Against the EDL and Islam4UK

[Holden Caulfield]

Anjem Choudary and Islam4UK, a front group for banned Al-Muhajiroun, have declared their intention to march through Wootton Bassett. Their aim is to "highlight the real casualties of this brutal Crusade" in Afghanistan.

In response, the English Defence League have declared their intentions to oppose the march "in defence of our British soldiers."

The need is clear for an opposition to both marches grounded in working-class unity, anti-fascism, and anti-capitalism. The radical left must offer a perspective against both the militant religionism of Islam4UK and the aggressive nationalism of the EDL.

Clearly, the idea that British soldiers are "merciless" participants in "genocide" is ridiculous. But so too is the idea that anybody can be "heroic" in an illegal war of aggression fought to maintain western hegemony over the Middle East. Soldiers are neither heroes nor villains but members of the working class who, like everyone else, must sell their labour to survive. That it was the armed wing of the state who employed them is not in itself enough reason to raise them on a pedestal or condemn them to hell.

Both Choudary and the EDL would divide up the population of Britain into those who only oppose war out of a demented religious fanatacism and those who are blindly loyal to the sentiment of "my country, right or wrong." The vast majority of people who fit into neither camp, and particularly for those who realise that the crimes of militarism and the bigotry of religious fundamentalism must be opposed with equal veracity, need to make their voice heard.

Once more then, I offer a call to arms. If we allow the streets to be dominated by reactionary movements, then it will be a major failure. When Islam4UK descend on Wooton Bassett, then our voice must drown out both Choudary and the EDL;

No Gods, No Masters - NO MULLAHS AND NO FASCISTS!!


http://truth-reason-liberty.blogspot.com (http://truth-reason-liberty.blogspot.com)

Also read this (http://truth-reason-liberty.blogspot.com) on the same thing (I couldnt be arsed cutting and pasting this article, its got pics and what not)

[Pogue]

This basically

[ls]

Soldiers are neither heroes nor villains but members of the working class who, like everyone else, must sell their labour to survive. That it was the armed wing of the state who employed them is not in itself enough reason to raise them on a pedestal or condemn them to hell.Sorry, but that just is not correct at all. The Trotskyist line on professional militaries tends to be quite consistent, you aren't following it, it's the correct line too. I'm not saying I endorse islam4uk's march at all, just saying that the exact opposite of that ie commemorating them as heroes is equally stupid.

In fairness, even though it's islam4uk doing it and they are clearly not a progressive group, the idea of the left doing something similar would actually be quite good, why couldn't that for instance be done by anarchists? It's fucking true that the media tells people not to give a shit about dead Iraqis, so why not parade empty coffins through the street ourselves, in memory of all those fallen workers in Iraq and Afghanistan?

[Ravachol]

Sorry, but that just is not correct at all. The Trotskyist line on professional militaries tends to be quite consistent, you aren't following it, it's the correct line too. I'm not saying I endorse islam4uk's march at all, just saying that the exact opposite of that ie commemorating them as heroes is equally stupid.

In fairness, even though it's islam4uk doing it and they are clearly not a progressive group, the idea of the left doing something similar would actually be quite good, why couldn't that for instance be done by anarchists? It's fucking true that the media tells people not to give a shit about dead Iraqis, so why not parade empty coffins through the street ourselves, in memory of all those fallen workers in Iraq and Afghanistan?

While I condemn celebrating them as heroes, I condemn protesting their funerals as well. First of all, do note a lot of soldiers actually join the Army since it's one of the few stable jobs which requires very little in terms of education. Also, pickiting funerals isn't going to contribute to the struggle AT ALL. It won't raise class conciousness, it won't win gains for the working class and it won't stop imperialism. If you're desperate about the latter, blockades of military operations would be more efficient.

[ls]

While I condemn celebrating them as heroes, I condemn protesting their funerals as well. First of all, do note a lot of soldiers actually join the Army since it's one of the few stable jobs which requires very little in terms of education. Also, pickiting funerals isn't going to contribute to the struggle AT ALL. It won't raise class conciousness, it won't win gains for the working class and it won't stop imperialism. If you're desperate about the latter, blockades of military operations would be more efficient.

If you've paid even a slight amount of attention, even a slight amount, you would notice that not even islam4uk are picketing funerals. :rolleyes: Also, I'm not as hard on soldiers as others are, I'm just following the very basic premise of professional militaries because let's be clear here, Wooten Bassett is an extremely nationalistic little town, people get their children to join the armed forces because they want them to be "patriots", it is quite simply a fact that there is no conscription in this country and I would say a large, a very large proportion of soldiers join because they want to.

[Ravachol]

If you've paid even a slight amount of attention, even a slight amount, you would notice that not even islam4uk are picketing funerals. :rolleyes:


Haha, my apologies, I must have misread what you intended. I just mentioned it wouldn't be a good idea to picket funerals, the same would go for any action surrounding funerals though.



Also, I'm not as hard on soldiers as others are, I'm just following the very basic premise of professional militaries because let's be clear here, Wooten Bassett is an extremely nationalistic little town, people get their children to join the armed forces because they want them to be "patriots", it is quite simply a fact that there is no conscription in this country and I would say a large, a very large proportion of soldiers join because they want to.

I'm not very knowledgable on the British case, but If it's comparable to the Netherlands I guess it's mainly out of free will. Still, the hordes of working-class people who signed up out of free will to die in the trenches of WWI (apart from the conscription, there were a lot of volunteers as well, especially in the beginning of the war) didn't "deserve to die" either. It's the nationalism and imperialism that ought to be fought and it's hold over the working class. Obviously, I won't mourn a soldier who gets shot by a member of the Iraqi or Afghan resistance but I won't be cheering either, especially considering the highly reactionary nature of some resistance groups in the region.

[ls]

Haha, my apologies, I must have misread what you intended. I just mentioned it wouldn't be a good idea to picket funerals, the same would go for any action surrounding funerals though.

There would be no picketing surrounding funerals either, as I said, Wooten Bassett is a very nationalistic little town, in many ways it symbolises British pro-soldier nationalism as a town. Parading through it is very symbolic, as many many people from the town have sent their sons to Iraq and Afghanistan and there are constant funerals there.

That is the point of marching through there, doing it while a funeral is on would definitely be stopped, same for beside a funeral. Even within this little issue, the prime minister has already told them not to do it and that it's a "disservice".

I don't know about you, but I can't stand this nationalist bollocks. If anarchists paraded through there with empty coffins, I would support it 110%, I don't give a shit what anyone else says.


I'm not very knowledgable on the British case, but If it's comparable to the Netherlands I guess it's mainly out of free will. Still, the hordes of working-class people who signed up out of free will to die in the trenches of WWI (apart from the conscription, there were a lot of volunteers as well, especially in the beginning of the war) didn't "deserve to die" either. It's the nationalism and imperialism that ought to be fought and it's hold over the working class. Obviously, I won't mourn a soldier who gets shot by a member of the Iraqi or Afghan resistance but I won't be cheering either, especially considering the highly reactionary nature of some resistance groups in the region.And in my opinion, it is exactly that, fighting nationalism to parade through the town. Unfortunately, a very reactionary group chose to do it. In all honesty, a lot of people think that troops are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan and that they should be out, they also believe a lot of innocent Afghanistani and Iraqis have died too.

Perhaps some kind of protest commemorating mostly those dead Iraqi and Afghanistani workers, plus a tiny section commemorating (from a completely anti-government viewpoint) some of the more well-known cases of working-class soldiers who had felt they had no choice but to join the army, might actually go down well. Let's face it though, no one is going to actually try that because the left is scared of trying new ideas, it's either fascists this or nationalism that.

[Pogue]

There would be no picketing surrounding funerals either, as I said, Wooten Bassett is a very nationalistic little town, in many ways it symbolises British pro-soldier nationalism as a town. Parading through it is very symbolic, as many many people from the town have sent their sons to Iraq and Afghanistan and there are constant funerals there.

That is the point of marching through there, doing it while a funeral is on would definitely be stopped, same for beside a funeral. Even within this little issue, the prime minister has already told them not to do it and that it's a "disservice".

I don't know about you, but I can't stand this nationalist bollocks. If anarchists paraded through there with empty coffins, I would support it 110%, I don't give a shit what anyone else says.



And in my opinion, it is exactly that, fighting nationalism to parade through the town. Unfortunately, a very reactionary group chose to do it. In all honesty, a lot of people think that troops are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan and that they should be out, they also believe a lot of innocent Afghanistani and Iraqis have died too.

Perhaps some kind of protest commemorating mostly those dead Iraqi and Afghanistani workers, plus a tiny section commemorating some of the more well-known cases of working-class soldiers who had felt they had no choice but to join the army, might actually go down well. Let's face it though, no one is going to actually try that because the left is scared of trying new ideas, it's either fascists this or nationalism that.

I don't see how insulting stuntism is a good way to promote anti-nationalist politics. I know your inclined towards 'pure' politics but it doesn't really help us. I think there are better ways to try and convince people of our ideas other than rubbing the fact their friends died in their faces.

[ls]

I edited the post a bit and I think it makes a difference, so re-read it. Also, you all seem to think that this is happening at a funeral or alongside one, but it isn't...

[Pogue]

I edited the post a bit and I think it makes a difference, so re-read it. Also, you all seem to think that this is happening at a funeral or alongside one, but it isn't...

I'm saying your idea about anarchists doing a demo in that town is a stupid one. Obviously I support intiatives clarifying what the wars about and whats happening.

[ls]

Yeah, but then again you seem to class soldiers as like any other worker, you also support joining the british army during WWII to fight the nazis, those things in combination..

[Pogue]

Yeah, but then again you seem to class soldiers as like any other worker, you also support joining the british army during WWII to fight the nazis, those things in combination..

Those things in combination what?

I don't know what your problem with me is lately, but if your going to try and get nasty, do it properly and quote what I said. I don't really expect you too though, because your not petty enough to make an argument out of this so I'm going to pretend I didn't really read that. I don't feel a need to defend what I said, and I don't feel a need to defned myself against utter rubbish.

[ls]

Those things in combination what?

I don't know what your problem with me is lately, but if your going to try and get nasty, do it properly and quote what I said. I don't really expect you too though, because your not petty enough to make an argument out of this so I'm going to pretend I didn't really read that. I don't feel a need to defend what I said, and I don't feel a need to defned myself against utter rubbish.

I've got nothing personal against you and I'm not even trying to get nasty. In fairness, you have stated before that would support joining the british army to fight in WWII openly on this forum, I remember because I did too at the time, unless you've changed your position on that which I've seen nothing to indicate you have. Perhaps you don't class soldiers as any other worker, idk, that was pure speculation on my part, but you aren't the only one if you do and it is an incorrect perspective.

I just think that basically, you do not challenge nationalism enough and consider yourself as somehow 'compatible' ideologically with nationalists, where you clearly are not, it's up to you what you support in the end of the day, but that is my perspective.

[Pogue]

I've got nothing personal against you and I'm not even trying to get nasty. In fairness, you have stated before that would support joining the british army to fight in WWII openly on this forum, I remember because I did too at the time, unless you've changed your position on that which I've seen nothing to indicate you have. Perhaps you don't class soldiers as any other worker, idk, that was pure speculation on my part, but you aren't the only one if you do and it is an incorrect perspective.

I just think that basically, you do not challenge nationalism enough and consider yourself as somehow 'compatible' ideologically with nationalists, where you clearly are not, it's up to you what you support in the end of the day, but that is my perspective.

Wait. You think I see myself as 'compatible' with nationalists and don't challenge them enough?? What the hell are you on about?

[ls]

Wait. You think I see myself as 'compatible' with nationalists and don't challenge them enough?? What the hell are you on about?

Then why do you think marching through wooten bassett is so terrible? It must clearly be to do with not upsetting nationalists, lots of legitimate anti-war marches have taken place in many neighbourhoods after all. Let's be real here; wooten bassett is an absolute symbol of troops in afghanistan and iraq, of imperialist slaughter and as such is watched closely by nationalists. It is like walking on "their turf" there.

[Pogue]

Then why do you think marching through wooten bassett is so terrible? It must clearly be to do with not upsetting nationalists, lots of legitimate anti-war marches have taken place in many neighbourhoods after all. Let's be real here; wooten bassett is an absolute symbol of troops in afghanistan and iraq, of imperialist slaughter and as such is watched closely by nationalists. It is like walking on "their turf" there.

I said I'm opposed to having a provocative anti-soldier march through there, like you suggested, plus targetting that town for a movement completely detached from the working class and families of soldiers is a fucking stupid idea which would be designed for offense and nothing else.

Now stop throwing around accusations. if you turned out on call outs in this city more you'd know where i stand when it comes to confronting nationalists, hell you know from our msn conversations what my stance, both personally and politically is towards nationalists. You also know you have nothing backing up your empty claims, you know the entire context of everything you've said. Rather than throwing around childish claims why don't you quote me like people usually do on this forum when they make stupid accusations, or retract what you said.

[h0m0revolutionary]

I said I'm opposed to having a provocative anti-soldier march through there..

So your annual StW march is fine to go through Wooten Bassett?

[ls]

I said I'm opposed to having a provocative anti-soldier march through there, like you suggested, plus targetting that town for a movement completely detached from the working class and families of soldiers is a fucking stupid idea which would be designed for offense and nothing else.

What movement is that? You already know I don't support the islam4uk one, I hope you aren't accusing me of supporting them.


Now stop throwing around accusations. if you turned out on call outs in this city more you'd know where i stand when it comes to confronting nationalists, hell you know from our msn conversations what my stance, both personally and politically is towards nationalists.

Yes, you're right, I do know that - which is why I find some of your positions contradictory to that, if you really want me to quote you, which I don't want to do and which I know you don't want to go on and on about in replies. In short, I'm not 'accusing' you of anything mate, I'm just saying my perspective which is that, it's a shame that you have some of the positions you do.

[Pogue]

What movement is that? You already know I don't support the islam4uk one, I hope you aren't accusing me of supporting them.



Yes, you're right, I do know that - which is why I find some of your positions contradictory to that, if you really want me to quote you, which I don't want to do and which I know you don't want to go on and on about in replies. In short, I'm not 'accusing' you of anything mate, I'm just saying my perspective which is that, it's a shame that you have some of the positions you do.

I'm saying if we held an anti-war march in the hotbed of pro-war territory it wouldn't go down well, the same way alot of studenty anti-racist marches in white working class areas have been counter-productive.

Again, what positions are you actually attacking? If this is a political discussion then we can have it, but quote me, because I have no fucking idea what your on about atm.

[Pogue]

So your annual StW march is fine to go through Wooten Bassett?

I don't understand what you mean?

[ls]

I'm saying if we held an anti-war march in the hotbed of pro-war territory it wouldn't go down well, the same way alot of studenty anti-racist marches in white working class areas have been counter-productive.

I would be interested to see examples of what you mean here to be honest.


Again, what positions are you actually attacking? If this is a political discussion then we can have it, but quote me, because I have no fucking idea what your on about atm.Don't worry, it's clearly a pointless discussion, I just think that it's pointless looking at every situation as some kind of opportunity that has to be exploited correctly. That's all really in a nutshell.

[ComradeMan]

Before I get accused of being a Zionist most of the stuff here comes from the site of Progressive British Muslims
http://www.pbm.org.uk/press/20091002islam4uk.htm

Let's take a look at this Islam4UK group that seems to be a new front organisation for the banned terrorist organisation Al-Muhajiroun.


The founder of Al-Muhajiroun, Omar Bakri Muhammad, is given a prominent platform on the Islam4UK website, as is the former head of Al-Muhajiroun in the UK Anjem Choudary. Both have spoken at events held by the organisation with Omar Bakri Muhammad addressing followers by video-link from Lebanon. Both men can also be contacted through the website. The aims of both groups are very similar; to implement Shari'ah law in the UK, to build fear within the Muslim community, to convert non-Muslims to Islam, and to unite all Muslims in Britain under the banner of extremism to achieve these goals. Whereas Al-Muhajiroun was more global in intent, Islam4UK focuses primarily in establishing its aims in the UK.
http://www.pbm.org.uk/press/20091002islam4uk.htm


Progressive British Muslims believe that Islam4UK is nothing but a front organisation set up to circumvent The Terrorism Act (2006) that prohibited Al-Muhajiroun as a terrorist group. A number of Al-Muhajiroun's supporters have gone on to become involved in suicide bombings, for instance the bombing of Mike's Place in Tel Aviv in 2003 and the attempted multiple bomb plot in 2007 that targeted a shopping centre in Kent, a nightclub in London and Britain’s domestic gas network.
http://www.pbm.org.uk/press/20091002islam4uk.htm

Some stuff from Islam4UK

The Islam4UK website contains plenty of examples of extremism:

They claim that joining the police force is apostasy since anyone who seeks to uphold man-made law is an enemy of Islam.

They relate homosexuality as a problem equivalent to rape, paedophilia and homicide.

They warn that Muslim children are not safe in the hands of non-Muslim teachers (using the divisive term Kufaar, or 'unbeliever') since citizenship, Shakespeare and learning Christmas carols is part of the education system in Britain.

There is an article entitled: “Land of the baby killers”. In response to the rape and murder of Hannah Foster they write; “The fallacy of freedom has failed society and furthermore made people victims of a corrupt man-made system, for which Islam is the only solution”.

The group has held lectures across the UK Midlands preaching Muslims to bring violent jihad to the streets of the UK.
Apparantly Islam4USA may be emerging too.

One of these lectures had the title "Kufr Laws to be Extinct".

*kufr is an Arabic word pejorative for an "infidel" it is the origin of the South African Afrikaans word "kaffer" which was/is a racist term equivalent to "savages" in South Africa and used in certain sections of the white community.