how people see communism, the image it have and what should be done [Archive]

danyboy27

10th January 2010, 00:34

this is mainly a brainstorming, i already had a topic like that but its really old.
i saw something similar in the strategy forum too.

I think communism have a lot of stigma about what some people would call the old days ; stalin, mao, che, lenin, marx etc etc etc.

that the conception of communism for most people: dead dictators and dead politicians.

if you look at capitalism in general, this ideology have been able verry wisely to hid itself behind a really elaborated scheme of principles and ideas rather than being labelled on some verry specific person.

for exemple, go ask to your avearge joe the first thing that come in his mind when you mention communism, and he will mention, mao, stalin.

do the same experiment with capitalism and he more likely to say opportunity, freedom, freewill.

i think the whole scheme have gone too far, its time to drop the dead dictator and to take those words back to socialism and communism.

IcarusAngel

10th January 2010, 00:58

Well, yes. this is what many communists have been trying to do. I'm not much of a fan on insisting that X ideology be called this and Y ideology be called that. For example, "Libertarian," esp. with a capital L, is probably gone, but we could describe a free system of cooperatives in a better way.

Syndicalism could be another way of describing anything from communism to Libertairan-socialism. To emphasize that the workers should own the means of productions is the point.

Dimentio

10th January 2010, 01:03

Change the name. Keep the theories but erase the names of the leaders. Change the colour into blue or yellow.

Voilà, you will soon increase the members of the organisations with 100-200%.

danyboy27

10th January 2010, 01:08

Change the name. Keep the theories but erase the names of the leaders. Change the colour into blue or yellow.

Voilà, you will soon increase the members of the organisations with 100-200%.

tanks for the sarcasm but i dont see it that way.

there is no magic recipies and those changes take times

Bud Struggle

10th January 2010, 02:13

tanks for the sarcasm but i dont see it that way.

there is no magic recipies and those changes take times

I don't think that was scarcasm (though maybe a bit tongue in cheek.) Communism is a good idea, it has some flaws, and it has some BAD history, and it has its fair shair of wackos trying to sell it--but it's a good idea.

Internally we need to distance ourselves from the Stalins and the Trotskys, get over the fact that it just may not be the perfect Marxism to comes to fruition and realize that nobody is going to pay attention to a bunch of ironfisted fanatics screaming on street corners.

Externally we have to make Communism palatable to the masses in easy doses. Maybe someone like Obama is a good first step, I don't know. Communism has to become mainstream--not just in semi-clandestine websites and vague and complicated Rhetoric. Here in America it can't be anti-American. "America Sucks" won't get Communism anywhere. The message has to be positive and straightforward.

Communsim has dug itself into a hole and it's going to take a lot of work to get out. People like the Technocrats are a good step forward.

danyboy27

10th January 2010, 03:46

I think communism have a great potential in america, but the people who are currently trying to sell it just dont do it properly.

From my knowledge a huuge deal of american are against statism. Ho what a coincidence, we are against statism too!

The rampant anti-communism that is crawling in the united state is enforced with the idea that communist love statism, that communists like governements.

americans love democracy. hoo what a coincidence! we love democracy too!

then again, that anti-communism is caused by that whole myth that we want a group of people to decide what is good for the people, but vanguardism is like stamp collection; only a fews people really like this idea and this is not exclusive for the left.

Anti-statism is the right way to reach the american.

then, after the governement is decentralized, we could efficiently deal with the real issues of communism

dar8888

10th January 2010, 05:14

I think communism have a great potential in america, but the people who are currently trying to sell it just dont do it properly.

I've always thought that American Communists spend too much time arguing about Mao and Stalin (or Trotsky), and not enough time focusing on the basic principles.

danyboy27

10th January 2010, 05:21

I've always thought that American Communists spend too much time arguing about Mao and Stalin (or Trotsky), and not enough time focusing on the basic principles.

well, i read your latest blog entry and i dont agree with it.

stalin and mao idea are not something that is made for the world of today.

people are sick of elitism you know.

dar8888

10th January 2010, 06:23

well, i read your latest blog entry and i dont agree with it.

stalin and mao idea are not something that is made for the world of today.

people are sick of elitism you know.

Perhaps you are unaware of the meaning of elitism, but my blog - and what I said in my above post - are as far from being elitist as you can get.

I suggested people getting organised around principles, and not around any particular figure.

If I had said Mao is better than any other Communist, and everyone must follow him to the exclusion of all others - now that would be elitist.

ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR

10th January 2010, 08:43

Well, communism is seen as an "unholy" and "immoral" system here in America. It is seen as the worst system put there due to the mass bourgeois propaganda imposed upon the American people. What is need is a vanguard of the proletariat to unite the masses. Unfortunately there are two many so called "people's parties" that claim to have it all. In reality these groups are a bunch of profit making scum bags. For example you have the CPUSA, the RCP and a bunch of other so called "parties". As you see there isn't a legitimately solid party doing things for the people.

So to sum it up we need a vanguard. The Black Panthers were doing a good job fighting for the oppressed communities here in the belly of the beast. But due to some errors were defeated by the CIA filth.

There is currently 1 organization that is genuinely doing things for the people. That organization is the Black Riders Liberation Party. They are providing food for those who need it, they are also patrolling the pigs in the ghettoes and barrios. That is what has to be done. Malcom X once said "stop singing and start swinging". This holds truth in actuality due to the "singing" i.e talking of many party and no action.

danyboy27

10th January 2010, 16:09

Perhaps you are unaware of the meaning of elitism, but my blog - and what I said in my above post - are as far from being elitist as you can get.

I suggested people getting organised around principles, and not around any particular figure.

If I had said Mao is better than any other Communist, and everyone must follow him to the exclusion of all others - now that would be elitist.

well, the problem is, the idea of mao and stalin are basicly blueprint for elitism.

the whole idea of having a revolutionary class organising all around the worker, a vanguard party that will coordonate the masses, that sound like elitism and the only type of people this kind of thing attrack are the powermonger.

We dont need an elite, we need normal people, organising a new democracy, a democracy around the worker.

Worker are sick of being used has a tool, and the last thing they want is another class of elite, party cadres, Uber communist to tell them what to do to be a real revolutionary.

The people choice, that what matter.

dar8888

10th January 2010, 17:59

well, the problem is, the idea of mao and stalin are basicly blueprint for elitism.

the whole idea of having a revolutionary class organising all around the worker, a vanguard party that will coordonate the masses, that sound like elitism and the only type of people this kind of thing attrack are the powermonger.

We dont need an elite, we need normal people, organising a new democracy, a democracy around the worker.

Worker are sick of being used has a tool, and the last thing they want is another class of elite, party cadres, Uber communist to tell them what to do to be a real revolutionary.

The people choice, that what matter.

That is basically what I'm saying: forget the leaders of the past, and apply the principles. Most people know that they are being exploited, but they don't know what to do about it - and capitalism offers no suggestions.

I believe in the pinciples of Marxism-Leninism, and those principles are all about normal workers.

I would never tell someone that they have to follow Trotsky, or Stalin, or Mao, or etc... - to the exclusion of anyone else. The core principles are the same, anyway. I try to explain the situation from a Marxist-Leninist view. The alternative is endless oppression - or anarchy (which has its own issues).

danyboy27

10th January 2010, 18:01

That is basically what I'm saying: forget the leaders of the past, and apply the principles. Most people know that they are being exploited, but they don't know what to do about it - and capitalism offers no suggestions.

I believe in the pinciples of Marxism-Leninism, and those principles are all about normal workers.

I would never tell someone that they have to follow Trotsky, or Stalin, or Mao, or etc... - to the exclusion of anyone else. The core principles are the same, anyway. I try to explain the situation from a Marxist-Leninist view. The alternative is endless oppression - or anarchy (which has its own issues).

then again, has i said earlier, marxism-leninism is just a form of leftism elitism.

dar8888

10th January 2010, 18:08

then again, has i said earlier, marxism-leninism is just a form of leftism elitism.

Well, then nothing will ever change. There will never be any movement which is embraced by 100% of the people. Some of the most badly exploited people believe that the only way out is to become rich themselves. Why do you think the U.S. has so many immigrants? They don't come here for the clean air - they come because they believe they can make it big.

Bud Struggle

10th January 2010, 18:18

Last Friday my company installed a bunch of equipment in a laundry in a large hotel in Florida. Friday evening way after my guys went home I went into the laundry to inspect things and just make sure everything was done properly. As I was checking things over I was also lending a hand to the guy that was working there--taking stuff in and out of big washing machines and dryers.

I chatted a bit with the guy, exchanged names--I just said I worked for my company--he didn't have a clue who I was, I was just a worker like him. His name was James and he was here about six months from Haiti. After an hour or so he asked me: "Are you a Christian man? I said "Yes" and he said: "then we are brothers" and shook my hand. He then invited me to come with him at his dinner time.

At 8:30 he clocked out for dinner and we went to the back of the hotel where there were about 25 to 30 hotel workers: Blacks, Mexicans, Haitians, Whites, who knows who else standing around a grill with a fire going. We sang "Amazing Grace" and then something similar in Spanish and someone gave a quick talk about Jesus and everyone went off to eat their dinner.

Get people to do that for Communism and you'll have your Revolution in spades.

danyboy27

10th January 2010, 18:34

Well, then nothing will ever change. There will never be any movement which is embraced by 100% of the people. Some of the most badly exploited people believe that the only way out is to become rich themselves. Why do you think the U.S. has so many immigrants? They don't come here for the clean air - they come because they believe they can make it big.

you are so wrong. IF there is something that is embraced by about 90% of the american its anti-statism.

leftist, libertarian, right wing, they all want to get rid of the fucking state. that the only thing we will ever have in common.

once the state is gone, then the rest will depend of the people. Our odds are way more better if we dont have that big machine (the state) smashing us at every attempt to do something.

Most people dont buy marxism-leninism beccause of elitism, you will never be able to sell it to people beccause most people already know the story; we have to trust our lives by empowering a bunch of verry commited revolutionaries so they could give us an egalitarian society.

people dont buy that shit.

on the other hand, if you tell people they are gonna be their own boss, that they will be able to take decision together about what should be done rather than having to trust some verry commited individual, you gonna make a much much better impression.

people hate being controlled, they love freedom.

Dr Mindbender

10th January 2010, 18:59

I think communism have a great potential in america, but the people who are currently trying to sell it just dont do it properly.

From my knowledge a huuge deal of american are against statism. Ho what a coincidence, we are against statism too!

The rampant anti-communism that is crawling in the united state is enforced with the idea that communist love statism, that communists like governements.

americans love democracy. hoo what a coincidence! we love democracy too!

speaking as an outsider, the impression i get from tv and the media is that most americans are scared of democracy in the direct sense, they like oligarchy and plutocracy because they think it 'protects' them from having to get involved in 'big decisions'.

danyboy27

10th January 2010, 19:12

speaking as an outsider, the impression i get from tv and the media is that most americans are scared of democracy in the direct sense, they like oligarchy and plutocracy because they think it 'protects' them from having to get involved in 'big decisions'.

well, i am not an american, i am a canadian but i got a fews american friend and i goes on some gaming forum crowded by american.

That the only thing i could agree with. they dont like the state, stupid laws, etc etc.

From my understanding they just want to rule their little world the way they want to.

Dr Mindbender

10th January 2010, 19:23

well, i am not an american, i am a canadian but i got a fews american friend and i goes on some gaming forum crowded by american.

That the only thing i could agree with. they dont like the state, stupid laws, etc etc.

From my understanding they just want to rule their little world the way they want to.

Problem is average americans might not like the state, but that doesnt mean they also want rid of social classes.

I think america is one of those places where there are immovable political obstacles. Here in Northern Ireland, we have a similar one, the sovereignty issue. You could quite easilly get protestant and catholic workers to sit down with each other to agree on bread and butter issues like wages and cost of living, but when you bring up the question of british vs irish rule depending what sect youre speaking to, they just switch off.

Bud Struggle

10th January 2010, 20:15

Problem is average americans might not like the state, but that doesnt mean they also want rid of social classes.

I rather see it as Americans don't like the politicians and the government in general--but the vast amount of Americans love the country and the Constitution and the general way of life. Americans are a very patriotic people in a way that it would be difficult for Europeans to understand.

As far as social classes--I'd say 90% of Americans don't know they exist. (I'm not saying they don't exist--I'm just saying they aren't recognized by the vast majority of people.) For that matter I personally both when I was a Proletarian or when I got bumbed up to the Bourgeois (or maybe I'm petit Bourgeois) class never ever gave a thought to "class" untill I started reading RevLeft.

Dr Mindbender

10th January 2010, 22:26

As far as social classes--I'd say 90% of Americans don't know they exist. .

I'm not sure its even that. Americans probably know of social classes due to their McCarthyist indoctrination, but are ignorant as to what they actually mean. I'm not in a position to carry out an experiment, but i'd wager if you were to ask 100 random Americans ''would you like to live in a classless society'', at least half of them or more would probably respond with a negative retort against communism.

Havet

11th January 2010, 16:33

Bud Struggle

11th January 2010, 20:57

I'm not sure its even that. Americans probably know of social classes due to their McCarthyist indoctrination, but are ignorant as to what they actually mean. I'm not in a position to carry out an experiment, but i'd wager if you were to ask 100 random Americans ''would you like to live in a classless society'', at least half of them or more would probably respond with a negative retort against communism.

Indeed. That's why Deminto's comment up above makes so much sense. Most Americans hate "Communism" they don't hate sharing, equality, kindness, helping and freedom.

It's all in the packaging.

So you were, like, chatting with one of your workers but he didn't know you were his boss?

Not HIS boss--the boss of a service company doing business with his boss.

Havet

11th January 2010, 21:01

Not HIS boss--the boss of a service company doing business with his boss.

Ah. Well, still a lovely story.

Robert

12th January 2010, 03:26

leftist, libertarian, right wing, they all want to get rid of the fucking state.

No, dany. They may like to say they hate the state, but when you get into the details:

1. the elderly want their social security payments (enter the SSA);

2. labor wants a minimum wage (enter the DOL);

3. students want taxpayer subsidized state universities (enter the DOE);

4. the farmer wants crop subsidies (enter the FHA);

5. the nativists want border control (enter ICE);

6. the religious right wants censorship of the airwaves (enter the FCC);

7. environmentalists want pollution controls (enter the EPA)

8. manufacturers want tariffs (enter the ITC)

9. workers want safe workplaces (enter OSHA)

10. everybody wants Bin Laden (enter the CIA and DOD).

That's just a quick list. There are many, many more of these agencies (http://www.usa.gov/Agencies/Federal/All_Agencies/index.shtml), dozens of them, every one of them created in response to popular demand. And this is only at the federal level.

This is what the People want: a State. A bigger and bigger state, to take more and more care of them, from cradle to grave.

IcarusAngel

12th January 2010, 03:38

When people refer to "big government" they generally refer to government activitives that they themselves do not agree with.

So for Libertarians its minimum wage, environmental regulations, and so on, that's big government.

For leftists, it's war, imperialism, that's big government.

In reality, there is no dichotomy here is big govt, here is small govt. There could be few government laws and a completely tyrannnical state (like in 1984) but there could also be a government with many laws and many freedoms. Perhaps the laws specify all the rights that the citizens have, for example. Why is social welfare considered big government but not corporate welfare? Why is it also that taxes that are "coerced" from the citizenry is "big government" and "evil" but it's not big government when the government determines who can and cannot own property (which has always required a lot of goverment to enforce, such as in capitalism).

The largest corporate welfare projects come from "free-market" America. A small government monarchy is still a monarchy. A small government theocracy is still a theocracy, and so on. Technically, there were fewer government politicans in America in 1810 than there were in 2010. Conservatives claim this was a freer time, but was it freer for poor people with little property, was it freer for African Americans, women? Not really.

Basically, it's another false paradigm, usually used by rightists. What you want to measure is how many choices do people have? How much access do they have to their government. And, best of all, do they control their own resources?

If we use these more economic yardsticks, right philosophy comes crashing down. Too close to tyranny.

RGacky3

12th January 2010, 11:04

I rather see it as Americans don't like the politicians and the government in general--but the vast amount of Americans love the country and the Constitution and the general way of life. Americans are a very patriotic people in a way that it would be difficult for Europeans to understand.

As far as social classes--I'd say 90% of Americans don't know they exist. (I'm not saying they don't exist--I'm just saying they aren't recognized by the vast majority of people.) For that matter I personally both when I was a Proletarian or when I got bumbed up to the Bourgeois (or maybe I'm petit Bourgeois) class never ever gave a thought to "class" untill I started reading RevLeft.

First of all, Europeans are also extreamly patriotic people in a way that Americans probably could'nt understand.

As far as social classes I'd say you have no idea what your talking about, first of all, "Americans" is not only the white middle class, who may not be that aware of classes, but it also includes blacks, hispanics, immigrants, the poor whites, who sure as hell know classes exist. I don't know who your talking too, but Americans I know understand class very well, they understand corporatism, and the way big buisiness and the government works.

The idea that class is irrelivent in America is a myth and compleatly disconnected from reality, I would say its more of an issue than it is in industrialized Europe, consisdering the class system in America is more extreme, and that in AMerica the ruling class is way more powerful. But people know about class in the States, dispite what Bud or Hannity say :P.

I chatted a bit with the guy, exchanged names--I just said I worked for my company--he didn't have a clue who I was, I was just a worker like him. His name was James and he was here about six months from Haiti. After an hour or so he asked me: "Are you a Christian man? I said "Yes" and he said: "then we are brothers" and shook my hand. He then invited me to come with him at his dinner time.

At 8:30 he clocked out for dinner and we went to the back of the hotel where there were about 25 to 30 hotel workers: Blacks, Mexicans, Haitians, Whites, who knows who else standing around a grill with a fire going. We sang "Amazing Grace" and then something similar in Spanish and someone gave a quick talk about Jesus and everyone went off to eat their dinner.

So what? I don't understand what that has to with class? Its simply someone being hospitable to a fellow christian?

I don't think you understand what class conflict is, I would by all means eat dinner with a rich man, or become friends with him, and would definately be hospitable to someone, but thats not what we are talking about here is it?

Bud Struggle

12th January 2010, 12:56

So what? I don't understand what that has to with class? Its simply someone being hospitable to a fellow christian?

I don't think you understand what class conflict is, I would by all means eat dinner with a rich man, or become friends with him, and would definately be hospitable to someone, but thats not what we are talking about here is it?

You miss the point of the story--it's not about me being of some other class and getting invited--it's about how after 2000 years these workers find their solace and hope in Jesus.

I was saying that if Communists could get workers to look like them in the sam way--they'd be getting somewhere.

rednordman

12th January 2010, 15:39

I think the whole issue most americans have with the state, is more to do with the fact that despite having the monopoly over power, it also acts as a target for people to blame and vent their frustrations at. The same thing happens in the UK, and Skandinavia (from what i have seen in Norway).

In many ways, the state acts as a smoke screne for capitalism. That is because, it is there to protect capitalism, yet because it provides safetly barriers for it, people dont seem to understand this, and just blame any problem of 'buerocratic red-tape' etc.

Its almost as if people believe that if there wasnt these 'barriers' set by the state, than capitalism would work just fine and everyone would live in perfect harmony.

All I can suggest, is to get rid of it, and see how things are? In a capitalist world, we would soon see how unfair things really are. At least with concepts such as anarchism, there is generally a leftwing/socialist backbone to its ideals, and anarchists generally do care for their fellow human beings. But give it to capitalist libertarianism that I suppose a lot of americans dream of, I think it would end up more nearer hell on earth, than any other political ideal (with the only exception being hitlers nazi germany) ever experienced.

RGacky3

12th January 2010, 16:01

You miss the point of the story--it's not about me being of some other class and getting invited--it's about how after 2000 years these workers find their solace and hope in Jesus.

I was saying that if Communists could get workers to look like them in the sam way--they'd be getting somewhere.

Thats their religion, no one is talking about religion here ... Ones devotion to their religion has nothing to do with class, or class conflict or socio-economics or politics, I don't know what the point of that story is, other than people are religious. Communism is not a religion, and does not intend to be (except maybe maoists :P)

Belisarius

13th January 2010, 15:31

Thats their religion, no one is talking about religion here ... Ones devotion to their religion has nothing to do with class, or class conflict or socio-economics or politics, I don't know what the point of that story is, other than people are religious. Communism is not a religion, and does not intend to be (except maybe maoists :P)
i don't think he meant the religion part, because of course then it makes little sense, as you said. i think it's more about selfless passion and in this sense it doesn't matter whether it is christianity or communism, we all share a passion to change the world.