New Ten Point Programme.

[AkirAmaruBolivar]

Once the left gets its act together and starts organising, we will have a huge chance to gain public support and create a propoganda storm.
Community programmes and a sure way to galvanize public opinion and stop the indoctrination of the working class into capitalism fascism and religeous fundamentalism.
What would you have on a ten point programme for a nation like the USA, which is far more right wing than Europe.
This would be mine.

What are your views, rebutals if you have any?

1.Free food, housing for all people.
2.The foundation of a peoples run non profit bank free from government.
3.Free education for all regardless of race, religeon, sex etc.
4.An End to All agressive imperialist wars and reperations for vietnam and all victims of US intervention.
5.Organise our communities to buy and sell to each other rather than buying from the capitalists.
6.The creation of a workers police,medical,fire team so our people do not come under police attack, do not have to watch our homes burn down because the fire brigade are too busy in a richer more "important" firefight, and to ensure free healthcare and drugs to our people.
7.Set up community Drug and Crime rehabilitation programmes.
8.Workers ran schools and libraries where our young and old people can study the ideals, strategy and economics of Marxism.
9.Get women in the community as well as men from all racial backgrounds to form a community board to address issues of self governence and anti government policy.
10.Unite with communities doing the same and form small, urban communities where the proletariat residing there are free from the state and form part of a small pocket which over time acts as a liberated zone.


Note.
No violence ie urban guerrilla violence can afford to be used and is completely counter revolutionary, please do not spam the thread with that Baader Meinhoff shit please, Than you.

[Rusty Shackleford]

8.Workers ran schools and libraries where our young and old people can study the ideals, strategy and economics of Marxism.i generally agree with all points but point 8. That point seems more like a biased form of education. all forms of leftist theory should be taught, or at least a generally agreed upon leftist theory to avoid propaganda struggles between various leftist camps.

Point 3 and 8 could simply be combined, and have revolutionary theory(not as a required course, but an elective) just be installed into the education systems set up by the communes.

also, reparations for Vietnam(why just Vietnam?) are a bit hard to achieve at this stage.

[AkirAmaruBolivar]

Yeah i just thought if we make this a clear and consise point "even most capies agree vietnam was a disgrace", then we can build a broader left movement than just marxist, and hopefully gage othr broader members of the left.

Thanks for a qucik, thoughtfull and spam free answer:)

[Stephen Colbert]

There needs to be something about open condemnation of fascism/ exclusivity of social policy?

Just a thought.

[AkirAmaruBolivar]

Yeah i was looking for some suggestions
Any will be apreciated

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

We should probably focus on first emancipating workers and facilitating revolution, rather than playing games of 'Fantasy Socialism.'

[AkirAmaruBolivar]

well that would be the way to free workwers, we cnat just have armed revolution without raising class consiousness you fucking moron

[robbo203]

.
5.Organise our communities to buy and sell to each other rather than buying from the capitalists..


How would this not be capitalism? In any case, it pressuposes the continued existence of the capitalists. How do you propose to acquire the necessary capital to compete against them in the market

[AkirAmaruBolivar]

wealth distribution

[AkirAmaruBolivar]

also, it would be capitalism, but is single communities bought from each other and strived to do all the things on the programme we would have pockets of radicalized proletariat, that is how we must build class consioussness in my opinion

[Prairie Fire]

Oh, this takes me back. As nostalgic as I am for the zeal examplified here, that is the extent of it's usefulness.

Now, I have to be political about this, so here we go:


Once the left gets its act together and starts organising,

Out of curiosity, what constitutes "Starting" organizing? When you speak of "the left", which country are you refering to, as many countries have a strong, mature and capable left that is leading the people in their struggles.

Even in North America though, to say that "the left" needs to "start" organizing is unfair, because "the left" never really stopped organizing.



What would you have on a ten point programme for a nation like the USA, which is far more right wing than Europe.


"Right wing" and "Left wing" become meaningless in this comparrison, because all of the states in these two territories are capitalist.

All of the major European countries (UK, France, Germany, etc), despite membership of communist parties in ruling parliamentary coalitions, social programs and environmentalism, all of these countries are imperialist states, with a capitalist socio-economic system.

France has some nationalized healthcare and social policies... and it also had a role in the overthrow of democratically elected Haitian president Jean Bertrand Aristide in 2004.

Germany (at one time) had a consensus in work places that allowed unions a larger role in participating in the running of industries, and they have also put forward much innovative use of green techonolgies and alternate energy. Germany also sent troops to Afghanistan and maintains them there as part of the military occupation of that country.

Of course, the German military is only for "defense," so how can they be an occupying power? :


The role of the Bundeswehr is described in the Constitution of Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Germany) (Art. 87a) as absolutely defensive only. Its only active role before 1990 was the Katastropheneinsatz (disaster control). Within the Bundeswehr, it helped after natural disasters both in Germany and abroad. After 1990, the international situation changed from East-West confrontation to one of general uncertainty and instability. Today, after a ruling of the Federal Constitutional Court in 1994 the term "defense" has been defined to not only include protection of the borders of Germany, but also crisis reaction and conflict prevention, or more broadly as guarding the security (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security) of Germany anywhere in the world. According to the definition given by former Defense Minister Struck, it may be necessary to defend Germany even at the Hindu Kush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_Kush). This requires the Bundeswehr to take part in operations outside of the borders of Germany, as part of NATO or the European Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union) and mandated by the UN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN).


:rolleyes:

Again, the various conciliations of social-democratic Europe really are not qualitatively different than the Imperialist USA (which is also trying to bring in social-dem carrots for their own workers, like pseudo-nationalized healthcare).

An imperialist country with an exploitive capitalist economic system is unjust, no matter what rhetoric they employ or what token conciliations they make.

Okay, let us look at your list:



1.Free food, housing for all people.

Guaranteed food and housing would probably be more sensible.


2.The foundation of a peoples run non profit bank free from government.

Erm, what is this?

Why must it be "free from government"? Why do you see the "people" and the "government" as being seperate entities in a hypothetical socialist society?

As a "Marxist-Leninist-Gueverist", not only should it stand to reason that you uphold the dictatorship of the proletariat , but it would also stand to reason that you would know Marx's position on this matter (incidently, he made a ten points just like you):


5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly
- Karl Marx, Manifesto of the Communist Party
http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm

If you are going to identify as a "Marxist", it would help if you held positions consistant with Marxism.


3.Free education for all regardless of race, religeon, sex etc.

Eh?

I think that it is pretty much implied that all measures advocated by a Marxist-Leninist organization are "regardless of race, religion,gender, etc".


4.An End to All agressive imperialist wars and reperations for vietnam and all victims of US intervention.

Agreed, but as others have pointed out, it is bizzare that you have singled out Vietnam thirty years later, as opposed to more recent victims of US imperialist aggression with fresh bomb craters in their soil (ie. Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Haiti, etc...).

I realize that your proposition includes these countries as well, but the example that you chose seems a bit of a historical anachronism for 2010. We don't need to tail the sixties, we have our own imperialist wars to oppose right here in the present.


5.Organise our communities to buy and sell to each other rather than buying from the capitalists.

Oh, okay. Local capitalism.

This doesn't necesarilly advocate that the proletariat sieze the means of production, but it implies that they would need to possess some sort in order to manufacture goods to "Buy and sell".

On the one hand, you are openly advocating for the petty-bourgeois-ification of the working class, on the other you seem to be favouring the position that we can side-step the capitalists and beat them at their own game rather than confronting them.

Ignore the fact that small producers will never be able to produce the quantity of goods and offer them as cheaply as large industrialized producers (ie. bourgeoisie).

Also, your entire appeal is class vague, because you focus on Communities rather than classes. In this very social-democratic strategy "communities" become the factor for change, as does small buisness ownership and "buying local".

:rolleyes:


6.The creation of a workers police,medical,fire team so our people do not come under police attack,

If you are proposing a "parrellel state" apparatus, this mode of struggle is very exclusive to certain conditions.

If you have the mass support of the working people to create such full-time institutions (cops, fire department,etc), chances are you have the power to overthrow the bourgeois state itself, and therefore have workers rule become the primary legislative body (rather than a parrallel government to the bourgeois state).


do not have to watch our homes burn down because the fire brigade are too busy in a richer more "important" firefight,

:lol:.

Is this really the primary issue affecting the proletariat of the world today (so much so that it needs to be included in a ten point program?)?


and to ensure free healthcare and drugs to our people.

By "drugs", I assume that you mean perscription pharmaceuticals, not stimulants?
too vague.


7.Set up community Drug and Crime rehabilitation programmes.

Again with this anti-class analysis appeal to the community as the force for change.

I detect an overt aversion to any sort of state organization (god forbid) in your idealism, so naturally you revert to the feel-good alternative of "communities" as the highest administrative organ.

Again, before you appropriate titles like "Marxist" and/or "Leninist" for yourself, it may be a good idea to read some Marx and Lenin. Niether opposed "the state" in abstraction, just the state in the hands of bourgeoisie as a class.

http://marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/index.htm



8.Workers ran schools and libraries where our young and old people can study the ideals, strategy and economics of Marxism.

:lol: :lol: :lol:.

I think that you should study the "ideals, strategy and economics of Marxism", before you advocate it for anyone else. :laugh:

Anyways, in prinicple I agree with you here, but again their is a noticible aversion to any form of state organization in your propostions.



9.Get women in the community as well as men from all racial backgrounds to form a community board to address issues of self governence

Again we get back to "the community" as the highest organ of public legislation and governance, followed in the same sentence by:


...and anti government policy.

Okay, a few logistical problems with this:

1. "Community" governance is still a form of government, so any community organization would not be "anti-government", nor would it's policies.

2. You still seem to imply that this hypothetical "community" organizing would still be existing parrallel with another legislative entity, presumably the bourgeois state (although you show aversion to a workers state as well).

3. In your zeal to go from a capitalist mode of production directly to a decentralized, non-state form of the final stage of communism, your persynal whims take the front seat over wether or not this is feasible, or wether historically it ever has been.

Again, I can't stress enough that you read the most basic texts of Marxism-Leninism before dropping their names willy-nilly.


10.Unite with communities doing the same and form small, urban communities where the proletariat residing there are free from the state and form part of a small pocket which over time acts as a liberated zone.

This cements your oppostion to states, but also cements that these are tactics that recommend for the struggle to take power against the bourgeois stat (ie. formation of a parrallel government in a bourgeois state).

Again, to me it seems un-necesary, because if you have enough mass power to completelty sieze whole "communities" away from the various appendages of bourgeois state power, to the point where you can form whole liberated zones, then you probably also have the forces necesary to make a play for the state itself, and wipe out the political power of the exploiting class.

Of course, you are opposed to all "States", in a non- Marxist, non-Leninist fashion, so...

And, for the Pièce de résistance:



No violence ie urban guerrilla violence can afford to be used and is completely counter revolutionary,


So, you are going to liberate whole communities, create parrallel forms of workers governance, and squeeze out the bourgeois state and large capitalist producers, all without violence of any kind?

Presumably, will the proletariat get Unicorns as well? Maybe include a few points about Unicorns (Community unicorns, of course).

I'm not saying that Marxism-Leninism is not feasible; I'm saying that what you are proposing is not Marxism-Leninism. A level-headed materialist approach, rooted in deep analysis (espcially a bit of historical precendents) would do you some serious good.

Seriously, before you claim the prestige of Marx,Engels,Lenin, and in this case Guevera, investigate their actual positions before assigning your own whims to their names.

[ContrarianLemming]

akir it seems to me you should be an anarchist, just from reading this

[Prairie Fire]

It seems to me that he is an anarchist, just from reading this.

Wether or not that is something that he "should be", or wether or not that is something that is going to take him in a productive and tangible revolutionary direction is debatable.

[AkirAmaruBolivar]

This is a programme for small single communities while we live under capitalism, i meant free from the bourgeois government control on the non profit bank issue, not government as a whole.

Ithought that was obvious comrade.
This is not for making a country socialist, its to radicalize and politicize small communities, this will make a healthy breeding ground for future revolution, if this happens in lots of communities whole parts of the working class would be politicized.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

You mean communes?

Read up about Kommune 1. Often these small communal areas, as you seem to suggest, do not attract enough members, and resort to lower tactics to attract attention. Indeed, their aim often becomes the distorted one of achieving attention rather than educating the working class.

[AkirAmaruBolivar]

Demsoc, i should apologise for the totally unmerrited verbal triade i launched on you earlier.
I did at the time think you were being an ass, but i am now sure you had no intenion of being so
Sorry