1st world workers oppress 3rd world workers?

[Bitter Ashes]

I've made this thread for the benefit of MarxistLenninistMaoist and in the intrests of trying to prevent an already necro'd thread going further wildly offtopic.

The comment to be discussed is below.


so you think forst world workers are exploited and that they dont gain off the misery of the third world.
no wonder all the MLs on MYSP are either banned or dont come on here, your full of sell out idiots who will never do anything but talk about revolution.
Looking at other threads, its funny how if anyone says anything about the first world being oppressive you all go off your nuts, like malte and his i love isreal mind bending hypocrisy

My personal opinion on this is that all workers worldwide are exploited and herded as livestock by capitalists. Yes, workers in Europe and North America do live off the blood of workers in the rest of the world. It is not by choice though, but through the imposed conditions of capitalism itself.

How many people here, after they've paid thier rent/mortgages and utility bills honestly can say that they have enough money left over to only buy fair trade food and clothing? I certainly can't and I work and don't have any kids to bring up! The prices are pushed on us by capitalism, which is a system that rewards exploitation with cheaper prices and punishes unionisation, good working conditions and democracy with higher prices that most workers cannot afford.

The best hope, in my opinion, for the third world to escape the sweat shops is for us to concentrate on our own problems here and liberate ourselves of capitalism. Not only will that mean that whatever the workers overseas produce will have the prices dropped so that they themselves can afford it, but also mean that we'd be able to offer support if it's needed.

Anything else anyone else would like to add?

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

yeah, death to the yanks...
haha only joking, but seriously though, if you are aware would you rather go hungry for a few days or go without choclate and pop as a matter of principle, or knowingly let some 6 year old girl be worked to death making it for you?

[Saorsa]

A janitor, factory worker, truck driver, McDonalds worker or whatever in the first world is not responsible for the actions of their ruling class, which exploits them and oppresses them at the same time as it exploits and oppresses workers and peasants abroad.

You do not have a Marxist-Leninist conception of class and imperialism. I'd suggest you read into it, or start a thread asking questions about it. People will be happy to answer.

[Winter]

yeah, death to the yanks...
haha only joking, but seriously though, if you are aware would you rather go hungry for a few days or go without choclate and pop as a matter of principle, or knowingly let some 6 year old girl be worked to death making it for you?

So now you want the workers of the first world to starve to death!? Man...

You are continuously pointing the blame on the wrong people.

[Bitter Ashes]

yeah, death to the yanks...
haha only joking, but seriously though, if you are aware would you rather go hungry for a few days or go without choclate and pop as a matter of principle, or knowingly let some 6 year old girl be worked to death making it for you?
I'm a cleaner. My wages don't even cover my rent, so everything else is made up from goverment benefits and whatever else I can do to scrape by. This isn't a case of bieng denied chocolate at all and I go hungry enough thank you very much. A few people have met me in person from these forums and would be quick to agree that I've certainly not been burning money on fashion. This is life for us who work. No food, living in a room, not even a flat, wearing clothes filled with holes and having balliffs storming through your home to announce that there's nothing worth taking. Welcome to capitalism.

In the United States right now I've heard that there's tent cities appearing. Once you're in something like that there's no way out. If you had a car, it would have been repossessed along with the house and you'll be too far from your job to continue working by walking. Applying for new jobs is impossible because you probably don't have a phone, or postal address and if you do, employers will judge you instantly as unreliable, or irresponsible.

There's millions in the USA without healthcare too. How do you earn a living when you're too sick to work in a world where not working means bieng denied food and water?

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

look i agree they are innocent and to a certain degree exploited, my point is, if your a 14 year old palestinian who sees amerikan excess and his own family are being killed and starved, would you see it the same way, you get where im coming from, im not arguing with your point of view, im mearly saying 9 11 and other attacks are out of the notion all of the first world support and want imperialism

[Winter]

You do not have a Marxist-Leninist conception of class and imperialism. I'd suggest you read into it, or start a thread asking questions about it. People will be happy to answer.

The problem with this guy is that he thinks he knows what he's talking about. I kind of felt bad at first but I must admit that I am losing my patience.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

aswell as the fact that after the secular groups like the PLO failed to liberate the people, the people reverted to islamic fundamentalism, in 1970, palestinian mosques had marxist slogans sprayed on them, women could even go out without wearing degrading clothing, now as a response to decades of attack they have used god as their liberator, which is indeed sad news, but understandable

[Bitter Ashes]

look i agree they are innocent and to a certain degree exploited, my point is, if your a 14 year old palestinian who sees amerikan excess and his own family are being killed and starved, would you see it the same way, you get where im coming from, im not arguing with your point of view, im mearly saying 9 11 and other attacks are out of the notion all of the first world support and want imperialism
Few of those Palestinians will have any idea how most people in North America, or Europe live. All they have to go by is 2nd hand accounts through the mediums of propaganda such as Hollywood and state media.

The reality is that all workers are exploited. Workers are killed in the first world all the time. Not just high-profile stuff like Ian Tomlinson, but also all the people who die at work, or are denied healthcare, or are killed on the roads by others forced to commute. Even the planet itself is bieng slowly killed by the exploitation of capitalism and we, the workers worldwide shall suffer for it.

We all have a bone to pick with the bourgeois. Either the workers in the 3rd world rise up like the Zapistas and oppose free trade there, or workers here in the 1st world rise up and kill it at its source. Either way, the workers are not responsible except for not revoluting already.

[FreeFocus]

Workers in the First World, while not directly and fully responsible for crimes against workers in the Third World, are not innocent. In the United States, Canada, and many European countries, large majorities or sizable minorities of the populations support the current occupations, future wars (e.g. against Iran, Yemen), etc. Just as in Israel, there has never been a war against Arabs that was not initially supported by a huge majority. Support only erodes once losses mount. For the US, see Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and virtually everything else. It's a bit better in Europe, given (slightly) higher class consciousness, which isn't necessarily at the surface but is embedded in the culture of the broader society.

In short, it's ridiculous to claim that First World workers are blameless saints when the majority supports occupations, wars, aggression, and oppressive foreign policies generally.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

WTF your an anarcho syndicalist
i didnt realise

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

Workers in the First World, while not directly and fully responsible for crimes against workers in the Third World, are not innocent. In the United States, Canada, and many European countries, large majorities or sizable minorities of the populations support the current occupations, future wars (e.g. against Iran, Yemen), etc. Just as in Israel, there has never been a war against Arabs that was not initially supported by a huge majority. Support only erodes once losses mount. For the US, see Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and virtually everything else. It's a bit better in Europe, given (slightly) higher class consciousness, which isn't necessarily at the surface but is embedded in the culture of the broader society.

In short, it's ridiculous to claim that First World workers are blameless saints when the majority supports occupations, wars, aggression, and oppressive foreign policies generally.

someone with some sense for once

[Winter]

In short, it's ridiculous to claim that First World workers are blameless saints when the majority supports occupations, wars, aggression, and oppressive foreign policies generally.

But does that justify the killing of first world workers who support these occupations?

Bourgeois propaganda via the media is the reason why these people hold these opinions. The indoctrination of public education has turned the first world mind into mush and has distorted reality away from the truth.

Instead of killing them, I say we try to convince them to see the err of their ways. Then, come the revolution, whatever side they decide to fight for will be their ultimate destiny.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

and yeah i agree, my reasonming was that the people who commit acts of terrorism dont.
jesus i explained this already lol:)

[Saorsa]

There are large backward elements of the working class that support occupations etc, true. But many of them can and will be won over. Those that can't will probably end up on the losing side and may pay the consequences for that in a revolution. But a plane flying into a building doesn't discriminate between people that support imperialism and people who don't.

Our role here in the first world is to spread Marxist ideas among our class, and I admit the opportunities to do it are pretty limited. But that doesn't mean we should stop trying, dismiss the proletariat in our own countrys and run around talking about ak47s.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

again i agree, if you had listened when i expressed that the views i mentioned are that of the victims of our nations imperialism and not me

[FreeFocus]

But does that justify the killing of first world workers who support these occupations?

Bourgeois propaganda via the media is the reason why these people hold these opinions. The indoctrination of public education has turned the first world mind into mush and has distorted reality away from the truth.

Instead of killing them, I say we try to convince them to see the err of their ways. Then, come the revolution, whatever side they decide to fight for will be their ultimate destiny.

I never suggested killing workers (civilians). That's terrorism. It's never justifiable to target innocents.

I do take issue with claiming it's all propaganda. Yes, propaganda plays a large role, but it doesn't account for everything. Basically, ideologies like American exceptionalism have a strong psychological effect that makes people relish in claiming superiority over other cultures and nations. Not everyone relishes in it, but it's a tacit assumption that underlies everything. Moreover, there are some material gains that people in the First World have enjoyed. Cheap gas, for one. Diamonds, money with purchasing power.

[chegitz guevara]

yeah, death to the yanks...
haha only joking,

Fuck you.

haha only joking.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

you kinda stole my joke, you fucking dick
haha joking..............

[chegitz guevara]

It wasn't a funny joke.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

yet you felt the need to steal it

[robbo203]

I've made this thread for the benefit of MarxistLenninistMaoist and in the intrests of trying to prevent an already necro'd thread going further wildly offtopic.

The comment to be discussed is below.



My personal opinion on this is that all workers worldwide are exploited and herded as livestock by capitalists. Yes, workers in Europe and North America do live off the blood of workers in the rest of the world. It is not by choice though, but through the imposed conditions of capitalism itself.
?

Hi Ranma,

Technically i dont think the notion that first world workers somehow "exploit" third world workers is correct or, indeed, can possibly be correct. Ive cited this evidence (below) before on another thread which demonstrates why

Imperialist investment, particularly in the global South, represents a tiny portion of global capitalist investment. Foreign direct investment makes up only 5% of total world investment - that is to say, 95% of total capitalist investment takes place within the boundaries of each industrialized country. Of that five percent of total global investment that is foreign direct investment, nearly three-quarters flow from one industrialized country - one part of the global North - to another. Thus only 1.25% of total world investment flows from the global North to the global South. It is not surprising that the global South accounts for only 20% of global manufacturing output, mostly in labor-intensive industries such as clothing, shoes, auto parts and simple electronics. ("The Labor Aristocracy Myth" , International Viewpoint Online magazine : IV381 - September 2006)

Even assuming Lenin's theory of the labour aristocracy was correct - and it has been utterly demolished on several counts - that western workers or a stratum of them were "bribed" by western capitalists, the discrepancies in living standards between western workers and third world workers cannot possibily be accounted for by first world exploitation of the third world workforce. The proportion of capital flows - a tiny 1.25% - is just far too small to account for this. There has to be other factors involved such as the timing of capitalist development in different parts of the world . Also of course it should be said that by far the biggest exploiters of third world workers are third world capitalists

[Luisrah]

look i agree they are innocent and to a certain degree exploited,

I stopped reading there.

Certain degree? You have to be joking

[ls]

Workers in the First World, while not directly and fully responsible for crimes against workers in the Third World, are not innocent. In the United States, Canada, and many European countries, large majorities or sizable minorities of the populations support the current occupations, future wars (e.g. against Iran, Yemen), etc.

It isn't "slightly better" in parts of Europe, in fact you could say it is certainly much worse in some parts and that large swathes of the population are outright Nazis. No really, you could say that large unified sections of the population are outright ultra-right-wing scum, I'm not saying the claim would entirely be without merit.

Historically, it was definitely much worse in some European countries in terms of how racist people were, it's silly to think otherwise. In fact, European countries around the 10s were more powerful and entirely racist compared to even the united states

However, you can blame first-world workers all you want, as a whole, for what even a majority of them do, but it seems pointless to me though as the very same workers could well and have done as historical precedent, support the revolutionary wave once it begins to take hold.


In short, it's ridiculous to claim that First World workers are blameless saints when the majority supports .. oppressive foreign policies generally.

By that logic, you could and probably should support third-world struggles exclusively and argue that first-world workers' economic demands, ie strikes are reactionary and are not to be supported.

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

Comrades let's remember that Karl Marx taught us that exploitation and oppression are imposed upon the workers not because of "first world workers" but because of the unjust system of capitalism. It's true that first world workers live a better life compared to third world proletarians but that doesn't make "first worlders" our enemies. The true cause of this conflict is capitalism.

[Winter]

Comrades let's remember that Karl Marx taught us that exploitation and oppression are imposed upon the workers not because of "first world workers" but because of the unjust system of capitalism. It's true that first world workers live a better life compared to third world proletarians but that doesn't make "first worlders" our enemies. The true cause of this conflict is capitalism.

Glad to see you're not one of those ape-shit crazy MIMites! ;)

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

Glad to see you're not one of those ape-shit crazy MIMites! ;)

:) Yep. It just comes to show you that some people are just dogmatic and revisionists to the heart's core. They claim to uphold Marx but I bet you Marx is getting mad in his grave b listening to these "third-worlders".

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

Workers in the First World, while not directly and fully responsible for crimes against workers in the Third World, are not innocent. In the United States, Canada, and many European countries, large majorities or sizable minorities of the populations support the current occupations, future wars (e.g. against Iran, Yemen), etc.

In short, it's ridiculous to claim that First World workers are blameless saints when the majority supports occupations, wars, aggression, and oppressive foreign policies generally.

I see this posted as if these attitudes are something totally confined to the first world all the time, but actually looking at public opinion reports you'll find that there are many examples of populations in the third world who have a positive, sometimes even more than actual Americans, view of what the US government is doing.