Ageism and Teenage Leftists

[AK]

Would you consider the attitudes of adults and conservatives towards revolutionary leftists to be ageist? A majority (or at least a sizable minority) of Anarchists and Communists in western society are in their teens or early 20s. Its around this time that the stereotype of 'rebellious teenagers' kicks in so many leftist's political tendencies are immediately dismissed as some sort of infantile sickness. The question is, do you consider this anti-Leftist sentiment to be ageist?

[Weezer]

Yes.

[Chambered Word]

Certainly. It irritates me every time some dipshit goes 'hurr ur a teenager, u have no opinyunz' (which has the logical value in an argument of 'you're wrong because your hair is brown').

[NecroCommie]

Certainly. It irritates me every time some dipshit goes 'hurr ur a teenager, u have no opinyunz' (which has the logical value in an argument of 'you're wrong because your hair is brown').
I love you! That's so dead on! :D

[Woyzeck]

Would you consider the attitudes of adults and conservatives towards revolutionary leftists to be ageist? A majority (or at least a sizable minority) of Anarchists and Communists in western society are in their teens or early 20s. Its around this time that the stereotype of 'rebellious teenagers' kicks in so many leftist's political tendencies are immediately dismissed as some sort of infantile sickness. The question is, do you consider this anti-Leftist sentiment to be ageist?

Yes. It's a convenient way for many older people to dismiss unsettling or challenging ideas. In my experience the repeat offenders are usually former leftists themselves seeking to justify their pathetic retreat from a revolutionary perspective to a liberal one. Some subconscious envy of youthfulness probably underpins it all.

[dlm86]

mostly.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Well I'm in my 30s and I still get that shit from people only a few years older. Keep in mind it's just one of many stereotypes about the left and when people give you that just tell them that you accept their "You're not old enough to know what it's REALLY like"-argument as an admission that they can not logically and politically defeat your positions so they have to resort to condescension.

[Chambered Word]

Well I'm in my 30s and I still get that shit from people only a few years older. Keep in mind it's just one of many stereotypes about the left and when people give you that just tell them that you accept their "You're not old enough to know what it's REALLY like"-argument as an admission that they can not logically and politically defeat your positions so they have to resort to condescension.

You're in your 30s and you still get that shit? :sneaky:

Looks like I'm in for a rough ride.

[Nwoye]

I guess it exists but it's really not a big deal.

"gosh its so unfair that I'm discriminated against cuz Im a young leftist. It's so oppressive"

*palestinian is murdered by Israeli military*

[The Red Next Door]

yeah, but who cares what those old fucks think?:rolleyes:

[Weezer]

I guess it exists but it's really not a big deal.

"gosh its so unfair that I'm discriminated against cuz Im a young leftist. It's so oppressive"

*palestinian is murdered by Israeli military*

If leftism is put-upon and being called simply a infantile disorder, how is that not a problem?

[Invincible Summer]

yeah, but who cares what those old fucks think?:rolleyes:

The Irony.



Anyways, I dislike how some on this forum refer to anarchists as "anarkiddies," as I feel this too is a form of ageist discrimination

[the last donut of the night]

Yes, I hate the ageism.

Having your views (usually more nuanced and complicated than the surrounding ones at school, for example) being put down because of your age is very annoying.

[Leaf]

It's so common it's unbelievable. We can see it's embarassing for the age discriminator, pity they can't. Really, it points toward your opponent being wrong since they aren't thinking very open mindedly.

Even from a 'objective' persons' view, a young person being a revolutionary leftist should be evidence that they can think for themselves since it is not a mainstream point of view, if you know what I mean.

[AK]

The age discriminators must really suck at contributing to good arguements if they can only find fault in our ideals because of our age.

[*Viva La Revolucion*]

It's a funny thing about ageism. If teenagers are apolitical they get called apathetic and lazy, if they take an interest in politics and the world around them then they're called naive. So basically what conservative (& more moderate) adults want is for the younger generation to agree with them and if they don't, it must be because of their age.

I think younger people (sometimes) are more likely to have a clearer view of politics because they're at a stage in their lives when they're starting to question everything that everyone else just accepts without criticism. So in fact teenage leftists have a lot to offer and it's ridiculous to dismiss their opinions.

["Red Scum"]

I don't think its so much leftist views being considered immature, as the immature way some admittedly immature "leftist" teenagers behave.

A few bad eggs spoil the whole lot, it takes 100 well reasoned leftists to win some respect, but only 1 to do equivalent scaled damage.

[ZeroNowhere]

Not really, socialism is generally seen as 'naive' or the product of some rebellious phase regardless of how socialists behave.

["Red Scum"]

Not really, socialism is generally seen as 'naive' or the product of some rebellious phase regardless of how socialists behave.

Want to explain why Britain is currently run by a (despite the way they behave) self described socialist party in that case?

[RED DAVE]

Coming from the generation that invented the term, "Don't trust anyhone over 30!" (Jack Weinberg, who actually coined the phrase, was once a comrade of mine.) I can understand the frustration of young comrades. To condescend to them; to refuse to engage them in discussion; to refuse to take them seriously; all these are very serious mistakes of older comrades. There is no reason to put up with that kind of shit. I'm not even going to deal with burned-out cases, cynics, etc., who are trying to get you to sell out like they did. Just ignore them.

Let me say this, though. And hopefully this doesn't become a rant.

(1) I find among younger comrades a lot of ignorance. Part of this comes from not having engaged in much left wing practice and not having older comrades around to be taught by. But, for openers, it also comes from that fact that they have not been diligent in reading or, when they read, they don't hold a critical attitude to what they are reading.

(2) I also find a lot of arrogance. Some of us geezers have not only been around for awhile growing our guts and watching our hair get grey. We were reading Marx before the younger comrades were born, and some of us have had some significant experiences that are worth learning from. Some of us haven't sold out. You don't have to, in fact you shouldn't, agree with everything we say, but listen. Then try to rip us to shreds; I dare you.

(3) Individualism is a fine thing. I fancy myself one too. But it is not the be all and end all of left wing politics, not even or anarchism. The experience of working with a group, helping to build it, going through the details of hammering out program, developing tactics and strategy is irreplaceable. You must go through it. You must become part of the discipline of a group, the comraderie, the faction fights and learn from those experiences. This takes time. It requires discipline, and it builds discipline.

So don't trust anyone over 30, make that over 40, no make that over 50, no make that over 60, no make that over 70.

I need a nap. :D

RED DAVE

[*Viva La Revolucion*]

Want to explain why Britain is currently run by a (despite the way they behave) self described socialist party in that case?

I doubt many people associate Labour with socialism. Although it describes itself as such, it has made a conscious effort to distance itself from the term (eg through the 'third way') and besides, a surprising number of voters don't even research the party's ideology before voting.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Want to explain why Britain is currently run by a (despite the way they behave) self described socialist party in that case?
When's the last time you heard Gordon Brown, or any senior Labour figure, describe themselves as being a socialist?

["Red Scum"]

When's the last time you heard Gordon Brown, or any senior Labour figure, describe themselves as being a socialist?

1995, but thats far from the point. The point was that (in Britain at least) the big S word isn't associated with immaturity. I don't know about the rest of the western world but I've never seen the single minded obsession with socialism being the big bad guys that Americans hold.

Typical American Idiot : Obama is a socialist?
Educated Person : No, hes not
Typical American Idiot : He is!
Educated Person : How?
Typical American Idiot : errrrr......
Educated Person : And even if he was, whats wrong with that?
Typical American Idiot : Socialism is wrong!
Educated Person : Why?
Typical American Idiot : errrrr......

:rolleyes:

[mastershake16]

It's always America.

nice....nice....

["Red Scum"]

It's always America.

nice....nice....

Yeah, when it comes to red scares it does tend to be America that flips out.

[RadioRaheem84]

Funny how most of the older people that tell me I am too young and naive, tend to be Christian, capitalist and patriotic.

So Marx is outdated? Well what about the Bible?

So Socialism is impractical? But giving everything to the rich to have their wonderful spoils trickle down to us is practical?

For all they complain about political corruption they sure fundamentally believe in the system! Somehow it's always something from outside the system and never the system itself.

C'mon, I love gramps but he's set in his ways and doesn't want to hear anything otherwise. Yeah I am going to give up my "naive" beliefs in favor of religion, an economic system that favors the rich over me and patroitism that asks people to die for these concepts. :rolleyes:

[RadioRaheem84]

When's the last time you heard Gordon Brown, or any senior Labour figure, describe themselves as being a socialist?

But then why are they attending Socialist International or European Union Socialist Alliance conferences if they don't identify themselves as socialists?

[Belisarius]

now that we're talking about patriotism and capitalism, i have a simple way of showing the contradiction:
1)capitalism is based on the individuals desire to get profit and advantages (most even believe this is human nature)
2)patriotism wants you to put the "good" of your country before your own good
so) patriotism is against human nature as capitalism portrays it.:confused:

[RadioRaheem84]

now that we're talking about patriotism and capitalism, i have a simple way of showing the contradiction:
1)capitalism is based on the individuals desire to get profit and advantages (most even believe this is human nature)
2)patriotism wants you to put the "good" of your country before your own good
so) patriotism is against human nature as capitalism portrays it.:confused:

Well, most Americans view capitalism or free markets from the lens of "free enterprise" which includes a complex network of worker citizens, owners and politicians. The collaboration between these classes is what makes the country work. So Americans tend to respect private enterprise and individual initiative only so far and it doesn't impede on the rest of us to continue the system. That's why a lot of conservative Americans dislike certain elements of finance capitalism that are unproductive and cause booms and busts. The "good of the country" means the continuation of the free enterprise system and anything ( socialism, greedy monopolistic corporations, wal street casino ventures, welfare state, etc) that gets in the way of that is considered unpatriotic.

[Kaze no Kae]

The Irony.
He was obviously being satirical...

Love the name by the way, Percy Shelley ftw ^^;

[laplace]

In my opinion, leftism is strongly related with age. Because leftism requires struggle and activism. Elderly people cannot fight, so their ideas change depend on that. Parents have to earn money to live but children don't have to earn money, they can participate in intellectual activities.

[AK]

In my opinion, leftism is strongly related with age. Because leftism requires struggle and activism. Elderly people cannot fight, so their ideas change depend on that. Parents have to earn money to live but children don't have to earn money, they can participate in intellectual activities.
Yeah, I'd also say workers have been victims of capitalist indoctrination.

[blake 3:17]

I had a recent conversation with my mom about politics. I reminded her that she used to tell me if you're not a socialist when you're twenty you have no brains, if you are a socialist when you're thirty you have no brains. I told her I very clearly had no brains then.


Because leftism requires struggle and activism. Elderly people cannot fight, so their ideas change depend on that.

Age does tend to conservatize people. In the Left I operate in, a whole whack of retirees play very important roles, both as leaders and folks doing basic drudge work. One of the signs of a healthy left is it being multigenerational, with genuine communication between generations. Writing people off because of their age -- in any direction -- is stupid and snobby.

I got involved in radical politics when the class struggle was at a very low ebb. I'd be at a protest and be totally confused by the retired auto workers handing out coffee and hot chocolate, and letting people warm up in their van. They knew what pickets were about, and they wanted them as effective as possible. No interference, just practical solidarity.

[JAH23]

What sucks is when you're debating someone much older than you (I'm 18), and you then mention "Oh, I'm not a liberal, I'm a Socialist", and they simply say "Oh, Socialism will never work!" And the debate is no more :(

[RadioRaheem84]

What sucks is when you're debating someone much older than you (I'm 18), and you then mention "Oh, I'm not a liberal, I'm a Socialist", and they simply say "Oh, Socialism will never work!" And the debate is no more :(

Or they ask, "whats the difference"?

[JAH23]

Or they ask, "whats the difference"?

My Grandfather called Obama a "Marxist", and my mother agreed with him. I later had an argument with her and asked why she thought this. Her argument was simply "Because of the bailouts". After laughing on the inside I calmly explained why the bailouts, or any of Obama's policies are certainly not Marxist.

I did good in the world that day.

[ArrowLance]

Really? No, 'ageism' is usually only an issue when the teenager (myself being one) really is being naive and stupid. Many teenagers are just being rebellious, probably even a great deal of them here (dare I say. . . even this thread). I seldom get any sort of ageism when I am actually providing viable arguments.

However that doesn't stop them from saying 'in theory/in practice' or one of those other ingrained responses.

[ArrowLance]

I had a recent conversation with my mom about politics. I reminded her that she used to tell me if you're not a socialist when you're twenty you have no brains, if you are a socialist when you're thirty you have no brains. I told her I very clearly had no brains then.

Well as far as I know, the saying is supposed to go, 'If you aren't a socialist when you are twenty you have no heart; if you are still a socialist when you are thirty you have no brains.'

[JAH23]

I seldom get any sort of ageism when I am actually providing viable arguments.
.

Agreed. If you sound intelligent, and actually provide seemingly intelligent arguments, adults will surely listen to you.

It's only when kids start blabbing off about the "corrupt government!", but can't provide any argument that the ageism sets in.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I love the argument of "your communist views are just a phase. You'll outgrow them once you realize what it's like out in the real world"(:rolleyes:). I just laugh in their face. That's when leftist politics should matter because that's where most people are generally being oppressed!

[JAH23]

I love the argument of "your communist views are just a phase. You'll outgrow them once you realize what it's like out in the real world"(:rolleyes:). I just laugh in their face. That's when leftist politics should matter because that's where most people are generally being oppressed!

Agh! I hate that! "Your atheism, socialism, and basically all your core individual beliefs are just a phase!"

Translation: "I can't think of anything to refute you".

[ArrowLance]

Agreed. If you sound intelligent, and actually provide seemingly intelligent arguments, adults will surely listen to you.

It's only when kids start blabbing off about the "corrupt government!", but can't provide any argument that the ageism sets in.

And is it not due at that point?

[JAH23]

And is it not due at that point?

Oh, of course it is. But, not necessarily ageism, but just lack of respect. If an older person said those words to me, I would just not respect their argument, or their beliefs.

[Chambered Word]

Agreed. If you sound intelligent, and actually provide seemingly intelligent arguments, adults will surely listen to you.

It's only when kids start blabbing off about the "corrupt government!", but can't provide any argument that the ageism sets in.

It's practically the opposite with my father. If I go ranted about how our government is fucked and how politicians are a bunch of greedy pricks, I gain approval. Whenever I mention communism it's a different story, and after he loses the argument he walks off bitterly, usually making remarks about my age. :lol:

[HamishFTW]

Age only seems to be brought into the issue if the other person doesn't like the fact that they've been beaten by a snot nosed little twerp.