Red Army Faction

[Faust]

What does everyone here think about the red army faction?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

You seem intent on supporting guerilla warfare within the context of a first world country.

As romantic and heroic (and indeed, emotive) as such struggle seems, it is simply a bad idea. The need to struggle and become archaic - not even anarchic - often overrides the two most important pillars of Socialism, namely gaining the support of, educating and organising the working class, and maintaining a solid theoretical base from which to advance the cause of Socialism.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

And, on the RAF itself, a well meaning movement that failed simply because it was isolated from the will of the majority of the people and from what was best for the majority of the workers.

Sporadic attacks against Capitalist institutions that take working people as collateral will not lead to revolution nor the emancipation of the working class in any way.

[rebelmouse]

it is question of interest for secret agency, to see what we think about armed fight against ruling class. this topic will be read from spies.
but who don't care about spies, he can answer.
from me: all respect for members of RAF, they left good life and chose to take a risk on the level of death, in order to damage ruling class, to stop imperialist system, how much they can as a group. but in their time existed many other groups in other countries who did the same.

[bcbm]

they were brave and should be respected as any other militants of the class struggle, but their strategy was completely flawed, detrimental to the movement and suicidal.

[The Red Next Door]

They were trying to fight for the common man but they went about it in a way that destroy the objective that we are trying to create.

[Atlanta]

they were ultra left and adventurous similar to the weathermen in the US. Mostly I think the result of frustration due to the perceived failure of the mass movements in Germany as terrorism often is

[ReggaeCat]

i hate those actions although i respect them(RAF) for fighting for what they beleived...nowdays in greece..they put bombs,they shoot cops...yesterday the put a bomb near the parliament....all they do(the politicians) is putting harder laws and more aggresive cops on us...i mean..next time in a demo cops will be more violent...new laws will emerge and it pretty fucked up.....god some people are damn stupid...:glare:

[The Ungovernable Farce]

He was the best poster ever. Oh, wait, you meant the group? As usual, BCBM hits the nail on the head. The emancipation of the working class can only be the act of the working class itself, not a few isolated militants with guns.

[Tablo]

They had the best of intentions, but the fight was lost from the very beginning. It is a good example why militancy without out mass organization and understanding of our ideals is pointless.

[Faust]

He was the best poster ever. Oh, wait, you meant the group? As usual, BCBM hits the nail on the head. The emancipation of the working class can only be the act of the working class itself, not a few isolated militants with guns.


I believe that the RAF meant to fight AS the working class. But I believe a struggle of this sort would be possible within a first world country, providing the actions of the revolutionary groups were used as an aid to the rest of the revolution instead of the sole means of destroying the state.

When people see that others are fighting for freedom and equality, then I'm certain that they too would begin to look a little closer at the problems they themselves have. Whether or not they join with the movement is irrelevant. They will begin to think a little more for themselves, and this consciousness is what is needed for the revolution to occur.

I'm not advocating this as the sole instrument in the struggle against capitalism, not at all.



In regards to the RAF, I respect their goals and their actions, at least at first.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The problem, Faust, is that obviously such RAF-type warfare will be at the behest, and indeed in the hands of, a very small minority of people, often numbering a dozen or two at the most, in terms of the leadership. The problem, then, is this: How does one educate the working class? You see, there is a difference between enacting class consciousness, and simply encouraging ordinary workers to pick up guns and commit acts of terror. Without a solid theoretical base, and a clear direction for such a movement, it would prove remarkably difficult to educate workers in Socialism. You then also have to consider that if the gun is your first reaction, you are going to find it difficult to then preach for a peaceful, utopian-like society, since you will merely seem hypocritical. This is not to say that all armed revolution is to end in failure, but merely that our first port of call should be to educate the working class and nudge them into their own class consciousness. Any revolution should be organic. Revolutions that have only the passing sympathies of the working class, or those that are in fact revolutions in name only (a coup d'etat 'in the name of Socialism') likely end in failure, for the working class at least.

[bcbm]

When people see that others are fighting for freedom and equality, then I'm certain that they too would begin to look a little closer at the problems they themselves have. Whether or not they join with the movement is irrelevant. They will begin to think a little more for themselves, and this consciousness is what is needed for the revolution to occur.

yes, basically every armed group in the 1970's believed that by attacking the state they would be able to expose its true nature as authoritarian/fascist by forcing it into extreme measures or possibly dictatorship (the strategy of tension) and that, upon seeing this, the masses would rise up against it. obviously, things didn't quite work out that way.

[Delenda Carthago]

Does anyone know what was happening in Germany before and while RAF was around?

[bcbm]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_student_movement

[rebelmouse]

Does anyone know what was happening in Germany before and while RAF was around?
about RAF you can read here also:
http://www.inventati.org/anarhizam/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2415
conditions which brought people to create RAF was repression during and after demos 1968. police shot one demonstrant, I think his name was benno ohnesorg, and it was moment when people decided to create RAF. This led to setting of fire in several police station from the group concisted from: Thorwald Proll, Hoerst Zoenlein, Gudrun Ennslin i Andreas Baader. Baader and his girl Gudrun made arson bombing of a Frankfurt department store. and so on....
during their actions, of course, there were people who spoke bad about them, but I don't like them. there were crowd of people who liked RAF and helped them. beside it, they had 3 generations, so it is long period and surely opinions in leftist movement were turbulent all these years.

Media polls showed in that time that every third young person in Germany would give accommodation to members of RAF on the run. Actions of RAF gave inspiration to the other to make such actions, so there were created groups “2.Juni Movement” and “Revolutionary Cells”. They attacked also banks, police and capitalists. “2.Juni” set a bomb together with IRA in British Yacht Club.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

While we're listing the achievements of the Red Army Faction, let's not forget to mention that their activities gave the German government the excuse to push through the ban on careers in 1972 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berufsverbot), which banned communists from working in public sector jobs such as teaching. Great job, guys!

[AkirAmaruBolivar]

Urban Guerrilla Warfare is pointless, You have to surround the cities, not let a few bombs off in them.

[Bitter Ashes]

I think groups like the Angry Brigade, RAF, or Weathermen do develop out of frustration and impatience. I'd be suprised if any of the above groups didn't just create the justification after they'd decieded upon the means. Yes, we all get frustrated and I think there comes a point for most individuals when we hang up our placards and hand over to another generation, or a minority decieded to take thier frustration out directly at the capitalist system. They'll justify it to themselves as propaganda of the deed, or wanting to create an inspiration for the working class, or whatever, but we all know that there's better ways to do that and when groups like RAF take up arms as a self-appointed vanguard, they do so primarily with anger in thier hearts.

We've all felt it havent we? When we get kettled by the police, or we spend a week handing out hundreds of flyers and not getting a single response, or when a die-hard Tory tries to bend your ear in the pub to tell you what he thinks socialism is. Even with more personal things like when you get fired from a job, or the bank sends you a penalty charge notice, or the jobcentre fucks you around. We grit our teeth and ride through the hard times, but we know we can't do it forever. Even I'll admit that I've allowed myself fantasies of taking direct action against balliffs, or banks who have wronged me and other workers. When you get to that point though, I think most would agree that it'd be a lot better for the left for you to hang up the steelies, rather than brewing Potasium-Nitrate in your bathtub.

[AkirAmaruBolivar]

A Comrade who educates 5 youths who become marxists does more than a communist who gives up and becomes a useless urban guerrilla.

[Hiero]

Note to use this as a reliable reference, but from the movie the Baader Meinhof Complex, the characters continue to say that they will not do what their parents did and sit around and be passive while fascism is being installed.

That sound like it has been pulled from RAF ideology, given that this were young adults who were born at the end of war and grew up learning what Germany had become. I mean I have thought about it alot, and if something like Nazi Germany were to arise again it would be quite legitimate tactic to fight back in anyway possible. In mentality I can see why the RAF did what it did.

I think this might be the same as the Japanese Red Army, but I am just speculating.

If someone could clarify on this it would bve great.

[Devrim]

they were brave and should be respected as any other militants of the class struggle, but their strategy was completely flawed, detrimental to the movement and suicidal.

Which brings up the question of whether people should be respected for being detrimental to the class struggle. I don't think these people were 'militants of the class struggle' either though. They were middle class elitists.


i respect them(RAF) for fighting for what they beleived..

Lots of people fight for what they believe including fascist, religious fundamentalists and many others. Should we respect them too?


They had the best of intentions,...

and the road to hell is paved with them.

Devrim

[AkirAmaruBolivar]

Which brings up the question of whether people should be respected for being detrimental to the class struggle. I don't think these people were 'militants of the class struggle' either though. They were middle class elitists.



Lots of people fight for what they believe including fascist, religious fundamentalists and many others. Should we respect them too?



and the road to hell is paved with them.

Devrim


EXACTLY i thought everyone would spew pro RAF shit forever

[Jolly Red Giant]

EXACTLY i thought everyone would spew pro RAF shit forever
+1

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Note to use this as a reliable reference, but from the movie the Baader Meinhof Complex, the characters continue to say that they will not do what their parents did and sit around and be passive while fascism is being installed.

That sound like it has been pulled from RAF ideology, given that this were young adults who were born at the end of war and grew up learning what Germany had become. I mean I have thought about it alot, and if something like Nazi Germany were to arise again it would be quite legitimate tactic to fight back in anyway possible. In mentality I can see why the RAF did what it did.

If someone could clarify on this it would bve great.
Yeah, they did see themselves as carrying on the anti-fascist struggle. This was given added plausibility by the number of former nazis who had prominent roles in the Federal Republic, like Hans-Martin Schleyer, the industrialist and former SS man the RAF killed in 1977. They also saw the mass slaughters going on in Vietnam and the Middle East as being like the Holocaust (personally, I think that comparison was really flawed.) Of course, the liberal democratic government also proclaimed that, unlike in the 20s and 30s, they weren't going to let violent extremists overthrow democracy and that they were also going to "fight back in any way possible."
I think the Italian Red Brigades might be a more accurate comparison than the Japanese in that respect, especially since the Red Brigades had the memory of the partisans to draw on. I think they were an understandable development in the context of German history, but I also think the anti-Deutsch are understandable in the context of German history, it doesn't make their analysis any less fucked.

Which brings up the question of whether people should be respected for being detrimental to the class struggle. I don't think these people were 'militants of the class struggle' either though. They were middle class elitists.
I thought you had a two-class analysis? Nothing specifically against you, but I've noticed a lot of people with a two-class analysis (and I completely include myself in this) suddenly change to a three-class one when a student or other "culturally middle-class" person says something they disagree with. I don't deny that their vision of socialism was completely elitist, but I think that a lot of working-class people have very elitist understandings of socialism.

[Edelweiss]

While we're listing the achievements of the Red Army Faction, let's not forget to mention that their activities gave the German government the excuse to push through the ban on careers in 1972 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berufsverbot), which banned communists from working in public sector jobs such as teaching. Great job, guys!

That is a quiet stupid comment. The only one to blame here for the increased repression is the bourgeois state of the federal republic of Germany. Even if you disagree with the tactics of the RAF, you shouldn't legitimate and justify the repression by blaming the RAF for increased anti-communist repression of the 1970s in Germany. The only one to blame for repression are the repressors. This is a rule which is valid no matter what excuse is used, may it be black bloc riots, urban guerilla or Islamist terrorism.

Nevertheless was it of course just one of the major goals of the RAF to provoke the bourgeois state to show their true, ugly "fascist" face, in the logic of the RAF. By that they wanted to gain the mass support. They did partly succeed in provoking the state to make all kind of stupid laws and measures of repression against the Left, or to delivering an excuse for that. But as we all know, they did never even remotely gain any mass support.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Which brings up the question of whether people should be respected for being detrimental to the class struggle. I don't think these people were 'militants of the class struggle' either though. They were middle class elitists.


If you go down that road then you could ask the question, that by such logic, we should have no respect for the majority of our fellow comrades who, in the past two decades especially, have fallen victim to rampant sectarianism, which has been of huge detriment to the emancipation of working people.

If you don't wish to respect the RAF, at least acknowledge that their intentions were honest, if misguided.

[Devrim]

I thought you had a two-class analysis? Nothing specifically against you, but I've noticed a lot of people with a two-class analysis (and I completely include myself in this) suddenly change to a three-class one when a student or other "culturally middle-class" person says something they disagree with. I don't deny that their vision of socialism was completely elitist, but I think that a lot of working-class people have very elitist understandings of socialism.

Yes, I see your point here. To me though the term that was used, 'militants of the class struggle' implies workers who are experienced in struggle and respected by their workmates, not some student who decides to bomb somewhere. I don't think that this is class struggle at all, but individualistic terrorism.

There 'middle class' does exist as a cultural/sociological phenomenon and whilst many of these people may actually be a part of the working class, I don't think it is quite right to describe any students, lawyers, or journalists, who pick up a gun or a bomb as 'militants of the class struggle'.

Devrim

[Tablo]

Lots of people fight for what they believe including fascist, religious fundamentalists and many others. Should we respect them too?


They were not fascists. They fought for what WE believe in too. They were fighting for Communism. They didn't go about it in a way that I think was appropriate, but it isn't like they are Capitalists or Fundamentalists, so don't compare them to that.

And by your logic I guess that makes all of us on this site on the same level as fascists.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

They were not fascists. They fought for what WE believe in too. They were fighting for Communism. They didn't go about it in a way that I think was appropriate, but it isn't like they are Capitalists or Fundamentalists, so don't compare them to that.

And by your logic I guess that makes all of us on this site on the same level as fascists.

I read this post and punched a hamster to death. I thought id let you know.

[Devrim]

They were not fascists. They fought for what WE believe in too. They were fighting for Communism. They didn't go about it in a way that I think was appropriate, but it isn't like they are Capitalists or Fundamentalists, so don't compare them to that.

What I was saying was not that they were fascists, but that the whole thing about 'fighting for what you believe in', or 'fighting bravely' is purely emotive, and has nothing to do with a class analysis. Lots of people with all sort of ideologies do it, and in itself, it is meaningless.

Devrim

[rebelmouse]

without emotions, there will be never revolution:)
workers are exploited, so of course, they hate their chefs, directors, owner of company...
beside it, when anarchist say WORKERS we mean ALL exploited people, and not only those who really work in factory or on the land. so, even students are exploited, they must borrow money to study and they have debts because of studying. so, they have legitimate right to decide about type of actions against ruling class.

[Edelweiss]

Note: off-topic post by Dean and BobKKKindle$ deleted. Another victory for ZOR - Zionists over Revleft. ;)

I'm not willing to discuss my line on Israel and the middle east in every thread I post, nor I want you to check every of my posts for any alleged inconsequence with my line on Israel. This is a thread about the RAF and not about my opinion on Israel. I won't allow to let this thread, nor any other, degenerate into "Malte vs. anti-Zionists part 145245".

Stop stalking me, please. Your hysteria and obsession about my alleged Zionist line is becoming nothing but utterly ridiculous.

Edit: Posted a reply on my profile.

[Belisarius]

What I was saying was not that they were fascists, but that the whole thing about 'fighting for what you believe in', or 'fighting bravely' is purely emotive, and has nothing to do with a class analysis. Lots of people with all sort of ideologies do it, and in itself, it is meaningless.

Devrim
i agree with what you are saying about emotion and the RAF. I think the conclusion we should take from the RAF is that a revolution shouldn't start in a communist party or grouping, but among the workers themselves. otherwise there is no way of keeping socialism sustainable or durable. the communist parties can only make the workers aware of their situation and offer their help when a revolution starts, but they can't start it themselves. the RAF tried to do that through violence and (we have to agree on this) it was a failure, since everything went back to the same old capitalism.

[Turinbaar]

Stalinist ratbags

[Invincible Summer]

Stalinist ratbags

Instead of making useless defamatory statements, could you provide a more concrete criticism of the RAF?

I think most of us can relate to the anger and impatience found in a lot of the militant movements in the 60s-80s, but they are obviously flawed. Instead of educating the population about the enemy, they'd rather just blow shit up/shoot people and hope that the working class will understand these attacks as symbolic of a need to dismantle capitalism? I think that most people don't have time to read into the platform or intentions of these "militant communist" movements, and will just see such actions as mindless violence and terror.