Translation of an antigerman text [Archive]

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L.J.Solidarity

18th January 2010, 02:22

In order to enable those who don't speak German to see what the notorious antideutsche write like, I tried to translate a text written by the Linksjugend ‘solid state leadership in Saxony (relatively moderate antigermans) as part of a discussion within Linksjugend 'solid wether SAV (CWI in Germany) members should be expelled or not. In their attempt to engage in trotbashing, they also explain the core of their ideology, expose their hatred of workers and accuse basically everybody in the organisation but themselves of antisemitism (more or less between the lines). The translation is far from perfect, but it should be sufficient to recognize the essential meaning. Enjoy.

Reaction of the Council of Instructed (BR) of Linksjugend ['solid] Saxony to the BSPR’s open letter to the SAV

„Stay out unprogressive ideologies! Stay out antisemitism!“ [English in original]

On the occasion of the BSPR’s open letter to the members of SAV in the youth organisation, we decided to formulate a deeper analysis of SAV, of the ideologies propagated by it and it’s sympathizers; as for a political dispute it just isn’t sufficient to criticize the SAV’s organisational structure. It must be asked if and where there are intersections with emancipatory politics to be found at all.

We don’t want to ask at which place a member of the youth organisation has his heart.

We rather want to ask fort he „positions in the head“ and wether they are compatible with the attributes „antifascist, socialist, grassroots democratic and emancipatory“. (1)

We want to ask how we, as a leftist youth organisation in the 21st century, can find answers to the question of a an alternative form of society, which is based on the thought that „free development of each is the condition for free development of all“(2). We also want to ask whether cooperating with individuals, organisations and groups who, in their criticism of capitalism, have more similarities than differences to anti-capitalism from the right is compativle with an emancipatory position.
Firstly we want to state that unlike the BSPR, we are deterred by the postitions of SAV and that we don’t want to win any young SAV members for the youth organisation as long as they propagate an anti-capitalism which uses, among others, an argumentation which allows, in its thought structure, intersections with modern antisemitism; as long as they hold anti-zionist positions, i.e. wish to exterminate Israel, the practical consequence of pogroms and the shoah; generally as long as they have ideologies within themselves which don’t transcend bourgeois society, but fall back behind it – as long as that is the case, we don’t want them in our youth organisation. Our criticism is not only directed at the ideologies/ideas/positions of SAV, but against all those who bear the aforementioned ideologies within themselves.
All in all it turned out that the entire Linksjugend [‘solid] strongly needs a substantial preoccupation with ideologies that again and again prove many members’ regressive positions.

At the same time we know that this mental regression is not only a problem of the SAV, but of the entire left. However, as in our opinion SAV has a vanguard position in being a model of leftist, regressive politics we took the ongoing debate as an occasion to express our criticism and strengthen emancipatory positions.
Modern antisemitism neither is only a special form of racism nor an instrument the bourgeoisie uses to divide the working class. Parts of the left often tend to treat antisemitism as being on the fringes of nazism. The question of qualitative distinctiveness of the shoa and thus national socialism can not be answered correctly as long as this is attempted using quantitative calculations of the number of victims or as long as nationalism is equalized with the concept of „fascism“. The jews were neither destroyes in order to solve military problems nor where they exterminated in order to reach economic aims. Neither was the aim of shoa to break the will of resistance fighters – the extermination of european judaism was an end in itself. For the nazis, the jews were „not a minority, but a counter-race, the negative principle as such, the world’s well-being is supposed to depend on their extermination.“ (3) Even in the last years of war the nazis used a notable part of logisitical power to deport each and every jew accross Europe to concentration camps, despite this power was needed to move reinforcements to the eastern front. A closer look reveals that the shoa can not be explained as long as antisemitism is seen as prejudice, as a different form of racism.

Now of course the question comes up what antisemitic extermination has to do with the SAV and the Linksjugend [‘solid]?

The answer is to be anwered [sic!] step by step in the following. It is, however, necessary to mention that this letter cannot replace an in-depth discussion of antisemitism and capitalism, but it can give thought-provoking impulses. We think that emancipatory politics is only possible if we express a materialistic criticism of society which incorporates/minds Auschwitz [„welche Auschwitz mitdenkt“ – very hard to translate]. To that end it is necessary to recognize the specifics of modern antisemitism, which can not be equalized with everyday anti-jewish resentments.All forms of antisemitism share the concept of a jewish power – which, in extreme cases, is accused of having caused both bolshevism and capitalism. Altogether this ideology is a thinking which thinks in the categories of „good“ and „evil“. In antisemitism a power is projected on the jews; which differentiates it from other racisms. „One wants to keep the niggers where they belong, the jews however shall be purged from the earth.“ (4) The difference ist hat all forms of racism kick downwards and attack a concrete, visible group of people who are seen as subhumans. Modern antisemitism however reaches upwards, abstractness and mysterious inconceivability are attributed to the jews. As this power is seen as not locally rooted and not touchable, it appears to be incredibly big. It thus stands for a clandestine international conspiracy. Modern antisemitism claims to explain the world. Economic crises and social upheaval during industrialisation were accredited to the jews in the 19th century. Industrialisation led to urbanization and the erosion of old values and norms, these occurances where also identified with the jews and gave them the name „The Children of Evil“.

Max Horkheimer stated in 1939 that in order to explain modern antisemitism it is necessary to „recur to the tendencies of capital“ (5)[not sure on this one], thus to analyse the properties of capital. Therefore it is necessary to look at the society which stands under the rule of value, in Marx’s sense. The fetiscism of bourgeois circumstances produces false images again and again. Marx describes the production process in two spheres – the sphere of circulation, which creates no „added value“ but is only necessary for the circulation of the entire process, and the sphere of production, in which added value is actually created.(6) In the ideology of national socialism these spheres were always separated – to one biological side, which is supposed to represent the creating capital – the sphere of production, the good, the German one – and on the other hand reaping capital - the sphere of circulation, the evil, the Jewish one. In this antisemitic ideology bourgeois capitalist circumstances are biologized and divided into good and evil. But capitalism is a form of rule [„Herrschaftsform“ – can’t really translate that] that is not personally bound – it thus is an impersonal rule by which all humans are subdued. The task of emancipatory politics is to express criticism of capitalism, not criticism of capitalists.

An anticapitalism which makes persons responsible for the negative consequences of capitalist rule and attributes traits to them which are attributed to jews in antisemitism is not a leftist one. With regards to the shoa it is necessary to fight against such positions, and if the claim to antifascism and emancipation is to be kept to, leftist politics needs to incorporate Adorno’s categorical imperative, which means to „arrange their thought and action so that Auschwitz would not repeat itself, nothing similar would happen.“(7)
In praxis it means for us that if for example Holger Burner, the musical animator of SAV, wants to „distribute uzis“ „with the call to lynch the bosses of all banks“(8), that a border of pluralism has been crossed, as this argumentation has the following in common with modern antisemitism – the hatred against the side of capital seen as abstract and artificial, as well as its personification. The small difference to antisemitism is that „only“ bankers are mentioned rather than jews. Facing Auschwitz, facing the national socialist crimes tolerating such spiteful associations is unbearable for us.

In relation to the SAV’s wishes to create a better capitalism in which „the law of value and the production of wares [...] is consciously used for increasing the society’s prosperity“(9) we find, like Marco Heinig(10), that they should have read their Marx better, as they would than have taken along Marx’s conclusion that the production of wares and the law of value among others create the very fetiscism of bourgeois circumstances. On this note we follow the Initiative Sozialistisches Forum [another antigerman grouplet] which wants to help „abolish a condition in which all roads which once led to Rome [...] now lead to the state“ (11)

Programmatic basics of SAV which look like this: „The riches produced by the working class is privately appropriated by a small minoritiy. This minoritiy ist the capitalist class, which can use all of ist economical and political power to defend ist privilege. State institutions including the parties dominating in parliaments are directly or indirectly connected to it“ (12) show an ideology that projects evil on „the capitalist class“ and accuses bourgeois parties of controlling the fate of mankind in collaboration with this „capitalist class“. We refuse every kind of dogmas because they are always contrary to a mature mind. An example of leftist dogmas was brought to us by Lenin, who propagated „The marxist doctrine is omnipotent because it is true. It is comprehensive and harmonious, and provides men with an integral world outlook.“ (13). It is also unbearable that the SAV wants to give the right of co-determination only to the „working population“(14) and not to all human beings in our society.

History and reality show that lunatics are able to do everything and that they should be taken seriously if they utter threats of extermination. The statement of SAV that „Palestinians can’t be victorious against Israel with military means alone“(15)[quoted out of context] - occasional suicide bombins and quassam rockets aren’t enough for revolution, the power of the masses shall shake the fundaments of Israel – speaks for itself and says much about the position of this organisation.

As anti-imperialists today don’t recognize Israel’s right to existence, it is our task as antifascists to intervene and to show not a bit of tolerance. In praxis this means no working together with these groups, so no collaboration with the SAV. On the palestinean state we don’t need to say more than „the sovereignity of a country is something else than the freedom of those who live in it“(16). As emancipatory leftists for us the only correct answer to modern antisemitism is the overcoming of capitalism towards a liberated society. The only possible answer to modern antisemitism at the moment ist he existence of a jewish state (17).

„The working class is the deciding force in capitalist society“ (18) says the SAV, we however ask wether it makes sense at all to consider the „working class“ as a revolutionary subject while all people are concerned by the inherent necessities of capitalism. In the study „Vom Rand zur Mitte“ [„From the fringe to the middle“] by Oliver Decker and Elmar Brähler, commissioned by the Friedrich-Ebert-Stiftung [the SPD’s think tank], it is stated that 26% of people in Germany support a right-wing authoritarian dictatorship. 17.8% think that the influence of jews in Germany is too big and 26.7% suffer from xenophobia. (19) The Germans have showed their revolutionary spirit several times, be it in the form of Auschwitz or more recently in the streets of Rostock-Lichtenhagen, Mölln, Mügeln, Solingen or Hoyerswerda [towns where well-known neo-nazi crimes where committed]. We can very well understand the language of the german street and exactly because of that we turn against politics which relates to this clientele, which considers it the revolutionary subject. Not every anticapitalism, not every revolutionary movement is emancipatory.

A societal transformation from capitalism to an „association of free people“ (20) for us not only means the abolition of „class relations“, but enlightenment, individualism, maturity, participation and the abolition of all (!) forms of rule. This however is not possible with an ideology that sees the „proletariat“ as an incapable toy of the evil rulers and proposes worker’s councils as an „optimal form of rule“ (21).

We want to conclude this letter with Immanuel Kant’s words:

„ A revolution may well put an end to autocratic despotism
and to rapacious or power-seeking oppression, but it will never produce a true
reform in ways of thinking. Instead, new prejudices, like the ones they
replaced, will serve as a leash to control the great unthinking mass.“ (22).

References
(1) http://www.linksjugend-solid.de/home/
(2) Karl Marx, „Manifest der Kommunistischen Partei“
(3) Theodor W. Adorno, Max Horkheimer; „Dialektik der Aufklärung“, „Elemente des Antisemitismus“
(4) Theodor W. Adorno, Max Horkheimer; „Dialektik der Aufklärung“, „Elemente des Antisemitismus“
(5) Max Horkheimer; „Die Juden und Europa“
(6) vgl. MEW 25
(7) Theodor W. Adorno; „Erziehung zur Mündigkeit“, „Erziehung nach Auschwitz“
(8) David Schultz „Holger Burner“; Album „Cypherpropaganda“, „Cuzzela“
(9) Grundsatzprogramm der SAV, 1999
(10)vgl. Marco Heinig; „Die Vorhut der Arbeiterklasse, vorwärts immer, rückwärts nimmer!“
(11)http://www.ca-ira.net/
(12)„Die SAV – wer wir sind und was wir wollen“; http://www.sozialismus.info/?sid=50
(13)Wladimir I. Lenin; 1913
(14)vgl. „Die SAV – wer wir sind und was wir wollen“, http://www.sozialismus.info/?sid=50
(15)„Solidarität – Sozialistische Zeitung · Nr. 76, Naher Osten“, http://www.sozialismus.info/?sid=2980
(16)vgl. Max Horkheimer von Stephan Grigat zitiert; Vortrag zur Kritik des Antisemitismus und kritischer Theorie des Zionismus
(17)vgl. Stephan Grigat; Vortrag zur Kritik des Antisemitismus und kritischer Theorie des Zionismus
(18)„Die SAV – wer wir sind und was wir wollen“, http://www.sozialismus.info/?sid=50
(19)Oliver Decker, Elmar Brähler; „Vom Rand zur Mitte“
(20)vgl. Karl Marx
(21)„Die SAV – wer wir sind und was wir wollen“, http://www.sozialismus.info/?sid=50
(22)Immanuel Kant; „Was ist Aufklärung“

We will offer meetings on structural antisemitism, the notion of class and ciriticism of capitalism in general in 2010.

Mather

10th February 2010, 21:41

I don't know why people keep giving time and effort to these reactionaries.

The Anti-Germans are bourgeois trash.

which doctor

11th February 2010, 02:36

I don't know why people keep giving time and effort to these reactionaries.

The Anti-Germans are bourgeois trash.
I bet you didn't even read the article.

Mather

11th February 2010, 03:42

I bet you didn't even read the article.

Well you bet wrong.

which doctor

11th February 2010, 03:52

Well you bet wrong.

Well than, mind going into a more detailed criticism than a knee jerk reaction to the title?

Mather

11th February 2010, 04:06

Well than, mind going into a more detailed criticism than a knee jerk reaction to the title?

What makes you think it's a knee jerk reaction? I know enough about the anti-germans to say what I said. This latest thread just shows them up even more.

which doctor

11th February 2010, 04:26

What makes you think it's a knee jerk reaction? I know enough about the anti-germans to say what I said. This latest thread just shows them up even more.
What exactly in this thread shows them up? All that we have in this thread is the article in question, one line responses from you, and you're refusal to back up any of your accusations.

In fact, I think all I've ever seen are knee jerk reactions to the anti-Germans, but yet no attempt to engage and critique them.

Revy

11th February 2010, 07:16

What exactly in this thread shows them up? All that we have in this thread is the article in question, one line responses from you, and you're refusal to back up any of your accusations.

In fact, I think all I've ever seen are knee jerk reactions to the anti-Germans, but yet no attempt to engage and critique them.

Do we really need to "engage" with them? I doubt they're that significant in comparison to Die Linke, the German Communist Party,etc.

They're lunatics. If that's a "knee jerk reaction" then so be it.

bcbm

11th February 2010, 08:51

In fact, I think all I've ever seen are knee jerk reactions to the anti-Germans, but yet no attempt to engage and critique them.

i'll echo the previous comment and ask why there is a need to engage them? from the sound of it, they're basically a very marginal force in the left these days. when i was there two years ago i only met one or two, and they were extremely moderate anyway. i don't think the anti-germans have any really political force, and i think they have already been very effectively engaged. in german there are already many critiques. this hasn't penetrated the english speaking world but then neither have anti-german politics, because they are in fact very dependent on german exceptionalism.

Red Commissar

11th February 2010, 20:02

I never really understood anti-germans. They seem to be as idiotic as the Westboro Church here in the United States with their odd stances.

cmdrdeathguts

12th February 2010, 01:31

I kind of like them, simply as an example of taking a certain shaky logic to its ridiculous extreme. There's something beautiful about it - it's half the fun of their beloved Adorno, anyway. I wish them a long and happy future - but in complete political irrelevance.

Tzadikim

12th February 2010, 17:55

I see no difference whatsoever, based solely on their Wikipedia article, between the Anti-Germans and early neoconservatism. I'm sure in twenty years these people will be reading Leo Strauss and pondering his mysteries.

cmdrdeathguts

12th February 2010, 18:01

The difference is that they're so much more fun! What other group out there has an epistemology grounded in national self-hatred?

Dimentio

12th February 2010, 18:45

Its not that they are in support of an authoritarian state - a sad lot of self-proclaimed progressives are. The important thing is...

....

....

How do the anti-germans want to reach their ideal society?

which doctor

13th February 2010, 05:53

Do we really need to "engage" with them? I doubt they're that significant in comparison to Die Linke, the German Communist Party,etc.

They're lunatics. If that's a "knee jerk reaction" then so be it.
All I'm asking is that you go give an analysis beyond calling them 'lunatics.'

i'll echo the previous comment and ask why there is a need to engage them? from the sound of it, they're basically a very marginal force in the left these days. when i was there two years ago i only met one or two, and they were extremely moderate anyway. i don't think the anti-germans have any really political force, and i think they have already been very effectively engaged. in german there are already many critiques. this hasn't penetrated the english speaking world but then neither have anti-german politics, because they are in fact very dependent on german exceptionalism.
For starters, all forces on the left today are marginal political forces. In this sense, I think they're all worth engaging with, especially provocative tendencies like the anti-germans. While I don't necessarily agree with the anti-germans, and I do find them a bit odd myself, but I think they do provide a good critique of what passes for leftist politics these days. Having said that, I don't agree the extreme to which they have taken their stance on anti-semitism of: "The only possible answer to modern antisemitism at the moment ist he existence of a jewish state"

Another reason I find them interesting is because they're heavily influenced by a theorist named Moishe Postone, who teaches Marx, among other things at the U of Chicago. But apart from the anti-germans, Postone really hasn't been to influential. I actually know several students of his and I've heard mixed things about him, including that 'he's only a marxist when they're aren't any other marxists in the room.'

cmdrdeathguts

13th February 2010, 23:02

You're being a little unfair to Postone - Time, Labour and Social Domination has had wider influence on that section of the left of which the antideutsch are an idiosyncratic subgrouping - autonomist/council/neo-situ currents, in short. There was also a symposium on it in Historical Materialism a few years back.

Here's an interview done by our other least favourite left-zionist sect, the AWL:

http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/02/05/zionism-anti-semitism-and-left

note how the antideutsch document in the OP reproduces almost word for word the Postone definition of antisemitism - and now the AWL have picked it up too, judging from the uncritical tone of the interview.

which doctor

14th February 2010, 04:33

cmdrdeathguts

15th February 2010, 15:16

And there's something fishy about that theory of anti-semitism, apart from the political consequences of course, which I can't quite put my finger on.

15th February 2010, 15:31

And there's something fishy about that theory of anti-semitism, apart from the political consequences of course, which I can't quite put my finger on.

Probably their political conclusions come first, and their "theory" of "anti-Semitism" is just a post factum justification for their support for imperialism.

cmdrdeathguts

16th February 2010, 18:29

That would be true of the antideutsch - in fact, I don't see how they aren't constructing an 'anti-semitic' abstract totality in the form of German imperialism and authoritarianism - it certainly seems that their whole discourse is constructed around this idea, and therefore on what is in their book an 'anti-semitic logic'.

I'm not so sure it's true of Postone.

which doctor

21st February 2010, 03:04

How do the anti-germans want to reach their ideal society?
Socialist revolution.

What were you expecting the answer to be?

bobby

21st February 2010, 23:21

I am from Germany and some people maybe might calling me "antideutsch". Because of this i want to say a few words.

I think most of the people here are *****ing about the antigermans without really knowing who they are. --> w w w. copyriot. c o m/sinistra/reading/texte/antigermans. h t m l

First of all you can't speak about "the" antigermans. There are many different antigerman people, groups and ideas, wich have different views. It isn't a a homogeneous movement.

Generally there are no people anymore, which call theirself antigerman (they call theirselfs antinationalist, critical theorists,...) but the antigerman influence in Germany was/is big: Nearly all leftradical groups in germany are solidary with Israel, in most squats you aren't allowed to enter with a pali-scarf (bikinibottom. blogsport. d e /2007/03/01/cool-kids-dont-wear-pali-scarfs/) and when you wear a button of Palistine, cuba, iran or venezuela you maybe will get in trouble (or at least in a discussion) in left places in germany.

Socialist revolution.
What were you expecting the answer to be?

Hm. Not all. A lot of antigerman communist are thinking about a social revolution, but nearly nobody of them want it now. They think most of the "normal people" arn't able to criticize the capitalism correctly and have a antiamerican and antisemitic critizism of capitalism. A revolution now could only be a regressive revolution.

which doctor

22nd February 2010, 05:29

Hm. Not all. A lot of antigerman communist are thinking about a social revolution, but nearly nobody of them want it now. They think most of the "normal people" arn't able to criticize the capitalism correctly and have a antiamerican and antisemitic critizism of capitalism. A revolution now could only be a regressive revolution.
Well of course a socialist revolution isn't by any means a possibility right now, but this is the end-goal for most of them, isn't it?

bobby

22nd February 2010, 18:18

Well yes, the final goal is the communism, the free and emancipated society.

Devrim

22nd February 2010, 18:34

Generally there are no people anymore, which call theirself antigerman (they call theirselfs antinationalist, critical theorists,...) but the antigerman influence in Germany was/is big: Nearly all leftradical groups in germany are solidary with Israel, in most squats you aren't allowed to enter with a pali-scarf (bikinibottom. blogsport. d e /2007/03/01/cool-kids-dont-wear-pali-scarfs/) and when you wear a button of Palistine, cuba, iran or venezuela you maybe will get in trouble (or at least in a discussion) in left places in germany.

Cool kids don’t wear Pally scarvesOK, you’re somewhat surprised. You wear a Palestinian scarf. You’re young, maybe you’d call yourself radical, maybe not. Maybe you’re an antifascist, maybe not. In any case, you wear a Palestinian scarf.
Maybe you’ve just bought it, maybe you’ve had it for a while. To get to the point: Every item of clothing is a statement. Every item of clothing has a (hi)story. And especially this one.
Since 1968, when students were for the Vietcong and against the Americans in Vietnam, this item of clothing has gradually become fashionable.
At that time, so-called National liberation movements, such as that of 1968-1975 in Vietnam, were the focus of solidarity. The Vietnamese Nation (Volk) was fighting for its freedom – in the nineties, it was the Kurdish Nation (Volk) that was fighting for ist freedom, or the Palestinian Nation (Volk). In every case, it was a Nation (Volk) in question. Strange somehow.
In Germany today, only the Nazis still talk of National liberation and refer to the just struggle of the Palestinian Nation (Volk), against Israel, against the State of the Jews. And here we are. At the conflict between Palestinians and Israel. Already, between 1936 and 1939, this item of clothing, originally worn only by the rural Fedayin of Arabia, was imposed by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (al-Husseini, the great Nazi collaborator) upon his own people upon threat of punishment. European headwear was forbidden. Those resisting this imposition were assaulted or shot dead. The German National Socialists supported this Grand Mufti financially. Thus, the Nazis started a press campaign in Berlin against the partition of Palestine. The Grand Mufti promptly thanked the German Nazis: in this way, the German government did the independence struggle of the Arabs in Palestine a great service. The Palestinian scarf is an expression of the fight against Israel.
And why do Nazis wear Pally scarves today? Because they are simply anti-Semites, and because they have a lot of admiration for a Nation (Volk) whose members fight right up to physical self-destruction for their land, which they call holy. Here, Nazis are a bit jealous that they don’t possess this murderous daily life.
The Palestinian scarf is the story of a radical left-wing aberration, or error. It is time to recognise this error and in future to wear a scarf from H&M, C&A or one knitted by dad.
Cool kids don’t wear Pally scarves.

Wow! Despite the fact that there is nothing particularly Palestinian about the scarf anyway, this really is a bizarre article.

Devrim

bobby

23rd February 2010, 19:16

Wow! Despite the fact that there is nothing particularly Palestinian about the scarf anyway,

Ehhm.....what? :blink:

h t t p : // e n . wikipedia. o r g /wiki/Keffiyeh#Palestinian_national_symbol

Devrim

23rd February 2010, 19:25

Ehhm.....what? :blink:

h t t p : // e n . wikipedia. o r g /wiki/Keffiyeh#Palestinian_national_symbol

It is worn throughout the entire region by Arabs, Persians, Kurds, and Turks. Maybe in the West it has that image, primarily because of Arafat, but here in Turkey, it is more connected with Kurds.

Devrim

Sasha

24th February 2010, 13:08

It is time to recognise this error and in future to wear a scarf from H&M, C&A

yeah lets buy stuff from big capitalist companys who exploit the third world!!!
sums up anti-germans epic failure pretty well.
"lets be so obsesd by real or not real anti-semitism that we support capitalism/imperialism"

bobby

25th February 2010, 01:01

yeah lets buy stuff from big capitalist companys who exploit the third world!!!
sums up anti-germans epic failure pretty well.
"lets be so obsesd by real or not real anti-semitism that we support capitalism/imperialism"

:closedeyes:
Do u know what? We also wear NIKE, we drink Coca Cola and eat at McDonalds.
We don't support capitalism, but you don't understand how Capitalism works.
There are no "good" or "bad" companies, there is only the system of competition and profit maximization.
All concerns are forced to produce as cheap as they can if they want to sell their products and survive in the competition. Not only the big ones.

You don't get the point, if you rail against "the global players" and think that the little stores are better...
There is no right life in the wrong one.

lets be so obsesd by real or not real anti-semitism

Did you ever read more about antisemitism as a little text on a flyer? No? Then ask, read or shut up, but don't talk shit...

Sasha

25th February 2010, 01:58

Did you ever read more about antisemitism as a little text on a flyer? No? Then ask, read or shut up, but don't talk shit...

:lol: dude, stop being so typical anti-german and inform you self before you say stupid things...

a. i'm jewish, and yes i had my whole family masacared, swastika's dabded on frontdoor when i was kid solly based on my mums last name etc etc, pages and pages on scumfront dedicated to me for being an jewish antifascist. i know what anti-semititism is, i think a lot better than you...

b. i'm, together with this site's owner malte and one or two other ppl, one of the few apricienting the anti-german critique of leftist anti-semitism. I used to have some daft zionist ideas, i'm proud of standing i a long line of reform-judeaism and im still aprieciative of some aspects of kibutzim.
and yeah, as you can see in my sig i support anarchist against the wall and een ander joods geluid, not because i'm an anti-semite, but because i'm an real anti-nationale, not an psychotic hypocrite.

c. idiot

cmdrdeathguts

25th February 2010, 02:00

Bobby, do you support the Postone thesis on anti-semitism (that it constructs the Jew as an abstract totality representative of international capitalism, and thus has a peculiarly seductive emancipatory dimension absent from other racisms)? If not, then disregard everything that follows.

1. how does the characteristic anti-german notion that German imperialism represents a unique historical danger not produce exactly the same spurious emancipatory dimension of an abstract, all-powerful enemy?

2. how does this definition of anti-semitism not include Zionism, which is organised around the idea that the Jews do represent an abstract (national) totality, and that their national home is Israel? On what basis would the anti-Germans possibly exonerate their support for Israel in the face of those they accuse of making Jews into an all-powerful force? There is no problem for the rest of us, among whom it is common wisdom that Zionism is nothing less than the Jewish version of anti-Semitism.

This certainly *does* apply to the antigerman outfit quoted in the OP, btw - and all other Postonites of similar politics.

Devrim

25th February 2010, 07:19

:closedeyes:
Do u know what? We also wear NIKE, we drink Coca Cola and eat at McDonalds.
We don't support capitalism, but you don't understand how Capitalism works.
There are no "good" or "bad" companies, there is only the system of competition and profit maximization.
All concerns are forced to produce as cheap as they can if they want to sell their products and survive in the competition. Not only the big ones.

I actually agree with this. I don't think anti-Germans who support Israel do though. I don't think there is anything special about Israel/Zionism. It is just another capitalist state and another nationalist ideology.

yeah lets buy stuff from big capitalist companys who exploit the third world!!!

When I buy clothes I buy what is cheapest for the quality. I imagine a good proportion of them are made in the so-called 'third world'.

On the point of the headscarves, or Puşi as they are called in Turkish, don't you think it is a bit of a serious problem when 'leftists' are so against an item of clothing worn commonly by members of the biggest immigrant community in Germany.

Devrim

Dimentio

25th February 2010, 13:44

I cannot understand that hatred against Germany. I know several European nations where there is an actual threat that fascism might take over. Germany's not one of them today.

On a more humorous note, German music is awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKv0WElr3g4

which doctor

25th February 2010, 17:05

1. how does the characteristic anti-german notion that German imperialism represents a unique historical danger not produce exactly the same spurious emancipatory dimension of an abstract, all-powerful enemy?
I'm not bobby, but as someone who's been influenced by postoneoids and adornoites, I'll try to answer this. What gives the Jews an 'emancipatory dimension' can be traced back to their domination of the early finance sector, since the Vatican had forbid Christians from participating in it. Therefore, the Jews were at the vanguard of international capitalism, in one of the most advanced and 'internationalist' aspects of capitalism, the finance sector. Yet they were also a people without a nation, and always the persecuted minority in a Christian Europe. Being at the vanguard of capitalism, anti-semitism turned into an ideology, that by its very definition, served to conceal the means of production. Thus, subject to much persecution (pogroms, etc.), they became acutely aware of the barbarism of the class-struggle in capitalism.

German imperalism, doesn't have the 'same spurious emancipatory dimension of an abstract, all-powerful enemy' because it is the most striking example of historical regression, specifically as it relates to Nazism, a movement with its early roots in what was the most progressive, mass labor party ever to exist in Europe, the SPD. Nazism combined the most reactionary tendencies of a once progressive working-class with a no holds barred anti-semitism and created an expansionist ideology with the goal of exterminating the entire European Jewry.

That the momentous moment of historical progress possible in the German Revolution of 1918-1919, could so quickly regress into what was one of the most barbaric ideologies to have ever existed, is what makes all of this so exceptional.

Wanted Man

25th February 2010, 17:57

bobby

25th February 2010, 18:43

a. i'm jewish, and yes i had my whole family masacared, swastika's dabded on frontdoor when i was kid solly based on my mums last name etc etc, pages and pages on scumfront dedicated to me for being an jewish antifascist. i know what anti-semititism is, i think a lot better than you...

First of all: Religious and "folkish" belongship don't protect from ideology. Only because you believe in a religion, or your mother was jewish or you were hunted because you were Jewish, doesn't let you automatic know everything about antisemitism.

Bobby, do you support the Postone thesis on anti-semitism (that it constructs the Jew as an abstract totality representative of international capitalism, and thus has a peculiarly seductive emancipatory dimension absent from other racisms)?

Yes I do. And because of this, it is even possible that somebody called jewish could theoretically be antisemitic (well in most cases they aren't but theoretically it's possible...).

1. how does the characteristic anti-german notion that German imperialism represents a unique historical danger not produce exactly the same spurious emancipatory dimension of an abstract, all-powerful enemy?

The characteristic antigerman don't think that actual german imperialism is a unique danger.
They mention only that the shoa was a historically unique crime, because millions of people are killed, without a materialistic reason, but because of a deathly (antisemitic) ideology. There was a industrially annihilation, a killing only for killing.

The biggest difference is, that nazi-germany was a real and concrete danger for jews and other people. The danger that is announced by antisemitism is not real, it is fictional.

2. how does this definition of anti-semitism not include Zionism, which is organized around the idea that the Jews do represent an abstract (national) totality, and that their national home is Israel? On what basis would the anti-Germans possibly exonerate their support for Israel in the face of those they accuse of making Jews into an all-powerful force? There is no problem for the rest of us, among whom it is common wisdom that Zionism is nothing less than the Jewish version of anti-Semitism.

Well, the point is that in this definition antisemitism is not only related to jews. There is nothing special on their religion or "race"(sic!), the thing is only that their were a minority without nation, and there were a lot of jews in the financial sector.
Because of this, there were seen as the secret wire-pullovers of capitalism, as anti-national elements that incarnate money,capitalism and globalization.
But this thinking could theoretically not only affect jews.

We don't think Israel is the "natural home of all jewish". We only say that there is (still) antisemitism (in the definition of adorno/postone) and it is a real and lethal danger for people.
To protect people who are endangered of antisemitism the only possibility today is a nation to protect them.
All antigermans are also also antinational. They don't like nations, but Israel is a "necessary evil". All nations have to disappear, but Israel has to be the last one.

Because of this, antigermans "support" Israel. Not in every actual political decision, but it its right to exist and to defend itself.

don't you think it is a bit of a serious problem when 'leftists' are so against an item of clothing worn commonly by members of the biggest immigrant community in Germany.

This scarfs are not worn a lot by immigrant in germany. Actual it is mostly worn by leftwings (not anymore) and unpolitical young hipsters, because they are "in vogue" in germany.

But i don't think a piece of clothing is good, only because it is worn by immigrants. They are not better people as natives as well.

I cannot understand that hatred against Germany.

There is no "hatred". There is only the the criticism of Nation, Folk and specific post-fascistic elements in german nationalism.

bobby

25th February 2010, 18:57

But you definitely seem to be concerned by "Pali scarfs". What's the difference?

The difference is, that products like Coca Cola, NIKE Shoes, etc were criticized because they were produced from big companies in a exploitative way.
This is right, but this criticism don't consider that every capitalistic production is exploitative.
Well, I support buying fair trade products instead of "normal" products. But if a critique of capitalism makes several products and companies to the main theme, it is a shortened critique.

The Pali-Scarf is not criticized because it was produced exploitative.
It is criticized because it is a symbol of a nationalist, folkish and antisemitic struggle.

Dean

25th February 2010, 19:20

I am from Germany and some people maybe might calling me "antideutsch". Because of this i want to say a few words.

I think most of the people here are *****ing about the antigermans without really knowing who they are. --> w w w. copyriot. c o m/sinistra/reading/texte/antigermans. h t m l

First of all you can't speak about "the" antigermans. There are many different antigerman people, groups and ideas, wich have different views. It isn't a a homogeneous movement.

Generally there are no people anymore, which call theirself antigerman (they call theirselfs antinationalist, critical theorists,...) but the antigerman influence in Germany was/is big: Nearly all leftradical groups in germany are solidary with Israel, in most squats you aren't allowed to enter with a pali-scarf (bikinibottom. blogsport. d e /2007/03/01/cool-kids-dont-wear-pali-scarfs/) and when you wear a button of Palistine, cuba, iran or venezuela you maybe will get in trouble (or at least in a discussion) in left places in germany.

Hm. Not all. A lot of antigerman communist are thinking about a social revolution, but nearly nobody of them want it now. They think most of the "normal people" arn't able to criticize the capitalism correctly and have a antiamerican and antisemitic critizism of capitalism. A revolution now could only be a regressive revolution.

So you're a bunch of elitists, in other words. Unsurprising that you would come up with a racialist agenda and in the same breath denounce the entire working class as "regressive."

Wanted Man

25th February 2010, 19:22

First of all: Religious and "folkish" belongship don't protect from ideology. Only because you believe in a religion, or your mother was jewish or you were hunted because you were Jewish, doesn't let you automatic know everything about antisemitism.

But it is perfectly right and fitting for non-Jewish leftists to make up grand theories of how Jews should feel about themselves and "their nation". It is so arrogant. I keep thinking of the anecdote of an IDF refusenik who goes to Dresden and gets chastised by anti-Germans for being a coward:

The following week found me staying at a social center in Dresden. Among the other occupants of the space were two Israelis, who—like many young Israelis I had met upon earlier visits to Europe[2][2] Among others, I had spent time with members of the band Dir Yassin, an anarchist and anti-Zionist band from Israel. They were interviewed in the anarcho-punk magazine Profane Existence in 1998, and with luck you can still find the interview.—were traveling the continent in order to avoid the draft that compels Israelis to serve in the military. I fell to talking politics with one of them. He declined to take a position on the Israel-Palestine conflict—an admirable enough stance for a person coming from such a complicated situation, who had accepted exile rather than risk killing or dying for a cause in which he did not believe.

Others in Germany had not respected his decision, however. He recounted to me his experience traveling for a few days with a German band; when it came out that he was avoiding military service, another person on the tour—a German gentile, otherwise committed to revolutionary politics—was outraged: “You mean you wouldn’t serve to protect your people? You coward!”
http://www.crimethinc.com/texts/rollingthunder/antinationalist.php

:rolleyes:

]We don't think Israel is the "natural home of all jewish". We only say that there is (still) antisemitism (in the definition of adorno/postone) and it is a real and lethal danger for people.
To protect people who are endangered of antisemitism the only possibility today is a nation to protect them.
All antigermans are also also antinational. They don't like nations, but Israel is a "necessary evil". All nations have to disappear, but Israel has to be the last one.

What exactly is the difference between what you stand for, and what you don't claim to support? Considering that the disappearance of all nations is something very far away at the moment, what does it matter? This is a very poor justification.

Because of this, antigermans "support" Israel. Not in every actual political decision, but it its right to exist and to defend itself.

Again, what's the difference? Do you denounce the recent invasions of Lebanon and Gaza, or are they also justified self-defence that helps avoid a new Holocaust? If the latter, there is not much point in further discussion. It's as far removed from reality as one can possibly be, but I'm sure there are very fancy theories behind it...

The difference is, that products like Coca Cola, NIKE Shoes, etc were criticized because they were produced from big companies in a exploitative way.
This is right, but this criticism don't consider that every capitalistic production is exploitative.
Well, I support buying fair trade products instead of "normal" products. But if a critique of capitalism makes several products and companies to the main theme, it is a shortened critique.

Agreed.

The Pali-Scarf is not criticized because it was produced exploitative.
It is criticized because it is a symbol of a nationalist, folkish and antisemitic struggle.

Right. :lol: A symbol that exists only in your head. By the way, what do you think of this:

http://msc.walla.co.il/w/w-248/311913-18.jpg

http://tourism.walla.co.il/?w=/1/1039036

Also, a slightly related question. What do you think of this: http://entdinglichung.wordpress.com/2010/02/17/english-defence-league-edl-die-neuen-freunde-des-soren-punjer/

Lumpen Bourgeois

25th February 2010, 21:50

We don't think Israel is the "natural home of all jewish". We only say that there is (still) antisemitism (in the definition of adorno/postone) and it is a real and lethal danger for people.

To protect people who are endangered of antisemitism the only possibility today is a nation to protect them.

So the state of Israel is a safer place, on average, for a jew to live today than say New York City?

bobby

26th February 2010, 00:13

So you're a bunch of elitists, in other words. Unsurprising that you would come up with a racialist agenda and in the same breath denounce the entire working class as "regressive."

1. Were do I have a "racialist agenda"? -.-

2. I never said, that "the entire working class" is regressive. But I think most of the people (not only the "working class") are not able to criticize the capitalism progressive, and yes, lots of people have a regressive criticism of capitalism. Not because of they are dumb. This is considered with ideology, necessary wrong consciousness [German: notwendig falsches bewußtsein] and capitalism infatuation-coherency [German: kapitalistischer Verbledungszusammenhang] (i don't know if this are the right words, its hard to translate such special terms...)
It is not arrogant or elitist to say this, it is even important to criticize this wrong ideologies.

But it is perfectly right and fitting for non-Jewish leftists to make up grand theories of how Jews should feel about themselves and "their nation". It is so arrogant.

What? And when i change my religion then I can talk about Israel? Or is it not my religion, but my wrong "race"?? :blink:
Well the thing is I don't think in the categories like "folk", "race" or "nation". It is stupid to say Israel is the "Land of the Jew(ish folk)" and only they are allowed to talk about it.
Of course it is arrogant to make theories how other should feel, but I don't do so. I just say how antisemitism works, mention that it is a actual danger, and people are protected from antisemitism in Israel.

Considering that the disappearance of all nations is something very far away at the moment, what does it matter?

It matters. The end of capitalism is also far away, but we talk about it anyway, don't we?

Again, what's the difference? Do you denounce the recent invasions of Lebanon and Gaza, or are they also justified self-defense that helps avoid a new Holocaust?

Just read what I wrote. I support the right to exist and to defend itself. And yes, if it necessary also with weapons.
Concerning the recent "invasions": I prefer Israel in the borders of 1967. I neither support the settlements nor the wall.
I think Israel makes a lot bad things in the military conflict.
But you also have to consider that Israel didn't started the war. And today Israel is attacked by the Hamas, they send rockets to kill isrealic civilians. Israel has to defend itself. Yes I agree, the tactic is wrong, but Israel is not the (only) initiator of this conflict.

Right. :lol: A symbol that exists only in your head. By the way, what do you think of this:

*pic*
h t t p : / / tourism . walla . c o . i l / ? w = / 1 /1039036

Oh man, come on! Don't make a fool of yourself.

It is a fact that the Pali-Scarf is a symbol of "Palestine Freedom Movement". I don't know much about the situation in the Netherlands or in Turkey, but in Germany it was born by leftwings because of this. Especially in the so called 68-Movement it is worn because they were solidarity with national-movements, for example in Palestine or Kurdistan. Antinationalists/Antigermans (and I) mention that such movements can be regressive, because they are nationalists and folkish. And some of them - like the Palestine-Movement had also antisemitic elements.
Because of this the Pali-Scarf is also worn by Nazis in Germany and criticized by anti-nationalists and antigermans.

And only because a woman (maybe from Israel, who cares...) wears it, the history and the meaning of the pali-scarf doesn't change.

Also, a slightly related question. What do you think of this: h t t p : / / entdinglichung . w o r d p r e s s . c o m /...-soren-punjer/

I didn't read the article in the Bahamas, but when I do so I'll answer you (currently I haven't enough time...)

So the state of Israel is a safer place, on average, for a jew to live today than say New York City?

I don't know who the situation is for a jew in New York. But are all jews allowed to move to New York and to live there? I don't think so. But they are allowed to move to Israel and live there.

26th February 2010, 02:03

I'm not bobby, but as someone who's been influenced by postoneoids and adornoites, I'll try to answer this. What gives the Jews an 'emancipatory dimension' can be traced back to their domination of the early finance sector, since the Vatican had forbid Christians from participating in it. Therefore, the Jews were at the vanguard of international capitalism, in one of the most advanced and 'internationalist' aspects of capitalism, the finance sector. Yet they were also a people without a nation, and always the persecuted minority in a Christian Europe. Being at the vanguard of capitalism, anti-semitism turned into an ideology, that by its very definition, served to conceal the means of production. Thus, subject to much persecution (pogroms, etc.), they became acutely aware of the barbarism of the class-struggle in capitalism.

German imperalism, doesn't have the 'same spurious emancipatory dimension of an abstract, all-powerful enemy' because it is the most striking example of historical regression, specifically as it relates to Nazism, a movement with its early roots in what was the most progressive, mass labor party ever to exist in Europe, the SPD. Nazism combined the most reactionary tendencies of a once progressive working-class with a no holds barred anti-semitism and created an expansionist ideology with the goal of exterminating the entire European Jewry.

That the momentous moment of historical progress possible in the German Revolution of 1918-1919, could so quickly regress into what was one of the most barbaric ideologies to have ever existed, is what makes all of this so exceptional.
It is a funny thing, to have such an analysis of anti-Semitism, and then to completely neglect any analysis of Zionism (when, outside of fantasy land, the two cannot actually be separated, and the latter has a concrete interest in perpetuating the former). The reality is that you can not actually understand the former as it presently exists without analyzing the latter. Of course, this would remove the impetus for supporting Zionism and American/Israeli imperialism, so it’s no wonder the anti-Germans can‘t be bothered with it.

We don't think Israel is the "natural home of all jewish". We only say that there is (still) antisemitism (in the definition of adorno/postone) and it is a real and lethal danger for people.
To protect people who are endangered of antisemitism the only possibility today is a nation to protect them.

Because of this, antigermans "support" Israel.

And this is because you don't actually care to understand modern anti-Semitism at all. You don't actually have any idea or concern that when a murderous imperialist state founded on ethnic cleansing claims to represent and speak for all the Jews of the world while harvesting organs (which it admitted to, after a couple months of denouncing the accusations as "blood libel") and butchering an entire population that this actually has very real implications for Jews living outside of Israel (the majority of Jews in the world) and that this is instrumental in perpetuating anti-Semitism as it presently exists.
But again, I don't believe for a second that you people actually give a shit about anti-Semitism; it is just a political bludgeon that you use in order to justify your support for imperialism.

Though I think this says it all:

Originally Posted by bobby
But you also have to consider that Israel didn't started the war. And today Israel is attacked by the Hamas, they send rockets to kill isrealic civilians. Israel has to defend itself.

bcbm

26th February 2010, 02:42

Antinationalists/Antigermans (and I) mention that such movements can be regressive, because they are nationalists and folkish

unlike israel.

Devrim

26th February 2010, 12:52

But you also have to consider that Israel didn't started the war. And today Israel is attacked by the Hamas, they send rockets to kill isrealic civilians. Israel has to defend itself. Yes I agree, the tactic is wrong, but Israel is not the (only) initiator of this conflict.

For communists the question is not which side starts bourgeois wars. Wars are started by capitalism. It is not a question of looking and trying to decided which individual state is the 'aggressor' and then supporting its opponents.

Regardless of that, I don't think you are even right in your own terms. Israel is not some 'poor little country' being victimised, but a major regional power.

I think Israel makes a lot bad things in the military conflict.

Capitalist states tend to.

Oh man, come on! Don't make a fool of yourself.

It is a fact that the Pali-Scarf is a symbol of "Palestine Freedom Movement". I don't know much about the situation in the Netherlands or in Turkey, but in Germany it was born by leftwings because of this. Especially in the so called 68-Movement it is worn because they were solidarity with national-movements, for example in Palestine or Kurdistan. Antinationalists/Antigermans (and I) mention that such movements can be regressive, because they are nationalists and folkish. And some of them - like the Palestine-Movement had also antisemitic elements.
Because of this the Pali-Scarf is also worn by Nazis in Germany and criticized by anti-nationalists and antigermans.

And only because a woman (maybe from Israel, who cares...) wears it, the history and the meaning of the pali-scarf doesn't change.

I wear one because it stops my ears getting cold in the winter. It is a common item of clothing in our country. I don't in anyway support Palestinian or Kurdish nationalism.

This scarfs are not worn a lot by immigrant in germany. Actual it is mostly worn by leftwings (not anymore) and unpolitical young hipsters, because they are "in vogue" in germany.

But i don't think a piece of clothing is good, only because it is worn by immigrants. They are not better people as natives as well.

When I was in in Hanover last year. I saw many Turks and Kurds wearing them. It is probably due to the circles that you mix in that you don't. They clothing is not good because it is worn by immigrants, but nor is it bad.

I do feel that there is something problematic when so called socialists are deeming a normal item of clothing of what is probably the biggest minority in their country to be in some way 'unacceptable'.

I also feel that you are completely missing the point about racism in Germany today. When I was there last year it was "Türken Raus", not "Jüden Raus" that I saw written on the walls.

Devrim

Sasha

26th February 2010, 14:29

I just say how antisemitism works, mention that it is a actual danger, and people are protected from antisemitism in Israel.

no they are not, read this book: http://www.bookmasters.com/marktplc/02104judaism.htm

Dean

26th February 2010, 14:49

1. Were do I have a "racialist agenda"? -.-
You think that a nationalist state with an ethnic identity, responsible for ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people, is necessary to insure that Jews have security, or something along those lines. Whatever your particular reasoning is, it is clear that you view Israeli rights as preferable to Palestinian, or even popular rights in the region. You're very clear in your opposition to racial equality.

2. I never said, that "the entire working class" is regressive. But I think most of the people (not only the "working class") are not able to criticize the capitalism progressive, and yes, lots of people have a regressive criticism of capitalism. Not because of they are dumb. This is considered with ideology, necessary wrong consciousness [German: notwendig falsches bewußtsein] and capitalism infatuation-coherency [German: kapitalistischer Verbledungszusammenhang] (i don't know if this are the right words, its hard to translate such special terms...)
It is not arrogant or elitist to say this, it is even important to criticize this wrong ideologies.
You think that US and Israeli military aggression are somehow more progressive than popular resistance. For what reason? Because of theocratic rhetoric? Because of reactionary currents within the subject states? It's pretty clear that you've fully swallowed the neoliberal attitude towards "expansion of democracy," not the least of which is its character as a capitalist and imperialist doctrine responsible for wars of imperial aggression, land theft and resource theft. This is not progressive, it is a characteristic of struggling capitalist economies attempting to maintain hegemony. The Iran-west conflict is a particularly glaring example of this nonsense.

The fact that you reject "folk" ideologies is rather interesting. I took a cursory glance at 'folk' insofar as it pertains to German history, and it basically represents populism. The fact that you would reject populism in general, and support western aggression, tells me that you support a (presumably European) vanguard movement which will "bring culture to the savages of the world."

Anti-Germanism is race politics. Leftists as a rule reject racism and racialism in all its manifestations. No ethnic group deserves rights at the expense of other ethnic groups, and furthermore we are interested in the material manifestation of racism. That means that, in terms off Germany, anti-Arab and Islamophobic racism is more pressing, and the racist characteristics of the Israeli state - which is a white nationalist regime - defines it as an enemy of leftists the world over.

I unashamedly endorse folk ideology, which means that I think people in their own community deserve autonomy. The anti-German hatred of "folkism," along with all the other childish rhetoric you spew, is nothing more than a confused reaction against German nationalism, putting you in the incredibly ironic, awkward state of defending a white nationalist regime against the popular resistance of the indigenous population.

It's almost impossible to honesty respond to you, because its all like an Orwellian joke. It's fundamentally preposterous to support a racist regime in the furtherance of the interests of one oppressed people; you may as well be on the other side of the fence, declaring that Arab rights trump Jewish rights. It's disgusting, vile rhetoric, and its all the more laughable when you are supporting an imperial, capitalist regime against a destitute, economically strangled population. It's just fucking ludicrous.

Leo

26th February 2010, 18:09

Pali-Scarf

This term "Pali" or "Pally" sounds disturbingly too close to "Paki" or "Paddy". The text "Anti-German for Dummies" reads not much differently from a border-fascist text, taking the contemporary political situation in Europe.

26th February 2010, 19:50

Leo is pretty much right, that's a horribly racist twatty "antideutsch tradition" - "cool kids don't wear pali-scarves".

Just do a google search of it to find out exactly what they mean, filthy islamic terrorists. :rolleyes: http://ibloga.blogspot.com/2008/03/pali-scarf-sign-of-islamic-terror.html.

Anti-deutschism is utterly moronic and pro-imperialist and you, which doctor, you seem to be upholding this, so be aware of what you are supporting: imperialism. It's hardly surprising though as you espouse typical zionist white guilt and you uncritically support movements against "islamic terror" like the Iranian state, whereas other communists don't just dive in head first against the "evil islamic terrorists".

which doctor

26th February 2010, 21:12

Anti-deutschism is utterly moronic and pro-imperialist and you, which doctor, you seem to be upholding this, so be aware of what you are supporting: imperialism.
Just because I've ditched bad New Left 'anti-imperialist' politics in favor of internationalism and a more sober view of world affairs, does not mean I support imperialism. Nor do I uphold anti-deutsche, although my thought does intersect with theres in a few aspects, positions which I had held long before I'd ever heard of the anti-deutsche.

It's hardly surprising though as you espouse typical zionist white guilt
I don't even have a clue what 'typical zionist white guilt' would look like, but I would like you to point out where I espouse such views.

and you uncritically support movements against "islamic terror" like the Iranian state, whereas other communists don't just dive in head first against the "evil islamic terrorists".
Please tell me exactly which movements against 'islamic terror' I uncritically support. Really, I'm very curious to know and I'll be waiting for your reply.

Omi

26th February 2010, 23:22

26th February 2010, 23:35

Just because I've ditched bad New Left 'anti-imperialist' politics in favor of internationalism and a more sober view of world affairs, does not mean I support imperialism. Nor do I uphold anti-deutsche, although my thought does intersect with theres in a few aspects, positions which I had held long before I'd ever heard of the anti-deutsche.

So what? You sympathise which is the point, you defend them in almost every way, it's really telling of your politics when you defend Israel but call for the death of the Iranian regime (uncritically supporting the 'green movement') as terrible Islamist reactionaries.

I don't even have a clue what 'typical zionist white guilt' would look like, but I would like you to point out where I espouse such views.

So you deny that there is white guilt for "the persecuted Jews" in the West then. Once again, very telling.

Please tell me exactly which movements against 'islamic terror' I uncritically support. Really, I'm very curious to know and I'll be waiting for your reply.

The 'green movement' in Iran, you consider the whole thing to be socialist and "progressive" as you said yourself, it's as if you would rather Mousavi was in power than Ahmadinejad.

which doctor

27th February 2010, 00:24

So what? You sympathise which is the point, you defend them in almost every way, it's really telling of your politics when you defend Israel but call for the death of the Iranian regime (uncritically supporting the 'green movement') as terrible Islamist reactionaries.
I certainly see the Iranian government as being incredibly reactionary, and wouldn't shed a single tear it it all fell down, but I doubt I've ever called for the death of the Iranian regime, as you seem to suggest. I also don't uncritically support the green movement, mostly because it's such an amorphous and inchoate movement that there's no single green movement politics to criticize. Frankly, I'd like to see them organize behind a Marxist perspective so they could better actually confront the Iranian Government.

So you deny that there is white guilt for "the persecuted Jews" in the West then. Once again, very telling.
I never denied the existence of 'white guilt for the persecuted jews' but frankly I'm confused as to why only white people can feel guilty for them. Can only whites have feelings of guilt? You're the one racializing things here. I asked you to explain what makes you think that I espouse 'typical white zionist guilt,' something which apparently refuse to do.

The 'green movement' in Iran, you consider the whole thing to be socialist and "progressive" as you said yourself, it's as if you would rather Mousavi was in power than Ahmadinejad.
I never said the green movement was socialist, so I don't know why you're putting words into my mouth (though you've been doing that a lot lately), but I do them progressive insofar as they are an example of class consciousness in its embryonic form. Also, another thing which you fail to understand is that the green movement =/= Mousavi.

Wanted Man

27th February 2010, 21:07

What? And when i change my religion then I can talk about Israel? Or is it not my religion, but my wrong "race"?? :blink:
Well the thing is I don't think in the categories like "folk", "race" or "nation". It is stupid to say Israel is the "Land of the Jew(ish folk)" and only they are allowed to talk about it.
Of course it is arrogant to make theories how other should feel, but I don't do so. I just say how antisemitism works, mention that it is a actual danger, and people are protected from antisemitism in Israel.

A lot of anti-zionist Jews would beg to differ, but of course, you know better than them. Well, you don't actually know shit, but you can give it a fancy name and keep repeating that "people are protected from antisemitism in Israel".

It's an unproven assertion. As you can see from the state of Israel right now, Jews aren't particularly safe there. I certainly wouldn't feel safe if I were part of a brutal settler state. More likely, I'd develop a siege mentality and support the state in arming itself to the teeth to crush the enemies who, for some strange reason, don't like being ethnically cleansed.

Or, with a bit of luck, I might read a book and educate myself, desert the army, and get the fuck out of there, which a growing amount of IDF soldiers are doing, thankfully.

Either way, I'm sure meaningless solidarity from a bunch of fuckwits playing at being communists in luxury's lap would be a huge relief, thanks.

It matters. The end of capitalism is also far away, but we talk about it anyway, don't we?

Sure, but in realistic terms. If you want to take "capitalism" instead of "nations", then you can also make up all sorts of idealistic wank to avoid having to engage in any kind of struggle. Say, we want to end exploitation, or racism, or some other aspect of capitalism, but only at the end, so in the meantime, let's not fight exploitation and racism. See, you can justify anything with that line of argument.

Come to think of it, isn't the anti-German line that we must first allow the imperialists to conquer and "develop" every corner of the world that they haven't got yet, because that's the only way the material conditions for revolution can be met?

Just read what I wrote. I support the right to exist and to defend itself. And yes, if it necessary also with weapons.
Concerning the recent "invasions": I prefer Israel in the borders of 1967. I neither support the settlements nor the wall.
I think Israel makes a lot bad things in the military conflict.
But you also have to consider that Israel didn't started the war. And today Israel is attacked by the Hamas, they send rockets to kill isrealic civilians. Israel has to defend itself. Yes I agree, the tactic is wrong, but Israel is not the (only) initiator of this conflict.

So, in plain English, you support both invasions. Well, you don't want to call them invasions. I suppose it would be more realistic to refer to them as the brutal slaughters of civilians that they were.

But hey, who cares, it's just bad tactics, and the Lebanese and Palestinians "started it". A very important distinction for bourgeois legalist hacks, and for the anti-German "left", apparently.

Oh man, come on! Don't make a fool of yourself.

It is a fact that the Pali-Scarf is a symbol of "Palestine Freedom Movement". I don't know much about the situation in the Netherlands or in Turkey, but in Germany it was born by leftwings because of this. Especially in the so called 68-Movement it is worn because they were solidarity with national-movements, for example in Palestine or Kurdistan. Antinationalists/Antigermans (and I) mention that such movements can be regressive, because they are nationalists and folkish. And some of them - like the Palestine-Movement had also antisemitic elements.
Because of this the Pali-Scarf is also worn by Nazis in Germany and criticized by anti-nationalists and antigermans.

Says you. Given Omi's post on the German left, I don't think your "facts" are entirely true. And given your support for the massacre in Lebanon and Gaza, you seem like a habitual bullshitter.

And only because a woman (maybe from Israel, who cares...) wears it, the history and the meaning of the pali-scarf doesn't change.

It's one with an Israeli motif. I thought it was kind of funny.

I didn't read the article in the Bahamas, but when I do so I'll answer you (currently I haven't enough time...)

You go and do that.

Lumpen Bourgeois

27th February 2010, 21:20

I don't know who the situation is for a jew in New York. But are all jews allowed to move to New York and to live there? I don't think so. But they are allowed to move to Israel and live there.

Of course, Israel has "right of return" laws, but that's not the point.

I used New York, with a sizable Jewish population, in my comparison as an example of Jews living in reasonable harmony and safety with an amalgamation of different ethnic groups(which I think helps discredit the Zionist argument that gentiles and Jews cannot live together without major tension). This is unlike in Israel, where Jews are surrounded by somewhat irate Arab populations who aren’t exactly content, we could say, with Israel’s conduct. It’s also a country that is constantly under siege by suicide bombers and the like, as defenders of Israel derive so much pleasure from pointing out.

I just find it a tad ironic how unsafe for Jews this supposed “Jewish safe haven” is.

people are protected from antisemitism in Israel.

Not really.

Anti-semitism In Israel (http://www.pogrom.org.il/eng_articles.php?art_id=1)

Wanted Man

27th February 2010, 21:33

Getting back to the German article that I referred to earlier, I already found it, so bobby can read it right here: http://www.redaktion-bahamas.org/auswahl/web59-2.html

For non-German readers, it is an editorial article in Bahamas called "In the Spirit of Winston Churchill" that hails the English Defence League. As the frontpage (http://redaktion-bahamas.org/index.html) explains it: "Anyone who acts in the spirit of Winston Churchill cannot be a bad person." A brief summary follows (I can read German, but have to strain myself, and I usually cross-check it with a translator - if there are any mistakes, I apologise in advance):

According to the Anti-Germans, the EDL have nothing to do with the BNP or fascism, and they "prove" this by favourably quoting the EDL. It also says that the "British reality" is that the government is "kowtowing to Islam", as proved by the ban on far-right Dutch MP Geert Wilders.

It goes on to say that the EDL only shows the faults of the British left, which has failed to recognise that British nationalism is a good antidote against fascism in general and nazism in particular. According to the anti-Germans, the worst example of this is that the British "left-of-Labour" left has always opposed Winston Churchill, whose "blood, sweat and tears" speech showed that British nationalism and anti-fascism mix well. They favourably quote black and Sikh EDL members who also compare the struggle against Islam to WWII.

Their slight criticism of British nationalism is that it might have blinded the British patriots to Thatcherism, which, they say, cleared the way for Sharia in Britain (anyone still keeping up?).

The next part of the article is an attack on Searchlight and the SWP (fair enough, but hardly relevant), and a long expansion on how the EDL are lovely working-class football-loving lads, Britain's finest, so to speak. This is followed by more criticism of British trotskyism and a more expanded attempt to claim that the EDL are not fascists at all and that they actually hate the BNP and vice versa.

In the notes are some references to Daniel Pipes, Melanie Philips, "Londonistan", etc.

If you can't read German, put it through Google Translate.

Sasha

28th February 2010, 00:45

doesnt suprise me, anti-deutsche jump on any anti-islam bandwagon without informing themselfs one bit.
when i was in dresden last year i didnt know wether to laugh or to cry when i saw that they renamed the street where the autonomus center was "theo van gogh" street.
yes, theo van gogh was slaughterd by an islamic fundamentalist.
but he was also an unrepenting extreme women hater and even an, yes you guessed it, an anti-semite:

Van Gogh also wrote many anti-Semitic articles. In an article in the Amsterdam university magazine Folia in the beginning of the eighties he had Jewish writer Leon de Winter perform the “Treblinka love game” with “a piece of barbed wire” around his “dick”. He also fantasized about “copulating yellow stars in the gas chamber”. In this way he reproduced the anti-Semite myth of the perverse sexual drives, which supposedly completely dominate the Jewish existence. According to Van Gogh, even in the gas chambers this drive got the better of them. He also wrote that Jewish historian Evelien Gans had “wet dreams” about having sex with Mengele. In the anti-Semitic tradition Jews always sought contact with the devil, in this case with the unscrupulous concentration camp doctor.

Van Gogh liked to wrap his anti-Semitism in ‘humor’. For instance, he had Jewish TV talk show host Sonja Barend say outside a camp barrack: “And tomorrow a healthy awakening”. (Which is what she always said at the end of her shows.) He also proposed to make a happy family movie “about a small girl, who, during half of the war, keeps calling the Gestapo: come and get me, come and get me, my dairy is ready!... and they do not come.” He also ‘joked’: “What smells of caramel here? Today they are only burning Jews with diabetes”. (Diabetes is called “sugar disease” in Dutch.) Van Gogh argued that Jews abuse their black past, and wanted to end their “whining” about the Shoah. With this kind of ‘jokes’ he wanted to banalize the concentration camps. But by doing so he cooperated in denying the misery of Auschwitz.quite the hero indeed.

Wanted Man

28th February 2010, 09:37

They also wrote a rather interesting obituary when Van Gogh was killed, which can still be found on the Web Archive (http://web.archive.org/web/20041124225447/http://redaktion-bahamas.org/aktuell/van-Gogh.htm). I tried my hand at translating a part of it, but it's a bit above my head. There is a rather poor Dutch translation as part of a critique of anti-Germans (http://www.xs4all.nl/~afa/alert/artikel/anti.html), which cuts out and misrepresents the worst part to make it sound even more awful, which is hardly necessary IMO.

Here is Google's poor attempt at English for my two "favourite" paragraphs, with some corrections, and my emphases:

Are we not all Islamists?

Theo van Gogh has publicly stated what everyone knows but nobody speaks, because nobody wants to be suspected of being a provocateur who threatens the peaceful coexistence of cultures. Van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - have before them such as Pim Fortuyn - pronounced that in the name of Islam, an increasingly violent foreclosure movement of large parts of migrants takes place from Islamic countries, that in the name of an uncritically held sacred book of dark prohibition - of the Koran - and he overheard a law full of draconian punishments - the Sharia - the license to strike, imprisoning, raping and ultimately will be issued for the killing. It's not the patriarchy, but the ones who, in the name of the holy book sanctioned male dominance, the circumcision of the clitoris, about the forced marriage to the marital rape has everything on offer, from which women and girls working and making sex slaves. It is not the abhorred "Europe's leading culture", which does not exist, in whose name the Muslims in Holland or Germany are mocked and made second-class, nor does it diminish the exercise of religion or the right to wear cultural attributes from their country of origin, as the Islamic and multicultural thinks common sense to know. No, there is an identity-movement that is gaining back promulgated under the slogan "the one true religion 'deepest bondage and where they can, too. With the result that it is not the multicultural society that rules over "the" muslims, but gives the pious continually growing minority of them more and more frustrated men, women and youth the self-chosen and undertakes a mission to be. The contract states that you only cleanses itself, and then his own Umma, which may initially be confined to two or three neighborhoods in The Hague, from all your religion is not in coherence mindlessness. Take not only the right to free speech and to freedom of religion for you to claim, but insists on the preservation of your cultural identity, a right that is not only in Holland unwritten constitutional command, and catch up on what the Islamic group forced to finishing his Members needed: mosques, minarets, preferably with blaring muezzin, Islamic kindergartens, schools, cultural centers and madrassas, and you let the best way to finance the multi-cultural state. Forces in the next step tolerance for your God- and culture-given dealings with women and girls, your God-given abhorrence of homosexuality, free love or pornography, and finally calls by your multicultural alliance partners, which they only too happy to provide: partnership in the global order, the Islamic nations to free it from us, or preferably Zionist-American colonialism.

Keep the provocateur!

All this works wonderfully. Not only in the Netherlands, there seems to be of the opinion that the integration of immigrant newcomer nothing would be more appropriate than willing to provide conditions in which it feels like home. After thirty years, one finds that in fact, many migrants feel at home, not only in the Netherlands, but in the Islamicized neighborhood. In those districts where, as is already the reality in Amsterdam and The Hague, "whites" do not dare set foot at night. So far it is in Germany, therefore, not only because the majority of immigrants from Muslim countries are not as Turks and Moroccans in the Netherlands. That means: Just because've led a Eurocentric provocateur named Kemal Ataturk and his followers in Turkey, a very Western civilization committed cultural war that has torn at least some of Islamic evil from society, and citizens committed to secular values, the Re -Islamization among Turks is still comparatively moderate. At any rate, in comparison with the qua attributed to cultural and racial self-elect in the Islamic world, professing the Arabs, which include groups of devout - not all but pious - Moroccans in the Netherlands are the majority in the Islamic communities.

The funny thing is that it basically reads like a neo-nazi pamphlet, about how whites no longer dare enter certain neighbourhoods because of "Islamisation".

28th February 2010, 12:44

The funny thing is that it basically reads like a neo-nazi pamphlet, about how whites no longer dare enter certain neighbourhoods because of "Islamisation".

The translation is very poor and I am not sure I understand it correctly. But if I’m getting the gist of it, what it seems like to me is that the anti-Germans are disproving part of their own theory about the exceptionalism of anti-Semitism by demonstrating that its perfectly possible for quasi-fascists like themselves to attribute an insane, colossal amount of power and influence to other domestic minorities besides Jews.
I see no reason why anyone would regard them as anything less than fascists.

bobby

28th February 2010, 22:20

It is a funny thing, to have such an analysis of anti-Semitism, and then to completely neglect any analysis of Zionism (when, outside of fantasy land, the two cannot actually be separated, and the latter has a concrete interest in perpetuating the former). The reality is that you can not actually understand the former as it presently exists without analyzing the latter.

What is your definition of Zionism?

I don't know what you mean with Zionism, but I also believe, that there is a relation between Antisemitism and Antizionism.
Antisemitic antizionism begins there, where legitimate and profunding criticism ends.

You don't actually have any idea or concern that when a murderous imperialist state founded on ethnic cleansing claims to …

Yes yes yes....Israel is the devil on earth, its only will is to hurt, murder, rule, eat,... (tbc) the poor little and harmless Palistine.
I can't hear this shit anymore.... -.-

But again, I don't believe for a second that you people actually give a shit about anti-Semitism; it is just a political bludgeon that you use in order to justify your support for imperialism.
//
I already found it, so bobby can read it right here:
//
Anti-deutschism is utterly moronic and pro-imperialist and you, which doctor, you seem to be upholding this, so be aware of what you are supporting: imperialism.

Do you know what (one of yours) problem is? You only see black and white, good and bad, friend and enemy. Once learned that the USA, Israel and the rich people are evil and all the poor ones, all fighting against the USA and “the bad guys” are good you can't rethink it. If somebody scrutinize this sinmpliefied view of the world and is not strictly against everything us-american he or she has to be a supporter of Imperialism, a Racist,....a traitor and one of the bad guys.

This Stalinist bullshit makes me sick...

And the racist characteristics of the Israeli state - which is a white nationalist regime - defines it as an enemy of leftists the world over.

Quite interesting that you use a skin-color for argumentation. Ohh... I forgot... “white-skin”-people are on the “bad-guys”-side...
Israel is not a regime, it is one of a few democracies and nearly the only place in the Middle East where gays, political- and religious dissidents are (more or less) safe.

You think that US and Israeli military aggression are somehow more progressive than popular resistance. For what reason?

Military aggression is never progressive. But sometimes sadly necessary. But when the so called “resistance” wants to “push the Jews in the ocean”, kills gays and domineer over woman, than the last think I would do is to show solidarity to them...

Regardless of that, I don't think you are even right in your own terms. Israel is not some 'poor little country' being victimised, but a major regional power[/QUOTE]

Its power makes somebody neither bad nor good. “Poor little” people can also have regressive ambitions, and “major regional power” can (theoretical) also do something good.
The number of its weapons is no argument for or against someone.

Says you. Given Omi's post on the German left, I don't think your "facts" are entirely true. And given your support for the massacre in Lebanon and Gaza, you seem like a habitual bullshitter.

And you are a dumb, dogmatic kid, if you need insults instead of arguments.

I wear one because it stops my ears getting cold in the winter. It is a common item of clothing in our country. I don't in anyway support Palestinian or Kurdish nationalism.

I never said all the People which wear this scarf are nationalist. I only said it is forbidden in some radical-left places in germany, because of its history and meaning (in the left-scene in germany). I have a lot of friends which are wearing it as well...

I also feel that you are completely missing the point about racism in Germany today. When I was there last year it was "Türken Raus", not "Jüden Raus" that I saw written on the walls.

I would never challenge this racism. But “Juden Raus” (“Jews out of here”) is normally not racism, but antisemitism.

No it's not. Only a very small fragment of the radical left movement in germany are anti-germans. I've visited numerous squats where there was no anti-german presence at all, and a lot of people I've met there rejected the ideology. I think it depends on the groups you hang around with...
Furthermore, the anti-germans where a bigger force a few years back, but a lot of kids grew up, and there is also a large segment of hardcore-anti's who visited Israel, saw for themselves what ''jewish self defense'' looks like, and soon dropped the whole thing.

Okay. I think you don't rad my post well. I never said, that there are a lot of “antigermans” in Germany.
A few years ago – you are right – there were “a lot of”(but still a minority) Kids wearing Israel-scarfes and Israel-flags, saying that they love the Mossad and the IDF.... etc. etc.
This causes a huge discussion in Germany. Actually this fanatic crowd is really rare.
But the antigerman influences remains in Germany. As I wrote nearly non of this “antigerman” groups, calls theirself “antigerman”.
And yes, I guess in a lot of squats in Germany you would not only get problems with a pali-scarf, but also with a Israel-Button. (But the squats I visited in Erfurt, Weimar, Leipzig, Jena you don't get problems with Israel-Stuff, I guess in Berlin it is different)
But all Antifa-Groups I know in Germany show solidarity with Israel, are anti-national, anti-folkish and against Islamism.
I remember – nearly a year ago there was a trouble with a group called “Rote Antifa” (Red Antifa), which is a clear antiimperialistic, anti-antigerman and worker-class group. There was a huge campaign against this group in Germany and there was also a campaign against a concert of a antiimperialist HipHoper called “Die Bandbreite” in a left place in Berlin. The concert was canceled and the “Red Antifa” is (more or less) isolated in Germany. I guess this shows a little bit the influence of antigerman ideas and theories in Germany.

I just find it a tad ironic how unsafe for Jews this supposed “Jewish safe haven” is.
| | people are protected from antisemitism in Israel.
Not really.
*link*Anti-semitism In Israel*link*
Okay. There is also Antisemitism in Israel and yes – you are right – people in Israel are dangered by militant islamic terrorist shooting rockets every day to Israel. Israel is in war, of course are the Israelic people not safe. But what is your conclusion? Israel is founded to be a safe place for jews and know it is not safe (enogh). So lets disband Israel or what? What do you think will happen with the jewish people if from one day to the next the israelic army and state disappears? Antisemitism will end and all the people in the Middle East will live in peace an harmony??

For communists the question is not which side starts bourgeois wars. Wars are started by capitalism. It is not a question of looking and trying to decided which individual state is the 'aggressor' and then supporting its opponents.

I don't think it is that easy. Of course there a lot of wars because of capitalistic reasons, for example to get Resources.
But the Israel-Palestine conflict is not because of a resource-conflict.
The conflict starts, as Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordanian, Iraq and palistine militias attacked Israel because of they do not wanted to live next to a “jewish state”.

| | Antinationalists/Antigermans (and I) mention that such movements can be regressive, because they are nationalists and folkish
unlike israel.

Yes. The solidarity with Palestine, Kurdia, etc. is because of the folkish thinking, that every “race” needs its nation.
The solidarity with Israel outcomes with the Idea of a protected area for all the people, who are dangered by antisemitism.

The fact that you reject "folk" ideologies is rather interesting. I took a cursory glance at 'folk' insofar as it pertains to German history, and it basically represents populism.

No it doesn't. I'm sorry that I have not enough time to explain it in english. But in a few words: “Folk” means the Idea that people are definitely and for their whole live divided by birth into different groups (folks), which have their own language, culture, and nation.
But people are individuals. It is a kind of racism (Ethnopluralism, racism without races) to force the people be part (or not be part) of a special “folk”.

doesnt suprise me, anti-deutsche jump on any anti-islam bandwagon without informing themselfs one bit.

I guess you are the one, that is not informed. Mabye there are some anti-islamic guys calling thereselfes “antigerman”, I never met one and I don't care.
But the most “antigerman” called communists are not against Islam, but against political Islamism/ Islamic fundamentalism.

The Iran-west conflict is a particularly glaring example of this nonsense.

There is not only a Iran-West conflict, there is also a conflict between the iraniq dictatorship and the weman, gays, and disidents who are struggeling for freedom in Iran.

It's pretty clear that you've fully swallowed the neoliberal attitude towards "expansion of democracy,"

Yes, I believe that democracy is better than religious dictatorship.

.

Wanted Man

28th February 2010, 23:02

Still wondering about bobby's opinion on the English Defence League, on Theo van Gogh, about how the bloody foreigners are taking Dutch soil from its inhabitants, etc. Everything can be read online, no need to pull old copies from your archives. :)

Yes yes yes....Israel is the devil on earth, its only will is to hurt, murder, rule, eat,... (tbc) the poor little and harmless Palistine.
I can't hear this shit anymore.... -.-

Do you know what (one of yours) problem is? You only see black and white, good and bad, friend and enemy. Once learned that the USA, Israel and the rich people are evil and all the poor ones, all fighting against the USA and “the bad guys” are good you can't rethink it. If somebody scrutinize this sinmpliefied view of the world and is not strictly against everything us-american he or she has to be a supporter of Imperialism, a Racist,....a traitor and one of the bad guys.

This Stalinist bullshit makes me sick...

All of this is projection. You're summarising your own line of argument, except one would have to substitute a few country names. Nobody else is arguing along the lines of evil, bad guys, etc., so that makes it even more glaring.

Quite interesting that you use a skin-color for argumentation. Ohh... I forgot... “white-skin”-people are on the “bad-guys”-side...
Israel is not a regime, it is one of a few democracies and nearly the only place in the Middle East where gays, political- and religious dissidents are (more or less) safe.

Here's the kicker: "anti-national" bobby defending white supremacism. :)

Military aggression is never progressive. But sometimes sadly necessary. But when the so called “resistance” wants to “push the Jews in the ocean”, kills gays and domineer over woman, than the last think I would do is to show solidarity to them...

Its power makes somebody neither bad nor good. “Poor little” people can also have regressive ambitions, and “major regional power” can (theoretical) also do something good.
The number of its weapons is no argument for or against someone.

Pure emotional crap from someone who claims to be a critical, thinking, non-dogmatic communist. It's no different from posting pictures of dead Palestinian children to end the discussion.

You're suggesting that Israel's aggression should be supported because it offers a safe place for Jews in the Middle-East (like white-only compounds in South Africa offered a safe place for whites in Africa), and every act of resistance should be roundly condemned because some (!) of them have "regressive ambitions".

Basically, it's a wafer-thin attempt to justify what goes on. I don't normally try to predict things, but I can say with some safety that you'll be arguing that "Palestinians are not a real people anyway" before the week is through. We've heard the same bullshit from Israeli apologists countless times, but most of them are at least honest enough to join the Conservative Party or whatever.

And you are a dumb, dogmatic kid, if you need insults instead of arguments.

Okay. :lol: Your opinion on Palestine is worth as much as a neo-nazi's opinion on Jews. Nazi holocaust deniers also scream that they are being unfairly attacked, and that their arguments need to be heard in an open and pluriform society, but anyone with half a brain can see through it, just like you are transparent to most people here.

Bobby on the slogan: "Türken Raus":

I would never challenge this racism.

I'm not surprised. :lol: (yes, I know, it's a mistake because of the language barrier - still, it's unintentionally and hilariously telling; bobby and his ilk are indeed soft on (some would say 'supportive of') racism against people from Islamic countries, as you can see in the two editorials)

But the Israel-Palestine conflict is not because of a resource-conflict.
The conflict starts, as Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordanian, Iraq and palistine militias attacked Israel because of they do not wanted to live next to a “jewish state”.

Really? Nothing happened before that? Israel was there all along, just minding its own business until the Arabic hordes came pouring in? Sounds like someone missed a few History classes.

Yes. The solidarity with Palestine, Kurdia, etc. is because of the folkish thinking, that every “race” needs its nation.
The solidarity with Israel outcomes with the Idea of a protected area for all the people, who are dangered by antisemitism.

So, the same thing, just wrapped in euphemistic terms. I want a protected area for all Kurds, who are endangered by anti-Kurdish sentiment. Now what? (My guess: "The Holocaust was a unique act of industrial genocide, therefore all of Israel's actions today are justified.")

No it doesn't. I'm sorry that I have not enough time to explain it in english. But in a few words: “Folk” means the Idea that people are definitely and for their whole live divided by birth into different groups (folks), which have their own language, culture, and nation.
But people are individuals. It is a kind of racism (Ethnopluralism, racism without races) to force the people be part (or not be part) of a special “folk”.

What, like Israeli Jews?

I guess you are the one, that is not informed. Mabye there are some anti-islamic guys calling thereselfes “antigerman”, I never met one and I don't care.
But the most “antigerman” called communists are not against Islam, but against political Islamism/ Islamic fundamentalism.

Ah okay, that explains everything (http://www.redaktion-bahamas.org/auswahl/web59-2.html) (http://web.archive.org/web/20041124225447/http://redaktion-bahamas.org/aktuell/van-Gogh.htm) :)

Wanted Man

28th February 2010, 23:13

The translation is very poor and I am not sure I understand it correctly. But if I’m getting the gist of it, what it seems like to me is that the anti-Germans are disproving part of their own theory about the exceptionalism of anti-Semitism by demonstrating that its perfectly possible for quasi-fascists like themselves to attribute an insane, colossal amount of power and influence to other domestic minorities besides Jews.
I see no reason why anyone would regard them as anything less than fascists.

It's not that acute. They do accept that it's not "the muslims" (a meaningless concession that even the radical-right allows), but they do argue that the only people who are responsible for the fact that muslim immigrants in the Netherlands are treated like second-class citizens are "pious muslims" who don't want to assimilate (if you read the first translated paragraph, "Are we not all Islamists?" while cutting through the euphemistic bullshit that they use to try and sound less extreme).

So, basically, all the things that are being suggested by all right-wing radicals that are not explicitly fascist. A huge relief! :rolleyes: The second paragraph is even better, because it accuses immigrants of "Islamisising" neighbourhoods and driving "whites" away. Which is further than what the mainstream radical-right would suggest, and which only Dutch neo-nazis would support.

Dean

1st March 2010, 23:27

Quite interesting that you use a skin-color for argumentation. Ohh... I forgot... “white-skin”-people are on the “bad-guys”-side...
Actually, I was not the one who designated Israel to be a white nationalist regime. It is those who defined the state on ethnic grounds, expelled the ethnic minorities, and perpetuate a system wherein Jews from Africa are frequently denied the "birthright"of Israeli citizenship.

Everything from the foundation of the state, which was in anti-indigenous economic and political violence, to the culmination of contemporary Israeli politics, is fundamentally defined by the expulsion of non-Jews from the goods of citizenship, economic equality, resources and political power. What is worse is that this could be said even in absence of the racism committed in the occupation and attacks on the WB and Gaza.

Israel is not a regime, it is one of a few democracies and nearly the only place in the Middle East where gays, political- and religious dissidents are (more or less) safe.
Despite your non-sequitors, I really had to point this out. Since when is Israel not a regime?

Your ignorance is unbelievable, but in the context of your political analysis, which lacks even a rudimentary understanding of so many historical facts, it is understandable.

Your problem, and this applies to people like ComradeMan and other racists who have graced our forums, is that your worldview is hopelessly tied into an acute acceptance of capitalist propaganda, right up to and including the Holocaust-Israel line of defense for racist Imperialism.

The conclusion of any reasonable analysis is not some defense of Iranian or PA racism / homophobia, but the fact that you consistently fall back on attacks on these lines of argument makes it very clear that you have an incredibly immaterial, dogmatic analysis of the issue.

Instead of finding a reasonable, left wing perspective, you actively abandon any notion of self-determinism or justice for the Palestinian people. The very fact that you view this as a necessary character of your pro-racist agenda makes it incredibly clear how absolutely delusional, and frankly quite a bigot you are.

Omi

2nd March 2010, 15:18

Sasha

2nd March 2010, 16:46

Israel [...] is one of a few democracies

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/857766.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054867.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/mar/01/israel

and nearly the only place in the Middle East where gays,

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/872873.html

political-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/12/israel-bans-arab-parties-_n_157207.html

and religious dissidents

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/835392.html

are (more or less) safe.

pull
head
out
arse

Dimentio

2nd March 2010, 19:58

While this discussion is soon moot, I'm curious of hearing Bobby's opinion on the operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Dean

2nd March 2010, 20:28

While this discussion is soon moot, I'm curious of hearing Bobby's opinion on the operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I'm sure they're necessary evils. :rolleyes:

cmdrdeathguts

4th March 2010, 00:18

I'll do a proper reply later, interesting stuff (w.d. also) but...

There is no "hatred". There is only the the criticism of Nation, Folk and specific post-fascistic elements in german nationalism.

Uh, "Bomber Harris, do it again!"? "Deutschland nie wieder!"? We can quibble about the semantics of "hatred", but, I have to say that you lot live up to your name well...

Sasha

6th March 2010, 19:19

what to think of this gem:
"Bomber Harris flächenbrand, Holland einig ackerland!"?

although this one is pretty funny:
"Stalingrad war wunderbar, Nazi-Opa blieb gleich da!"