Machines and robots

[CELMX]

Many revolutionaries claim that there will always be a working class – that is, until the working class revolts, and creates a classless society. If the working class was replaced by machines, and robots, would there be a working class? If so, who? And who would the capitalists exploit if there are only machines? Surely, they can’t exploit inanimate objects.

[Winter]

lol, I was gonna say robot mechanists, but then I thought, "wait, they would make machines that would build machines!"

I'm not sure what would happen in this scenario. I'd like to see if anyone else has any theories on this topic. :)

[The Vegan Marxist]

Actually, if we were to eliminate the monetary system, then we'd be able to use robotic machines as the working class tool to eliminate long induced labor that was used against workers of the world by capitalist exploiters. The idea that work is a mandatory action is quite detrimental to communist ideology, for we are known as free-willing workers struggling for a better world. A lot of people, especially those that are agrarian-socialists, tend to believe that technology is used to exploit man by the elitist power, but this idea is misleading, for it's not technology that exploits man, nor the worker, but rather it is money.

What we have is not money, but rather technology that is capable of creating limitless beneficial ideas, & resources to create these ideas. Money plays into no part in the either the production or the distribution of said resources & products. Nor is money a logical reason to work. So many like to claim that money is used as an incentive for man to work, but if one wants to use incentives as it's proof of fact, then one has to also point out that money provides incentive to murder, robbery, fraud, etc.

Money puts limitation to what technology we use & how much we use of it. Money puts limitations to ideas & how we use it. And more importantly, money puts limitations to workers & how they live. If we were to eliminate the monetary-system, & rather partake in a resource-based communist society, then we'd not only bring workers-rights back to the people, but we'd also eliminate the very limitations that were brought upon workers in the first place.

When robotic machines come into use, & this is within a monetary-system, robots are not paid, but they continue to produce products through the use of resources because they can, but more importantly, they can produce more & at a much higher time rate. Though, if money was still the law of economics, & if machines were already taken over, then that would mean there'd be a mass unemployment within our midst. So, even though vasts amounts of products will remain in development, people would not be able to afford them because they'd be unemployed & not able to gain money for the use of purchasing any item. So resources would initially be wasted.

When robots become able to take over the boring labors that workers have been forced to take part of, then people would be able to actually do what they want to do, while still work, voluntarily that is, at a much less induced labor rate, & more than likely have fun with it since it would be based on the free-will of what is needed, or for what is necessary. Money is not a reason why people work, it's merely used as a reward to those that work. But, let's say that we'd want to start constructing a new roading infrastructure where traffic laws no longer would be needed. We'd first start designing a programmed traffic system to where cars are tracked through pre-destined mapping programs. Then, we'd program, not the cars, but the tracks themselves on the distance relation between individual cars. This would eliminate traffic accidents, & the pre-programmed roading system would eliminate the need for speeding. No need for seat belts, unless cars were designed to have automatic seat belts that is. So no laws would be needed. And since no money is around anymore, due to the ability of creating such a road system, people might wonder, then what would get these people to want to work if everything is free & there'd be no need to work? Well, like I said, people aren't looking for money, but rather rewardship, & so, wouldn't the idea of having a road system where traffic laws would be completely eliminated a good enough reward for the entire population to bring incentive to actually work for such a project? We have the technology to do this, so why don't we? Money.

Thanks to many studies brought forth, we can be comfortable to the idea of everything being free to distribute to anyone who wants/needs it. Studies that I'm talking about is the fact that, when items become available, free, or legal, then the consumption rate goes down, whereas the consumption becomes high if said items are scarce, not available, or illegal. I would have to thank the studies on marijuana consumption rate for bringing in these facts. A study was made where they found that in the Netherlands, where marijuana is legal, the consumption rate is far lower than the consumption rate in the U.S., where marijuana is illegal. Fact of the matter is that if available, & especially freely available, then there'd be no need to overstock on a product when one can come in get whatever product that is needed at any time s/he wants to.

But yeah, I could go on for a while about this idea, & if one wants, then I'll be happy to keep talking about it, but if you want to hear more on the idea, then you can go & read two articles that I had written about this idea, & even a conversational debate that I had talking about this with a friend of mine, that I so happen had saved:

Why The Monetary System Fails & Where I Stand Because of It (http://anarcho-communist.blogspot.com/2009/11/why-monetary-system-fails-where-i-stand.html)

Schooling: A Capitalist Indoctrination (http://anarcho-communist.blogspot.com/2009/11/schooling-capitalist-indoctrination.html)

A Conversational Debate On Why The Monetary System Must End! (http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=80976199&blogId=522076305)

Red Love & Salutes!

[CELMX]

wow! great answer, thank you! :)

[Gustav HK]

Only human labour can produce surplus value, machines can not.
Therefore there will be no profit, and with no profit - no reinvestments and no capitalism.

But capitalism will never reach that point, because not only the falling profit rate would prevent them, but also the fact, that when production is mechanized so much under capitalism, many workers become unemployed, which would lead to an explosive social condition in world society.

[Robocommie]

The thing about capitalism is that it does actually need to employ people, because without wages being paid out, there is no market to sell goods to, so there's no way to make money.

If you think about it in that light, capitalism is terribly cyclical.

[ArrowLance]

If robots were capable of creating value on their own, then they would essentially have to be sentient, capable of problem solving and self awareness. Otherwise they could not maintenance themselves or create new robots to fill out new tasks, or 'reprogram' themselves for other tasks. Otherwise, their value creating abilities would have to be maintenance by human labour, thereby refueling their abilities to create value.

And if that did come to happen, we could not, as communists, exploit their labour. It would be capitalism all over again with the old working class reigning over the new created working class.

[Guerrilla22]

soon robots will revolt and kill us all. It will eb just like Marx predicted except it will be robots breaking free from their human masters and creating a new utopian robot society free of humans.

[The Vegan Marxist]

soon robots will revolt and kill us all. It will eb just like Marx predicted except it will be robots breaking free from their human masters and creating a new utopian robot society free of humans.

scare tactic. I hope you realize that there's no need to create 'robots', but rather robotic machines that do specialized actions, which would help limit the amount of programming needing to be done for such a machine as well. We could create robots like the ones seen in the movie 'I Robot', but there'd be absolutely no need for such. So no, it'll be the humans that will remain in control, & the robots can be a necessary tool for the working class people.

[Black Sheep]

The Learning section always surprises me, since a large number of posts are about either such sci-fi topics, or excruciating trivial ones.
Pot in communism,pets,video games,now scenarios about a matrix style revolt of the proletarian cyborgs.

Jesus.

[CELMX]

The Learning section always surprises me, since a large number of posts are about either such sci-fi topics, or excruciating trivial ones.
Pot in communism,pets,video games,now scenarios about a matrix style revolt of the proletarian cyborgs.

Jesus.

Did you even look at the fucking original post?!

This is about the automation of labor (originally at least...until it kinda got off track :rolleyes:). That is very relevant to any society! And we have all the resources to make automation of labor possible (NOT science fiction), and I was just wondering why we don't have "robots" yet in our capitalist society. Not excruciatingly trivial.

please post either something relevant, or put it in chat

[ZeroNowhere]

scare tactic. I hope you realize that there's no need to create 'robots', but rather robotic machines that do specialized actions, which would help limit the amount of programming needing to be done for such a machine as well. We could create robots like the ones seen in the movie 'I Robot', but there'd be absolutely no need for such. So no, it'll be the humans that will remain in control, & the robots can be a necessary tool for the working class people.
I think they were attempting humour. But that may just be because I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Anyhow, as capitalism approached the situation you envision, the rate of profit would grow chronically low. This would lead to crises or stagnation (gone over by Marx in Capital Vol. 3), which would only be surmountable for a significant amount of time by destruction of capital values. Kind of like the current crisis, but probably worse.

The figures:

Rate of profit = surplus value / (constant capital + variable capital)
Surplus value = value added by living labour (L) - variable capital.
Variable capital = 0 (workers 'live on air')
Max. surplus value / constant capital = L / constant capital (C).
As less time is put in by workers as things are increasingly mechanized, C/L increases, and thus L/C decreases, along with the rate of profit.

[Revy]

Profit only exists if consumers have money to buy your products. Under capitalism you get money by working.

Therefore it is disadvantageous in the long run for the capitalists to replace human workers with robots. It's not good for keeping the resulting disorder from turning into socialist revolution.

What we are already seeing is robots marketed for domestic purposes. Just look at what the iRobot Corporation (http://irobotathome.com/) is doing. Ever heard of Roomba?

Of course, any socialists should support robotic technology. We don't need to act like Luddites on the question. The issue is, as with many things, the capitalist system.

[ckaihatsu]

Therefore it is disadvantageous in the long run for the capitalists to replace human workers with robots. It's not good for keeping the resulting disorder from turning into socialist revolution.




What we are already seeing is robots marketed for domestic purposes. [...] Ever heard of Roomba?


Ever hear of RedBox -- ?





The company's typical self-service vending kiosk combines an interactive touch screen and sign, a robotic disk array system[12] and web-linked electronic communications. Kiosks can hold more than 600 DVDs with 70-200 titles, updated weekly.


Maybe the socialist revolution will begin with people turning on, tuning in, and dropping out...!

(%^ D