Are the classical marxist class lines outdated?

[Dr Mindbender]

I think the modern age and technological advances have heralded changes in our relationship between class and the means of production. For example, thanks to the internet, it is no longer necessary to own both a factory and employ a vast workforce to live outside the wage system. What does it mean to be bourgeoisie or petit bourgeoisie in the 21st century?

I think this is an important question because people explaining communism to people today we need to know what the differences are.

[Decolonize The Left]

I think the modern age and technological advances have heralded changes in our relationship between class and the means of production. For example, thanks to the internet, it is no longer necessary to own both a factory and employ a vast workforce to live outside the wage system. What does it mean to be bourgeoisie or petit bourgeoisie in the 21st century?

I think this is an important question because people explaining communism to people today we need to know what the differences are.

I keep it simple: Do you work for a living? Do you labor for a wage? Working class.

The internet does not blur the lines of class because class is a relationship to the means of production, not an idea.

- August

[Dr Mindbender]

I keep it simple: Do you work for a living? Do you labor for a wage? Working class.


This definition is misleading though. A small business person might labour for themselves and not employ anyone, but they live entirely off their own profits rather than a fixed wage dictated by the government and the decency of an employer. They're certainly not working class by any measure. Definitely not in the same way as an employed factory worker.


The internet does not blur the lines of class because class is a relationship to the means of production, not an idea.
I was only using the internet as an example technology that has shifted the class boundaries. Robotics might be another one. I think it's naive to deny that there has been no change to the class structure as a result of new technologies. Dot com website owners whose operations run entirely on cyberspace have become as influential and as powerful as large companies set up IRL.

[Martin Blank]

This definition is misleading though. A small business person might labour for themselves and not employ anyone, but they live entirely off their own profits rather than a fixed wage dictated by the government and the decency of an employer. They're certainly not working class by any measure. Definitely not in the same way as an employed factory worker.

True, and such people (small business owners) have been defined as petty bourgeois since long before the Internet.


I was only using the internet as an example technology that has shifted the class boundaries. Robotics might be another one. I think it's naive to deny that there has been no change to the class structure as a result of new technologies. Dot com website owners whose operations run entirely on cyberspace have become as influential and as powerful as large companies set up IRL.

There is some truth to what you're saying. Every advance in technology does tend to "move the goalposts" on what particular occupations are considered working class or not, productive or unproductive labor, etc. The difference, however, is in the various and sundry forms that the means of production and distribution take, not in its fundamental content.

[Jimmie Higgins]

The powers of the internet to change the nature of society have always been overstated - particularly on the internet. Internet phenoms like Amazon or Netflix have actually just created shifts in the workforce: brought more people into shipping and warehouse jobs even if they have eliminated many retail jobs.

The telephone and the electrical grid were huge advances like the internet and they did not change the nature of the system - they just changed the way business could be done.
Relations are always kind of in flux in capitalism, but I think actually the trend - at least in the US - has been toward more people becoming proletariat rather than professionals or small business people.