Why not stop at socialism?

[Invincible Summer]

I haven't really thought about this that much until my friend asked me - why are all (if not most of us) communists? Why don't we settle with socialism?

I was thinking this: if we define socialism as a period where the economy is democratically controlled by the proletariat, yet there is still the existence of a state structure and a wage/wage-like system as well as a lack of material abundance (from each according to his deed), then inequality still exists in some form. We are against all forms of inequality, and thus strive for the classless, stateless system that is communism to form the basis of an egalitarian society.

[Tablo]

Why do a job only half way?
Besides, even if most the left decided it was happy with just that, the Anarchists would still fight for Communism. A Socialist state(if that is even possible) is not good enough for me.

[FSL]

There is still class struggle in socialism. You can't "stop".

[whore]

freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice and socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality.


while hierarchy still exists, not everyone can be truely free.

[the last donut of the night]

It's not a matter of 'stopping'. The whole idea that we revolutionaries somehow drive history is a bit absurd. Classes do that, my friend. Our only job is correctly analyzing history and helping the proletariat fulfill its goals: the abolition of the capitalistic system, which as you know, is completely oppressive.

So when socialism is instituted, by a violent revolution in the hands of the proletariat, our job will not be to 'stop'. Our job will be to do fully away with the state because it itself is an organ of class rule. It still oppresses people; it still means there are different class interests antagonistic enough to keep a state going. Finally, when these begin to disappear (by either the bourgeoisie being completely exterminated or just assimilating and bowing down to the socialist state) so will the state.

We push for communism because it is the least oppressive way to organize society.

[Axle]

Well shit, if you're not going to do a thing right, its not worth doing at all.

[Guerrilla22]

Well if you're a Marxist, you beleive that communism is just something that will occur as a natural stage in history as socialism will be the natural stage that follows bourgeois rule.

[ZeroNowhere]

It would appear that, by 'socialism', you mean the dictatorship of the proletariat, which is the political rule of the proletariat during revolution. The reason that wages and the state still exist is that capitalism still exists, and the proletariat has to represent its interest as the general interest in order to overthrow it. Stopping in the middle of overthrowing it, and instead just sitting around maintaining capitalism, sounds pretty silly. If you mean a communist society using labour credits (the 'first phase of communism' in Marx), then it doesn't have a wage system or state structure.

[F9]

Because socialism is a piece of the same shit?Its just a differential of the ruling class, oppressions still exists, discrimination still exists, foundations will be build on wrong ideas, which will collapse in the end, and the capies who will be the "oppressed class" will in time revolt too, and get back what they had.
By retaining socialism you give counter revolutionaries the power and moral strength to keep fighting you, you even give them their weapons.
Also by retaining socialism, and the state, you retain positions of power and ruling, which 1000% always led to corruption, so even if the cappies never revolt against it, a new rulling class will be made above the proletariats again, the ones with power.


Fuserg9:star:

[robbo203]

I haven't really thought about this that much until my friend asked me - why are all (if not most of us) communists? Why don't we settle with socialism?

I was thinking this: if we define socialism as a period where the economy is democratically controlled by the proletariat, yet there is still the existence of a state structure and a wage/wage-like system as well as a lack of material abundance (from each according to his deed), then inequality still exists in some form. We are against all forms of inequality, and thus strive for the classless, stateless system that is communism to form the basis of an egalitarian society.

Well it wouldnt be socialism if you still have a wages system but this depends on your definition of "socialism". I subscribe the classical marxian understanding of term socialism as an alternative word for communism. They mean the same thing.

But more to the point, if you are stuck with a wages system (capitalism) and still have a state, then those who control this state - even the so called "proletarian" state - would have no option but to run this system of "socialism" (meaning really, capitalism, and mostly likely, state capitalism), in the interests of the capitalist class (you cannot have a proletariat without a capitalist class and vice versa)

In other words this proletarian state would become a formidable obstacle to socialism and would very soon show its true capitalist colours in having to run this system in the only in which it could be run - against the interests of the proletariat

[Revy]

A market is a system of exchange between buyers and sellers. When you have wages and prices you have a market. Just something to consider.

I support moneyless socialism.

[Raúl Duke]

Why don't we settle with socialism?


Being an anarchist (and a strong proponent of direct democracy), I say that's for the people to decide in their communes/neighborhood assemblies/worker's councils. If they want to "settle with [some form of] socialism (in the economic sense of that word)" then so be it.

But as long as I'm alive I will be continuously advocating, as an equal to all citizens in the same political organs I mentioned, for communism.

[scarletghoul]

Pfft, why the fuck stop at socialism ?? Doesn't the idea of a completely free classless stateless society appeal to you at all ??

The only reason I'm into all this communism shit is because I want to help make the world completely free from oppression, alienation, boredom etc for every person. If not for that prospect of a truly free world I wouldn't give a shit about Marxism, Maoism, and all the rest of socialist political theory.

I want a world where everyone can be an artist and appreciate the beauty of things. Not a world where everyone is a worker that lasts forever. That would fucking suck as an end goal. The whole socialist stage is only a strategic thing to me. Its not an ideal at all

[Pirate Utopian]

The thing with socialism is that it should lead to classlessness and the state would eventually less and less relevant and therefore wither away and it would turn into communism.

So with class society being a source of trouble and inequality we strive to rid ourselves of it which is what socialism is for but once class society is gone, communism is in sight and if we keep up this classlessness it would be logical result.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

Communism is seen as the logical outcome of the abolition of relative scarcity, not some idealist act of will. What need for any sort of remuneration is there if production were to be almost entirely automated? The only way to "stop at socialism" would be to hold back humanities productive forces.

As far as a state structure, for Marx there is no state in either the lower phase("socialism") or higher phase of communism. Even the dictatorship of the proletariat isn't a state in any real sense.

[Winter]

That would be like corporatism stopping at capitalism, capitalism can benefit the bourgeois but corporatism can benefit them even more!

If you're on a roll towards a good thing keep trucking until you get there, especially if that means complete liberation for the working class by destroying the concept of class! :)

[Invincible Summer]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not the one that thinks that socialism is a fine place to stop, but I had just never thought that anyone considered it to be an end goal. I just thought I'd bring up the question so that we could have a bit of input as to why socialism should/can not be the end result of class struggle. I think it's good for people who are still learning (all of us)

[Kassad]

My brothers, the great janeral maximus beseeches ye. THE STRONG GOVERNMENT has no class. THE STRONG GOVERNMENT has all of the freedom and equality that Communism tries so hard to have. janeral has called upon us to FORM THE STRONG GOVERNMENT. Open your heart to janeral maximus, and you, too, can hear this calling. FORM THE STRONG GOVERNMENT!!!

Please don't spam. Consider this a verbal warning.