anti-germans ban Oi-Polloi show

[Sasha]

dont forget to pick up your jaw after you dropped it: http://www.indymediascotland.org/node/17997

[Pirate Utopian]

I hope Malte's happy.

I also fail to see what's so leftist about the anti-deutsche, with their support for the US and Israel they must not have the faintest clue about real leftism.

[bcbm]

but the usa beat the nazis and israel protects the jews from another holocaust, you see.

[Sasha]

I hope Malte's happy.

I also fail to see what's so leftist about the anti-deutsche, with their support for the US and Israel they must not have the faintest clue about real leftism.

but there is/was a problem with anti-semitism in anti-imperialist leftism (true) so we must fight leftist antisemitism (true) and germany shouldnt have been reunited because that was an guarantee it wouldnt start an 3th world war (kinda true although the cold war was partly fought in germany) kibutzim/labour-zionism is influenced by communism (true) and so with the failure of communism in the east the only guarantee for preventing another holocaust is supporting israel (batshit crazy) and the only thing keeping israel israel is america's support so we must support america against the enemy's of israel ie the muslims (even crazy'r).
oh, and waiving royal air force/israeli flags and shouting about bomber harris pisses of the nazi's like no tomorow and thats fun (true)

[ls]

That's a really, shitty thing to do by those "anti-german germans".

[revolution inaction]

I hope Malte's happy.

I also fail to see what's so leftist about the anti-deutsche, with their support for the US and Israel they must not have the faintest clue about real leftism.

What isn't leftist about supporting one state against another and when people disagree and points out your favoured state oppresses the working class, calling them racist and accusing them of supporting extreme nationalism?

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

To be fair though oi polloi are shit.

[Stand Your Ground]

To be fair though oi polloi are shit.
Hey I like Oi Polloi. :(

[Wanted Man]

It was quite thoughtful of them to respond so well to all those questions, considering the kind of shit that was being flung at them. Nobody with half a brain would have blamed them if they had said, "Look mate, we don't have to listen to this Spanish Inquisition crap. If you can't handle being criticised for carrying 'Death to the Fascho-islamic Palestinians' placards, we'll just take our 'anti-semitic' business elsewhere."

But they didn't, and instead they crafted a good response, and got the ridiculous ban revoked. I guess they don't want to let a bunch of idiots prevent them from having a nice gig for the ones who do appreciate it. Fair play to them.

EDIT: also:


What we find puzzling though is that judging by some of the criticism, hostility and on occasion outright violence (once in Bremen when we played a song in Gaelic our guitarist at the time was hit in her face by a bottle for being a "fucking Scottish nationalist" - she was actually a Polish anarchist) that we've had from so many "Anti-Germans" as a result of our support for minority languages like Gaelic it looks as if, to be consistent, the "Anti-German" position on Sorbisch would be that people should stop using it and should all speak Hochdeutsch instead! Kind of ironic. We hope that isn't the case. We would be interested to know your position at KTS on this and whether you would discriminate against a band singing in Sorbisch - would you really prefer them to sing in Hochdeutsch instead?
(emphasis mine)

The left can be so full of fucking pricks sometimes!

[Edelweiss]

Unlike my anti-German reputation here on Revleft, I do like actually Oi-Polloi and have see them live many times. The singers great announcements in perfect German with his funny accent are a highlight every time again. Damn, I have a poster of them hanging in my apartment.... :)

Ironically I once experienced Oi-Polloi burning a German flag at one of their shows (during the world cup) and some drunken, German football loving punk jumped at the stage trying to prevent it. The singer didn't hesitate and second a punched the idiot right in face. After that, he got kicked by the audience as well. :D

Props for Oi-Polloi for their excellent responses (I agree with at least 90% of it), especially for statements like this:


We're talking about people like the neo-fascist National Front and on the left wing parties like the odious Socialist Workers Party who were notorious for their opposition to physical confrontation of fascists or the so-called Revolutionary Communist Party who had such policies as support for nuclear power "as long as it is under workers' control" and a belief that "homosexuality is a product of decadent capitalism that will disappear after the revolution" - that's obviously not the kind of revolution that we want any part of.


Once again ironically, the song those anti-Germans are complaining about is directed at those who they hate most, it's those who made the whole anti-German phenomenon possible and IMO somehow justified: Hardcore, borderline anti-semitic, "Antiimps", authoritarian communitsts, of the SWP and alike of whose endless stupidity and ignorance we are experiencing here day by day.

[Ravachol]

but there is/was a problem with anti-semitism in anti-imperialist leftism (true)


The whole anti-impie position is bullshit yes, as examplified by the ridiculous positions of Maoism-Third Worldism. I support some struggles of national liberaton, but the lengths to which some anti-impies go are completely batshit insane (defending Idi Amin, Sadam Hussein, Pol Pot's policies,etc).



germany shouldnt have been reunited because that was an guarantee it wouldnt start an 3th world war (kinda true although the cold war was partly fought in germany)


I strongly disagree with the notions that form the basis of that 'bring the wall back' logic. It often ammounts to assumptions 'German culture' is 'intrinsically' anti-semitic and imperialist, a ridiculously homogenic identity-politics position.



kibutzim/labour-zionism is influenced by communism (true)


To a degree. But the same goes for the PFLP (which is more influenced by communism actually). That logic leads us nowhere. Labour-Zionism is a dead end, Zionism (which I define as the movement seeking to Establish a state around the Jewish Identity in the area covering contemporary Israel and Palestine) itself is imperialist and follows exclusion-based nationalist logic. Obviously Jews have the right to live in that area, just like they have the right to live anywhere. 'Palestinian' movements seeking to bar Jews from living in Palestine or treating them as second-class citizens are no better imo. That is, however, no excuse for zionism of any kind.



oh, and waiving royal air force/israeli flags and shouting about bomber harris pisses of the nazi's like no tomorow and thats fun (true)

Yes and it also serves the cause of internationalist class-struggle no good.



(emphasis mine)

The left can be so full of fucking pricks sometimes!

Sadly, yes. But that's mainly the result of 'lifestylist' and undereducated 'activist' (for whom activism is a goal and not a means) elements in the movement. I'm accused of elitism at times because of this but I couldn't care less, activism is to serve a purpose and not a hobby-desire.


As for Oi Polloi, I love the band, it's great music and great fun live.
I must say I detest the song 'commies and nazis' though. It's an example of the reproduction of the bourgoisie notion of the 'extremism construct' first of all ignoring the diffuse nature of 'communism' (and it's Libertarian and Anarchist permutations as well) and secondly equating Authoritarian Communism with Fascism, which is, politically, historically and practically speaking a complete joke. It's an infantile position that serves nobody but the bourgoisie 'extremism construct' thesis.

[Edelweiss]

I must say I detest the song 'commies and nazis' though. It's an example of the reproduction of the bourgoisie notion of the 'extremism construct' first of all ignoring the diffuse nature of 'communism' (and it's Libertarian and Anarchist permutations as well) and secondly equating Authoritarian Communism with Fascism, which is, politically, historically and practically speaking a complete joke. It's an infantile position that serves nobody but the bourgoisie 'extremism construct' thesis.

I agree, and it seems Oi-Polloi has come to thos conclusion as well:


However the very fact that you - and some others in the past - asked this question shows that the song was open to misinterpretation. Bearing this in mind and the fact that we would never want to give out a message that the unique crimes of national socialism are somehow comparable to some communist groups we understand that we didn't express ourselves as well as we should have here. This was also a particular concern since,as we've explained in another answer, we've always taken a non-sectarian approach to fighting fascism, putting other political differences to one side in order to form a united front against the fascists and we didn't want to encourage hostility to any genuine leftwing group prepared to put their money where their mouths are and get out on the street to take the fascists on. As a result, having realised we'd made a mistake, we took the decision a long time ago not to play the song ever again. We never have and we never will - and incidentally this is somewhat old news as that decision was taken OVER TWENTY YEARS AGO!

[Wanted Man]

Once again ironically, the song those anti-Germans are complaining about is directed at those who they hate most, it's those who made the whole anti-German phenomenon possible and IMO somehow justified: Hardcore, borderline anti-semitic, "Antiimps", authoritarian communitsts, of the SWP and alike of whose endless stupidity and ignorance we are experiencing here day by day.

Wasn't the anti-German thing made possible and "justified" by resurgent German nationalism after 1989?

[Dimentio]

It seems like the Anti-Germans believe in some kind of almost "biologically driven" unique German exceptionalism to do evil.

[Edelweiss]

Wasn't the anti-German thing made possible and "justified" by resurgent German nationalism after 1989?

well not only. It was of course also a reaction to a new German nationalism after 1989 and fears of new German super power fantasies. But it was also a reaction and result of a reflection to the anti-Zionist, and often anti-Semitic excesses and the entire uncritical support of the Palestinian resistance by the leftist anti-imperialist camp of the 1970s and 80s. At least for me the anti-German movement, despite being a complete pain in the ass, was in that regard like a cleaning thunderstorm to the German Left. Even if they are completely paranoid about anti-Semitism, and often their accusations are completely absurd, like in the case of Oi-Polloi, I think their overdone cautiousness of anti-semitism is better than the entirely unreflected stance that is being held by large parts of today's anti-imperialist, Leninist Left.

[Edelweiss]

It seems like the Anti-Germans believe in some kind of almost "biologically driven" unique German exceptionalism to do evil.

anti-german put it a bit more coherent:

Against the ignorance of an alienated world that not only created Auschwitz but also a mentality of people that, instead of intervening, looked on as their neighbours were being murdered in the gas-chambers, Theodor W. Adorno formulated a new categorical imperative: It demands that everything has to be done, so that Auschwitz or anything similar may never happen again. But as long as there exist the concepts of state, capital, nation and a specific coldness of the modern subject, i.e. the social foundations that made Auschwitz possible, we can never be sure that such an insane mass murder will not happen again.

Especially this fact made a re-formulation of anti-national theory necessary. Even though nationalism, racism and antisemitism are universal phenomena, to be found to a certain extent everywhere in the world, it is undeniable that they became nowhere else as murderous as in Germany. So when anti-national means the abolishment of all nation-states, anti-German means that all nation-states should be abolished, but Germany – the origin of an unprecedented mass-murder – should be the first and Israel as the refuge of the surviving victims of German atrocities the last nation-state to vanish (and should decide for itself).

http://bikinibottom.blogsport.de/2007/03/01/who-are-the-anti-germans/ (<- generally a good read to learn about anti-German theory, there generally seems to be a lot of ignorance here on this matter).

[Ravachol]

well not only. It was of course also a reaction to a new German nationalism after 1989 and fears of new German super power fantasies.


This i can understand, but I fail to see how this would be a typically 'German' phenomenon or why this is even linked to the concept of 'Germany'. The whole anti-deutsche phenomenon seems to reproduce the concept of 'Germany' more than it does to destroy it.



But it was also a reaction and result of a reflection to the anti-Zionist, and often anti-Semitic excesses and the entire uncritical support of the Palestinian resistance by the leftist anti-imperialist camp of the 1970s and 80s.


I agree with this and I'm rather fierce on the subject myself as well. I detest the mindless third-worldist anti-impie position. But I fail to see how supporting an imperialist bourgoisie nation-state and it's even worse allies (the US) is gonna solve anything really.



I think their overdone cautiousness of anti-semitism is better than the entirely unreflected stance that is being held by large parts of today's anti-imperialist, Leninist Left.

Partially, cautiousness should also be taken not to devolve in the opposite direction either, which happened to the anti-deutsche.



Theodor W. Adorno formulated a new categorical imperative: It demands that everything has to be done, so that Auschwitz or anything similar may never happen again.


This kind of logic is very prevalent in the left and although not always the case, to many activists the scream 'DO ANYTHING' implies literally 'anything', without critical evaluation and it's relation to the larger struggle ahead. Weird moves can be made following this logic, one example is the anti-D embrace of Zionism another the anti-imp embrace of anti-semitic reactionary 'liberation' *cough* movements.



But as long as there exist the concepts of state, capital, nation and a specific coldness of the modern subject, i.e. the social foundations that made Auschwitz possible, we can never be sure that such an insane mass murder will not happen again.


This is true, but I do not see how some hardline anti-D's fail to recognize this tendency within Zionism as well. Zionism, especially pseudo-ethnic Zionism operates according to the same logic as any exclusion-based ethno-nationalist movement. A logic that leads to dehumanisation and industrial-scale genocide.



Especially this fact made a re-formulation of anti-national theory necessary. Even though nationalism, racism and antisemitism are universal phenomena, to be found to a certain extent everywhere in the world, it is undeniable that they became nowhere else as murderous as in Germany.


Despite the fact that this is not completely true (Rwanda was pretty shocking as well), the Holocaust was indeed a unique event in history. The theoretical mistake to make here is to assume it was a specifically GERMAN phenomenon. It was a phenomenon resulting from material and social conditions at the time, which happened to be configured the worst in Germany. Claiming it could ONLY have happened in Germany is mystical bullshit.



but Germany – the origin of an unprecedented mass-murder –


Origin does not imply causality. Deconstructing this arguments lays bare the naked notion that the holocaust was INTRINSICALLY 'German'. An argument which is itself homogenizing and which reproduces the notion of 'Germany' as a monolithic homogenic 'culture'. It's logic is rooted in the same flawed logic that underlies the idea of 'national unity'. Nation is a social construct, nothing else. There is no such thing as 'intrinsic' characteristics of a said nation. The entire argument is unstable.



should be the first and Israel as the refuge of the surviving victims of German atrocities the last nation-state to vanish


And this is why? Not only does this, again, reproduce the concept of nation, it homogenizes hordes of people, working class and bourgoisie, along 'national' lines according to a flawed accusation of 'intrinsic evil'.

Even if this were true (which it most certainly is not) the fact that some holocaust survivors migrated towards Israel does not say anything about the social construct that is 'Israel'. There is bourgoisie and working class in the Israel of today and I couldn't give two shits about the former. Reproducing the concept of 'National Unity' with a base in a shared experience (Ie. the Holocaust) is really the same logic of the 'National Myth' that serves as the supposed founding base of modern-day nation-states. The 'Arminius rebelled against the Romans and gave us our collective freedom through Germany'-myth doesn't differ that much from 'We survived the Holocaust and guarantee our collective freedom through Israel'.

If we want to prevent something like the holocaust from happening again we have to fight precisely this logic (and in the case of the holocaust, anti-semitism as well).



(and should decide for itself).


They can't be serious. A nation-state, a construct of complex dominant power relations intertwined with bourgoisie domination and it's logic optimizing exploitation of the working class is hardly gonna dissolve itself now is it.

Also the 'it' (Israel) the quote is referring to is a reproduction of the concept of 'National Unity' again, there is no 'Israel' that speaks with a collective voice. There is working class and there is bourgoisie.

[Delenda Carthago]

I hate anti-deutch to the core...