How prevelant is class today?

[Lyev]

I've been asking a lot of questions recently, sorry if it gets a bit annoying :rolleyes: but I feel as though the only way to get to get to a comfortable conclusion is to constantly question myself. So basically, how prevalent is class in modern, developed countries? Obviously, in Marx's time in Europe and America, the gap between capitalist and labourer were vast. I think there's a grain of truth in Bernstein when he says the more workers are active the more they'll make lives comfortable for themselves under capitalism. Of course I'm not saying that exploitation has ceased to exist or anything, but I was wondering if anyone knew of any books, statistics, or facts that point towards a prevelant capitalist class system today.

[mikelepore]

Reports like this are in the news constantly ...

"World's richest 1% own 40% of all wealth, UN report discovers" (2006)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2006/dec/06/business.internationalnews

Every time the subject is covered, different numbers are given, as though researchers can't agree on how to record or interpret the facts. But the common thread is always that wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few. It's revealing that this general pattern of sharp wealth concentration is always there even when independent study groups disagree on how to tabulate.

[Robocommie]

The Daily Show very recently had an excellent demonstration of the juxtaposition of classes. Clips from the media were shown where anchors and hosts cite reports that US unemployment remains at around 10% of the entire US population, without changes, and that 40% of those people have been out of work for 2 years or more.

Meanwhile, the same media outlets are reporting that the folks of Goldman Sachs and the like are getting bonus payouts at the same levels as before the credit crisis.

Regardless of whether the working class wins or loses, generally speaking, the rich ALWAYS win. And even when the working class wins, the rich get the lion's share.

[syndicat]

An excellent book on class is "The Working Class Majority" by Michael Zweig. But this is about the class structure of the USA. I'm not familiar with anything similar for UK.

[Joe_Germinal]

In the last 20 years, it's been quite common for bourgeois commentators to compose elegies to the disappearing working class. Even on the left, comrades tend to forget that in Marx's day there were hardly any working class people. Most of the people of the world were peasants. Marx and Engels correctly predicted that the working class would grow since its growth was necessary to the growth of capital. It is almost certain that there have never in world history been as many workers in the world as their are today.

As to the political trajectory of the working class, I don't think most workers are very contented under capitalism. You need only to speak for 15 minutes with someone who works for a living to hear a mountain of complaints all of which are caused by capitalist exploitation.

The real problem is not that workers are content, but rather that many are demoralized and unable to see how social change can alleviate these problems. That is one of the most important roles of revolutionaries, viz. showing ideologically backwards workers how their individual complaints are linked to the system of bourgeois exploitation, and that the working class itself has the power to end this exploitation.

[Dr Mindbender]

I've been asking a lot of questions recently, sorry if it gets a bit annoying :rolleyes: but I feel as though the only way to get to get to a comfortable conclusion is to constantly question myself. So basically, how prevalent is class in modern, developed countries? Obviously, in Marx's time in Europe and America, the gap between capitalist and labourer were vast. I think there's a grain of truth in Bernstein when he says the more workers are active the more they'll make lives comfortable for themselves under capitalism. Of course I'm not saying that exploitation has ceased to exist or anything, but I was wondering if anyone knew of any books, statistics, or facts that point towards a prevelant capitalist class system today.

Ive just started another thread on a similar question to this.

I think today, the extremities between upper and working class are more pronunced. However i think between its become more greyscale or at least the popular conception of it is, which is why i think explaining class politics to the layman is very awkward today.

[Decolonize The Left]

I've been asking a lot of questions recently, sorry if it gets a bit annoying :rolleyes: but I feel as though the only way to get to get to a comfortable conclusion is to constantly question myself. So basically, how prevalent is class in modern, developed countries? Obviously, in Marx's time in Europe and America, the gap between capitalist and labourer were vast. I think there's a grain of truth in Bernstein when he says the more workers are active the more they'll make lives comfortable for themselves under capitalism. Of course I'm not saying that exploitation has ceased to exist or anything, but I was wondering if anyone knew of any books, statistics, or facts that point towards a prevelant capitalist class system today.

It's important to remember that from a materialist perspective, class is not determined by wealth or money, rather, it is determined entirely by the relationship to the means of production.

So long as capitalism continues to function, class will continue to be extremely "prevalent in modern, developed countries." In fact, it will only become more prevalent as the capitalist class profits from the labor of the working class and thereby polarizes the two.

- August

[Nwoye]

So long as capitalism continues to function, class will continue to be extremely "prevalent in modern, developed countries." In fact, it will only become more prevalent as the capitalist class profits from the labor of the working class and thereby polarizes the two.
Not to try to infringe on the discussion of the other thread (although it might be a good idea if they were merged), but do you think this has actually occurred? I mean do you think that access to productive resources, say just in western developed nations, has really grown more scarce over the last century? Basically has Marx's prediction panned out.

[Os Cangaceiros]

As to the political trajectory of the working class, I don't think most workers are very contented under capitalism. You need only to speak for 15 minutes with someone who works for a living to hear a mountain of complaints all of which are caused by capitalist exploitation.

Agreed.

Most people don't look at their concerns in terms of class because (obviously) they look at the primary divisions of society in a different way. Hence talk of America (I'd assume that it's the same in other post-industrial nations) being a classless society because supposedly everyone has a chance of at least getting into the middle class, if not the upper class.

I think capitalism as it has developed and evolved has done an excellent job of not only creating a comfortable "middle-class" existence for some members of the working class, but also making them think that they're not even in the same league as other lower-class proles. Even though they most likely share the same relative position in society insofar as their economic relation to the means of production is concerned.

[Belisarius]

capitalism has ripped entire groups of the proletariat. workers aristocracy, middle class, etc.. it has alienated them from their former existence. even teh proletariat has turned into some kind of "consumer class" which just accepts capitalism and actually likes it (even if it's exploitative). everyone is against the rich exploiting the poor, but we can't give away our mcdonalds or cellphones that can do everything except calling someone.
classes are leveled into a consumer class. they still exist, but they are obscured.

[RadioRaheem84]

I used to think that for the most part in the Western world, especially in the US, that class was irrelevant. That it played no part in one's quest for social mobility. Well, after having been accepted into a good school and living in the midst of wealthy kids, you can bet your poor ass (and mine) that class is in fact still a major factor in this society. Whatever gains workers achieved during the Golden Age of capitalism, we actually tore them out of the capitalists hands. That's the only reason for the so called "classless society" we saw in the West. Even then, the capitalists shifted society to include anyone willing to be molded in order to uphold and defend the system. Rags to riches translates into 'working your way to the top to finally totally sell out and become a part of the establishment'. The other half was allowed to have a middle class life along with all of the consumer products that mask income disparity.

But in terms of "classless", the United States is a good example. If you're looking to be a capitalist or looking to work your way up the corporate ladder, the US has a whole range of opportunities to achieve these end goals. In this sense, the US is a 'free' and open society. It's amazing how people in the US can network, meet, or communicate with people in a higher class than they are. How close in proximity one can be or talk to a person of wealth. And if one works hard, educates themselves, and networks, it's astounding as to how close to achieving wealth one can be. If one allocates their funds well enough, they can dine at fancy restaurants, buy luxury clothing and afford a multitude of things that rich people can afford. But it will always be an illusion of grand proportions. The wealth gap will always exist and no matter how hard you work, how you're able to allocate your funds to meet a certain lifestyle, it will never be equal to those who own the means of production. You will always be selling your labor power, your potential to the highest bidder. All a "classless society" in the West means is a complex way of masking the horrible disparity of wealth. And not to mention that most people in the West do not want to admit the fact they're closer to being poor than rich.

[Belisarius]

i agree. classes still exists and workers still need to get what they need by means of force. but noweadays capitalism has obscured this inequality to save its ass. credit cards are a great example. everyone can buy whatever they want, because with a credit card you have a lot of money. but on the end of the month you're actually even poorer than without the card, since you've spent more than you have. while credit cards make people seem richer, it actually makes them poorer.

[Old Man Diogenes]

I've been asking a lot of questions recently, sorry if it gets a bit annoying :rolleyes: but I feel as though the only way to get to get to a comfortable conclusion is to constantly question myself. So basically, how prevalent is class in modern, developed countries? Obviously, in Marx's time in Europe and America, the gap between capitalist and labourer were vast. I think there's a grain of truth in Bernstein when he says the more workers are active the more they'll make lives comfortable for themselves under capitalism. Of course I'm not saying that exploitation has ceased to exist or anything, but I was wondering if anyone knew of any books, statistics, or facts that point towards a prevelant capitalist class system today.

I have a few from my A-Level Sociology book, 'According to HM Revenue and Customs, in 2003, 71% of all financial wealth in the UK was owned by just 10% of the population. To go on property ownership, the least wealthy 50% of the population only own about 7% of all wealth in the UK in 2003.' I hope that was the sort of thing you were looking for Comrade. :thumbup1:

[RadioRaheem84]

i agree. classes still exists and workers still need to get what they need by means of force. but noweadays capitalism has obscured this inequality to save its ass. credit cards are a great example. everyone can buy whatever they want, because with a credit card you have a lot of money. but on the end of the month you're actually even poorer than without the card, since you've spent more than you have. while credit cards make people seem richer, it actually makes them poorer.

Debt finance was a way to supplant the workers falling purchasing power. Without it, the middle class would've crumbled a long time ago. It was a great way for capitalists to save their ass and make a killing off of it!

[La Comédie Noire]

Speaking as someone from the United States:

The poor and exploited are there, they just don't show them on the TV news or in movies. It's all about where you look.

According to the media, Americans are middle class professionals who traverse the country in airplanes, using high tech cell phones to participate in online business meetings where they always have a say in how their company stocks are used. And after a hard day of decision making they can come home to their large apartments where they can choose between a night out on the town or a quiet evening at home climbing the stair master and watching their "favs" on their newly bought Flat Screens. Oh and except for a wise cracking doorman or an eccentric chinease delivery boy for comic relief, everyone in the world is white.

Of course this is bull shit, if you want to see how the under class really lives in America take a Greyhound Bus the next time you're state side. There all the seats are coach and the cell phones are prepaid cheapo models that work whenever they feel like it. And if you do have the "privilege" of buying stock in your company just remember you couldn't collect a sizable dividend on them even if you buried them in the desert for a 100 years. As for the finer things in life like the aforementioned stair master and flat screen don't expect to enjoy them anytime soon unless you are willing to put them on one of your various credit cards, but make sure its not the one paying the car insurance or the hospital bill for the time you broke your foot and your company HMO Wouldn't cover it.

Speaking of that, I have one more bit of advice, don't get sick! I don't care if you have to drink 5 cups of coffee and down Tylenol like skittles. A machine that runs at half capacity is a liability and will be dropped asap.

Of course you could always avoid all the hazards and live to the ripe old age of 65. Where your retirement fund and stocks will give you just enough money to stay out of poverty for two months, where, best case scenario, you'll die of a massive heart attack from years of eating substandard junk food you "chose" to eat.

The capitalist media portrays these misfortunes as the fault of individuals who unwisely lived beyond their means, but don't be fooled. It's built into the system.

[RadioRaheem84]

Solid. ^