Prisons and communism

[gorillafuck]

Since communism's goal is a stateless society, I've been wondering, how will things like prisons be dealt with? Since abolishing the state would mean abolishing prisons, but obviously violent crime will always be around (due to crimes of passion, not all crime is economically motivated) what sort of method of rehabilitation would be used in place of them? I'm skeptical about the idea of abolishing prisons altogether.

Edit: I just realized how terribly vague a title this is, could it be changed to "Prisons and communism"?

[Zanthorus]

Since abolishing the state would mean abolishing prisons.

No it wouldn't :confused:

Or at least it wouldn't have to. Who says their couldn't be community run prisons?

Don't get confused with what the state tells you it does and what it actually is. Most of the minor things the state does like crime prevention are just functions that it took over from primitive communal organisations that did the same thing in order to disguise it's true nature as an instrument of class oppression :)

EDIT: Although I'd add that some form of punishment such as denyal of certain services or forcing the offender to perform extra services for the community might work better in more minor cases instead of just locking them up.

[Sasha]

Edit: I just realized how terribly vague a title this is, could it be changed to "Prisons and communism"?

fixed

[Durruti's Ghost]

I don't think that a stateless society necessarily implies the abolition of prisons as a means of punishing crime. However, I do think that we should consider the possibility that punishment itself should be abolished not as an essential quality of a stateless society, but merely as a method of dealing with crime that has shown itself to be ineffective. In practice, this would mean devoting resources to the development of the field of applied psychology and, by extension, psychiatry. I think it is fair to say that the causes of 90% of crimes (i.e., the percentage that is composed of property crimes) are purely social and the result of the existence of private property, and that the remaining 10% (violent crimes) are the result of a combination of social factors and individual psychological problems. Once the social factors are eliminated, all that remains are the individual psychological factors, which--with enough research--can most likely be treated. In extreme cases, this treatment would involve institutionalization, which could be considered a form of imprisonment; however, this imprisonment would be undertaken with the goal of ultimately releasing the prisoner, having rehabilitated him/her.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Why not the abolition of prisons? When money is eliminated, which is what takes place within a communist system, then there'd be no need for laws such as stealing, & we could build a transportational-system using resources instead of money that could eliminate the use of traffic laws. Violent crimes is even connected to money, somewhat. But also, we have the capabilities to find violent offenders now through brain-studies. It was shown through a study of the top 70 serial killers that all 70 had frontal lobe damage (http://socyberty.com/crime/a-killer-brain-a-look-inside-serial-killers/). What the frontal lobe damage does is prevent a person from knowing right from wrong & making logical actions. If we could initiate these kind of studies world-wide, we could help those that have that kind of damage instead of just giving up on them & locking them up for life. Violent crimes consist of rape, murder, abuse, etc. So those laws, with traffic laws & robbery laws would initially be eliminated & replaced with a rehabilitation program. And for those that seem to be harder to rehabilitate, then we could simply do what Norway is doing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGTzbj3fRSw). There's no need for prisons.

[ellipsis]

There is a prison on la isla de los pinos which is almost identical to Foucault's panopticon. sorry for the high res wikipedia pic.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Presidio-modelo2.JPG

[CELMX]

I don't think that a stateless society necessarily implies the abolition of prisons as a means of punishing crime. However, I do think that we should consider the possibility that punishment itself should not be abolished not as an essential quality of a stateless society, but merely as a method of dealing with crime that has shown itself to be ineffective. In practice, this would mean devoting resources to the development of the field of applied psychology and, by extension, psychiatry. I think it is fair to say that the causes of 90% of crimes (i.e., the percentage that is composed of property crimes) are purely social and the result of the existence of private property, and that the remaining 10% (violent crimes) are the result of a combination of social factors and individual psychological problems. Once the social factors are eliminated, all that remains are the individual psychological factors, which--with enough research--can most likely be treated. In extreme cases, this treatment would involve institutionalization, which could be considered a form of imprisonment; however, this imprisonment would be undertaken with the goal of ultimately releasing the prisoner, having rehabilitated him/her.

Yes, I definitely agree with all that you say, but could I add another thing? Since I don't think all unpleasant labour can be automated, I think some criminals who have done minor crimes could be in some sort of clean-up crew, or do some other manual labour. I'm not saying that is the only thing they would do, as that would be very inneffective, they could also be in a rehab institution, but at the same time, say, driving garbage trucks.

Prisons would be very, very different from now. No violence or intense work should be put upon prisoners. I think prison should be made kind of pleasant, and almost like a school, where people can be educated, to decrease their want of doing more criminal activities.

In a post-revolutionary society, crime would be reduced greatly, except for a few people that might have mental illnesses. Taking care of those few would not be a problem at all.

[gorillafuck]

Why not the abolition of prisons? When money is eliminated, which is what takes place within a communist system, then there'd be no need for laws such as stealing, & we could build a transportational-system using resources instead of money that could eliminate the use of traffic laws. Violent crimes is even connected to money, somewhat. But also, we have the capabilities to find violent offenders now through brain-studies. It was shown through a study of the top 70 serial killers that all 70 had frontal lobe damage (http://socyberty.com/crime/a-killer-brain-a-look-inside-serial-killers/). What the frontal lobe damage does is prevent a person from knowing right from wrong & making logical actions. If we could initiate these kind of studies world-wide, we could help those that have that kind of damage instead of just giving up on them & locking them up for life. Violent crimes consist of rape, murder, abuse, etc. So those laws, with traffic laws & robbery laws would initially be eliminated & replaced with a rehabilitation program. And for those that seem to be harder to rehabilitate, then we could simply do what Norway is doing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGTzbj3fRSw). There's no need for prisons.
The vast majority of violent criminals aren't serial killers.

[Durruti's Ghost]

Yes, I definitely agree with all that you say, but could I add another thing? Since I don't think all unpleasant labour can be automated, I think some criminals who have done minor crimes could be in some sort of clean-up crew, or do some other manual labour. I'm not saying that is the only thing they would do, as that would be very inneffective, they could also be in a rehab institution, but at the same time, say, driving garbage trucks.

Prisons would be very, very different from now. No violence or intense work should be put upon prisoners. I think prison should be made kind of pleasant, and almost like a school, where people can be educated, to decrease their want of doing more criminal activities.

I think that this would be a workable arrangement provided it didn't go overboard (i.e., turn into Gulag-style labor camps). I'm not convinced that most labor that is considered universally unpleasant couldn't be automated, though. Although that's not the subject of this thread, so I won't derail it into a discussion of that point.

[The Vegan Marxist]

All the top 70 serial killers have frontal lobe damage, so what? The vast majority of violent criminals aren't serial killers.

Serial killers are a type of violent criminals. It's all connected through the functionality of the frontal lobe. Not to mention that most serial killers have also partaken in crimes such as physical abuse & rape as well; hint: BTK killer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Rader).

[gorillafuck]

Serial killers are a type of violent criminals. It's all connected through the functionality of the frontal lobe. Not to mention that most serial killers have also partaken in crimes such as physical abuse & rape as well; hint: BTK killer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Rader).
Do all rapists and child abusers, etc. have this problem? Because if not then you're just describing a method to find potential serial killers, not violent criminals in general.

[ellipsis]

The Sandinistas had a interesting take on the penal system. From a really great documentary on the revolutionary state, the part on prisons starts at 18:58

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJWNof0e2TM

[Muzk]

We should build a prison and name it "Stormfront"

Till the very latest stages, where child education is perfectly collectivized, of course we need prisons to keep people in who do harm to society! Or socialism. But since we have radical democracy, it won't be possible to abuse this, mright?

[Nwoye]

I think it would now be appropriate to pimp Michel Foucault's book Discipline and Punish: The Birth of the Prison, and also to recommend everyone to the post-structuralism study group (http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=270) where we're reading this book right now.

[StrictlyRuddie]

There's A good passage from the Situationist inspired "The Joys Of Revolution" By Ken Knabb that talks about prison abolishment and its alternatives under communism, Its under "Eliminating the roots of war and crime"

http://www.bopsecrets.org/PS/joyrev4.htm#crime

[bcbm]

i don't think there is any place for prisons in a communist society. communism will mean the radical altering of almost every conceivable relation between human beings; why would an archaic and useless institution like the prison be left?

[gorillafuck]

No it wouldn't :confused:

Or at least it wouldn't have to. Who says their couldn't be community run prisons?
Can I have some elaboration on how a community run prison would be run?


i don't think there is any place for prisons in a communist society. communism will mean the radical altering of almost every conceivable relation between human beings; why would an archaic and useless institution like the prison be left?
I can imagine prisons being run differently (someone here said "more like schools") but what are alternative that would involve nobody ever being forcibly kept in a building of some kind for rehabilitation?

[bcbm]

I can imagine prisons being run differently (someone here said "more like schools")

prisons are already run like schools. or vice-versa.


but what are alternative that would involve nobody ever being forcibly kept in a building of some kind for rehabilitation?

i think any form of rehabilitation would be a community project that could be undertaken without forcing anyone into a cage.

[Nwoye]

prisons are already run like schools. or vice-versa.
listen to this man (and Michel Foucault).

[Comrade_Oxes]

Perhaps the death sentence will be more appropriate, and economically effecient.

[RED DAVE]

Perhaps the death sentence will be more appropriate, and economically effecient.Ah, banned already.

:thumbup1:

RED DAVE

[gorillafuck]

i think any form of rehabilitation would be a community project that could be undertaken without forcing anyone into a cage.
How would you be able to get everybody in a community to rehabilitate violent criminals? I would think there would definitely need to be special people to do so (probably social workers).

[The Vegan Marxist]

How would you be able to get everybody in a community to rehabilitate violent criminals? I would think there would definitely need to be special people to do so (probably social workers).

sounds like a good idea to me. we shouldn't just lock them up & forget about them. these people need help, not to be put into an environment where they are likely to learn more about the lifestyle than they originally knew.

[bcbm]

How would you be able to get everybody in a community to rehabilitate violent criminals?

i don't think you would need to "make" anyone do anything. a communal response to anti-social behavior seems like a pretty natural result of a communist society.

[bcbm]

How would you be able to get everybody in a community to rehabilitate violent criminals?

i don't think you would need to "make" anyone do anything. a communal response to anti-social behavior seems like a pretty natural result of a communist society.

[Nwoye]

In addition to recognizing that most forms of property-based crime would cease to exist, it's important to note that the concept of rehabilitation would be radically different in a communist society. In modern capitalism the rehabilitation of criminals consists of instilling in them the values of capitalist society, including respect for private property, subservience to authority (docility, as Foucault calls it), and adherence to the cultural norms of the upper class, like Christianity. These specific values would obviously become obsolete, but it's possible that the prison or something like it would become a place to instill communist values, whatever they may be. Education is a weapon whose effects depend on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed, and just as education is used as a weapon by the bourgeoisie to reproduce capitalism, it may be that the proletariat uses the same weapon to reproduce communism. There is of course a moral problem here, but that's a whole other argument.

Also a major part of prison-based rehabilitation is the inheritance of certain skills which make one a productive member of capitalist society. Prisoners who are set to return society are often taught a specific trade or are forced to go to classes to learn how to assimilate back into the work force, in the hopes that once they're out they participate in the production of wealth (or aid in the accumulation of capital, more specifically). They're often paid for their work, and this serves to reinforce wage labor as the primary "means of life" (this reinforces docility as well). In communism this would of course cease to exist, as the primary role of the individual would no longer be to sell their labor producing wealth. What it would be is unknown, as we of course have no idea how communism would operate, though we may vague and underdeveloped ideas.

For these reasons I think it's rather presumptuous to try to predict the ways in which justice will be enforced in communist society (or whether "justice" would still exist), and so we should just make sure that we don't try to replicate or emulate the existing structures of enforcing justice, as they are specific to their historical period.

[Chambered Word]

We should really focus on rehabilitation. Let's face it: if a prisoner is not rehabilitated and prepared to become a decent member of society, what's the point in letting them out of prison? You might as well just shoot them, because that's all the good it will do.

As for the lifers, set up a gulag. To hell with paying for their meals and accomodation if they aren't going to work, especially if they've committed a particularly damaging crime against society.

[bcbm]

We should really focus on rehabilitation. Let's face it: if a prisoner is not rehabilitated and prepared to become a decent member of society, what's the point in letting them out of prison? You might as well just shoot them, because that's all the good it will do.

how can you prepare someone to become "a decent member of society" by isolating them from society with other anti-social individuals?


As for the lifers, set up a gulag. To hell with paying for their meals and accomodation if they aren't going to work, especially if they've committed a particularly damaging crime against society.

i think you falsely assume that there are some human beings who have no value whatsoever, and that they can simply be thrown away. given that some of the bourgeois states have already completely removed life imprisonment as a sentence, it seems pretty bizarre to suggest going back to more barbaric punishments.

[Tatarin]

Interesting question, but I still think a future communist society would be very different. Remember that everything is interconected, and so crimes such as those made out of passion. I think that in such a society, the human mind would be much more "relaxed", that is, relations wouldn't "mean as much" as they do today, since the world would be much more open and have much more possibilities, thus in a sence eradicating the "screw everything, I'm gonna kill this guy"-thinking.

As for people who have unstable psyches, I think development of medicine and of psychology is the right way to go. Not in the sence of making such people vegetables, but to fix the real problem at hand. I guess many mental problems today are both genetical and social problems, and most likely social problems can in the long run affect the psyche in coming generations.

So in short, yes, there will most likely be prisons for some time no matter how perfect society is, but if "my theory" is right and psychological problems can be cured by a more humane society, then sooner or later prisons wouldn't be much use. Of course, there is also the "Matrix" solution in where the prisoner is placed in a virtual world in where he or she can do whatever that person wants, but that is another question. :)

[Tiktaalik]

Abolish all prisons! No cages for human beings! Smash the state!

The community responds to anti-social behavior naturally and spontaneously. Fuck y'all that call yourselves anarchists and talk about criminals, usually working-class folks trying to survive, as if they'll still be around in communism and prescribing a punishment for them. Fuck your "anarchism".

[Tiktaalik]

Most anti-social crimes you speak of are direct or indirect products of capitalism! Even the ones that aren't are easily solved in a culture that encourages open, healthy communication.

[Quail]

I always imagined that "prisons" would be more like mental health facilities, so that people who had done something harmful to society could be offered rehabilitation, which would most likely require counselling/medication (since there would be no real reason to commit most crimes in a society based on mutual cooperation, unless you weren't mentally stable).

[Communist Theory]

We send them to re-education camps and make them love big brother!

[Chambered Word]

how can you prepare someone to become "a decent member of society" by isolating them from society with other anti-social individuals?

I specifically said we should focus on rehabilitating people, instead of simply locking them up.


i think you falsely assume that there are some human beings who have no value whatsoever, and that they can simply be thrown away. given that some of the bourgeois states have already completely removed life imprisonment as a sentence, it seems pretty bizarre to suggest going back to more barbaric punishments.

I don't believe everybody can be rehabilitated.


Abolish all prisons! No cages for human beings! Smash the state!

The community responds to anti-social behavior naturally and spontaneously. Fuck y'all that call yourselves anarchists and talk about criminals, usually working-class folks trying to survive, as if they'll still be around in communism and prescribing a punishment for them. Fuck your "anarchism".

Oh yes, all criminals are victims. :rolleyes:


We send them to re-education camps and make them love big brother!

:lol:

[gorillafuck]

I think some of you overestimate how willing all the people in a community are to rehabilitating every individual person who might have beat someone to the brink of death.

[bcbm]

I specifically said we should focus on rehabilitating people, instead of simply locking them up.

yes, but in prison, which i disagree with.


I don't believe everybody can be rehabilitated.

that's too bad. but even if it were true i think humanity can come up with a better solution than gulags.



I think some of you overestimate how willing all the people in a community are to rehabilitating every individual person who might have beat someone to the brink of death.

do you believe humanity can create a communist society?

[gorillafuck]

do you believe humanity can create a communist society?
I don't really know right now. But I don't think that's the issue at hand. If it can, I still doubt that everyone would want to personally help rehabilitate every violent criminal.

[bcbm]

I don't really know right now. But I don't think that's the issue at hand. If it can, I still doubt that everyone would want to personally help rehabilitate every violent criminal.

i think its the issue at hand. if we can overcome the most powerful forces on the planet and establish a stateless, classless world, i imagine having communal solutions for "criminals" wouldn't be terribly difficult, and would be better for everyone involved.

[gorillafuck]

i think its the issue at hand. if we can overcome the most powerful forces on the planet and establish a stateless, classless world, i imagine having communal solutions for "criminals" wouldn't be terribly difficult, and would be better for everyone involved.
A stateless, classless society should try to reduce the amount of stress the world places on everyone. Not make every violent person be everybodies problem.

[bcbm]

A stateless, classless society should try to reduce the amount of stress the world places on everyone. Not make every violent person be everybodies problem.

a community member who directs anti-social behavior at their community is a community problem. i imagine living in a way where everyone was concerned about the well-being of others and the community as a whole wouldn't be especially stressful.

[gorillafuck]

a community member who directs anti-social behavior at their community is a community problem. i imagine living in a way where everyone was concerned about the well-being of others and the community as a whole wouldn't be especially stressful.
I imagine that it would be very difficult for your average person to partake in rehabilitating someone who they do not know unless they were trained to do so.

[Tablo]

I feel like a person should be offered rehabilitation if they have become a nuisance to the community. I do believe they have the option to choose whether to accept it. If they refuse though, they should be denied goods and services. This would give them the option to leave the place they have called home or open up and let the community help.

[bcbm]

I imagine that it would be very difficult for your average person to partake in rehabilitating someone who they do not know unless they were trained to do so.

"community" in my mind would include knowing each other as a prerequisite, but anyway rehabilitation being a community responsibility doesn't necessarily mean that every person has to directly interact, but that the process takes place within the community. i imagine there would still be specialists to help with the process, but it would also include "regular" members of the community if only through basic socializing and so on. how rehabilitation would be undertaken in regards to specific cases would also probably be communally decided.

[gorillafuck]

"community" in my mind would include knowing each other as a prerequisite, but anyway rehabilitation being a community responsibility doesn't necessarily mean that every person has to directly interact, but that the process takes place within the community. i imagine there would still be specialists to help with the process, but it would also include "regular" members of the community if only through basic socializing and so on. how rehabilitation would be undertaken in regards to specific cases would also probably be communally decided.
That's a fairly good argument, actually. But what do you plan on doing with someone who goes through this process multiple times but is still a repeat offender?

[bcbm]

That's a fairly good argument, actually. But what do you plan on doing with someone who goes through this process multiple times but is still a repeat offender?

i honestly don't think it would be very common, but it would depend largely on what they're repeating and how their community deals with things anyway. denial of certain benefits/resources might be one possible solution, or a "sliding scale" rehabilitation process, ie one that would become more intensive in terms of hands-on social work done.