Is Leftism in the west dead?

[RadioRaheem84]

It seems like Leftism has taken a sharp turn into oblivion in the West. Everyone is either right wing conservative (and thinks it's revolutionary) or liberal (to the point where they support the status quo over leftism).

The concept of Socialism has been reduced to nothing more than "state control of the mean of production", and any mention to the contrary gets blown off like it's gibberish. The Left wing populist movements in Latin America are seen, by people in the West, as nothing more than Castro-ish power grabs . Even left wingers and liberals in the West are split on these movements. No mention is made of the Maoists in India and Nepal unless the words "terrorists" or "bombing" is mentioned. The EZLN have faded away like any other 90s Gen X trend.

Progressives are constantly hounded as the "far-left" in the United States and are slowly being weeded out of the Democratic Party or barred from serious discourse in the media (at least not without being labeled far left first).

Anarchism (Libertarian Socialism) is seen as a punk kid's rebellious rite of passage and not a serious study.

Being anti-establishment is seen as vulgar, crass and hippie-ish these days. Most young people want to work within the system to seek change. Many want to be a part of the establishment. The only thing remotley "leftist" that seems to be given any credence is, blech social democracy. :thumbdown:

The small resugence in Marxism since the last crash is what I am placing my hopes in because as of now it seems like all hope for leftism to take stride again in the West is lost. I hope that I am really really wrong.

[piet11111]

leftism is not represented by politicians or trade union leaders but with the people its very much alive it just does not have any outlet.

and that actually might be a good thing because the traditional anchors to keep the working class in check are currently the party's that are in government and people are aware of the union leadership collaboration with capitalists and politicians.

[Muzk]

I'm alive, and so are you.

I'm not planning on dying anytime soon. You?

[RadioRaheem84]

leftism is not represented by politicians or trade union leaders but with the people its very much alive it just does not have any outlet.

and that actually might be a good thing because the traditional anchors to keep the working class in check are currently the party's that are in government and people are aware of the union leadership collaboration with capitalists and politicians.

Are leftist movements growing in numbers? Most people that I come across do not even see leftism as a viable option. At best, what they think of socialism is really social democracy, and that's what they agree with the most rather than fundamentally changing the social relations in the workplace.

I agree that we need an outlet if we intend to succeed at any level. First, the terrible conflation between social democracy and socialism has to end.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Are leftist movements growing in numbers? Most people that I come across do not even see leftism as a viable option. At best, what they think of socialism is really social democracy, and that's what they agree with the most rather than fundamentally changing the social relations in the workplace.

I agree that we need an outlet if we intend to succeed at any level. First, the terrible conflation between social democracy and socialism has to end.
Yes, it has to end, but maybe not first. Remember that when the socialist movement first began, in the 19th century, socialism and social democracy were also conflated. The Second International was a melting pot of revolutionaries and reformists... and revolutionary socialism did not become popular until AFTER the Second International had grown to a very large size.

[Revy]

There's too much obsession with ideological re-branding. As for the failure of the left in this country, it is partially the left's fault and partially the conditions. I wouldn't put all the blame on either, but both.

We should work to bring progressives over to socialism and away from the Democrats or Greens or Nader. We must make clear that the Greens and Nader are not an alternative rather than cozy up to them with drop-in-the-bucket "critical support".

We should also abandon the dream of a "labor party" of the unions (the vast majority of workers are NOT unionized!). In fact, entryism in a strong left-progressive alternative (the Greens are not a strong alternative) would be far more effective than that. Though that is not what I support.

[RadioRaheem84]

How were the two even conflated in the first place?

Social Democracy doesn't wish to change the social relations in the workplace. It wants to use the state to bring about a more equitable distribution of wealth. It's a very liberal ideology that bred Keynesianism and we all know how Keynes felt about Marxism.

How about gradually introducing market socialism into the mix and promote worker own enterprises?

[Robocommie]

How about gradually introducing market socialism into the mix and promote worker own enterprises?

That's already happening to some extent. I mean, I kindof consider myself a market socialist inspired by Marxism. Frankly I feel as though I am part of a wave of people who previously considered themselves social democrats and have been increasingly radicalized by the American political scene of the 00's.

[RadioRaheem84]

That's already happening to some extent. I mean, I kindof consider myself a market socialist inspired by Marxism. Frankly I feel as though I am part of a wave of people who previously considered themselves social democrats and have been increasingly radicalized by the American political scene of the 00's.

Same here. I started out a conventional liberal and found the entire spectrum to be a masked display of establishment principles. It's when you begin to question liberalism (and are appalled by conservatism) that one really become a leftist. The play we should make is to stop people from going over to the right once they've come to the conclusion that Liberalism is a sham.

[Robocommie]

Same here. I started out a conventional liberal and found the entire spectrum to be a masked display of establishment principles. It's when you begin to question liberalism (and are appalled by conservatism) that one really become a leftist. The play we should make is to stop people from going over to the right once they've come to the conclusion that Liberalism is a sham.

I think the biggest thing we can do is try and combat this idea that Socialists merely want an expanded welfare state. This is what people like Glenn Beck believe Socialism is, and it's what he leads people to fanatically believe it is. We have to say, listen, we don't want to just tax you to high heaven and then throw money at our problems - we want to give workers control over their own lives, over their own workplaces. We're just as mad at the bankers and the Wall Street execs as you, and in fact, we think we could do just fine without those people if the system was changed to allow for an alternative way of doing things.

You know it's not just setting up welfare programs which will feed people but keep them poor - it's to make sure that everyone can get work, and then have more control over that work so they're not just laboring to make some other asshole rich.

[RadioRaheem84]

Maybe people believe that changing the status quo means changing everything that they attribute to capitalism; art, technology, liberty, etc. They probably look at the "far left" as the same as Islamic radicals.

[Tiktaalik]

Leftism isn't dead per se, people do have leftist attitudes and when push comes to shove, will fight against the system. You're paying too much to the media and dead movements if you think resisting capitalism is dead

[RadioRaheem84]

But most of that anti-establishment feeling has been brought about because of the crash, before though, in the last decade, the West was wholly in tune with the establishment, loving every minute of the boom time. The growing income disparity was left to the charity groups and challenging the system was left to seasoned leftists. The only time the mood grew the least bit "left" during the whole Clinton-Bush era was during the second Iraqi invasion. After that died down it was back to talks about moving to Dubai, investing in this or that, housing boom, socialites, royal families, etc.

And I am not talking about the media but the general public who are pretty apolitical. Now that that's all fading and the wealthy are retreating back because of the populist backlash, the right has scooped up a lot of that anger. Another chunk are still hopeful of Obama and the last group think we should be more like Europe (social democracy). A lot don't see Socialism in the true sense as a viable option.

I just feel it's going to take a lot of work to get this train moving again.

[CELMX]

Yes, the left is declining partially (well, actually mainly) because of capitalist/government propaganda. As others said, Glenn Beck have defined socialism as state controlling everything and everyone's lives. Many people now see communism as a dictatorship, something like the Soviet Union under Stalin or China under Mao. Especially in the west, where education is shit, and teachers are literally being paid to spew propaganda.

A part of the stupidity is our fault. Our fault not to educate the masses well enough, and using fancy words, like bourgeois, proletarian, etc., that scares people away. Most people now are even uninterested in how their countries are run, even though it effects their lives greatly.

We need to spread more propaganda, educate people more, and especially youth. Those Obama loving mobs are disgusting, and we need to show them who Obama REALLY is. Organizations need to agree more, and unite, instead of lashing at each other over tiny details. These fights result in nothing, or even harm people. Some leftists are even focusing on war between different tendencies, instead of the real issues: class war.

I really think leftists should focus more on the youth (even those who aren't workers yet) instead of the older population, because their minds are set and not maliable at all.

Don't worry: not all hope is lost. Though we are failing as leftists, we can definitely improve, and inspire revolution lost in the past. I also thing European leftists (since the majority of them are there) should not only focus on British workers, but help inspire the American masses, instead of shunning them as stupid and inert.

[CELMX]

I just feel it's going to take a lot of work to get this train moving again.

Yes, it will take a lot of work, but giving up and ranting a hella lot on an internet forum isn't going to help.

We need to educate, and tell those organizations that argue over little things to shut the fuck up. And, we must focus on youth, as I said earlier, and get that liberal Obama bullshit out of their system.

[RadioRaheem84]

Liberalism has built up such a strong following with the youth though. I mean they see it as a perfect medium between conservative right wingers and "far left" commies like us. It also allows them to be intellectually inept while pretending to be morally superior to others:rolleyes:. Progressive liberalism is as far they're willing to go.

To even mention Communism, Anarchism or Marxism is to conjure up images of guerrillas with long beards wanting to take over everything and end art, technology and social mobility as we know it.

[CELMX]

Liberalism has built up such a strong following with the youth though. I mean they see it as a perfect medium between conservative right wingers and "far left" commies like us. It also allows them to be intellectually inept while pretending to be morally superior to others:rolleyes:. Progressive liberalism is as far they're willing to go.

To even mention Communism, Anarchism or Marxism is to conjure up images of guerrillas with long beards wanting to take over everything and end art, technology and social mobility as we know it.

exactly. the youth has been taught that anarchism is basically some stupid young punk movement, communism is "evil", and that liberalism is the best thing in the world...and totally different from republicans. False. Democrats = Republicans. Republicans = Democrats. Their the same fucking thing. Both bourgeois, but youth are so ignorant now, that they can't see that.
You know what we need to create? A human crap detector.

[Hexen]

Looks like the west is doomed to forever ride the carousel of repeated mistakes while it's going to hell...Maybe the west actually deserves this vomited shit after all since I'm very close at giving up hope right now.

[bcbm]

i think the left, at least as we know it, is probably dead if not buried and the corpses clinging to it need to let go. the organization of capital and social structures within the west has changed rapidly in the last decade, to say nothing of the last 50, 100, 150, 200 years. the boss' analysis, actions, organization, etc reflect this but, for the most part, the left is still attempting to operate much the same as it did at the beginning of the last century (worker's parties), or as it was during the new left period (student parties). i think it should be obvious why either of these forms is a farce and doomed to failure. if those still clinging to the left and its organizations are to have any hope, i think they need to stop arguing about all manner of historical nonsense and internecine clashes and start discussing how to proceed. i think most groups need to "catch up" to the times, develop coherent strategy and figure out how to successfully orient themselves in struggle. i'm not going to hold my breath on it.

[Winter]

I really feel your pain.

I live in a very conservative hicktown in California. I think that I may be the only Marxist-Leninist in this town. I feel isolated from the Leftist movement. This forum is my only source for even talking to people who share my beliefs.

Bigger cities have alot more to offer. If I were to look at the beliefs the majority in my community hold I too would come to the conclusion that Leftism is dead. But thanks to the internet, I know that it is not.

Currently, reactionaries have become rabidly pro-free markets and anti-Obama. These people think that Obama represents Socialism and that socialism aids only the wealthy elites. This whole distortion of what socialism is stems from not only the education system, but our culture as well. Somehow, we equate individuality with capitalism and slavery with socialism.

This has never been true. Not with the Soviet, Not with China, Not with Cuba.

Why does the U.S. government ban us from even visiting Cuba? Because they want to keep us blinded from the seeing the truth. It's a very elaborate system of propaganda and education.

How can we counter these misconceptions about socialism? Join an organization. Solidarity is key. As long as we have groups helping us to systematically educate those who will listen Leftism is alive. Like an above post suggested, it would be tactically wise to start with liberal democrats and greens. Help them see the logical conclusion of what needs to happen to help the working class and poor.

I myself, has barely found an organization that fits my ideology, but it's going to be tough since many of these meetings and events this group holds takes place in a metropolitan area, and I am secluded to where I am. I suppose I will make time to do some travelling so I can get in contact with these people to help spread the news and the truth of socialism.

I know this all looks pointless at times, but if we actually get out there, we can visibly see our progress effecting those who will listen. :lol:

[CELMX]

Looks like the west is doomed to ride the carousel of repeated mistakes while it's going to hell...Probably the west actually deserves this vomited shit after all since I'm very close at giving up hope right now.

what. the. fuck. Are you saying American, hard working American workers should be vomited on? Are you adhering to the theory that socialism should only be in one part of the world?
We should NEVER give up. If you give up, you will be a huge part of the problem. It's because of people like you, that says, oh, americans are stupid, fuck them.

And, what do you mean the west deserves this? I hope you mean capitalist bosses. Because much of the population are either workers, unemployed, or lower middle class people. They didn't cause any problems, did they? It was the fucking government that fucked everything up in the middle east, caused unnecessary xenophobia among people, and exploited and destroyed peoples' lives.

If you say any of the shit America is causing around the world is because of the majority of the population, go to hell. If you ignore those American workers I see every day on the streets, worrying about debts, morgages, instead of enjoying their lives, and the right to liberty; if you think that just because workers might be ignorant, that they have no hope; if you give up on the class struggle in this failing nation; you are no comrade of mine.

[Hexen]

what. the. fuck. Are you saying American, hard working American workers should be vomited on? Are you adhering to the theory that socialism should only be in one part of the world?
We should NEVER give up. If you give up, you will be a huge part of the problem. It's because of people like you, that says, oh, americans are stupid, fuck them.

And, what do you mean the west deserves this? I hope you mean capitalist bosses. Because much of the population are either workers, unemployed, or lower middle class people. They didn't cause any problems, did they? It was the fucking government that fucked everything up in the middle east, caused unnecessary xenophobia among people, and exploited and destroyed peoples' lives.

If you say any of the shit America is causing around the world is because of the majority of the population, go to hell. If you ignore those American workers I see every day on the streets, worrying about debts, morgages, instead of enjoying their lives, and the right to liberty; if you think that just because workers might be ignorant, that they have no hope; if you give up on the class struggle in this failing nation; you are no comrade of mine.

Sorry about that, but I said that out of anger because of the general apathy from the working classes. Although I don't want to be pessimistic myself but according to this current environment just makes me feel like losing hope on the working class but I do believe that there is way out of this madness however.

[Würzel]

The concept of Socialism has been reduced to nothing more than "state control of the mean of production", and any mention to the contrary gets blown off like it's gibberish. The Left wing populist movements in Latin America are seen, by people in the West, as nothing more than Castro-ish power grabs .

This might be the case in the Anglosaxon world but at least here in continental Europe and especially in Scandinavia, this is not the case. Attitudes towards left wing populist movements are way more variable than down there and state control is generally seen as a good thing when it benefits the people; free healthcare, education etc. etc.

Educated people generally understand what socialism is about and basically all European countries have very influental social democratic parties. These parties might be reformist and centrist, but their history tends to be linked to actual revolutionary movements and really quite many people understand how the benefits they are having now in the social welfare state are linked to socialism. The European state has its backgrounds in socialist ideals even if it has left the bourgeois government in tact and revolutionary thinking has never been really mainstream but some influences from the ilks of Bernstein are clear and even if it means people don't get what's the actual problem here, in this kind of environment people tend to be more class-conscious than in, say, the United States.

For some more country-specific examples, here in Finland, many middle-aged folks consider themselves to be socialist for quite many reasons but they tend to be linked to what socialist movement used to be in Finland and because they don't want to lose the Scandinavian model of welfare we're having here. Many families are traditionally social democratic and this kind of divisions trace back to early 1900's and the civil war of 1918, when the SDP was actually revolutionary. But quite many young people are also pretty leftist, as well! The "most leftist" party in Finland, the Leftist Union (e.g. the Finnish trots are vouching for them), is actually holding 17 seats out of 200 in the Diet, and the party is pretty popular among young people.

The United States of America =/= "the West", sorry.

[NecroCommie]

Many good points, but the most leftist party is the finnish communist party, or the communist workers party. The leftist union are what social democrats used to be, and their only revolutionary element is the youth organization. Also, this might be because the regional differences between us, or the people we hang around with, but as far as I gather the most popular movement amongst the youth are the hardcore nationalists and racists. I have so far seen hardcore left-wingers in the civilian service basic training only, yet I see reactionaries where ever I go. Join the finnish group to discuss more so this would'nt go off-topic.

This is ofocourse very different in Sweden and Norway where the left is more popular amongst the youth, and even the conservatists are not equally disgusting. So in the broader sense of scandinavia and even partially east-germany, würzel is correct.

[Robocommie]

I think that, at least in the US, people have a lot more Socialist attitudes and ideas than they'd ever realize. Even a lot of the conservatives I know, they don't have such a hardon for capitalism. I mean, there's nothing sexy about trusting big pharmaceutical companies or thinking your boss is out for your best interest. Most working stiffs realize that's all bullshit.

There IS a trend of conservative thought in the US that will make it hard for us though, the idea of "going it alone" and being your own man. The idea of the entrepreneurial spirit, you know, the whole John Galt thing.

[RadioRaheem84]

I think that, at least in the US, people have a lot more Socialist attitudes and ideas than they'd ever realize. Even a lot of the conservatives I know, they don't have such a hardon for capitalism. I mean, there's nothing sexy about trusting big pharmaceutical companies or thinking your boss is out for your best interest. Most working stiffs realize that's all bullshit.

There IS a trend of conservative thought in the US that will make it hard for us though, the idea of "going it alone" and being your own man. The idea of the entrepreneurial spirit, you know, the whole John Galt thing.


Maybe we can translate that attitude into workers self management. Libertarian socialism should appeal to people.

[Robocommie]

Maybe we can translate that attitude into workers self management. Libertarian socialism should appeal to people.

Yeah I very much think each and every nation will have to tailor it's message for the audience. I think liberation theology and libertarian socialism both have the best chance of success in the United States.

[RadioRaheem84]

Yeah I very much think each and every nation will have to tailor it's message for the audience. I think liberation theology and libertarian socialism both have the best chance of success in the United States.
Agreed. The social gospel is much more appreciated by the younger generation. Libertarian Socialism seems like it would appeal to a variety of people. As would Market Socialism.

[Die Neue Zeit]

How were the two even conflated in the first place?

Social Democracy doesn't wish to change the social relations in the workplace. It wants to use the state to bring about a more equitable distribution of wealth. It's a very liberal ideology that bred Keynesianism and we all know how Keynes felt about Marxism.

How about gradually introducing market socialism into the mix and promote worker own enterprises?

You have my work. Part of it traces the history of "Social Democracy."

It started in 1848 as a class-collaborationist ideology spanning the French proletariat and radical petit-bourgeoisie (Marx), then was usurped as a label by August Bebel and Wilhelm Liebknecht (to the dismay of Marx) when they founded the Social-Democratic Workers Party of Germany in 1869 (Eisenach Program), then this party grew in sufficient mass to force the Lassalleans to subsume themselves into a larger party in 1875 (Gotha Program), which then survived the Anti-Socialist Laws and emerged as the Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands with a Marxist program in 1892 (Erfurt Program).

Eventually the ideology went back to less than its class-collaborationist Square One that it is today.

Think about the word "social."

[Hexen]

I guess here's one shred of proof that Leftism is quite dead if you read majority of the comments below.

http://forum.deviantart.com/community/politics/1333731/

[RadioRaheem84]

I think that Libertarian Socialism is the best way to revive the left in a meaningful way in the States.

[Hexen]

I think that Libertarian Socialism is the best way to revive the left in a meaningful way in the States.


I think Slavioj Zizek said something similar...

http://www.revleft.com/vb/slavoj-zizek-reflecting-t126719/index.html

I think I this may be our only hope is to reinvent and reintroduce socialism.

I also realize that in current times we're actually regressing back how it was during the 19th century all over again currently as if a cycle. I guess this also means we're given a second chance and hopefully we can eventually break free of this cycle by learning our mistakes of what happened in the Soviet Union so we can assure that it never happens again (or making sure that a another 20th century never happens again).

But first we must fight a upgraded Mecha Jolly Top Hat before we can reach into a new form of Socialism...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkM9b9AEagI

[AnthArmo]

I guess here's one shred of proof that Leftism is quite dead if you read majority of the comments below.

http://forum.deviantart.com/community/politics/1333731/


so....much....ignorance!

[robbo203]

It seems like Leftism has taken a sharp turn into oblivion in the West. Everyone is either right wing conservative (and thinks it's revolutionary) or liberal (to the point where they support the status quo over leftism).

The concept of Socialism has been reduced to nothing more than "state control of the mean of production", and any mention to the contrary gets blown off like it's gibberish. The Left wing populist movements in Latin America are seen, by people in the West, as nothing more than Castro-ish power grabs . Even left wingers and liberals in the West are split on these movements. No mention is made of the Maoists in India and Nepal unless the words "terrorists" or "bombing" is mentioned. The EZLN have faded away like any other 90s Gen X trend.

Progressives are constantly hounded as the "far-left" in the United States and are slowly being weeded out of the Democratic Party or barred from serious discourse in the media (at least not without being labeled far left first).

Anarchism (Libertarian Socialism) is seen as a punk kid's rebellious rite of passage and not a serious study.

Being anti-establishment is seen as vulgar, crass and hippie-ish these days. Most young people want to work within the system to seek change. Many want to be a part of the establishment. The only thing remotley "leftist" that seems to be given any credence is, blech social democracy. :thumbdown:

The small resugence in Marxism since the last crash is what I am placing my hopes in because as of now it seems like all hope for leftism to take stride again in the West is lost. I hope that I am really really wrong.


Actually, I look on this more positively. That the Left has become increasingly irrelevant and enfeebled is quite true but there is a real prospect now of reorientation and realignment which is beckoning and out of this might quite possibly emerge a much more robust more clear sighted communist movement.

The problems with the Left all started back in the Second International and even earlier as political organisations fell under the spell of statism and reformism. The minimum programme of state enacted reforms progressively displaced and eventually effaced all talk of the maximum programme of the revolutinary transformation of society along commmunist lines. The huge and ultimately tragic experiment in state capitalism represented by the Soviet Union and elsewhere diverted millions of sincere and well meaning workers down a cul de sac which ended, predictably enough, with Lenin's esteemed Vanguard - the so called communist party elite - selling out on even the idea of state capitalism and buying into corporate capitalism in their "revolution from above".

All of these sacred cows of the Left - welfare reformism, nationalisation, Leninist vanguardism, transitional periods, the dictatorship of the proletariat , so called market socialism and so on - have been shattered and discredited one by one. This is why the Left has sunk into such a dire state. It has never really understood that if you are going to take on the administration of the money/wages/profit system there is only one way in which you can operate it - in the interests of capital and against the interests of workers

The thin red line of non-market anti statist communism has been the one consistent bright hope in all this. The only way the Left is going to come out of this state of terminal decline is to fundamentally rethink its whole perspective, to learn the lessons of history, to completely jettison those illusions I have referred to and to finally embrace genuine communism - not as some long term hypothetical goal that can be indefinitely deferred becuase of the alleged need for some transitional stage or pressing reform in the meantime, but rather as our immediate and uncompromising objective.

Classless and stateless communism only appears "utopian" and far off becuase the Left overwhelming sides with the bourgeoisie in declaring it to be so. But actually there is now no other option for the Left than to come out fiorthrightly in favour of communism or face extinction and assimilation into the ranks of overtly capitalist political origanisations

[RadioRaheem84]

I agree. The left has totally capitulated to the notion of the nation state being inseparable from policy. It has also done this with the market.

On that note though, I do also think that the left has become irrelevant because it doesn't explain some of the more nuance things of capitalism like finance, business, or any other practical application of capitalism. It seems like I've learned how to philosophically debate economists as to why their system is faulty and illogical but it's difficult to take on my girlfriend's business owning father who know zip about economics but everything on running a practical business. It would be nice for Marxists to begin doing case studies of practical businesses and why their enterprises are faulty and lead to implosion. It would be nice to understand the depth of finance capitalism and all the complex Wall Street concoctions that led us to two major crises.

It would also be nice to practically show how worker run enterprises are at least more profitable than capitalist ones. If we want to become relevant again we have to attack the capitalists on their territory. We have to challenge them on their philosophical assumption as well as the businesses they run. We have to begin by challenging Forbes, Wall Street Journal, Economist. I mean, Noam Chomsky, said it best. You want to understand who really runs the world, read the business press.

[Belisarius]

Radioraheem is actually right. the best critique is one from within. marx himself took theories from Smith and Ricardo, both liberals, and even then used these to defend communism.

[RadioRaheem84]

Liberals are doing this everyday by promoting their "socially responsible" businesses. If you go to any major business school in the nation, you'll see that they're already on top of the excesses of capitalism and are actively promoting socially responsible or sustainable development enterprises or promoting such practices within enterprise. All of this is from a liberal perspective though and it will never solve the problem but it will get a shit load of good PR. Pretty much they're helping capitalism clean up its image by sprinkling sugar over it. This is what we have to directly challenge because it will totally effect the next paradigm of thinking in economics and business. Then we'll see their balding ugly mugs all over Time and Newsweek as the "saviors of capitalism". You know the drill. :lol:

[Kwisatz Haderach]

As would Market Socialism.
"Market socialism" is an oxymoron.

[RadioRaheem84]

"Market socialism" is an oxymoron.

So you're not a fan of David Schweickart?

[Left-Reasoning]

"Market socialism" is an oxymoron.

Comrade, what do you consider Tucker and Spooner?

[RadioRaheem84]

Just started a conversation with a group of Brits and we began debating over the last decade being one that was similar to the roaring twenties. It seems like it was hip and cool to be pro-establishment and bourgeois. All agreed that it wasn't such a bad thing and that being anti-establishment and a radical was vulgar. And these weren't upper class socialite Brits either but liberal college students.

After the rich have been exposed with their financial schemes, the Dubai bubble PR campaign burst, the bailout, etc. They still wanted those days to never end like a forever running Gossip Girl episode! What is with the youth these days and how can we even begin to break them away from this mental state?

[GatesofLenin]

Is Leftism dead in the west? I don't think it is. I believe most people are scared to rock the system in anyway because then you will be branded a pinko commie. The current scare tactics by our govts reminds me alot of the 1950's Mccarthyism era. I think that people will see through all this and see that there's currently no real Leftist thinking party. I laugh everytime I hear "educated" people talk how the Liberal Party of Canada is left wing. Oh my .... :cool:

[RadioRaheem84]

Try hearing that the Democratic Party in the US is a left wing party! Anything to left of Milton Friedman is socialist here.

But you're right, the new tactic is to totally disregard what's truly left in favor of mislabeling liberals and social democrats "leftist". Anything past them is considered "far left" or radically socialist and put into the same camp with fascists and Islamic radicals.

It was a brilliant way of reorganizing the political spectrum to marginalize the leftist elements in politics. Now hedge fund managers and corporate stooges could look liberal and chic, somewhat in touch with the people.

It's odd that as a real leftist, I feel almost intimidated saying so. Like there will be a real backlash this time around. This is sort of like the McCarthy era again.

[Antiks72]

Well on one hand things are dire as for as any sign of a movement is concerned. On the other, things can only get better from here. Like Marx said, capital digs its own grave, so it's only a matter of time before they go to far. Hopefully we'll see the working class rise up soon.

[Left-Reasoning]

The revolutionary left in the west is effectively dead.

We need a revival.

[robbo203]

The revolutionary left in the west is effectively dead.

We need a revival.

A revivial can only come from a re-orientation, a fundamental rethinking. That big mother of all leftist ideas - the idea of a classless stateless wageless communist community - is what needs to be revived to become the solid basis and purpose of our activity. The Left or the huge bulk of it effectively abandoned this idea in droves, fell prey to the opportunism of reformism or the elitist belief that a social revolution can be socially engineered by a small vanguard. These things we now know simply do not work. Capitalism in whatever guise it takes simply cannot be administered in the interests of working people. Only a genuine communist revolution will do.

Once the Left finally recognises this then and only then it will have a future. Until then it will remain moribund since capitalism has little use of its schemes for running the system. Some leftist reform ideas have effectively been coopted by the establishment anyway leaving its left wing originators out in the cold.

The Left has nowhere to go except to get back to the original project of communism which it long ago abandoned

[RadioRaheem84]

How about we begin with market socialism or at least influence the people with ideas of workers self management. Most of the people I talk to have no qualms with worker run co-ops. It would be a start to show people that socialism is not about the state taking over everything including our lives.

[CELMX]

How about we begin with market socialism or at least influence the people with ideas of workers self management. Most of the people I talk to have no qualms with worker run co-ops. It would be a start to show people that socialism is not about the state taking over everything including our lives.

Yes, most people I ask absolutely hate their bosses, and if they didn't have bosses, said they would still do something to contribute to their community.
However, whenever the word socialism comes out, they freak.
I've already brought this up, but, should we not use the "s" or "c" word?
And if we do, I think there should be much more pamphlets and periodicals published for the general people, so they know what socialism and communism is. Glenn Beck, and many other vile republicans, have twisted communism with totalitariansm, or even calling democrats commies :D

We need our own propaganda to overthrow those shits, and tell people about all their lies. The propaganda we are giving out now is not enough. We need pamphlets, posters, etc. in not only major cities, but in highly conservative areas. If you just give out your shit in areas where there is a high concentration of leftists, you are preaching to the choir. We need propaganda in every town in this nation, that not only educates about socialism, but also bashes capitalism, and those right-wing talk show freaks.

[RadioRaheem84]

I think that there has to be a stong mobilization of the youth toward the socialist cause. They don't even know how to be counter revolutionary anymore. A lot of them can easily see the shallowness of crass materialism and patriotism but they choose to vent their frustrations through an emo, skater type of rebellion that is just annoying and tries desperately to be different for appearence sake. No real substance behind it, almost condescending too.

[Belisarius]

i think that what CELMX said starts in schools and education. every time communism is brought up it is because of Stalin or Mao. they just keep the better examples of communism (Lenin and Trotsky) silent. even the defintions given to communism show mere misunderstanding. in my history course we defined communism as "state control over the means of production", but what is meant then is the dictatorship of the proletariat or, even more correctly, the totalitarian dictatorships of Stalin or Ceaucescu.

[robbo203]

How about we begin with market socialism or at least influence the people with ideas of workers self management. Most of the people I talk to have no qualms with worker run co-ops. It would be a start to show people that socialism is not about the state taking over everything including our lives.


Trouble is "market socialism" is a contradiction in terms. We need to be encouraging people to look beyond or transcend the market, not reinforce market ideology. This is not to knock your idea completely on the head. There is something to be said for organising into coops but it needs to be emphasised that this is not a step beyond capitalism. Coops are highly vulnerable to cooption by capitalism. Just look at what happened to Mondragon

[GatesofLenin]

The world can only go so far before it's people see that capitalism is a cul-de-sac with disastrous consequences. We're all told now how the current economic "hiccup" started in Iceland with it's national bank going bankrupt. Like the word "national" they spew each and every day. National is now considered a communist word. The media keeps scaring people with big words and yet they refuse to report the daily pirating of our natural resources and system by the top capitalists. Here in Canada, our prime minister shut down parliament til' March 2nd and yet the mass Canuck fools don't react. Trust me, I try to educate the people I meet each day that we're all required to work to survive, pay our bills, pay our taxes but how come this same rule doesn't apply to our elected officials? Canada's federal politicians average $15000- $20000 a month in salaries with many tax breaks yet they don't need to do any work to earn those disgustingly high pays. Why is this? Our lowest working class work the hardest and pay the highest tax rates. Sorry for my rant guys and gals, I'm just ticked at the moment.:cursing:

[Left-Reasoning]

Trouble is "market socialism" is a contradiction in terms.

I disagree. The mutualism of Benjamin Tucker is indeed socialism.

[NecroCommie]

I guess here's one shred of proof that Leftism is quite dead if you read majority of the comments below.

http://forum.deviantart.com/community/politics/1333731/
Why don't those people just die? :confused: It must be an awesome bother to live with all that supernatural knowledge.

[Robocommie]

Trouble is "market socialism" is a contradiction in terms. We need to be encouraging people to look beyond or transcend the market, not reinforce market ideology. This is not to knock your idea completely on the head. There is something to be said for organising into coops but it needs to be emphasised that this is not a step beyond capitalism. Coops are highly vulnerable to cooption by capitalism. Just look at what happened to Mondragon

The developments in Mondragon would be a problem if we continued to try and set up cooperatives under the umbrella of a capitalist-run oligarchy. But with a truly socialist government, able to enforce socialist principles and have socialist property laws written into the Constitution, market socialism would be both effective and progressive.