Exploitophobia ?

[punisa]

Sure, its a made up word, but I think I have it :laugh:
Do you think, from a psychological viewpoint, that some of us might "suffer" difficulties in life because we are very aware of the exploitation element that is a part of every modern job?

We are all anti capitalists here, but we still must survive in a capitalist world.
Just recently I turned down a rather good paying job because I don't care for the money and refuse to get exploited by anyone.
And this isn't the first time either, I had problems with obedience long before I actually became interested in socialist thought.

I simply end up with a much more difficult path in life, but even when it gets "ubber" hard I'm kinda happy to be boss-less, at least free from the immediate boss in your workplace, I'm very aware that there are millions of authorities that keep us from being free in our everyday life.

Could thus "Exploitophobia" be a term? :p
And should one try to cure himself from it?
There certainly are some drawbacks, for example you get a bit alienated from the absence of any work colleagues and such.

I know that this is pretty psychological question, but this subforum seems like an adequate place to post this topic:)
Give me your thoughts.

[danny bohy]

Haha definately now calling my self and exploitophobic. and one should not try to cure himself of it.

[punisa]

Haha definately now calling my self and exploitophobic. and one should not try to cure himself of it.
Welcome to the club comrade :D

[ls]

Personally, the only thing I've ever turned down was a kind of open job offer at a bookies. Seeing people in a bad situation spend all their money on shit like horses and being the one that takes it sucks.

[punisa]

Personally, the only thing I've ever turned down was a kind of open job offer at a bookies. Seeing people in a bad situation spend all their money on shit like horses and being the one that takes it sucks.

That too. "Exploitophobia" I mentioned goes beyond simply being exploited yourself, doing a job that exploits others (manipulates, tricks or whatever) also counts.

[mikelepore]

Yes, we make ourselves miserable, but we do it because we have the intelligence to compare the way things are today with the way things potentially could be. Conservatives artificially make themselves happy by comparing the present to the past. They say, "Hundreds of years ago, people didn't have plumbing or electricity. If you wanted to wash your face in hot water, you had to hike to the stream to get some water, and chop firewood to heat it.....", etc. They feel lucky because the comparison they make is always with a worse condition of deprivation. But we know that, now that we're in the age of automation, the comparison we should be making is between the present reality and the full potential of automation in an efficiently organized social system.

[Yazman]

I understand what you mean punisa. There have been times in my life where I would rather be unemployed.

[Dr Mindbender]

no, being unemployed is never the better state of affairs. Furthermore remaining in voluntary unemployment is a kick in the bollocks to those that genuinely want work and cant get it. Youre going to be exploited to a greater or lesser extent no matter what form of employment you enter so ffs just swallow your pride and get on with it. Lifes shit and nasty, we live in a capitalist system. I hate to break it to you but unfortunately the revolution hasnt happened yet. Nor will it happen if leftists avoid jobs and remain out of workplace agitation.

I was going to throw the cat amongst the pigeons and say youre all just workshy but id probably get an infraction for flaming or some shit.

Im guessing the work sceptics in this thread have never been in a situation where theyve been forced to live off benefit and have well to do mummies and daddies to run to. My god, you're such stereotypes.

[Dr Mindbender]

Personally, the only thing I've ever turned down was a kind of open job offer at a bookies. Seeing people in a bad situation spend all their money on shit like horses and being the one that takes it sucks.
If you want to take this reductionist train of thought theres lots of other jobs you could whittle down. Cant stand people in a bad situation waste their money on booze? Guess that bar work or off licence work out the window. Cant stand people wasting their money on asinine clothes shopping? Guess thats the fashion retail industry out too. Hate seeing people comfort eat, gorging themselves stupid? Guess thats grocery retail out to... etc.

[ls]

If you want to take this reductionist train of thought theres lots of other jobs you could whittle down. Cant stand people in a bad situation waste their money on booze? Guess that bar work or off licence work out the window. Cant stand people wasting their money on asinine clothes shopping? Guess thats the fashion retail industry out too. Hate seeing people comfort eat, gorging themselves stupid? Guess thats grocery retail out to... etc.

You could make those comparisons, but I wouldn't. To me it's just betting and the fact that specifically poor people go mad with money; my friend who works at a ladbrokes has told me that it's not a nice feeling when a working-class guy comes in with money, looking desperate and decides to blow it all away. So yeah I don't really know or care what it's comparable with, it's probably quite stupid of me but then I never said otherwise. I'd take a lot of jobs really, but there are always exceptions. After all, if you have an aversion to working in an abbatoir because you personally find it revolting, who the fuck am I to say "all jobs are revolting so get on with it"?

[Yazman]

no, being unemployed is never the better state of affairs. Furthermore remaining in voluntary unemployment is a kick in the bollocks to those that genuinely want work and cant get it. Youre going to be exploited to a greater or lesser extent no matter what form of employment you enter so ffs just swallow your pride and get on with it. Lifes shit and nasty, we live in a capitalist system. I hate to break it to you but unfortunately the revolution hasnt happened yet. Nor will it happen if leftists avoid jobs and remain out of workplace agitation.

I was going to throw the cat amongst the pigeons and say youre all just workshy but id probably get an infraction for flaming or some shit.

Im guessing the work sceptics in this thread have never been in a situation where theyve been forced to live off benefit and have well to do mummies and daddies to run to. My god, you're such stereotypes.

You just watch what you say around here before throwing out bullshit comments like this. You shouldn't make assumptions and ridiculous conclusions based on nothing, especially when you're liable to offend people with such utter crap. I've been supporting myself for a long time, living from paycheck to paycheck for years now agitating as much as I can, so don't you fucking dare say that shit to me.

[Dr Mindbender]

You just watch what you say around here before throwing out bullshit comments like this. You shouldn't make assumptions and ridiculous conclusions based on nothing, especially when you're liable to offend people with such utter crap. I've been supporting myself for a long time, living from paycheck to paycheck for years now agitating as much as I can, so don't you fucking dare say that shit to me.

Oh dear, hit a raw nerve did i?

Its not my remit to offend anyone, but it simultaneously bemuses and depresses me to read threads like this.

Having the option to simply refuse work suggests the privilege of choice. Due to the material circumstances of nearly every worker and wage slave i know, including myself, thats simply not a privilege synomonous with my circumstances or those like me.

If its one you have, then bully for you. Good luck connecting with the international working class.

[Yazman]

Oh dear, hit a raw nerve did i?

Its not my remit to offend anyone, but it simultaneously bemuses and depresses me to read threads like this.

Having the option to simply refuse work suggests the privilege of choice. Due to the material circumstances of nearly every worker and wage slave i know, including myself, thats simply not a privilege synomonous with my circumstances or those like me.

If its one you have, then bully for you. Good luck connecting with the international working class.

Did you even read my fuckin post? I said that I've been living paycheck to paycheck for years now. How the fuck does that mean privilege of choice?


I've been supporting myself for a long time, living from paycheck to paycheck for years now agitating as much as I can


There have been times in my life where I would rather be unemployed.

I never once said I had the option to refuse work. I said there's been times in my life where I'd rather be unemployed, that doesn't mean I've EVER had the option to, or actually made that choice. It means I've FELT that way.

I don't know if you realise this, but feelings usually don't translate into reality. If they did, the entire world and its history would be very different.

I already told you to quit making stupid fucking assumptions. By heaping EVEN MORE assumptions on the ones you've already made you just make your posts more nonsensical than they already are.

[bcbm]

no, being unemployed is never the better state of affairs.

this really isn't always the case.


I was going to throw the cat amongst the pigeons and say youre all just workshy

what's wrong with that?


Im guessing the work sceptics in this thread have never been in a situation where theyve been forced to live off benefit and have well to do mummies and daddies to run to. My god, you're such stereotypes.

or maybe they're just more clever than you and can figure out other ways to survive?

[Dr Mindbender]

Did you even read my fuckin post? I said that I've been living paycheck to paycheck for years now. How the fuck does that mean privilege of choice?
sorry, must be a coloquial turn of phrase i'm not used to.

Living from payday to payday does not exclude the possibility that youre fortunate enough to choose what work you want so i really dont know why youre being so aggressive.



or maybe they're just more clever than you and can figure out other ways to survive?
Theres a difference between surviving and living.

[bcbm]

Theres a difference between surviving and living.

having more free time allows for more living.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

no, being unemployed is never the better state of affairs.
Really? Really? So if you had a choice between being unemployed, being a copper and joining the army, you wouldn't remain unemployed? If you had a choice between being unemployed and having a part-time low-paid job that paid less than the dole, you'd take the job even though it would mean becoming poorer?

Furthermore remaining in voluntary unemployment is a kick in the bollocks to those that genuinely want work and cant get it.
And applying for jobs makes life harder for those that genuinely want work, because it means there's more competition.

Youre going to be exploited to a greater or lesser extent no matter what form of employment you enter so ffs just swallow your pride and get on with it.
Again, that means you should become a soldier? A cop? Accept shitty part-time minimum wage jobs that won't bring you any economic benefit?


Theres a difference between surviving and living.
This is true. I don't think that spending 40 hours a week doing something you hate is that much more dignified a way of life than surviving on benefits is. Get a critique of the work ethic already.

[Dr Mindbender]

Really? Really? So if you had a choice between being unemployed, being a copper and joining the army, you wouldn't remain unemployed?
Fortunately I've never been faced with that dichotomy. Not that the forces would take me anyway because my health is so shit. During times of job scarcity, i always go to recruitment agencies. While not fully reliable, they provide some cash buffer in hard times.

I've lived on both wages and benefits. I can safely say i'd take wages everytime.


If you had a choice between being unemployed and having a part-time low-paid job that paid less than the dole, you'd take the job even though it would mean becoming poorer?

I wouldnt go for part time; i'd go for a full time job.

If you put in 40 hours a week you'll comfortably pay your bills and still have a lot more than the dole money left over.



Again, that means you should become a soldier? A cop? Accept shitty part-time minimum wage jobs that won't bring you any economic benefit?
Whats the fixation with part time work?


This is true. I don't think that spending 40 hours a week doing something you hate is that much more dignified a way of life than surviving on benefits is.
Well its fortunate that those that are too thick to swallow their pride and remain in full time employment, doing things they hate, like cleaning sewers and emptying bins otherwise the streets would be laden with plague and dysentry.
:rolleyes:

[Dr Mindbender]

having more free time allows for more living.
how do you plan to pay for it?

[bcbm]

how do you plan to pay for it?

pay for what? its possible to live without needing much money. if you do need money, there are always plenty of ways to get some.

[Dr Mindbender]

pay for what? its possible to live without needing much money. if you do need money, there are always plenty of ways to get some.

Other than work in the bona fide paid sense, i'm struggling to think of many ways that dont involve being either insanely lucky or risking prison.

[bcbm]

Other than work in the bona fide paid sense, i'm struggling to think of many ways that dont involve being either insanely lucky or risking prison.

that's probably why you work.

[ls]

Dr Mindbender has a point, we do need to work in order to survive. I can't really survive properly on the dole like this, it is incredibly hard and the vast majority of others on it would agree, who could possibly survive on 40 a week after all?

Most of those unemployed AND not on the dole would agree too, if you asked most of them, so I think he is making a fair point, albeit in a slightly insulting way.

[bcbm]

obviously we have to do any number of things in our struggle to live in this society, including work, but i don't think those who refuse to work certain jobs or figure out ways to live without work are all privileged or "workshy," though if it is the latter i don't see why it is a bad thing.

[Dr Mindbender]

the big picture is, if everyone took the attitude 'work is for suckers' then the entire social infrastructure would fall apart.

Some genuinely find work fulfilling because they serve a purpose in the running of society. I'm not a big fan of the welfare state in any case. I'm more of a 'tough love' socialist. To me, welfare is to unemployment what charity is to global famine. In an abundancy society, there would be an abundancy of jobs as well as goods.

[Ravachol]

obviously we have to do any number of things in our struggle to live in this society, including work, but i don't think those who refuse to work certain jobs or figure out ways to live without work are all privileged or "workshy," though if it is the latter i don't see why it is a bad thing.

The problem here is the notion of 'work'. I don't see 'workshy' as being a problem, I do see being 'laborshy' as being a problem. In an post-revolutionary society labor would still be an integral part of daily life and, in my (and Kropotkin's) opinion, a set ammount of labor would be demanded from every able person as their fair contribution to society. I don't fetishise labor for labor's sake, but I do think performing labor is an obligation toward an open and free, self-managed society.

[bcbm]

the big picture is, if everyone took the attitude 'work is for suckers' then the entire social infrastructure would fall apart.

...so?


Some genuinely find work fulfilling because they serve a purpose in the running of society.

that's good for them. i don't want to keep this society running, let alone have a purpose in doing so.


The problem here is the notion of 'work'. I don't see 'workshy' as being a problem, I do see being 'laborshy' as being a problem. In an post-revolutionary society labor would still be an integral part of daily life and, in my (and Kropotkin's) opinion, a set ammount of labor would be demanded from every able person as their fair contribution to society. I don't fetishise labor for labor's sake, but I do think performing labor is an obligation toward an open and free, self-managed society.

i think in a post-revolutionary, open and free society, there wouldn't be any need for "obligations" or "demands" of labor.

[Patchd]

I've never turned down a job, but I do get pretty depressed at the thought of the society we live in sometimes.

EDIT: Oh actually I have, I turned down a job to be a rentboy to some old guy who hadn't been in England for a while and was going to pay me 300 quid to suck me off, I told him to fuck off.

[Dr Mindbender]

...so?
Just because we dont agree with the way society is run and wealth is distributed at the moment, doesnt mean we should invoke or celebrate a social catastrophe.
Have you any idea how many people would go sick and hungry if everyone simply 'stopped working'?




that's good for them. i don't want to keep this society running, let alone have a purpose in doing so.
Neither do i want to keep this sort of society running.

But there are already progressive institutions in existance that will still have a role post-revolution. Britain's NHS being the textbook example.




i think in a post-revolutionary, open and free society, there wouldn't be any need for "obligations" or "demands" of labor.
Well i personally subscribe to the technocracy model of post revolutionary society in which our definitions and understanding of labour will change.

Labour will be orientated around the things which inspire our passion and intellect, not mere chores that we resent being co-erced into doing.

[cska]

Isn't it possible to avoid some but not all jobs? For example, if you were hired to spy on communists, would you accept that job?

Anyways, I'm still in college, but I certainly have exploitophobia.

[bcbm]

Just because we dont agree with the way society is run and wealth is distributed at the moment, doesnt mean we should invoke or celebrate a social catastrophe.
Have you any idea how many people would go sick and hungry if everyone simply 'stopped working'?

how many people typical go sick and hungry during a general strike? what's the difference between everyone simply stopping work and a general strike? if you bring up something about politics or demands, i think at the point where everyone could stop working simultaneously, then we're already past that.


Neither do i want to keep this sort of society running.

But there are already progressive institutions in existance that will still have a role post-revolution. Britain's NHS being the textbook example.

i don't know much about the nhs but i imagine that it, like just about everything else, will change massively "post-revolution."


Well i personally subscribe to the technocracy model of post revolutionary society in which our definitions and understanding of labour will change.

Labour will be orientated around the things which inspire our passion and intellect, not mere chores that we resent being co-erced into doing.

who's going to work in the mines?

[ls]

Just because we dont agree with the way society is run and wealth is distributed at the moment, doesnt mean we should invoke or celebrate a social catastrophe.
Have you any idea how many people would go sick and hungry if everyone simply 'stopped working'?

Hm. As bcbm has said, people do indeed stop working during a general strike, are you against the idea of a general strike? I think most of the other people in this thread are workers and fairly poor, despite what you've tried to insinuate. The people on this forum that are generally "privileged" tend to be a bit more easily identifiable than those who simply say "I don't like work and I can't stand some jobs", after all which of us does in fact like working? Some people commit suicide because they hate their job so much, no one here has simply said they won't take any job that they don't like.

I think most other workers would think similarly, some people really do take any job and I have respect for them, but holding everyone to your own standards is pointless.


But there are already progressive institutions in existance that will still have a role post-revolution. Britain's NHS being the textbook example.

What on earth would we keep about the NHS? It is a bureaucratic mess. It needs a complete overhaul to function as any kind of proper health service that workers deserve, in fact, much about Western medicine in general needs to be changed, there are loads of things we could use from around the world to make the entire service so much better for people. The French health service is a lot better than the NHS, but again I wouldn't want to keep that as a model either.


Well i personally subscribe to the technocracy model of post revolutionary society in which our definitions and understanding of labour will change.

Labour will be orientated around the things which inspire our passion and intellect, not mere chores that we resent being co-erced into doing.

Work will still exist and jobs that very few people "like" will need doing too, although they will be able to choose what they want, to a very large extent, which makes a massive difference. But still, you can't simply say that all jobs will be filled with people who love doing them, that's just an impossibility. Most workers will take a job they don't mind doing but don't love - that sounds far more reasonable to me.

[Dr Mindbender]

BTW. Im not talking about one service stopping, which is what a strike is.

If absolutely everyone stops working thats very different.

[bcbm]

a general strike is where absolutely everyone stops working. hence "general."

[Dr Mindbender]

a general strike is where absolutely everyone stops working. hence "general."

No. A strike entails that there are conditions to be met by management, which upon satisfaction the workforce return to the work. That is what a strike is, general or otherwise.

By following the logic that the entire workforce should stop working because 'work is for chumps' regardless of changes offered, that is not a strike. That is mass voluntary unemployment.

[bcbm]

No. A strike entails that there are conditions to be met by management, which upon satisfaction the workforce return to the work. That is what a strike is, general or otherwise.

not really. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_strike#Syndicalism_and_the_general_strike)


By following the logic that the entire workforce should stop working because 'work is for chumps' regardless of changes offered, that is not a strike. That is mass voluntary unemployment.

the effect is the same... the economy is paralyzed, the boss class shits itself, the ex-workers find better ways to spend their time.

[Dr Mindbender]

not really. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_strike#Syndicalism_and_the_general_strike)
Okay, i concede you can expand on my definition. The point is a strike is a withdrawal of labour for political and/or social objectives.

Refusing to work because of works sake isnt a strike.

A person who consciously avoids employment isnt on permanent strike.



the effect is the same... the economy is paralyzed,
My concern is definition, not effect.


the boss class shits itself, the ex-workers find better ways to spend their time.
Good luck to them finding better ways without money within the capitalist paradigm.

Living in a barely furnished squat, or commune in a state of austerity and destitution isnt my definition of better ways either.

[bcbm]

Refusing to work because of works sake isnt a strike.

A person who consciously avoids employment isnt on permanent strike.

My concern is definition, not effect.



i think "mass voluntary unemployment" would be the equivalent of a permanent strike. a rejection of work to that extent would clearly be a rejection of the roles allotted to us under capitalism.


Good luck to them finding better ways without money within the capitalist paradigm.

Living in a barely furnished squat, or commune in a state of austerity and destitution isnt my definition of better ways either.

if everyone quit their jobs, there wouldn't be a capitalist paradigm.

[Dr Mindbender]

i think "mass voluntary unemployment" would be the equivalent of a permanent strike. a rejection of work to that extent would clearly be a rejection of the roles allotted to us under capitalism.
with the sole action of everyone quitting their jobs there is no prerequisite or expression of onus or desire to replace capitalism with a different system.
Thats the preconclusion that you seem to be harbouring.




if everyone quit their jobs, there wouldn't be a capitalist paradigm.
Correct, if everyone quit their job there wouldnt be a paradigm because it would be a mass famine.

[bcbm]

with the sole action of everyone quitting their jobs there is no prerequisite or expression of onus or desire to replace capitalism with a different system.
Thats the preconclusion that you seem to be harbouring.

i'm not sure what other conclusion to draw from a mass refusal of work.


Correct, if everyone quit their job there wouldnt be a paradigm because it would be a mass famine.

i think people would probably reorganize themselves to the extent that they wouldn't starve to death.

[Ravachol]

The Syndicalist 'General Strike' does not mean everyone suddenly stops producing, it means 'work' in the capitalist sense is halted.
The 'General Strike' has many incarnations, one being the General Lockout where production continues but the ruling class is locked out of the factories, the community centres,etc and control over the means of production is taken over by the Syndicalist mass union. This doesn't involve everyone sitting on their arses 'waiting for things to happen' and people starving at all.

[Dr Mindbender]

i think people would probably reorganize themselves to the extent that they wouldn't starve to death.

Yeah, cause people living in the top floor of a council tower block have the means to farm vegetables and cattle.

:rolleyes:

[bcbm]

your inability to imagine forms of social and productive organization outside of "work" in the capitalist sense is disappointing.

[Dr Mindbender]

your inability to imagine forms of social and productive organization outside of "work" in the capitalist sense is disappointing.

its a matter of practicality. If you honestly think poor people living in deprived inner city and suburban estates who were already vulnerable to begin with are somehow going to do all their own farming, your head is in spaceland. Sure you could probably loot unsupervised supermarkets but its a finite supply and consumables have a short shelf life. Im guessing without the infrastructure of organisation in place, it would quickly descend into a 'might is right' status quo where only the strongest get fed. Petty bourgeoisie farmers in the countryside will do ok, but they own their own means of sustinence and were never as workshy as their bourgeoisie contemporaries.

Think about it, if everyone stops working it means no more logistics between rural and urban areas. The cities will be choked of essentials that people need to survive and it will result in catastrophe.



social and productive organization
Wait, but i thought everyone was not going to work and stay at home all day playing x box?

I can imagine work outside the capitalist sense, the difference is i dont envisage the handover of power happening overnight purely through mass walkouts and redundancy letters. The transfer needs an informed and well thought out blueprint.

[bcbm]

stopping work doesn't mean stopping all productive activity. if our class is at the point where it can consider a mass refusal of work, i think they'd already be well beyond the point of talking about vague blueprints.

[Dr Mindbender]

stopping work doesn't mean stopping all productive activity. if our class is at the point where it can consider a mass refusal of work, i think they'd already be well beyond the point of talking about vague blueprints.

Well its obviously a very subtle distinction, perhaps you want to elaborate.

if everyone simply stops working, the bourgeoisie still own the M'sOP.

Power can only be switched when they are collectively seized from them.

[bcbm]

Well its obviously a very subtle distinction, perhaps you want to elaborate.

"My minimum definition of work is *forced* *labor*, that is, compulsory production. Both elements are essential. Work is production enforced by economic or political means, by the carrot or the stick."


if everyone simply stops working, the bourgeoisie still own the M'sOP.

Power can only be switched when they are collectively seized from them.

if everyone stops working, the bourgeoisie are fucked and we simply do whatever we please with their means of production. i think the problem is that you aren't really imagining what the social conditions would need to be for everyone to stop working in the manner we're describing.

[ls]

Yeah, cause people living in the top floor of a council tower block have the means to farm vegetables and cattle.

:rolleyes:

What a rude and abrupt post. Haven't you heard of mutual aid?

Do you want some examples? How about the communal kitchens during the miners' strike? Or the kitchens for people who are poor operated by local community groups, such as hackney solidarity network? I think there are people cooking for workers in Turkey even now in the TEKEL strike; students and workers have taken striking workers into their homes in order to look after them, as many of them travelled to Ankara and are not from the region.

What a stupid post, think about what you say before you open your mouth. :rolleyes:

[Dr Mindbender]

What a rude and abrupt post. Haven't you heard of mutual aid?

Do you want some examples? How about the communal kitchens during the miners' strike? Or the kitchens for people who are poor operated by local community groups, such as hackney solidarity network? I think there are people cooking for workers in Turkey even now in the TEKEL strike; students and workers have taken striking workers into their homes in order to look after them, as many of them travelled to Ankara and are not from the region.

What a stupid post, think about what you say before you open your mouth. :rolleyes:
Au contrare.

I did think before i opened my mouth. I'm perhaps the only person in this thread to have done so. Where you think food actually comes from? It certainly doesnt spawn magically from kitchens and solidarity networks, it comes from farms in rural areas. You can't produce food from scratch in the city, end of. Certainly not for a large population in a city the size of London. That means you need a logistic industry to ferry meat, vegetables, dairy products and fruit from the country to the city. With no lorry drivers, butchers, slaughterhouse workers, dairy workers, or packers at work, how do you intend to get the food from point A to point B?

Not gonna happen. You end up with nutritional deficiency related illnesses, starvation, mass cannibalism and people eating grass soup.

Thats before i've even got onto the pharmaceutical and medicine industry.

Homebrew bootleg anti-viral drugs and antibiotics, anyone? Didnt think so.

[bcbm]

I did think before i opened my mouth. I'm perhaps the only person in this thread to have done so.

yes, nobody else knows where food comes from.


Not gonna happen. You end up with nutritional deficiency related illnesses, starvation, mass cannibalism and people eating grass soup.the end of work and capitalism is not the end of productive human activity.

[Dr Mindbender]

the end of work and capitalism is not the end of productive human activity.

Industry and capitalism aren't mutually co-dependent. On the contrary, industry will be even more essential in an abundancy society but i appreciate as a 'crypto primitivist' you perhaps favour the austerity and bleakness of pre-industrial material conditioning.

[ls]

Au contrare.

I did think before i opened my mouth. I'm perhaps the only person in this thread to have done so. Where you think food actually comes from? It certainly doesnt spawn magically from kitchens and solidarity networks, it comes from farms in rural areas. You can't produce food from scratch in the city, end of. Certainly not for a large population in a city the size of London. That means you need a logistic industry to ferry meat, vegetables, dairy products and fruit from the country to the city. With no lorry drivers, butchers, slaughterhouse workers, dairy workers, or packers at work, how do you intend to get the food from point A to point B?

Not gonna happen. You end up with nutritional deficiency related illnesses, starvation, mass cannibalism and people eating grass soup.

Thats before i've even got onto the pharmaceutical and medicine industry.

Homebrew bootleg anti-viral drugs and antibiotics, anyone? Didnt think so.

Wait, is this your position against a general strike or against mass quitting of jobs? If it's the former, then you are truly out of your mind. If it's the latter, well you can check the Bolshevik slogan in the song "bravely we will fight" if you so wish, it's subtitled on youtube. You really don't seem to care about the facts though.

[Dr Mindbender]

Wait, is this your position against a general strike or against mass quitting of jobs? If it's the former, then you are truly out of your mind. If it's the latter, well you can check the Bolshevik slogan in the song "bravely we will fight" if you so wish, it's subtitled on youtube. You really don't seem to care about the facts though.

bcbm never implied that his anti-work position had anything to do with striking, i even went out of my way to highlight the difference between striking and quitting work for work's sake, if you care to click on the previous pages.

All i'm saying is that post revolution, people will still have to commit to day jobs and anyone who thinks otherwise is in for a rude awakening.

[bcbm]

Industry and capitalism aren't mutually co-dependent. On the contrary, industry will be even more essential in an abundancy society but i appreciate as a 'crypto primitivist' you perhaps favour the austerity and bleakness of pre-industrial material conditioning.

this discussion would probably be more interesting if you would try to address ideas i actually hold and things i've actually said.


bcbm never implied that his anti-work position had anything to do with striking, i even went out of my way to highlight the difference between striking and quitting work for work's sake, if you care to click on the previous pages.

indeed, i didn't. what i have been trying to make clear is that a mass defection from work would, realistically, need to be undertaken by a fairly conscious mass of workers and would be a defection from capital as well, opening up the possibility (or, perhaps, necessity) of communism.


All i'm saying is that post revolution, people will still have to commit to day jobs and anyone who thinks otherwise is in for a rude awakening.

i think "post revolution" life will be completely transformed and the way humans labor will be a part of this, with "work" as we know it being a distant memory.

[Ovi]

To hell with work. 40 hours a week in a boring office doing boring stuff only to keep this system alive won't make it through the revolution. Much of the work done today is simply that: keeping this system alive, whether it's banking, insurance, advertising, police, arms industry, luxuries for the rich and so on. Not to mention the work that results from the inefficient social organization such as the created need of buying a car, the "make it break as soon as possible so the suckers will buy another" idea, equating happiness with consumption (consumerism)...Ending all this and using a different way to organize the remaining truly useful labor will abolish the "I do this job for a living though I hate it" view aka work.

On the contrary, industry will be even more essential in an abundancy society but i appreciate as a 'crypto primitivist' you perhaps favour the austerity and bleakness of pre-industrial material conditioning.
Crypto-primitivist is probably a joke.

[ls]

bcbm never implied that his anti-work position had anything to do with striking, i even went out of my way to highlight the difference between striking and quitting work for work's sake, if you care to click on the previous pages.

http://www.marxists.org/history/ussr/sounds/lyrics/smelo-my.htm


Quit your job, get ready for march.

Oh I guess the Bolsheviks were "anti-work" too. It's not like he's saying everyone has to quit their jobs tomorrow, but if a situation required it (like that which the Bolsheviks faced at the time) then it would make sense.


All i'm saying is that post revolution, people will still have to commit to day jobs and anyone who thinks otherwise is in for a rude awakening.

With flexible hours, conditions and.. work. If you think that people are going to be forced around like now, then you don't really believe in socialism, if someone is suffering from the 'peter principle' or from serious stress in another way, then it's best for both them and the system, that they work elsewhere surely?

[Dr Mindbender]

To hell with work. 40 hours a week in a boring office doing boring stuff only to keep this system alive won't make it through the revolution
There will still be offices after the revolution, and not all of them will be boring.

Heck, not all offices are boring under capitalism. My ambition is to work in an office within the creative industries (game development in my case).


Oh I guess the Bolsheviks were "anti-work" too. It's not like he's saying everyone has to quit their jobs tomorrow, but if a situation required it (like that which the Bolsheviks faced at the time) then it would make sense.
Like i said before to bcbm, theres a big difference between removing your labour for political gain and saying ''Work is for chumps, lets sit at home and play Halo team deathmatch lol''.



With flexible hours, conditions and.. work. If you think that people are going to be forced around like now, then you don't really believe in socialism,
Don't be ridiculous, of course i don't think that people are going to be forced around like the way they are know. Disagreeing with the current mode of distribution doesnt mean i condone free-riding either though, because it creates social antagonism between the industrious and the idle. Does that mean i think people should be forced into jobs they despise? No i don't. But thats an indictment of the present system in its failing to appropriate work and education correctly.

I fully agree that the cultural understanding and definitions of work needs to change, but classical socialism is unable to change this because it is built along the false dichotomy between heirarchy and forcing people into menial jobs. The bottom line is, people dont like cleaning public toilets and unless you co-erce people into doing it, giving them a choice, hoping someone will just be 'charitable' enough, the job won't get done. So what to do? Automation where possible and forging human employment along the lines of individual aspiration and interest will remove the negative synomities of the workplace.

[bcbm]

Like i said before to bcbm, theres a big difference between removing your labour for political gain and saying ''Work is for chumps, lets sit at home and play Halo team deathmatch lol''.

i already responded to this "argument," and elaborated on my position several times. but i guess i'm not worth responding to anymore. :rolleyes:

[ls]

There will still be offices after the revolution, and not all of them will be boring.

Heck, not all offices are boring under capitalism. My ambition is to work in an office within the creative industries (game development in my case).

I would agree very much, there are some really nice offices and I think we could have the best of both worlds; massive collective working areas with loads of nice facilities and a great social atmosphere. One of the nicest offices ever (to work in) that I've seen was the 'working links' office on mare street in hackney, it's as if they are having a constant party in there.


Like i said before to bcbm, theres a big difference between removing your labour for political gain and saying ''Work is for chumps, lets sit at home and play Halo team deathmatch lol''.

That isn't at all what he said, stop twisting his words.


Don't be ridiculous, of course i don't think that people are going to be forced around like the way they are know. Disagreeing with the current mode of distribution doesnt mean i condone free-riding either though, because it creates social antagonism between the industrious and the idle. Does that mean i think people should be forced into jobs they despise? No i don't. But thats an indictment of the present system in its failing to appropriate work and education correctly.

What is "free-riding"? Would you attack someone for genuinely being depressed? Would you say that to 'un-depress' themselves they need to go back to work or would you gently support them until they do get a job they can manage?


The bottom line is, people dont like cleaning public toilets and unless you co-erce people into doing it, giving them a choice, hoping someone will just be 'charitable' enough, the job won't get done.

Well, they expect people to use their hands in toilets and don't give them the right chemicals to do the job, say we collectivised production of the very best cleaning products, then they could use them, the job would be made 20x easier for the person, thus they wouldn't be so opposed to doing it.


o what to do? Automation where possible and forging human employment along the lines of individual aspiration and interest will remove the negative synomities of the workplace.

Pretty much.

[Dr Mindbender]

What is "free-riding"? Would you attack someone for genuinely being depressed? Would you say that to 'un-depress' themselves they need to go back to work or would you gently support them until they do get a job they can manage?
Don't you think its more the case that people are depressed because of the status quo rather than any random or self inflicted cause that the bourgeoisie would want us to believe? Depression can also be caused by a sense of lack of purpose. In which case sitting around on your ass isnt good for you. For those cases and generally for the most part, occupational therapy is the best thing for depression. That can also include work (not the menial kind). Speaking personally, i've always felt more depressed while unemployed.




Well, they expect people to use their hands in toilets and don't give them the right chemicals to do the job, say we collectivised production of the very best cleaning products, then they could use them, the job would be made 20x easier for the person, thus they wouldn't be so opposed to doing it.
Hold on, why have anyone do it?

In Japan they already have toilets that are not only self cleaning, they also clean your anus for you with a jet of water.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSCaaynmF2s&feature=related