/legal.pdf (http://www.pilambda.org/horizons/v87-3/legal.pdf)

You guys need to drop this persecution complex of yours. If you can't get a job in the public sector because you are a commie, file suit. As the above article shows, you will win. (So how about a little respect for our courts?) I wish the reverse could be said of a lawsuit a capitalist might file to protect his freedom of thought and association under any communist regime you might envision.

It exists, but for the most part it is an anachronistic throwback and a joke. I signed it and lied in doing so - so I suppose if I were organizing protests at my worksite and they found out I was a member of a radical organization, they could use it as an excuse to fire me.

Fine, still don't believe us, read up:

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/may/02/local/me-oath2


The loyalty oath was added to the state Constitution by voters in 1952 to root out communists in public jobs. Now, 16 years after the collapse of the Soviet Union, its main effect is to weed out religious believers, particularly Quakers and Jehovah's Witnesses.

[Dr Mindbender]

See thread

i dont think America is to blame for the magnitude of the disaster, but i do think they're taking advantage of the disaster in the most cynical way possible by establishing their imperial claws there.

As the destruction of the earthquake becomes a memory, they (or rather their big business paymasters) will screw over local industries, the local ecology and morally hold the haitian people to ransom when they kick back about it.