Time to drop the politics

[Comrade B]

There comes a point where no one gives a shit about your politics, shut the fuck up and help some people out.

When it comes to a situation like Haiti, you should spend less time criticizing the people who fucked up in the situation, and actually send some material support to the country. There will be plenty of time to create an angry mob after the roads have been cleared and aid supplied.

[The Red Next Door]

I don't support imperialism but hey at this moment we need these countries to help these people out.

[FreeFocus]

I somewhat agree, although I don't see why any leftists wouldn't encourage immediate aid for a natural disaster. There's also the unnatural component (i.e. capitalism, American imperialism) of the disaster, which we should bring light to as well. Doing just the latter also means that the right wins the propaganda war - "Look at how loony these leftists are, all they do is make theoretical criticisms but won't make any real steps in the real world, even for natural disasters."

Just donate what you can. The Red Cross isn't, to my knowledge, actively looking to fuck over poor and oppressed people (I know someone will claim this, and if you do, please give evidence). There are other organizations out there too that will help with relief and rebuilding.

[Q]

Just donate what you can. The Red Cross isn't, to my knowledge, actively looking to fuck over poor and oppressed people (I know someone will claim this, and if you do, please give evidence). There are other organizations out there too that will help with relief and rebuilding.
Are there any viable alternatives to the Red Cross? Not that I boycott them, but I prefer a more worker controlled alternative, if possible.

[genstrike]

There comes a point where no one gives a shit about your politics, shut the fuck up and help some people out.

When it comes to a situation like Haiti, you should spend less time criticizing the people who fucked up in the situation, and actually send some material support to the country. There will be plenty of time to create an angry mob after the roads have been cleared and aid supplied.

We should be careful though. Imperialist forces often use a carrot and stick approach to other countries, and we want to make sure our assistance is actually helping and not advancing the imperialist interests which have done more harm to Haiti over the last five hundred years than any earthquake can possibly do, even though an earthquake is a bigger story for the media than any amount of everyday suffering of poor black people. One of the best things we can do for Haiti in the long run is making sure this disaster isn't used by imperialist countries to push policies which would even further exploit the Haitian people.

Also, you're assuming that anyone discussing Haiti isn't doing anything. Beyond making a donation, there's not much we can do in terms of material aid. So after I cut a cheque, can I talk about Haiti on revleft, or is there a minimum donation?

And besides, this is a discussion forum. "Shut the fuck up" and don't discuss current issues pretty much runs counter to the entire purpose of revleft.

[Yazman]

Right, because workers of the world should be footing the bill when most of us have trouble paying our own bills.

Its not quite as simple as you seem to want to think it is. Look at the US government, pledging only 100 million to Haiti when they send 30 billion to Israel, and trillions to giant corporations.

[bajo.el.arco.del.sol]

as someone who used to work in the humanitarian world and who still gets calls/emails asking me to go to haiti anytime anything happens there....

if you're going to donate to the red cross, the icrc has a better reputation than the american red cross, though the american one is probably better than nothing. as for ngos, american ngos tend to have more of a "charity" orientation while british ngos try to be "participatory" - with varying degrees of success. MSF, Oxfam GB, and ACF are at the top of my list.

a lot of lefties i know have been recommending partners in health - standwithhaiti.org/haiti - (who i hadn't heard of before), who apparently have a long-term presence in haiti, have structures where they make themselves accountable to the communities they work in, and approach their work firmly as solidarity rather than charity. which all sounds quite good.

at the bottom of the list (as far as i'm concerned) are groups like PLAN, WorldVision, and anyone who wants you to sponsor a child. actually, that's not true... i'm pretty sure ananda marga has a haiti "humanitarian relief" group - so if you feel like supporting the front group of a crazy messianic cult, that would be the one to go for.

[genstrike]

Are there any viable alternatives to the Red Cross? Not that I boycott them, but I prefer a more worker controlled alternative, if possible.

http://miamiautonomyandsolidarity.wordpress.com/2010/01/14/call-for-solidarity-and-funds-for-the-working-people-of-haiti/

[bcbm]

Right, because workers of the world should be footing the bill when most of us have trouble paying our own bills.


you have a roof over your head. you have internet access. shut the fuck up.

[black magick hustla]

idk. its not about "dropping politics", its about noting that charity is not political work. i mean i am not against giving aid to this charity orgs but i dont think its something a communist organization should put in its platform. its someotthing you coordinate outside communist organizations.

[Yazman]

you have a roof over your head. you have internet access. shut the fuck up.

1. I've already donated what I can.

2. It shouldn't be our job to donate money. Not when there is an ultra elite in possession of billions of dollars.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I couldn't agree more with the OP.

I mean of course, Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine - which I am currently reading - could not be more applicable here. We must be vigilant against wholesale support of all US measures that go under the pretext of 'aid' and 'reconstruction'.

However, these fall under the category of long-term assistance really, which is something that we, as Socialists, simply will not participate in, as that will be a process controlled by man. However, there is nothing wrong with joining forces with anybody who wants to and can help, to alleviate what is essentially a natural disaster.

The lives of the Haitian people surely come before the interests of the body politic, in the immediate term. It is truly shocking to hear of the number of deaths being talked about. One can only imagine the collective psychological damage done to the Haitian people. Reports of 40,000 deaths so far are probably an under-estimate - you can then probably multiply by 3, 4 or 5 the number of people affected, i.e. those who will have lost an immediate member of their family.

[AK]

you have a roof over your head. you have internet access. shut the fuck up.
If life were so utopian as somehow presented in this quote, then we wouldn't support any revolution, would we? I agree that we should drop the politics in times like these and focus on our common humanity to help those affected though.

[ZeroNowhere]

Yes, when people are suffering because of capitalism, and more specifically Western imperialism, one should certainly wait until after people are concerned about them to point this out. One would suppose that giving money to charities is incompatible with this kind of thing (http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/1900-help-haiti-the-unforgiven-country-cries-out.html).

[bcbm]

1. I've already donated what I can.

2. It shouldn't be our job to donate money. Not when there is an ultra elite in possession of billions of dollars.

i think we're all very well aware that the world is a horrible place. its not about "footing the bill" or "jobs," its about being a fucking decent human being. which apparently you already are, so what are you shitting on about?


If life were so utopian as somehow presented in this quote, then we wouldn't support any revolution, would we? I agree that we should drop the politics in times like these and focus on our common humanity to help those affected though.

utopian? what are you talking about?

[Comrade B]

Right, because workers of the world should be footing the bill when most of us have trouble paying our own bills.

Its not quite as simple as you seem to want to think it is. Look at the US government, pledging only 100 million to Haiti when they send 30 billion to Israel, and trillions to giant corporations.
Am I supporting the US in any way by telling people they should actually act?

I doubt you have so much trouble paying your bills you can't spare 5 bucks.


i mean i am not against giving aid to this charity orgs but i dont think its something a communist organization should put in its platform. its someotthing you coordinate outside communist organizations.
While charity is not a platform idea of communism helping humanity is our goal, at this point, charity is the only thing we can actually do to help.


2. It shouldn't be our job to donate money. Not when there is an ultra elite in possession of billions of dollars.
It is the duty of everyone to help each other, though those with more money should definately be paying much, much more. We live in a capitalist society so it IS neccissary for us to act because many will not.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Are there any viable alternatives to the Red Cross? Not that I boycott them, but I prefer a more worker controlled alternative, if possible.
Genstrike beat me to it, but I really would advocate checking the Batay Ouvriye link he gave.

We should be careful though. Imperialist forces often use a carrot and stick approach to other countries, and we want to make sure our assistance is actually helping and not advancing the imperialist interests which have done more harm to Haiti over the last five hundred years than any earthquake can possibly do, even though an earthquake is a bigger story for the media than any amount of everyday suffering of poor black people. One of the best things we can do for Haiti in the long run is making sure this disaster isn't used by imperialist countries to push policies which would even further exploit the Haitian people.

Also, you're assuming that anyone discussing Haiti isn't doing anything. Beyond making a donation, there's not much we can do in terms of material aid. So after I cut a cheque, can I talk about Haiti on revleft, or is there a minimum donation?

And besides, this is a discussion forum. "Shut the fuck up" and don't discuss current issues pretty much runs counter to the entire purpose of revleft.
Well put. Should we have shut the fuck up and not criticised Bush after Hurricane Katrina? How about after 9/11? "Natural disasters" are often preventable (I've not seen anything to suggest that Haiti was anywhere near as man-made as Katrina, but I'm not an expert) and the only way we can reduce the frequency with which they happen is by discussing who's responsible and what we can do to change things. Respectful silence can help disasters to happen again.


2. It shouldn't be our job to donate money. Not when there is an ultra elite in possession of billions of dollars.
It shoudn't be, but the ultra-rich didn't get ultra-rich by being generous. We should have communism, but we don't.

[Comrade B]

Should we have shut the fuck up and not criticised Bush after Hurricane Katrina? How about after 9/11?
At the time of the disaster it is more important to help the people than to criticize the way help is being given.
The important part is AFTER. While people are still buried, starving, and dehydrated, we should first focus on helping them.

[AK]

utopian? what are you talking about?
I'm talking about how your idea of a roof over our heads and internet access, as compared to the situations in Haiti, is almost utopian.

[bcbm]

I'm talking about how your idea of a roof over our heads and internet access, as compared to the situations in Haiti, is almost utopian.

i'm sorry, i still have no idea what the hell you are talking about?

[jake williams]

Fuck off about dropping politics. Hours after the quake, Obama announced he was sending the Marines. If that doesn't scare the shit out of you, you don't understand world/Haitian history.

Of course, any humane politics of course entails that we do what we can to ensure people don't die in situations like this. But in our case as radicals, there's very little substantively we can do in terms of ensuring people don't, say, die of injuries sustained, or even say of hunger in the immediate aftermath. Where we may be able to have a substantive effect is in combatting the imperialist "reopening" of Haiti. It's awkward though here because one can hardly call it a reinvasion, because imperialist troops have been there for awhile.

[Jimmie Higgins]

There comes a point where no one gives a shit about your politics, shut the fuck up and help some people out.

When it comes to a situation like Haiti, you should spend less time criticizing the people who fucked up in the situation, and actually send some material support to the country.

Unfortunately, the US and other countries are not putting aside their politics and so I think it would be dangerous for us to not be critical. I don't think it's counterposed to send aid from the grassroots - in the US there are many agencies set up by Haitian immigrants due to the massive poverty there - and be critical of the US and UN's intentions and historical relationship to Haiti, other Caribbean nations, and poor countries in general.

When they US is sending 9,000 "peace-keeping" troops (and imperial police force to prevent starving people from taking to supplies they need in order to survive) and George W. Bush... there's nothing non-political about it. Like with Katrina, the American people could do a better and more sincere and helpful job in helping people in need than the US government could - because the US government has no interest in the welfare of Haitians.

So not only should we criticize the US for its intentions, but we NEED to criticize the US because they do not have the intention or interest in actually helping the people there. The best thing - it's not possible right now - would be if we had a bigger movement, an active and bold anti-war movement that could place demands on the US government to send doctors rather than soldiers, no-strings aid rather than "Shock Doctrine", and so the US would at least have to appear that it is actually helping people rather than just protecting the established social order of Haiti from popular anger and desperation.

[chegitz guevara]

Are there any viable alternatives to the Red Cross? Not that I boycott them, but I prefer a more worker controlled alternative, if possible.

Given that the capitalists are going to try and use the disaster to make further inroads, money should be sent to revolutionary groups with contacts on the island. Batay Ouvriye, a Haitian workers group could probably use funds to help fight, as much as possible, the shock doctrine that the Heritage Foundation is already advocating.

In fact, at this time, we absolutely not drop the politics. The capitalists aren't.

This is from Miami Autonomy and Solidarity


Miami Autonomy & Solidarity
01/14/09- A natural disaster has descended upon Haiti whose scope we only are seeing the surface of at this time. The Haitian people will be struggling to rebuild their lives and their home possibly for decades in light of unprecedented collapse, both physical and social. Yet despite the unpredictability of earthquakes, this disaster is unnatural, a monstrosity of our time. The extent of the damage of the earthquake is part of the cost of unrestrained exploitation which at every step put profit above the health, safety, and well being of the Haitian people. While the world watches on ready to help, power is being dealt an opportunity. The Haitian workers and peasants have been fighting for their rights to even the most basic level of existence for decades, while the UN-occupying force, the state, and the ruling elites maintain the social misery without relenting. Now as Port-Au-Prince is in rubble, new opportunities arise for rulers to rebuild Haiti in their own interests, and likewise for the Haitian workers and peasants to assert their right to their own Haiti, one where they will be not be forced to live in dangerous buildings, and work merely to fill the pockets of elites, foreign or domestic.

As we move from watching in horror to taking decisive action, progressives can offer an alternative. There is a strong and beautiful desire to do something, to help others in this time of need. Our actions are strongest when we organize ourselves, and make a concerted effort in unity. Right now we can have the deepest impact by committing ourselves to act in solidarity with the autonomous social movements of Haiti directly. They present the best possible option for the Haitian people, and are in the greatest need. At the same time, we are in the best position to help them out our common interest as people engaged in struggling against a system that works to exploit us all. We are calling for solidarity people-to-people engaged in common struggle. It is not only a question of money for AID but also an autonomous and independent act of international solidarity that illuminates the bankruptcy of the occupying forces, multinational corporations, and Haitian elites that are primarily responsible for the decayed state of Haiti. There will be aid flowing and money given as a form of charity until the next disaster. Our act of solidarity should, in no shape or form, be solely an act of humanitarian aid. It should not be an apolitical act, and we shouldn't give the green light to those that wish to capitalize on the suffering of others. It should be an act of solidarity to the struggling people of Haiti and their organizations while at the same time rejecting the totally inept Haitian elites and their state apparatus for bankrupting Haiti. The earthquake is a natural disaster, but the state of Haiti, the abject poverty of the masses and the vile injustice of the social order, are unnatural.

In Miami, we have a relationship with one organization, Batay Ouvriye, and are putting our resources and time into helping Batay Ouvriye to help rebuild from the catastrophe and maintain the struggle for a better Haiti and a better world. Batay Ouvriye is a combative grassroots worker and peasant’s organization in Haiti with workers organized all over Haiti, especially in the Industrial sweatshops and Free Trade Zones. If others wish to send money to Batay Ouvriye, please email [email protected]

[Jimmie Higgins]

I'm talking about how your idea of a roof over our heads and internet access, as compared to the situations in Haiti, is almost utopian.Well you could say that living in Haiti is better than being in fascist Germany - these kinds of comparisons are kind of moot. Let's not moralize about this - people will give what they can because they care about what's happening - others are cynical about aid-agencies and throw their hands in the air - and countless people live paycheck to paycheck and don't think the $10-$20 that they can seriously spare will do much (many people like that will still give something).

Instead of moralizing to people, revolutionaries should find reputable independent relief organizations like the one cited earlier in this post, and when we collect donnations for these agencies, we should tell people why we are not counting on the US government to bring the kind of aid needed (I think we will get a lot of agreement in the US on this).

[AK]

Gah, never mind. As the thread says, let's drop the politics.

[Mindtoaster]

I'd recommend donating to an organization besides the Red Cross.

Most of the donations will probably go to paying off the 200 million plus deficit they are currently in

I donated what I could, and would recommend others donate to, an organization such as Doctors Without Borders

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/

And I agree with Comrade B's sentiment, that we not downplay aiding Haiti due to politics and left-wink cynicism of charity. They need IMMEDIATE assistance


*VERY GRAPHIC*
http://i.imgur.com/C2IxW.jpg

[chegitz guevara]

There's a strike! We need to stop talking about politics and support these people!

The cops shot a Black kid for no reason. It's time to drop the politics!

A woman was raped! Why are you still talking about politics!

The world exists, stop talking about politics!

:rolleyes:

Politics is the reason why all these things happen, and we have to discuss politics each and every time, until they don't happen any more.

If you think we need to drop our politics everytime something real happens, I suggest you label yourself a social democrat or a liberal, instead of calling yourself a Trotskyist. Real Trotskyists, no matter how annoying they often are, at least understand that politics is why people are dying. That's why they will never drop the politics.

[jake williams]

The other most basic fact we have to recognize is that one of the reasons the quake was so tragic was that it basically destroyed what little economy and government the country had, in addition to homes and lives. To even remotely "function" as much as it did before, it'll have to be totally rebuilt. The notion that we should "ignore politics" in rebuilding a country is really ridiculous. Ignoring politics means ignoring the Haitian people, not ignoring "petty differences" in the interests of just helping them.

[Comrade B]

There's a strike! We need to stop talking about politics and support these people!

The cops shot a Black kid for no reason. It's time to drop the politics!

A woman was raped! Why are you still talking about politics!

The world exists, stop talking about politics!
This has absolutely nothing to do with a situation where people are suffering for every moment they do not get aid.


Hours after the quake, Obama announced he was sending the Marines. If that doesn't scare the shit out of you, you don't understand world/Haitian history
The US sends their military into disaster areas, it is what they do. China sends the PLA to do the same. Countries like to put in their military first to create a base, also, the military is organized, while these relief groups are not at the time.
Tell me of a situation where the US military in Haiti has used their weapons since the earthquake?

I am not arguing that people should not criticize US policy at all, I am saying that even if you dislike some things about how the situation is being handled, do something to help. I honestly doubt the Haitian people care too much that the military is there at this point because they are in trouble NOW. The threat of foreign occupation down the line isn't a major issue to most people buried under buildings or dying from starvation of dehydration.

[jake williams]

Tell me of a situation where the US military in Haiti has used their weapons since the earthquake?
Tell me about more than once or twice in history that the US military has been used for benevolent purposes. Especially in the Caribbean - including Haiti.

[Glenn Beck]

I don't really see the point of this thread. How are we helping Haitians by keeping quiet about the reasons for Haitian misery and cheerleading our leaders' self-congratulatory media spectacle, pretending that they really do as much as they claim? Haiti is fucked because of politics. There aren't any natural disasters. Earthquakes are natural. Poor architecture, underdeveloped infrastructure, lack of emergency response, and poor public health are not natural. They are social, economic, political. This is a political disaster, and the fact that the people who underdeveloped Haiti are sending troops and battleships to 'restore order' to a country whose elected government they overthrew just a few years ago, how do you expect us to simply forget about that?

I think the entire premise of this thread is horribly misguided, especially since many of the leading advocates of humanitarian relief for Haiti, like Dr. Paul Farmer, are some of the harshest critics of the hypocrisy and inadequacy of existing relief programs. It's failure to criticize that hurts Haiti, not the threat of criticism somehow starving Haiti of relief.

[Comrade B]

How are we helping Haitians by keeping quiet about the reasons for Haitian miseryHow are we helping without donating?


cheerleading our leaders' self-congratulatory media spectacle,how are we doing that?


Tell me about more than once or twice in history that the US military has been used for benevolent purposes. Especially in the Caribbean - including Haiti.
How many situations has the US actually intervened in a natural disaster outside of its borders?

[Comrade B]

Of course, if there is another earthquake that some how more destroys the country in the next couple weeks I will be totally wrong... but I am willing to put my reputation on that not happening

[Saorsa]

Donate money to Lavalas. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanmi_Lavalas)

[Jimmie Higgins]

Washington has taken control over the airport and is preventing aid from other countries. France, the other imperialist country with long-ties to Haiti is complaining that the US is calling all the shots and preventing the French from entering

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/16/AR2010011602921.html


[French Ambassador to Haiti] Le Bret said that the Port-au-Prince airport has become "not an airport for the international community. It is an annex of Washington."
"We were told it was an extreme emergency, there was a need for a field hospital," the ambassador said. "We might be able to make a difference and save lives."

The US sends their military into disaster areas, it is what they do. China sends the PLA to do the same. Yes because they know it is an "in" for them. China refused US aid during their earthquake and if China tried to send people and equipment to Haiti, the US would not allow them to come in and become a major part of the operation.

If the US were interested in starving Haitians, then it would accept Haitian economic refugees and would have been giving the country huge amounts of aid and food when the country went into crisis due to the wild increases in the prices for staple foods thanks to speculative investing.

It's telling that 9,000 troops are going in, the US is siezing the ports and airport and Obama said they would be INVESTING (not donnating) 100 million dollars in Haiti to help the situation.

US involvement is not just a slimy imperialist ploy to be denounce by leftists - it will actually cause more deaths because they are not really interested in relief for the people there.

[Comrade B]

I donated to Redcross because I know that they are there already and that the money can be utilized quickly. Donate to the political parties later to prevent another such incident, donate to rescue groups now.


Yes because they know it is an "in" for them. China refused US aid during their earthquake and if China tried to send people and equipment to Haiti, the US would not allow them to come in and become a major part of the operation.

If the US were interested in starving Haitians, then it would accept Haitian economic refugees and would have been giving the country huge amounts of aid and food when the country went into crisis due to the wild increases in the prices for staple foods thanks to speculative investing.

It's telling that 9,000 troops are going in, the US is siezing the ports and airport and Obama said they would be INVESTING (not donnating) 100 million dollars in Haiti to help the situation.

US involvement is not just a slimy imperialist ploy to be denounce by leftists - it will actually cause more deaths because they are not really interested in relief for the people there.
The US blocking aid is an issue worthy of discussion because it is doing immediate damage, that is pretty fucking evil, even by the US's standards

[Yazman]

The crisis in Haiti and the donation of money is really a great example of why the price system is so ridiculous and obsolete.

We already have the materials to rebuild Haiti at our disposal, and said materials are abundant.

[genstrike]

How are we helping without donating?

Who said anyone isn't donating?

Pretty much all that's been said in this thread about donating is "be careful who you donate to" and "People with their own bills to pay shouldn't have to donate more than they can afford."

No one said people shouldn't donate. You're fighting a strawman. I could speculate as to the psychological reasons why you seem so intent on moralizing to everyone else and waving some "I'm helping Haiti while you're just talking" flag around by beating on this strawman, but it's not worth my time.

Incidentally, to everyone on here who is saying "don't talk about this while people are dying" or "you people still have internet access and a roof over your heads", why are you posting here and not leading to wherever you're going with this by example?



I am not arguing that people should not criticize US policy at all

You are arguing that people should "drop the politics" and "shut the fuck up". Don't those two things entail not criticizing US policy, among a lot of other things?

[ls]

That is unbelievable denying aid from entering. If that's not a simple and immediate point that someone pauses on, I don't know what is, that is one of the evilest things I've heard the US doing in a long time, it shows just how deeply evil and corupt American capitalism-imperialism really is.

[Vendetta]

It's best to let Haiti take care of themselves. If they are miserable, it's no skin off my bones. If they die off, then that just leaves us more room to colonize.

Wow.

[Q]

Donate money to Lavalas. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanmi_Lavalas)
This is the party of former president Aristide and current president Preval. These are left-populist presidents popular with the population, but aren't able at all to come up with solutions against capitalists problems, of which this disaster is a graphic example.

Read more in this article (http://socialistworld.net/eng/2010/01/1303.html).

[eyedrop]

I'm not that surprised that the US blocks out other aid in Haiti as I seem to remember reading a Chomsky book documenting them blocking out ground based aid during a famine in Afganistan as they wanted their insufficient air-drop aid to be the only aid.

[Comrade B]

Incidentally, to everyone on here who is saying "don't talk about this while people are dying" or "you people still have internet access and a roof over your heads", why are you posting here and not leading to wherever you're going with this by example?
These are answers to people who were saying that people already can't support themselves, however they clearly can, because they have internet access.


You are arguing that people should "drop the politics" and "shut the fuck up". Don't those two things entail not criticizing US policy, among a lot of other things?
This post was made on the second day after the earthquake. My point was that while people are arguing, people were in need of immediate assistance and you are able to donate immediately.


I could speculate as to the psychological reasons why you seem so intent on moralizing to everyone else and waving some "I'm helping Haiti while you're just talking" flag around by beating on this strawman, but it's not worth my time
Thanks doc, but I would prefer you fuck off too.

[cyu]

This is the party of former president Aristide and current president Preval. These are left-populist presidents popular with the population, but aren't able at all to come up with solutions against capitalists problems


From http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html

1993
Haiti — The chaos in Haiti grows so bad that President Clinton has no choice but to remove the Haitian military dictator, Raoul Cedras, on threat of U.S. invasion. The U.S. occupiers do not arrest Haiti’s military leaders for crimes against humanity, but instead ensure their safety and rich retirements. Aristide is returned to power only after being forced to accept an agenda favorable to the country’s ruling class.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Dominique

On December 16, 1996, Dominique had accused Aristide in a live interview that Aristide had showered the "big oligarchy" with gifts after returning to the country. Dominique said that that the oligarchs, in return, had corrupted the tax office and the electricity company, and that this corruption had been accepted by Lavalas.

[ls]

These are answers to people who were saying that people already can't support themselves, however they clearly can, because they have internet access.

This post was made on the second day after the earthquake. My point was that while people are arguing, people were in need of immediate assistance and you are able to donate immediately.


Thanks doc, but I would prefer you fuck off too.

You have a nasty elitist attitude that you would do well to drop. As others have highlighted, the absolute reason that Haiti suffers like it does now, the reason that cite soleil even exists is exclusively thanks to American and French imperialism! 32 coups on the country during its 200 year history and you are talking about how the bourgeois must be benevolent and how we must temporarily forgive them? Well guess what, I wouldn't mind but it will achieve nothing, it will achieve absolutely fuck all, it will make conditions worse and worse for Haitian workers to act like we can all be friends during times of need, it will continuously lead to our defeat in every revolutionary situation that even has a chance of arising to improve their and everyone else's lives.

Do you think that the Nicaraguan workers would be any better off now had they capitulated during their direst time of need, while a revolution was going on? I know there isn't one going on in Haiti, but it's a serious question, should the proletarios faction of the FSLN (who were trying to break away from the FSLN) have chosen to capitulate to the bourgeois? http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/23/newsid_2540000/2540045.stm. I don't support the FSLN government or the faction that initially took power in Nicaragua, however what would it have achieved if the proletarios faction simply capitulated and said "we are a country in need oh let's just let the capitalists in"?

With a nasty, elitist defeatist anti-worker attitude like yours, you are almost worse than a capitalist..

[gorillafuck]

There's a difference between "I'm not going to donate to the Red Cross for political reasons" and discussing the politics and history of Haiti while still donating money.

[Holden Caulfield]

The use of 'myths' in a RAND Corperation policy document (http://www.revleft.com/vb/critical-internation-politics-t123352/index.html?t=123352)

My essay might be of interest to read, its on the subject kinda

[jake williams]

The use of 'myths' in a RAND Corperation policy document (http://www.revleft.com/vb/critical-internation-politics-t123352/index.html?t=123352)

My essay might be of interest to read, its on the subject kinda
Can you explain the basic thesis?

[Glenn Beck]

Can someone explain to me when exactly somebody said that nobody should donate to Haiti via reputable aid orgs like the international red cross for political reasons? Cause I must have missed that.

[Prairie Fire]

There comes a point where no one gives a shit about your politics, shut the fuck up and help some people out.

When it comes to a situation like Haiti, you should spend less time criticizing the people who fucked up in the situation, and actually send some material support to the country. There will be plenty of time to create an angry mob after the roads have been cleared and aid supplied.


:rolleyes:

god forbid, we get "political" about things. Knee-jerk emotional reactions are the only way to respond to this crisis, or any others.

As far as the "aid" is concerned, read-up, or shut up:

http://www.cpcml.ca/Tmld2010/D40011.htm#2

http://theredphoenix.wordpress.com/2010/01/15/analysis-of-the-earthquake-disaster-imperialism-in-haiti/

[Comrade B]

You have a nasty elitist attitude that you would do well to drop.
Really now... and where did you get that...


As others have highlighted, the absolute reason that Haiti suffers like it does now, the reason that cite soleil even exists is exclusively thanks to American and French imperialism! 32 coups on the country during its 200 year history and you are talking about how the bourgeois must be benevolent and how we must temporarily forgive them?
When have I said anything like that? Your post has nothing to do with the one you quoted. Of course countries are poor because of capitalism,

Well guess what, I wouldn't mind but it will achieve nothing, it will achieve absolutely fuck all, it will make conditions worse and worse for Haitian workers to act like we can all be friends during times of need, it will continuously lead to our defeat in every revolutionary situation that even has a chance of arising to improve their and everyone else's lives.
So we should... let people die... I think the Haitian people prefer the presence of aid workers in their country to no outside support. As a communist I believe we should make people's lives better, not force them into corners where their only option is revolution.


Do you think that the Nicaraguan workers would be any better off now had they capitulated during their direst time of need, while a revolution was going on? I know there isn't one going on in Haiti, but it's a serious question, should the proletarios faction of the FSLN (who were trying to break away from the FSLN) have chosen to capitulate to the bourgeois? http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2540045.stm (http://www.anonym.to/?http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/23/newsid_2540000/2540045.stm).
...no... What does this have to do with anything? There are multiple problems facing the Haitian people. There is the long term problem of capitalist intervention, and the immediate problem of people dying. The people aren't having a revolt put down, and there won't be one soon, what, you think the Haitians are going to overthrow US intervention 1st step, now that their country has been totally destroyed?


With a nasty, elitist defeatist anti-worker attitude like yours, you are almost worse than a capitalist..
elitist, defeatist, anti-worker attitude... sure... that is what I have... mind telling me how I am elitist, defeatist, or anti-worker because of this post?

[Martin Blank]

Given that the capitalists are going to try and use the disaster to make further inroads, money should be sent to revolutionary groups with contacts on the island. Batay Ouvriye, a Haitian workers group could probably use funds to help fight, as much as possible, the shock doctrine that the Heritage Foundation is already advocating.

In fact, at this time, we absolutely not drop the politics. The capitalists aren't.

This is from Miami Autonomy and Solidarity

The MAS has been having problems with its PayPal account. So they're now coordinating with the Miami Workers Center to collect donations. You can donate to them through the contact information or donation link on their website -- www.miamiworkerscenter.org (http://www.miamiworkerscenter.org/). Be sure to put "For MAS/BO" in the Name area of the "In Honor Of" section if donating online, or in the Memo area of a check/money order.

The Workers Party in America has a donation link on its front page -- www.workers-party.com (http://www.workers-party.com/) -- to the MWC online donation page, for those who want a one-click option.

The Red Star Society, after numerous failed attempts since last Tuesday to secure space on a means of transportation to the island for supplies, has chosen instead to endorse the efforts of the MAS and MWC to collect funds to send to BO directly.

[genstrike]

elitist, defeatist, anti-worker attitude... sure... that is what I have... mind telling me how I am elitist, defeatist, or anti-worker because of this post?

Maybe it's because you're trying to build a pedastal for yourself out of convincing yourself that everyone else isn't helping and swearing at them? You're trying to cut down everyone talking about Haiti by saying they aren't helping (which isn't true - it doesn't take that long to cut a cheque (which is pretty much all we can do when the disaster is so far away), so it shouldn't significantly cut into people's leisure/reading/foruming/revlefting time. Which is something you've already proven if you've donated by the fact that you also apparently have time to post on revleft) so you can get above them and tell them to "shut the fuck up" - classic elitist behaviour. Maybe because you're telling everyone talking about the political issues in Haiti to "shut the fuck up" and to stop even talking about the problems and trust the government, US military, and various more or less liberal aid agencies to take care of the situation for them? If we can't even talk about the problems in Haiti, we can't fight them, so saying we shouldn't even talk about the issues is inherently defeatist. It's giving up before we've even started thinking about how to fight back.

I'm guessing this thread is the result of trying to compensate for young middle class lefty angst or internet leftist "not doing anything in RL because of no connections to other local lefty activists or movements IRL" angst, you're being extra combative on revleft and trying to create in your mind and on the internet a world where you are the only one doing anything meaningful so you can enjoy the delusion, and hoping for some validation from other revlefters telling you that you're right about this whole "shut the fuck up and help" jazz.

[Devrim]

Who said anyone isn't donating?

I haven't donated any money to this and I don't intend to.

I think that Yazman was right earlier in the thread:


Right, because workers of the world should be footing the bill when most of us have trouble paying our own bills.

It caused quite a lot of moral outrage though:


you have a roof over your head. you have internet access. shut the fuck up.


I doubt you have so much trouble paying your bills you can't spare 5 bucks.

Should the workers of the world really spend every spare 5 bucks that they have paying to save the victims of capitalism's constant disasters because make no mistake these people are the victims of capitalism and not a natural disaster.

If that is what you think maybe you should give all your spare money to the victims of these type of disasters constantly.

Personally if I have any spare money I would rather donate it to political organisations who are fighting to change the world, or striking workers in struggle to change it.

Devrim

[cyu]

When it comes to a situation like Haiti, you should spend less time criticizing the people who fucked up in the situation, and actually send some material support to the country. There will be plenty of time to create an angry mob after the roads have been cleared and aid supplied.

Maybe you should spend less time citicizing leftists on the internet and actually go to Haiti to help out. Are you there yet? Send us a postcard when you get there or you've fixed everything. We'll be waiting.

[Comrade B]

Maybe it's because you're trying to build a pedastal for yourself out of convincing yourself that everyone else isn't helping and swearing at them?
Where did you get that? When I made this post, it was the day (maybe 2 days) after the earthquake. There were 2 other posts which were only talking in tones of rage about how the US is sending in the military. From the perspective of anyone who is not a leftist in the world, that would seem very much like using a crisis to the advantage of your political views.


You're trying to cut down everyone talking about Haiti by saying they aren't helping (which isn't true - it doesn't take that long to cut a cheque (which is pretty much all we can do when the disaster is so far away), so it shouldn't significantly cut into people's leisure/reading/foruming/revlefting time.
immediately after the quake, people needed immediate aid, and not people discouraging people from donating by bringing up the US's involvement in the aid process and making it seem like aid is helping imperialism.


Which is something you've already proven if you've donated by the fact that you also apparently have time to post on revleft) so you can get above them and tell them to "shut the fuck up" - classic elitist behaviour.
elitist... because I am apparently directing this at everyone... and apparently I also believe them to be inferior...
How about being anti-worker? Maybe you could call me counter-revolutionary while you are at it, lets just butcher words to use them as generic insults.
Call me a dick if you want, but don't mangle political words to try to discredit me.


If we can't even talk about the problems in Haiti, we can't fight them, so saying we shouldn't even talk about the issues is inherently defeatist. It's giving up before we've even started thinking about how to fight back.I really hate it when people say the exact same thing someone else said which I already gave a response to...


I'm guessing this thread is the result of trying to compensate for young middle class lefty angst or internet leftist "not doing anything in RL because of no connections to other local lefty activists or movements IRL
I am a member of the Tacoma Socialist Alternative branch. I go to all their meetings I can reach. I also am in charge of organizing on campus. But I am young though, which clearly makes my views pointless.

angst, you're being extra combative on revleft and trying to create in your mind and on the internet a world where you are the only one doing anything meaningful so you can enjoy the delusion, and hoping for some validation from other revlefters telling you that you're right about this whole "shut the fuck up and help" jazz.
Actually, I am extra combative, because I have been called an anti-worker elitist. Don't insult someone and then expect them not to be insulted.

[NecroCommie]

Anyone who demands donations at a media disaster (which Haiti is) is exhibiting some attention hungry behaviour. People die all the time and most leftist barely ever donate during normal circumstances. Why should Haiti be any different? Because it's in TV?

If you have donated, then great. Let the rest of us get on with our lives.

[brigadista]

Are there any viable alternatives to the Red Cross? Not that I boycott them, but I prefer a more worker controlled alternative, if possible.


http://www.msf.org/

[Q]

I haven't donated any money to this and I don't intend to.

I think that Yazman was right earlier in the thread:



It caused quite a lot of moral outrage though:





Should the workers of the world really spend every spare 5 bucks that they have paying to save the victims of capitalism's constant disasters because make no mistake these people are the victims of capitalism and not a natural disaster.

If that is what you think maybe you should give all your spare money to the victims of these type of disasters constantly.

Personally if I have any spare money I would rather donate it to political organisations who are fighting to change the world, or striking workers in struggle to change it.

Devrim
I can see your point. However, how do you propose we should ever organise as a class on an international level if we refuse to do obvious work like this? I think it is only logical to support a working class organisation, like the aforementioned Batay Ouvriye, that not only can carry out direct aid on the ground, but also use the funds to fight for a socialist alternative in Haiti.


Anyone who demands donations at a media disaster (which Haiti is) is exhibiting some attention hungry behaviour.
Media disaster? I'll stay polite here, but to call a disaster in which about 2% of the population of a country died and in which 15% of the population lost their homes a "media disaster" is grossly inadequate. I can see the point you're making though: why help this disaster while ignoring others who are not shown on tv? And you're right in that. I think that socialist aid, combining humanitarian aid with the need to fight for socialism, should become a key point of socialist work.

[Q]

This was just posted on the Socialist Discussion yahoo group, I'm not sure of its source but it is simply a great antidote to all the propaganda of "restoring order" by sending the US troops.




Haiti – The State Apparatus Collapsed Too


When the 7.0 earthquake struck Haiti a little over a week ago, a lot more than buildings and infrastructure collapsed. While the presidential palace crumbled, so did the state infrastructure. In a country as desperately poor as Haiti, and with such revolutionary traditions, first and foremost in importance in this state infrastructure are the forces of repression. These forces – in the form of the police – disappeared entirely from the streets of Port-au-Prince after the earthquake. For US capitalism, this was a terrifying situation.

US “Asserting Authority”
The Obama administration had to act fast. In slightly over a week, it is expected that some 10,000 US troops will have arrived there. Airlifted in with them will be their trucks, fuel, rations, water, and arms. As the Wall St. Journal reported (1/15/10), “Hillary Clinton told Fox News that a chief aim of the US effort was to ‘assert authority’ and to ‘reinstate the government’ in Haiti.”

In this, the US regime is in full accord with the advice of the arch-conservative Heritage Foundation, which advised, “We should rapidly deploy sufficient US military and civilian forces to help Haitians restore order in the capital of Port-au-Prince and in surrounding areas.” They cannot say it openly, but what they mean is that the state authority, first and foremost the forces of repression, must be restored immediately.

This takes priority over providing food, water and medical supplies. Doctors Without Borders, for instance, has complained that five of its planes were refused landing permission at Port-au-Prince and had to divert to Santo Domingo. This included a plane with an entire portable hospital. Benoit Leduc of this doctors’ group said that “hundreds of lives” were lost as a result. Mexican authorities have complained that its planes, also carrying medical equipment and food, were refused landing rights. Venezuela and Cuba haven’t even bothered trying to send planes to Port-au-Prince, knowing that the US military would not allow them to land under any circumstances; they just sent their planes to Santo Domingo also.

US Media Distortions
Over the years, the US corporate-controlled mass media has pictured impoverished Haiti as being violent and nearly ungovernable. They have built up this racist image in order to obscure the extreme measures that imperialism took to repress the self-liberated former slaves of Haiti. These steps included the extortion of some $23 billion (in today’s dollars) by France and the near-20 year occupation of Haiti by US Marines (starting in 1915). Now, they are ratcheting up the propaganda, as images of chaotic and violent crowds fill the media.

Is the emphasis on landing troops and military equipment necessary?

Naturally, after this extended delay, some desperate people will resort to violence, but the overall situation is remarkably different. As al-Jazeera (www.english.aljazeera.net (http://www.english.aljazeera.net/)
) reports: “While there were reports of isolated incidents of violence, for the most part, there was an ‘organized calm’ in the capital.” Even US Lieutenant-General Ken Keen had to admit to al Jazeera that “The level of violence that we see now is below the pre-earthquake levels.” And the Wall St. Journal, written more to keep the heads of corporate America informed than for propaganda purposes, reported (1/19/10), “US officials have blamed security concerns for holding up providing relief. Yet a team of Cuban doctors were seen Monday treating hundreds of patients without a gun or soldier in sight.”

Dr. Evan Lyon of Partners in Health commented to DemocracyNow.org that
“There are no security issues…. I’m staying at a friend’s house in Port-au-Prince. We’re working… as volunteers…. We’ve been circulating throughout the city until 2:00 and 3:00 in the morning every night, evacuating patients, moving materials. There’s no UN guards. There’s no US military presence. There’s no Haitian police presence. And there’s also no violence. There is no insecurity.” By the end of this week, though, there will be plenty of US and UN soldiers on the streets, but clearly their presence is not needed to maintain the rescue efforts. They are there to reinforce the capitalist state authority.

The result is that Port-au-Prince is becoming like a fortress. Sebastien Walker reports to DemocracyNow that where “the United States has taken control(,) it looks more like the Green (militarized) Zone in Baghdad than a center for aid distribution.” A Haitian “man in the street” commented to DemocracyNow that, “These weapons they bring, they are instruments of death. We don’t want them. We don’t need them. We are a traumatized people. What we want from the international community is technical help—action, not words.”

US Capitalism Terrified
This is the unreported reality, and a terrifying one it was to US capitalism. Here you had a country with a long history of struggle. It was not so long ago (2005) that the US helped engineer a coup that ousted a popular leftist president, Jean-Bertrand Aristide, who is now in exile in South Africa. This president had launched a literacy program, funded the building of schools and medical facilities and sharply raised the minimum wage. This last was a real crime since under the leadership of ex-US president Bill Clinton and UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon, the strategy has been to develop Haiti as a source of ultra-cheap labor. Aristide also launched a campaign to recover the $23 billion that France had extorted from it back in 1825.

Even more dangerous was the threat of a Haitian working class mobilizing on its own. The partial example of the 1985 earthquake in Mexico City should be recalled. There, when the state forces failed utterly to provide help, neighborhood committees self-organized and performed their own rescue operations. These committees then became the basis of a community movement that opposed the right-wing national government. The difference with Haiti is that in Mexico the state apparatus did not collapse almost entirely; in Haiti it did. Therefore, in Haiti the danger to capitalism was even greater.

This does not mean that capitalism would have been overthrown overnight, but the danger of this developing over a fairly short time was real. And in any case, they had Aristide waiting in the wings. To have him return to Haiti would compound the problem US capitalism faces throughout Latin America, where a populist movement has put hostile regimes in power in a series of countries. On top of that, US capitalism’s most threatening rival, Chinese capitalism, is making increasing inroads in the region.

Naturally, capitalism cannot allow a state of continual chaos and utter breakdown such as exists in Haiti now. They need a certain amount of stability, a somewhat functioning infrastructure, plus a working class that is not absolutely starving. US capitalism would also be utterly discredited, both at home and abroad, if they stood by, New Orleans-style, and did nothing. Finally, there is the consideration of regimes such as those in Venezuela and Cuba further increasing their influence. Therefore, some rescue and aid measures have to be taken.

The Future
The situation in Haiti bears being closely watched. From afar, it is impossible to tell to what degree the working class is or will organize to assert its class interests in the immediate future. If they do so, clashes with the US and UN troops are likely. However, it must be realized that the US military command is in a risky situation. Many of their troops are black, meaning they will tend to have a sympathy with the Haitian people. Maybe even more important, the troops, including National Guards from Pennsylvania and Florida, are headed for or are already in Haiti. Especially these National Guard troops would be open to considering the needs of their class brothers and sisters in Haiti. A campaign of fraternization with these – as well as the UN troops – would go a long way towards undermining their intended role of repression. (It should be noted that it is extremely unlikely that the Obama administration intends any long-term military occupation of Haiti.)

Several large US unions are now mobilizing to send aid to Haiti. This is being done so far under the control of the established union officialdom. This establishment has a long history of acting as the labor face for the US State Department and even the CIA. They have no intention of breaking with this criminal tradition in this instance. However, in the United States, there are many thousands of Haitian members of these unions. Through these and other active members of the unions, independent teams of US workers could be sent to Haiti. They could be sent both to bring aid as well as to organize direct links between the Haitian workers’ movement and organizations and that in the United States.

In this way, the working class in both countries could start to move forward.

[The Red Next Door]

At the moment, the Haitians do not give a fuck who helps them right now. so why can we be like that?

[The Red Next Door]

You have a nasty elitist attitude that you would do well to drop. As others have highlighted, the absolute reason that Haiti suffers like it does now, the reason that cite soleil even exists is exclusively thanks to American and French imperialism! 32 coups on the country during its 200 year history and you are talking about how the bourgeois must be benevolent and how we must temporarily forgive them? Well guess what, I wouldn't mind but it will achieve nothing, it will achieve absolutely fuck all, it will make conditions worse and worse for Haitian workers to act like we can all be friends during times of need, it will continuously lead to our defeat in every revolutionary situation that even has a chance of arising to improve their and everyone else's lives.

Do you think that the Nicaraguan workers would be any better off now had they capitulated during their direst time of need, while a revolution was going on? I know there isn't one going on in Haiti, but it's a serious question, should the proletarios faction of the FSLN (who were trying to break away from the FSLN) have chosen to capitulate to the bourgeois? http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/23/newsid_2540000/2540045.stm. I don't support the FSLN government or the faction that initially took power in Nicaragua, however what would it have achieved if the proletarios faction simply capitulated and said "we are a country in need oh let's just let the capitalists in"?

With a nasty, elitist defeatist anti-worker attitude like yours, you are almost worse than a capitalist..
You're worst than the capitalist, trying to politicize this incident, Down the road the Haitians will care about the capitalist abuse but right now they don't because they in deep shit and they willing to accept help from the capitalist

[genstrike]

Actually, I am extra combative, because I have been called an anti-worker elitist. Don't insult someone and then expect them not to be insulted.

Might I remind you of the first sentence of the first post in this thread:


There comes a point where no one gives a shit about your politics, shut the fuck up and help some people out.

You were being combative way before anyone called you anything. You started this thread to be combative by starting a thread for the sole purpose of telling everyone to "shut the fuck up"

[NecroCommie]

Media disaster? I'll stay polite here, but to call a disaster in which about 2% of the population of a country died and in which 15% of the population lost their homes a "media disaster" is grossly inadequate.
Ofcourse I don't want to say that it is not an "important" disaster, it's just that this disaster gains a lot of media attention. All important disasters do not gain such things.

[Comrade B]

You were being combative way before anyone called you anything. You started this thread to be combative by starting a thread for the sole purpose of telling everyone to "shut the fuck up"
It is not an insult directed at an individual, it is a common phrase. Accusing someone of being anti-communist is a bit more of a dick move than being rude.