Why Affirmative Action is not the Answer, Why Universal Free Education is

[Commiechu]

Although the belief is that Affirmative Action will help those who are disadvantaged it in general helps those of minority backgrounds regardless of economic situation, while this is fine and dandy, we constantly hear of people talking about what they can do to get "affirmative action perks", often from people who really don't need them at all, we can definitely see a problem with a scenario when a poor young man who has worked hard all his life is turned down from school because he is not a person of minority descent, while at the same time a rich person of practically any descent (It is foolish to believe all rich people are white) can get his kid through school merely due to a perceived disadvantage that he has because of his "race",since it really is obvious that the child of a rich oil baron from Kabul or the Ambassador from Hong Kong is less able to get in to a school than a poor person who just happens to be white isn't it? It is obvious that there must be another solution, and this solution is of course to offer free and quality education at all levels for the entire life time of an individual, to allow a person to enroll in any of these programs regardless of any perceived factors which are so important to people in this bourgeois society, such as "Race", "Religion" and "Social Status", and to use these systems to make the world a better place for all.

[Communist]

Affirmative action is needed, it is necessary and your post, which is clearly reactionary, is or well could be construed as racist.
Please look at this again.

US imperialism's global strategy is to continue white male dominance, which came about because of genocide and oppression, not to mention exploitation. Without safeguards - none of which go nearly far enough - oppression will deepen. Tossing out the mild safeguards that are in place, equal rights wouldn't be as creepingly slow as they have been and would in fact reverse. What you presented is one of the most cherished of all reactionary fallacies, and one which has sadly been reinforced by quite a few courts.

[Commiechu]

You have very much mistaken my meaning comrade, I wish to remove Affirmative action because it fails in its task of protecting the working class and instead tends to leave many people of limited means high and dry, you seem to take this as meaning that I believe those of minority descent to have less right to education, I very much believe the opposite, but I also believe that those of limited economic means who are not of minority descent have the same right to education, this is why education should be open to everyone, that is to say "Socialized Education", not because Affirmative action protects minorities, but because it leaves many people without protection, so it must be replaced with something which will protect everyone.

[ls]

We should recognise that racial and identity based oppression exists at every level in society, we should also recognise that affirmative action does almost nothing to alleviate this - contrary to what the 'benevolent' bourgeois and their lackey media tells us.

We should fight for our own independent means to fight oppression, in the workplace this is best done by forming councils where we don't let racially selective hiring happen, as we should realise that affirmative action is simply ignored when it's convenient, I think it's time workers started looking for more control over hiring and firing even though this has been denied to workers for centuries and decades.

[Robocommie]

We should recognise that racial and identity based oppression exists at every level in society, we should also recognise that affirmative action does almost nothing to alleviate this - contrary to what the 'benevolent' bourgeois and their lackey media tells us.

We should fight for our own independent means to fight oppression, in the workplace this is best done by forming councils where we don't let racially selective hiring happen, as we should realise that affirmative action is simply ignored when it's convenient, I think it's time workers started looking for more control over hiring and firing even though this has been denied to workers for centuries and decades.

There's not necessarily anything that would guarantee worker's councils ignore racial prejudice when hiring and firing workers, as working class people can be bigoted and racist as well. Like you said, it's at every level of society.

Affirmative action is a flawed program, but it's got one strength in that it requires workplaces to hire a certain number of minority workers, with the assumption that a given percentage of applicants for a position will be minorities.

[Commiechu]

Which is why I support the WIL in its struggle for just that, we will fight to the end to help the people in their struggle and to try to help free them from their chains.. but as we know.. in the end the people themselves are the ones who must free themselves.

The Program of the WIL: What We Fight For
For the right to strike, union representation, and collective bargaining
Repeal all anti-union laws including Taft-Hartley. End compulsory arbitration and the victimization of trade unionists and those forming new unions. Unionize the unorganized.

For trade union democracy
All union officials to be regularly elected with the right of immediate recall by the membership. All officials to receive the average wage of a skilled worker, plus vetted expenses.

For a mass party of labor to power
The labor movement must break with the Democrats. Armed with class-independent, socialist policies that can truly answer the needs and aspirations of workers and youth, a genuine workers' party based on the unions would get a mass echo. For a fighting program against the attacks of big business and the bosses' political parties.

Full employment and housing
For a 30 hour workweek with no loss of pay. The right to a secure full-time job, full benefits, or a place in education. No to lay-offs. For union control over hiring and firing. Establish union-controlled job training and hiring halls in communities with high unemployment. Abolish temporary employment agencies. Voluntary retirement at age 55 with full benefits for all. No to the privatization of Social Security. Eradicate homelessness. Quality housing for all, with rent fixed at not more than 10 percent of wages. For a massive program of public works to create jobs and housing, and to rebuild our infrastructure, inner cities and the Gulf Coast.

A living wage for all
For a national minimum wage of at least two-thirds of the average wage with no exceptions. For a sliding scale of wages tied to inflation.

Free, quality health care for all
For a socialized national health care system. Abolish private health insurance and HMOs. Free science from the dead hand of corporate greed. Full access for all to the latest medical technology, treatments, and discoveries. Massively fund research and treatment for AIDS, cancer and other curable and preventable diseases. Nationalize the pharmaceuticals giants that squeeze their profits out of the health of working people.

Free, quality education for all
Fully fund our public schools, colleges and universities: no to vouchers and privatization. End corporate encroachment into the classroom. End tuition fees and loans: for living grants and life-long learning for all.

For the immediate and unconditional legalization of all undocumented immigrants Full rights and amnesty for immigrant workers and their families. End all racist immigration and asylum controls. For the right of residency and dual citizenship. For the right to speak one's own language. Access to Social Security with equal benefits for all. No to "guest worker" programs. For family reunification and an end to raids and deportations. No to militarization and repression on the border. For the unity of the working class – the labor movement must be at the forefront of the struggle to improve conditions for all workers.

Outlaw all forms of discrimination – equal rights for all
Equal pay for work of equal value. Invest in quality childcare, housing and domestic facilities for all. For full reproductive rights up to and including abortion. No to racist and anti-worker police, courts, and laws. End the phony war on drugs in the U.S. and internationally. Abolish the death penalty and release all political prisoners. Defend our civil liberties. No to attacks on our civil rights in the name of the "war on terror". Mobilize the labor movement to combat racism and discrimination: workers' unity is the way forward.

A socialized plan of production for agriculture and natural resources
Protect the environment and jobs. End the anarchy of the market in the resource industry. Nationalize the food distribution giants and agri-chemical companies that destroy farmers' livelihoods. For a voluntary socialized plan of production for farming that would protect farmers' jobs and security.

Action to protect the environment
Only public ownership of the land, major industries, oil, mining and logging companies, energy and transport, can form the basis of a genuine socialist approach to the environment. Free and efficient public transportation for all. Socialist planning would ensure democratic control of production, using all available information and technology. Environmental plans would be measured in generations, not fiscal quarters.

Nationalization of the commanding heights of the economy: the major banks and corporations
Break with the anarchy of the capitalist free market. Nationalize the Fortune 500. No compensation to the millionaires, only to those in genuine need. All nationalized enterprises to be run under democratic workers' control and management, and integrated in a socialist plan of production. For genuine freedom of expression through the nationalization and democratization of the media

Socialist Internationalism
Pull out of the WTO, NAFTA, and other bankers' deals that are the tools of imperialist exploitation. No to the World Bank and International Monetary Fund. No to the FTAA. No to the war on working people at home and abroad. Cut the military budget: no to militarism and imperialism in the Middle East and around the world. Withdraw all troops from Iraq and Afghanistan now. End the embargo on Cuba. Hands Off Latin America! Unite with Canadian and Latin American workers in a Socialist Federation of the Americas as part of a World Socialist Federation.

[GPDP]

Affirmative action is needed, it is necessary and your post, which is clearly reactionary, is or well could be construed as racist.
Please look at this again.

US imperialism's global strategy is to continue white male dominance, which came about because of genocide and oppression, not to mention exploitation. Without safeguards - none of which go nearly far enough - oppression will deepen. Tossing out the mild safeguards that are in place, equal rights wouldn't be as creepingly slow as they have been and would in fact reverse. What you presented is one of the most cherished of all reactionary fallacies, and one which has sadly been reinforced by quite a few courts.

Way to jump the gun. What the OP is proposing is not the complete removal of help toward racial minorities, but indeed the expansion of the policy of Affirmative Action toward all disadvantaged persons, regardless of race, gender, or sexuality. And I would agree.

To seek to replace the focus of AC on racial minorities with a focus on universal coverage of all of society's disadvantaged is not to diminish the problems of structural racism, I would argue. It would merely mean expanding the program to give help to all who need it. And it just so happens we have a convenient category upon which almost all who are disadvantaged fall under: the working class.

Expand Affirmative Action to help the working class as a whole, and you'll get all the benefits of AC as well as quelling much of the criticism.

[Commiechu]

Way to jump the gun. What the OP is proposing is not the complete removal of help toward racial minorities, but indeed the expansion of the policy of Affirmative Action toward all disadvantaged persons, regardless of race, gender, or sexuality. And I would agree.

To seek to replace the focus of AC on racial minorities with a focus on universal coverage of all of society's disadvantaged is not to diminish the problems of structural racism, I would argue. It would merely mean expanding the program to give help to all who need it. And it just so happens we have a convenient category upon which almost all who are disadvantaged fall under: the working class.

Expand Affirmative Action to help the working class as a whole, and you'll get all the benefits of AC as well as quelling much of the criticism.
That is much what I was arguing, except that I believe that the educational system also needs a complete reform to cause them to accept everyone and to shift the focus from profit to education, as we know the only true definition of Socialism is the abolition of exploitation of man by man, and what is more exploitative than forcing children to go to school to learn stereotyped information, at threat of putting their parents in prison, while in fact hardly teaching them a thing at all, except perhaps how to be a good servant to the ruling class?

[The Red Next Door]

Affirmative action is needed, it is necessary and your post, which is clearly reactionary, is or well could be construed as racist.
Please look at this again.

US imperialism's global strategy is to continue white male dominance, which came about because of genocide and oppression, not to mention exploitation. Without safeguards - none of which go nearly far enough - oppression will deepen. Tossing out the mild safeguards that are in place, equal rights wouldn't be as creepingly slow as they have been and would in fact reverse. What you presented is one of the most cherished of all reactionary fallacies, and one which has sadly been reinforced by quite a few courts. He is not being racist or reactionary.

[Robocommie]

Which is why I support the WIL in its struggle for just that, we will fight to the end to help the people in their struggle and to try to help free them from their chains.. but as we know.. in the end the people themselves are the ones who must free themselves.


Well I'd have to say that after a quick scan of the points you presented, your goals are the same as mine.

[Communist]

I understood what the OP was getting at, but saying undeserving minorities are taking advantage... That is the classic reactionary line, and I was pointing it out.
Affirmative action needs expanded definitely.

[The Red Next Door]

I agree with you but i feel like if people wasn't judging by race in the first place, we wouldn't have this. That what happen when you are racist. We should not judge one by race, only merits but the racists in charge of the universities did not do that so that why we have affirmative action.

[ls]

There's not necessarily anything that would guarantee worker's councils ignore racial prejudice when hiring and firing workers, as working class people can be bigoted and racist as well. Like you said, it's at every level of society.

Affirmative action is a flawed program, but it's got one strength in that it requires workplaces to hire a certain number of minority workers, with the assumption that a given percentage of applicants for a position will be minorities.

Workers that form these councils for their own interests would be significantly less likely to have backwards social prejudices imo, it's not impossible but then nothing is foolproof and we don't work with significant absolutes, we have to do the best we can. I don't think that it helps much to say that workers often are racist and prejudiced, as in practice we can see this has been overcome literally millions of times even at the height of reaction, in America for instance when the IWW smashed boundaries between 'non-american' immigrant labour and other labourers.

[Robocommie]

Workers that form these councils for their own interests would be significantly less likely to have backwards social prejudices imo, it's not impossible but then nothing is foolproof and we don't work with significant absolutes, we have to do the best we can. I don't think that it helps much to say that workers often are racist and prejudiced, as in practice we can see this has been overcome literally millions of times even at the height of reaction, in America for instance when the IWW smashed boundaries between 'non-american' immigrant labour and other labourers.

True, true. I think if these councils were formed tomorrow, they wouldn't work, but if it was done later after socialist consciousness had been improved and encouraged, it'd be more likely to succeed.

[ls]

True, true. I think if these councils were formed tomorrow, they wouldn't work, but if it was done later after socialist consciousness had been improved and encouraged, it'd be more likely to succeed.

But these councils wouldn't be formed tomorrow in mass, as it requires a fairly high level of 'socialist', or as I would say, class-consciousness anyway.

[Commiechu]

I understood what the OP was getting at, but saying undeserving minorities are taking advantage... That is the classic reactionary line, and I was pointing it out.
Affirmative action needs expanded definitely.

Far from saying that undeserving minorities are taking advantage of perks unfairly, I was saying that members of the bourgeoisie, some who are minorities could just as easily take advantage of the system as those who are in need of it, while many are left out in the cold because they are not minorities, the whole working class is exploited and thus is disadvantaged, so they all deserve these perks.

[Invincible Summer]

Besides the points that the OP mentioned, I see things like Affirmative Action to be like identity politics - it fragments the working class and pits them against each other. I can imagine some white, working-class man developing a racist attitude towards minorities because of programs like Affirmative Action (in the way it is carried out today), where they seem to be privileged more.

[Dimentio]

Affirmative action is needed, it is necessary and your post, which is clearly reactionary, is or well could be construed as racist.
Please look at this again.

US imperialism's global strategy is to continue white male dominance, which came about because of genocide and oppression, not to mention exploitation. Without safeguards - none of which go nearly far enough - oppression will deepen. Tossing out the mild safeguards that are in place, equal rights wouldn't be as creepingly slow as they have been and would in fact reverse. What you presented is one of the most cherished of all reactionary fallacies, and one which has sadly been reinforced by quite a few courts.

US imperialism and capitalism in general is rather eroding any official system of discrimination based on gender or ethnicity inherited from previous eras. It is not a strategy to continue "white male" dominance, but white males tend to benefit due to historical reasons.

Affirmative action is sympathetic, but could have a negative backlash against the minorities it is intended to help.

[kalu]

Affirmative action is meant to fight white privilege, at least from a critical race perspective (see cheryl harris' article "whiteness as property"). I do not think it can or should be submitted to the logic of "unmarked economics" and the alleged "universal working class". It is determinate intervention into the racial context of white supremacy in the united states.

[Lumpen Bourgeois]

Besides the points that the OP mentioned, I see things like Affirmative Action to be like identity politics - it fragments the working class and pits them against each other. I can imagine some white, working-class man developing a racist attitude towards minorities because of programs like Affirmative Action (in the way it is carried out today), where they seem to be privileged more.

Alright here's a scenario to ponder. Let's say those incredibly divisive affirmitive action laws were one day repealed because they angered some poor working class white folks. Though many employers were able to bypass and circumvent affirmitive action laws before, more will now be able to discriminate more often and with impunity. This will most likely lead to even higher black unemployment which will probably result in even higher poverty/crime rates within black neighbhorhoods. Alright, so what? At least race relations among the working class will improve because white workers would no longer have a legitimate reason to despise those once-so-privileged negroes. So, we'd be one step closer to a worker's revolution.

But, wait. Since, blacks would be even more likely to become vagrants, criminals, and welfare recipients due to higher unemployment and even more pervasive discrimination, this will probably lead more white folks(working class included of course) to believe that blacks are either a.) "culturally depraved" b.) "unintelligent" c.) "biologically prone to violence" or d.) "all of the above". This would surely lead to even more hostility towards blacks among even more white folks, thus leading to deterioration of race relations. So...

Well, at least the oppression of whites would be curtailed significantly.

[Commiechu]

Besides the points that the OP mentioned, I see things like Affirmative Action to be like identity politics - it fragments the working class and pits them against each other. I can imagine some white, working-class man developing a racist attitude towards minorities because of programs like Affirmative Action (in the way it is carried out today), where they seem to be privileged more.
Exactly, The idea that minorities are better treated coupled with the same belief regarding illegal immigrants is probably one of the largest contributing factors to the right-wing White Nationalist movements recent growth, which is ironic since it would be in the natural interests of these people to band together with their fellow oppressed workers and fight those who are actually taking their jobs, the bourgeoisie.
edit:
The Youtube video "People & Power - White Power USA - 6 Jan 10" from Al Jazeera "English" investigates in to the White Nationalist integration into the mainstream conservative movement extensively and talks about this subject. (I cannot link yet, so you would have to search for that title)



Alright here's a scenario to ponder. Let's say those incredibly divisive affirmitive action laws were one day repealed because they angered some poor working class white folks. Though many employers were able to bypass and circumvent affirmitive action laws before, more will now be able to discriminate more often and with impunity. This will most likely lead to even higher black unemployment which will probably result in even higher poverty/crime rates within black neighbhorhoods. Alright, so what? At least race relations among the working class will improve because white workers would no longer have a legitimate reason to despise those once-so-privileged negroes. So, we'd be one step closer to a worker's revolution.

But, wait. Since, blacks would be even more likely to become vagrants, criminals, and welfare recipients due to higher unemployment and even more pervasive discrimination, this will probably lead more white folks(working class included of course) to believe that blacks are either a.) "culturally depraved" b.) "unintelligent" c.) "biologically prone to violence" or d.) "all of the above". This would surely lead to even more hostility towards blacks among even more white folks, thus leading to deterioration of race relations. So...

Well, at least the oppression of whites would be curtailed significantly.
I have already answered those in full, if all people regardless of whether they were of an ethnic minority or not were given the right to free quality education and a job there would be no reason to continue with Affirmative Action.

[Lumpen Bourgeois]

Exactly, The idea that minorities are better treated coupled with the same belief regarding illegal immigrants is probably one of the largest contributing factors to the right-wing White Nationalist movements recent growth, which is ironic since it would be in the natural interests of these people to band together with their fellow oppressed workers and fight those who are actually taking their jobs, the bourgeoisie.

Sure, I'm not denying that affirmitive action leads some whites to believe that minorities are more privileged. However, I'm arguing that if there was no affirmitive action, in the context of today's society NOT in a socialist society, white hostilities towards blacks would probably heighten considerably for reasons mentioned in my previous post.


I have already answered those in full, if all people regardless of whether they were of an ethnic minority or not were given the right to free quality education and a job there would be no reason to continue with Affirmative Action.

I agree with this of course, but it doesn't address my argument.

[khad]

I have already answered those in full, if all people regardless of whether they were of an ethnic minority or not were given the right to free quality education and a job there would be no reason to continue with Affirmative Action.
You are arguing pie in the sky shit in a utopian socialist setting.

Do that shit now, and you'll see how quickly minorities will be marginalized through structural racism in capitalist culture and society.

Your arguments come dangerously close to blaming non-white people for the rise of white nationalism.

[Commiechu]

You are arguing pie in the sky shit in a utopian socialist setting.

Do that shit now, and you'll see how quickly minorities will be marginalized through structural racism in capitalist culture and society.


While I am a Scientific Socialist rather than Utopian, I do agree with you that these things are very unlikely under the structure of Capitalism, which is why almost nothing can be achieved under reformism, revolution is the only way.. That is not to say however that we should not every day strive for advancements and legislation which increase the standard of living of the common man, the program of the WIL for example is:

For the right to strike, union representation, and collective bargaining
Repeal all anti-union laws including Taft-Hartley. End compulsory arbitration and the victimization of trade unionists and those forming new unions. Unionize the unorganized.

For trade union democracy
All union officials to be regularly elected with the right of immediate recall by the membership. All officials to receive the average wage of a skilled worker, plus vetted expenses.

For a mass party of labor to power
The labor movement must break with the Democrats. Armed with class-independent, socialist policies that can truly answer the needs and aspirations of workers and youth, a genuine workers' party based on the unions would get a mass echo. For a fighting program against the attacks of big business and the bosses' political parties.

Full employment and housing
For a 30 hour workweek with no loss of pay. The right to a secure full-time job, full benefits, or a place in education. No to lay-offs. For union control over hiring and firing. Establish union-controlled job training and hiring halls in communities with high unemployment. Abolish temporary employment agencies. Voluntary retirement at age 55 with full benefits for all. No to the privatization of Social Security. Eradicate homelessness. Quality housing for all, with rent fixed at not more than 10 percent of wages. For a massive program of public works to create jobs and housing, and to rebuild our infrastructure, inner cities and the Gulf Coast.

A living wage for all
For a national minimum wage of at least two-thirds of the average wage with no exceptions. For a sliding scale of wages tied to inflation.

Free, quality health care for all
For a socialized national health care system. Abolish private health insurance and HMOs. Free science from the dead hand of corporate greed. Full access for all to the latest medical technology, treatments, and discoveries. Massively fund research and treatment for AIDS, cancer and other curable and preventable diseases. Nationalize the pharmaceuticals giants that squeeze their profits out of the health of working people.

Free, quality education for all
Fully fund our public schools, colleges and universities: no to vouchers and privatization. End corporate encroachment into the classroom. End tuition fees and loans: for living grants and life-long learning for all.

For the immediate and unconditional legalization of all undocumented immigrants Full rights and amnesty for immigrant workers and their families. End all racist immigration and asylum controls. For the right of residency and dual citizenship. For the right to speak one's own language. Access to Social Security with equal benefits for all. No to "guest worker" programs. For family reunification and an end to raids and deportations. No to militarization and repression on the border. For the unity of the working class – the labor movement must be at the forefront of the struggle to improve conditions for all workers.

Outlaw all forms of discrimination – equal rights for all
Equal pay for work of equal value. Invest in quality childcare, housing and domestic facilities for all. For full reproductive rights up to and including abortion. No to racist and anti-worker police, courts, and laws. End the phony war on drugs in the U.S. and internationally. Abolish the death penalty and release all political prisoners. Defend our civil liberties. No to attacks on our civil rights in the name of the "war on terror". Mobilize the labor movement to combat racism and discrimination: workers' unity is the way forward.

A socialized plan of production for agriculture and natural resources
Protect the environment and jobs. End the anarchy of the market in the resource industry. Nationalize the food distribution giants and agri-chemical companies that destroy farmers' livelihoods. For a voluntary socialized plan of production for farming that would protect farmers' jobs and security.

Action to protect the environment
Only public ownership of the land, major industries, oil, mining and logging companies, energy and transport, can form the basis of a genuine socialist approach to the environment. Free and efficient public transportation for all. Socialist planning would ensure democratic control of production, using all available information and technology. Environmental plans would be measured in generations, not fiscal quarters.

Nationalization of the commanding heights of the economy: the major banks and corporations
Break with the anarchy of the capitalist free market. Nationalize the Fortune 500. No compensation to the millionaires, only to those in genuine need. All nationalized enterprises to be run under democratic workers' control and management, and integrated in a socialist plan of production. For genuine freedom of expression through the nationalization and democratization of the media

Socialist Internationalism
Pull out of the WTO, NAFTA, and other bankers' deals that are the tools of imperialist exploitation. No to the World Bank and International Monetary Fund. No to the FTAA. No to the war on working people at home and abroad. Cut the military budget: no to militarism and imperialism in the Middle East and around the world. Withdraw all troops from Iraq and Afghanistan now. End the embargo on Cuba. Hands Off Latin America! Unite with Canadian and Latin American workers in a Socialist Federation of the Americas as part of a World Socialist Federation.



Your arguments come dangerously close to blaming non-white people for the rise of white nationalism.

I hold no such sentiment, but I do believe that the way right-wing propaganda is structured makes people very likely to blame negative economic conditions on non-white minorities, when in fact those to blame are the ones who are responsible for this propaganda, the Capitalists, Media Moguls, and Government officials who have a choke-hold over the hearts and mind of the people, while the market, and money, and power has a choke-hold over their hearts.

[José Gabriel Túpac Amaru]

Affirmative action is just a poor excuse at reperations, it also stops sections of the black community from becoming aware that their government is overtly racist

[blake 3:17]

Does anyone here actually have any experience with affirmative action?

The parallel I know is Pay Equity legislation in Ontario, which while limited, is a huge boost for working women and is a big step forward for equal working conditions.

I don't see why support for these types of equity measures are antithetical to improved universal access to good public education.

[革命者]

Xenophobia in the US is becoming more prominent because of the economy. Either absolute and relative wealth or lack of it causes xenophobia. So the US will see an increase in xenophobia beyond that of anytime before.

I think affirmitive action is very good. Look at your president. If people select people by skin colour and pick white people out of prejudice, then this should be counterbalanced. Same goes for schools with a lot of non-whites; they should counterbalance this in their admission policies.

Besides that, of course you need a universal access to equally good education. But even that won't happen before any revolution.