Marx on Capital Punishment

[btpound]

I came across this article that some of you may be familiar with:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1853/02/18.htm

The entire article is interesting, but what I would like to point out specifically is this:


It is astonishing that the article in question [A New York Times article on capital punishment] does not even produce a single argument or pretext for indulging in the savage theory therein propounded; and it would be very difficult, if not altogether impossible, to establish any principle upon which the justice or expediency of capital punishment could be founded, in a society glorying in its civilization.

Essentially, Marx is opposed to capital punishment and considers it a barbarous institution. But obviously he was a revolutionary and perhaps the first person to coin the phrase "class war". Certainly not shy about the use of violence, but opposed to capital punishment. How does this bode for countries like Russia and China who, in varying degrees, have dolled out their fair share of hangings and firing squads. Do you consider these acts as un-communist? Or simply a continuation of the class war? After all, most of the people who died in this way were actively trying to overthrow the revolutionary proletariat, or at least that was the story. Do you think that someone caught planning to overthrow the government with the plans and the means to do so should not be put to death? If not, then what?

Your thoughts.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

These acts were un-Socialist.

You must separate acts relating to revolution and class war, and acts which occur within the boundaries of (relatively) peaceful, civil society.

Capital Punishment, in China for example, is institutionalised for a whole range of offences which need not relate to counter-revolutionary or anti-Socialist activity (Drug offences, for example). This is clearly wrong.

However, the process of bringing down Capitalist institutions, and the defensive revolutionary war that then ensues (Against Capitalists of that nation and Imperialist Capitalists of other nations) is sure to leave collateral in its wake. The idea of class war being that, to win the war and for the revolution to succeed, the lives and economic position of the working class must first become dominion, and then be defended.

In short, one does not actively go looking for people - Capitalist or not - to attach to a noose. However, if people are actively engaging in highly criminal plots to bring down the revolution - assasinations, terrorist activities etc. - then they should face the harshest penalties. If the crime is unrelated, or only by proxy, to revolution - such as our recent drug trafficking example in China - then Capitalist Punishment is, as Marx correctly says, a 'barbaric institution', which we, as defenders of the exploited and advocates of a fair and humane society without class division, must condemn in the strongest terms.

[punisa]

After all, most of the people who died in this way were actively trying to overthrow the revolutionary proletariat, or at least that was the story. Do you think that someone caught planning to overthrow the government with the plans and the means to do so should not be put to death?

No. Why certain people throughout history are obsessed with death is beyond me ( Erich Fromm gave some could explanations )

besides the fact that it is not very humane, what would be the purpose? As far as I see it, the person voluntarily refused to become a part of a productive socialist working class, either by not conforming or even trying to overthrow the proletariat authority - thus "working class attitude" should be forced down on him (labor camps and similar) until he becomes one.

Death is nonsense and meaningless. Those parties that practiced it (and still do) have some serious holes in their plans to reach communism and will probably never reach it, eventually just drifting back towards full blown capitalism (USSR, Yugoslavia, China)

Class war, as a part of a revolutionary war to overthrow capitalism, now that is another thing.
Again, those that won't accept the fact that they will spend the rest of their lives as ordinary workers will be forced to do so - by simply stripping away all means that currently allow them to be non-workers (such as capitalists currently in power).
If their numbers are too high to conform to the new set of rules chosen by the majority (the working class) - then they will be killed and purged, simple as that really.

[cb9's_unity]

I agree that capital punishment is barbaric (and literally useless), but I don't think Marx's opinion on the issue matters much more than anyone else.

I would argue with anyone who defends capital punishment, but I don't think it necessarily makes them any less of a socialist.

[The Vegan Marxist]

There's also an issue on capital punishment where it leads to victimizing the poor, & especially the minorities (http://www.socialistaction.org/news/200105/death.html).

[btpound]

I feel that Marx's comments here are less political than moral. I think he is making the point that capital punishment is wrong across the board, be it capitalist or communist. I am certainly not trying to cast blame on the defenders of the revolution in China and Russia, but I think it is important to get a proper gauge of Marx's feelings on violence and where their boundaries lie.


Why certain people throughout history are obsessed with death is beyond me ( Erich Fromm gave some could explanations )

besides the fact that it is not very humane, what would be the purpose? As far as I see it, the person voluntarily refused to become a part of a productive socialist working class, either by not conforming or even trying to overthrow the proletariat authority - thus "working class attitude" should be forced down on him (labor camps and similar) until he becomes one.

I'm sure you would be less flippant about death if it was your life on the line. If it was you being put against the wall and fired on, your position on murder would be a little more hard nosed. I am not a liberal by any means. That being said all life is precious, and should be preserved. I don't accept this "if you wanna make an omlette you gotta break some eggs" argument. Especially considering Marx's views on capital punishment being so pronouced. Furthermore, we communists have a bit of a reputation considering humane treatment of people. I would like to see an expansion on human rights and socialism's positions on humane treatment of human beings, and even animals to a degree. Not even to say this sort of thing should be important to us, but it is something important to a lot of people. Especially among the more liberal working class. We should not argue this concept of treating all human beings with dignity out of them, but rather accommodate this view by developing a position on these issues. This is important in developing a mass line which will suit the material wants and needs of the people which is necessary to a successful revolutionary platform.

[punisa]

I'm sure you would be less flippant about death if it was your life on the line. If it was you being put against the wall and fired on, your position on murder would be a little more hard nosed.

I was in a war and had been shot at.
That situation can indeed make some people become more "hard nosed", but let me put the emphasis on "some people" and also let me exclude myself from that flock.
In a war zone you kill and slit throats with no remorse, but that is not an everyday situation - that is hell.
You kill to survive, nothing wrong with that.

But its the aftermath when many innocent people die, especially counting the political executions.
My stance is still pro life, if you catch a capitalist terrorist in your socialist paradise - shove him down in the mines for some hard work, execution is an easy way out :thumbup1:

[btpound]

so Marx's denunciation of capital punishment means nothing to you then?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

BT, I think the general view here is that Marx was right, but not because he is Marx; and indeed that many comrades' views would not change to 'Hang all the Capitalists and the opposition' even if Marx had said so because clearly, Marx would be wrong.

[9]

The Marx quote in the OP says very little of substance; basically that Marx was opposed to capital punishment carried out by the bourgeois state. It would have been rather shocking if he’d argued otherwise.
But some of the responses in this thread seem to be assuming – based on the particular quote in the OP and the corresponding article, which clearly refer to a bourgeois state – that this means Marx opposed executions unconditionally, regardless of who was carrying them out and in what context. I don’t know whether he ever articulated his view on this matter beyond what little he said in the article, but there is an important distinction to make. The article says nothing of his view of executions carried out by the working class during a revolutionary situation, and that is something quite different than the sort of execution he's speaking of.
While obviously such measures should be used as prudently as possible, I certainly would have no objection to the execution of particularly dangerous counterrevolutionaries by the workers during a revolutionary situation in instances where it is deemed necessary. I have a hard time believing that Marx would have been opposed to it either, but feel free to prove me wrong.