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ComradeMan
14th January 2010, 13:32
Right, I was restricted for my stance on Afghanistan, so here goes.

To me Afghanistan is a leftist nightmare. It's a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't.:(

I maintain that the occupation of one country by the forces of another is in principal wrong and only on rare occasions where perhaps a friendly power has been invited by the legal and principled government of a country to help could it perhaps be justified. I have never supported the occupation.

My whole problem, and this is from a leftist point of view is quite simply, What do we do now? Does Afghanistan get abandoned? What role should the international community have in helping the Afghani people? And what is the position on reactionary groups like the Taliban despite their resistance to the coalition?. What would happen if the coalition were to go home tomorrow and the Taliban take over? What would then be the position here? For many people here, it is our countries with governments we may have even voted for that sent the troops there in the first place, that are part of the occupation and so surely we also have a moral responsibility to try to put right what has been done wrong? Many people in our countries were against the war, I admit but at the same time it is our governments at home that make these decisions so I feel we have some collective responsibility here too.

I am sure many people can understand my dilemma.

I repeat I have never supported the occupation- but we have to work out a de-occupation strategy that is realistic. Slogans are great and all that... but what needs to be done in terms of facts.

What is the problem with the UN (in terms of humanitarian agencies)? I have always been led to believe that despite its problems the UN is at least some kind of brake on total capitalist domination. I have also been led to believe that the humanitarian work is fundamentally a force for good in the world.

If I have a stance, I admit I am no expert on this matter, that in some ways is "reactionary" then please say where and why. Let's educate here and not just attack. I apologise to all members of the forum who may have been taken aback by my stance.

I assure you that any position I take has its basis on the humanitarian needs of the ordinary grassroots people! That is where I try to work from and increasingly in this world you just don't know who to believe or who to trust anymore.

Please accept my apologies for the my unintentionally and dare I say, well-meaning stance and tell me where I went wrong.

I am also man enough to admit my mistakes and the more I read of the occupation the more I begin to see that the presence of the US military is doing more harm than good and should come to an end. Nevertheless I will support genuine people's movements in the country but NOT the Taliban.

Quote
The Taliban remain as ultra-reactionary as ever. The forces which socialists can positively support in Afghanistan, such as the fragile women's movement in Kabul, are weak. We would solidarise with the people of the cities against conquest by the Taliban. But the US and NATO military forces should withdraw
http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2009/09/08/afghanistan-bad-worse


EDIT 15/01/10
I think it's telling that some who were so vociferously anti- my positions and launched the hue and cry so to speak are conspicuously absent here- what's the matter? Few constructive answers beyond sloganeering?

Robert
14th January 2010, 14:55
I maintain that the occupation of one country by the forces of another is in principal wrong and only on rare occasions where perhaps a friendly power has been invited by the legal and principled government of a country to help could it perhaps be justified.

Okay. What if the friendly, legal and principled power wants the USA to come in and help suppress a leftist uprising?

Let's turn it around: suppose we aren't "invited," but we have reliable intelligence that a country's government is rounding up for extermination every single Tutsi tribesman, or Jew, Latino, Chinese, or Gypsy, or Communist in the land? (Suppose there are millions of them. victims, I mean, not thugs.)

P.S. Your original stance on Afghanistan was just as defensible as anyone else's.

khad
14th January 2010, 15:06
You know what, I am sick of this whining. All this constitutes is yet another example of your politicking to get unrestricted. Going behind everyone's back to cut a backroom deal was already bad enough, but this is just pathetic. Your humility doesn't fool anyone with two brain cells to rub together.

There are many, many people in OI who deserve unrestriction right now. A number of them are currently being discussed/voted on after months or even years in the OI--and you want to fast track your way out?

No, fuck that. Get in line.

Kayser_Soso
14th January 2010, 15:11
The fact is that it is up to the people of Afghanistan, and nobody else, if they want to choose feudal tribalism, Taliban theocracy, or to evolve toward socialism. At one time the Afghan people in droves chose the latter, and outside influence tipped the scales in favor of the warlords and their brutality and incompetence set the stage for the Taliban to come in and mop up.

革命者
14th January 2010, 15:48
The USA and allies support such ultra-reactionary groups, mostly from ethnic or religious minorities, for their own ends and then fight them if they do dare to follow their own agenda. Using clearly unethical means to further your agenda (which inevitably goes wrong) is never an option, as far as I am concerned. Preventing genocide would not count as unethical, securing capitalist interests is. People shouldn't think a war can be used to create a stable democracy out of thin air.

The biggest problem of countries like Afghanistan is that they are used for other people's ends, never those of the Afghani people. They are just constantly in the wrong place at the wrong time and thus can't build up a viable democracy by their own means, as long as people keep meddling in their affairs. It attracts mudjahedeen and invading armies which are considered far worse than religious fundamentalists, even in the more "enlightened" parts. The stability now is welcomed, but won't last. Stability and security can not be sustained by foreign force; when the capitalist interests are satisfied the invaders will leave a country in chaos and ethnic conflict, as we have seen before and we'll keep seeing if countries are kept dependent of others; economically or for security (and their road to 'democracy').

ComradeMan
14th January 2010, 20:25
You know what, I am sick of this whining. All this constitutes is yet another example of your politicking to get unrestricted. Going behind everyone's back to cut a backroom deal was already bad enough, but this is just pathetic. Your humility doesn't fool anyone with two brain cells to rub together.

There are many, many people in OI who deserve unrestriction right now. A number of them are currently being discussed/voted on after months or even years in the OI--and you want to fast track your way out?

No, fuck that. Get in line.

Can we not assume good faith? What do you mean by cut a backroom deal anyway?

Anyway Khad, I asked for an answer to the question, not another attack.

On rereading my initial comments, on a thread that was somewhat derailed by the Afghanistan debate, I realise how they may have come across.

I now realise where my comments were misguided and naive. I have not used this as an oppurtunity to attack those whose own reactionary views have been questioned by others than myself and yet who have seemingly not been sanctioned.

ComradeMan
15th January 2010, 11:22
The fact is that it is up to the people of Afghanistan, and nobody else, if they want to choose feudal tribalism, Taliban theocracy, or to evolve toward socialism. At one time the Afghan people in droves chose the latter, and outside influence tipped the scales in favor of the warlords and their brutality and incompetence set the stage for the Taliban to come in and mop up.


I see your point. But let us not forget that the Taliban were funded by the US at one point. I also think that undermines other positions that have been expressed on Tibet for example and the Chinese "occupation". I agree with you on your final point. These outside influences are also very hypocritical in their positions.

Kayser_Soso
15th January 2010, 20:01
I see your point. But let us not forget that the Taliban were funded by the US at one point. I also think that undermines other positions that have been expressed on Tibet for example and the Chinese "occupation". I agree with you on your final point. These outside influences are also very hypocritical in their positions.

Uggghhh... I have to keep reminding people that it was the Mujahadeen, not the Taliban, who were funded by the US. Yes, the US later considered doing some business with them, and sure the Pakistani ISI had a lot to do with the Taliban- but the main thing is that the US funded the Mujahadeen movement, which in a way was later defeated by the Taliban(since it basically fell apart back into quarreling clans).

khad
15th January 2010, 20:05
Can we not assume good faith? What do you mean by cut a backroom deal anyway?
We all know about your PM antics to Malte.

Stop pretending to be naive. There's never been an OIer with a greater sense of entitlement and privilege.

ComradeMan
15th January 2010, 20:17
We all know about your PM antics to Malte.

Stop pretending to be naive. There's never been an OIer with a greater sense of entitlement and privilege.

What PM antics? I wrote an initial letter of complaint to the chief-admin and also wrote to other admins/mods. I am still restricted, so what's your beef?

What entitlement and privilege? Where are these priviliges I have in the gulag? Could you tell me? LOL!!!

And instead of derailing the thread, why don't you answer some of the questions raised? It's a good tactic to divert attention from the issue in hand but it is also counterproductive.

khad
15th January 2010, 20:28
What PM antics? I wrote an initial letter of complaint to the chief-admin and also wrote to other admins/mods. I am still restricted, so what's your beef?

What entitlement and privilege? Where are these priviliges I have in the gulag? Could you tell me? LOL!!!

And instead of derailing the thread, why don't you answer some of the questions raised? It's a good tactic to divert attention from the issue in hand but it is also counterproductive.
You very clearly offered a deal for unrestriction directly to the owner of the site. I'm not going to disclose the contents of your PM, but every mod has seen it, and none of us are fooled by your crude politicking.

And furthermore, learn to read, I said sense of entitlement. You obviously feel that you are entitled to go over everyone's head to make a backroom deal for your unrestriction, but I just think you are out of line.

ComradeMan
15th January 2010, 21:08
You very clearly offered a deal for unrestriction directly to the owner of the site. I'm not going to disclose the contents of your PM, but every mod has seen it, and none of us are fooled by your crude politicking.

And furthermore, learn to read, I said sense of entitlement. You obviously feel that you are entitled to go over everyone's head to make a backroom deal for your unrestriction, but I just think you are out of line.


Yawn.... a deal! Oh my word! What kind of a deal would that be? What have I got to offer? LOL!!! You are ridiculously trying to stir up suspicion when there is none to be had as part of your campaign against me.

Is there a rule that says you cannot go to the top if you feel aggrieved?

As for this sense of entitlement, well that's your opinion which you are free to think of course. You see what you want to see.

Please do disclose the contents of my PM, there's nothing to hide. Go for it, be my guest- you have my full blessing to do so.

But why not rather answer the questions here and stop derailing the thread?

ComradeMan
22nd January 2010, 11:24
Update:- I am reading a new book, "Le Anime Nere Del Capitalismo" by Gianni Flamini, one of Italy's "pistaroli" journalists in order that I might update my view and get more facts in an ongoing gesture of solidarity and goodwill.

(The Black Souls of Capitalism: Newton Compton: 2009- don't know if it's avaliable in English, don't think so.)