What Do You Guys Think of 9 11

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

9/11 – A Bad Move in the name of Anti-Imperialism

Middle Easterners and South Asians are correct to desire independence from global tyranny. The fact that they are thousands of years behind the civilized world is something that should be worked out on a technocratic level via populist revolution NOT via American intervention. The proletariat or bourgeois (it does not matter which) should fight for Technocratic revolution – that means removal of Sharia Law – but not America. The external enemy of imperialism must be defeated before the internal enemy of “religious book fundamentalism” is defeated. The change must come from the inside, not the outside. Now is the wrong time for revolution because it would only strengthen the position of imperialistic opportunists who would hijack the revolution and divert it to American interests. A temporary support of explicitly Islamic resistance against imperialism is logical for those who reject perfectionism.
If there is any confusion over whether or not I think Bin Laden’s move was a good one, I’ll clear it up by saying that it wasn’t. I sympathize with his impulse to get the invaders out of the Middle East, but randomly targeting civilians did not help his cause any more than John Wayne Gacy helped the cause of Construction Contracting by sodomizing random boys and then strangling them. The opportunist George Bush was able to achieve his goals largely because of 9/11 and its effect on public opinion. Bin Laden did no more to help his cause of anti-imperialism than Gary Ridgway helped the cause of fighting prostitution by strangling random prostitutes. The only thing Bin Laden did was take out his enemy Saddam Hussein (by accident), but he did nothing to weaken America. Even though America can’t win the war, it comes at the cost of Afghanistan infrastructure. And now world opinion is on America’s side in Afghanistan (not in Iraq).
There is no logical reason to think 9/11 was a good move, or that it increased support worldwide for the struggle against imperialism or improved the image of Islam. A Machiavellian analysis makes me conclude that 9/11 was a disaster and aided imperialism.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

It was a genuine terrorist act. No doubt about it.

Whether or not it was convenient for extremists like Bush and whether secretly a light switch on in his head regarding Iraq, Afghanistan, Saddam and the Taliban is a moot point.

The fact is you cannot seriously involve yourself in a logical discussion regarding an action which was totally outrageous and un-merited.

People do not accept groups like the RAF killing a couple of dozen of innocents in the name of Marxism-Leninism (albeit one with vastly inadequate politics). I don't see why the murder of several thousand innocents (Capitalists, most probably, but not active conspirators such as the CIA or so on) in the name of extremist Islamic 'anti-imperialism' should be anything other than condemned in the strongest possible way.

[Luisrah]

I think 9/11 was an inside job. Sincerely

They needed to get to Iraq. Saddam was escaping their Imperialist grasp by selling oil in different currencies.
9/11 happens, and the US goes to Iraq to hit Saddam.
When they get there, the first thing they do is put the oil trading currency back to only the dollar.

This is the biggest proof.

We can go further and examine the speculation and whatever (for example, those twin towers fell exactly as do the prepared demolitions done by engineers) There are lots of evidence.


It was a genuine terrorist act. No doubt about it.

Yes. But the terrorrists might not be the ones that everyone thinks they are.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

three thousand died actually, and when millions in the third world starve to death, Amerikans stuff their face and life fairly comfortably, even the working class, the people of the bastard nation of Amerika support the imperialist troops, huge numbers of them are racist, and they are totally unsympathetic to the third world peoples plight, that is not an innocent person.
Also the twin towers were a symbol of capitalist system, the people working their were directly contributing to the ongoing of capitalism.

[Luisrah]

Amerikans stuff their face and life fairly comfortably, even the working class, the people of the bastard

I'm not sure if living on fast food everyday is a comfortable life, specially when you get (or not) to 50 years old with cancer somewhere, or heart problems, diabetes and whatever else.


The funny thing about 9/11 is that it was the only major attack. There were no attacks attacks that weren't handy for the US to attack a country.
Now that it needs to send more troops to Afghanistan or anywhere, a guy pops up and tries to blow a plane, but fails.
There was no terrorist attack from which the US didn't say ''we are being attacked, we have to send more troops to (some country)''
Smells too fishy to me.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

better than starving to death after having all your family members massacred
If Amerikans are unhealthy and overweight, fucking go running

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

also carrots sweetcvorn oranges tomatos onions spinach bananas pepers garlic, dont cost as much as a big mac meal, they dont have to eat maccy Ds, im on minimum wage and i make all my food from scratch

["Red Scum"]

I'm not sure if living on fast food everyday is a comfortable life, specially when you get (or not) to 50 years old with cancer somewhere, or heart problems, diabetes and whatever else.

Its not as if they couldn't have eaten healthily if they'd wanted to. Makes it even worse if anything.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

MLM, you want to spark an armed insurrection of the workers in the US, yet you deride the majority of them (simply because their per capita income is that of a typical first world nation and not of a third world nation) as fat, lazy, racist types.:rolleyes:

Frankly, takinga logical look at the situation, whether America is run by 'bastard' imperialists or not, you cannot come to any other conclusion other than condemnation of such an attack. And from a more pragmatic and less principled standpoint, if you lot really want to support attacks against 'bastard' civilians, you probably shouldn't support ones that lead to the overthrow of wonderful 'anti-imperialist' likes such as Saddam. Wasn't the best PR exercise and didn't exactly result in great practical results, did it?

[Intelligitimate]

The 9/11 conspiracy theory is probably one of the most successful conspiracy theories in history. Polls indicate that the majority of people on the planet doubt the official version (though more people believe the official version than any other particular version). This is an interesting fact, because it shows clearly that the vast majority of people in the world accept an idea which essentially leads to, or points to the fact they have very anti-imperialist tendencies.

While I don't accept any of the 9/11 conspiracy nonsense, it's not like the Left should take a very hostile stance toward it. You just need to get people to stop seeing things in terms of conspiracies and start seeing them in terms of structural analysis. To quote Alexander Cockburn:



Five years after the attacks, 9/11 conspiracism has now penetrated deep into the American left. It is also widespread on the libertarian and populist right, but that is scarcely surprising, since the American populist right instinctively mistrusts government to a far greater degree than the left, and matches conspiracies to its demon of preference, whether the Internal Revenue Service, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, Black Helicopters or the Jews.
These days a dwindling number of leftists learn their political economy from Marx via the small, mostly Trotskyist groupuscules. Into the theoretical and strategic void has crept a diffuse, peripatic conspiracist view of the world that tends to locate ruling class devilry not in the crises of capital accumulation, or the falling rate of profit, or inter-imperial competition, but in locale (the Bohemian Grove, Bilderberg, Ditchley, Davos) or supposedly "rogue" agencies, with the CIA still at the head of the list. The 9/11 "conspiracy", or "inside job", is the Summa of all this foolishness.


I think Cockburn takes too hostile of an attitude toward all this nonsense. Conspiracy thinking didn't destroy the Left in America. It was already largely dead. This has just filled the void, and should be seen as potential for Leftists rather than as competition.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I'm not sure if living on fast food everyday is a comfortable life, specially when you get (or not) to 50 years old with cancer somewhere, or heart problems, diabetes and whatever else.And no healthcare to boot.

Considering that in the most wealthy of capitalist countries 50 million people were undernourished last year, 50 million people don't have any health coverage and inequity is worse than in Western Europe and Japan and the standard of living has declined for 30 years for US workers, we can jettison these outdated pseudo-Maoist ideas about western workers being universally 'bought-off'.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

we are getting off topic, any answers to the question comrades

[Luisrah]

Its not as if they couldn't have eaten healthily if they'd wanted to. Makes it even worse if anything.

Yeah. And if they worked hard they could get rich too.

It's all about the mentality. Eating fast food IS cheaper than eating the ideal nutritious food everyday. People like eating what tastes better for them, they eat a lot, so they are ''well fed''. Everyone is happy.
It doesn't change that easily.

People could stop smoking, drinking, and doing drugs too. But the virus has already spread, and it creates dependency. Capitalism shows the drug, teasing the consumers.
It isn't easy to stop bad habits, but if people had to make their own fast food, getting the meat and making the bread, making the cheese, or if they had to make their own cigars, alcoholic drinks and drugs, the consumption of these things will fall hugely.

[RED DAVE]

three thousand died actually, and when millions in the third world starve to death, Amerikans stuff their face and life fairly comfortably, even the working class, the people of the bastard nation of Amerika support the imperialist troops, huge numbers of them are racist, and they are totally unsympathetic to the third world peoples plight, that is not an innocent person.
Also the twin towers were a symbol of capitalist system, the people working their were directly contributing to the ongoing of capitalism.You need to take a political enema, Comrade. This kind of ultra-leftism is foolish, dangerous and ignorant.

By the way, I worked in the World Trade Center: 59th floor of the north tower. I wasn't scheduled to work that day.

RED DAVE

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

well id rather you had been killed than the children in iraq, but when the twin towers fell the people were up in arms, when the third world has b22 bombers killing and 24 million starving to death yearly, they do fuck all, no use crying over dead Amerikans when these people in the oppressed nations strike back.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

Also fast food is not cheaper than fruit veg and meat, unless you have to have the top brands, which yanks love so much

["Red Scum"]

Yeah. And if they worked hard they could get rich too.


NOT the same thing. Nobody forces them to eat like they do, but the rich sure as fuck hold the poor down.



It's all about the mentality. Eating fast food IS cheaper than eating the ideal nutritious food everyday. People like eating what tastes better for them, they eat a lot, so they are ''well fed''. Everyone is happy.
It doesn't change that easily.



Its actually not cheaper, its just quicker and more convenient. The only way you could possibly find eating fast food is cheaper would be if you have a "time is money" view of the world.

[Winter]

It was quite obvious that it was a planned demolition. It was just way too perfect.

[*Viva La Revolucion*]

The 9/11 attacks were wrong and not something the left should support; however, the American government was in part to blame. It worsened the anti-American sentiment in the Middle-East. The attacks have since been used as fuel for right-wing campaigns against minority groups and it has lead to a lot of ignorance and fear amongst the public in general. All in all, a VERY bad move in the name of anti-imperialism.

[RED DAVE]

You need to take a political enema, Comrade. This kind of ultra-leftism is foolish, dangerous and ignorant.

By the way, I worked in the World Trade Center: 59th floor of the north tower. I wasn't scheduled to work that day.
well id rather you had been killed than the children in iraq, but when the twin towers fell the people were up in arms, when the third world has b22 bombers killing and 24 million starving to death yearly, they do fuck all, no use crying over dead Amerikans when these people in the oppressed nations strike back.In all my years as a leftist, I don't think I have ever read such a systematically foolish statement.

RED DAVE

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

its true, just that because you arent in the thirdworld you defend the first world people, which is wrong

[Reuben]

Has someone put a link to revleft up on a mental health support forum?

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

LMAO, ouchh:rolleyes:

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

well id rather you had been killed than the children in iraq, but when the twin towers fell the people were up in arms, when the third world has b22 bombers killing and 24 million starving to death yearly, they do fuck all, no use crying over dead Amerikans when these people in the oppressed nations strike back.

Your attitude to human life is woefully inadequate.

It is such attitudes that drive people, even the workers, away from Socialism.

And, killing 3,000 people in America has no bearing on the lives of your ordinary third-worlder; it is not the sort of tactic that will emancipate anybody, as recent history has proven.

[Luisrah]

NOT the same thing. Nobody forces them to eat like they do, but the rich sure as fuck hold the poor down.

Its actually not cheaper, its just quicker and more convenient. The only way you could possibly find eating fast food is cheaper would be if you have a "time is money" view of the world.

Well, you get what I mean.

Nobody forces them, but everyone tells them to. Ever heard of advertising? And the parents that don't know much about the disadvantages of eating poorly? And the neighbor next door, that always eats that food, I want some!

No one phisically forces them, but they do psycologically force them for sure.

I am sure you don't lack intelligence. If the government doesn't invest in healthy food, if the unhealthy food gets advertisements everywhere, that's what people will eat.
If there was no capitalism in this situation, the people wouldn't eat that food.

Just like fashion and music. There are little people that dress completely different from the normal person. Now you say ''but they can dress what they want!''. Yes, of course. But it isn't that easy when everyone dresses like that, and all the cool people (actors, famous people) dress like that, and televesion TELLS you that THAT is how you look pretty, with THOSE clothes.

Get where I'm going?
I remember once while I was watching the news, they said that the sauce they use in pizzas was good to prevent cancer (or something like that).
The sauce they use in pizzas is tomato. The why didn't they say tomato. Why is it the pizza sauce?
THIS is how people are psycologically forced to eat that food.

[Tablo]

I do not believe the official 9/11 report, but I don't believe in any of the conspiracy theories going around since they all are a bit shaky.

[NoBordersNoNations]

9/11 was a by product of the mortal contradictions in bourgeois society: decadence.

[Winter]

well id rather you had been killed than the children in iraq, but when the twin towers fell the people were up in arms, when the third world has b22 bombers killing and 24 million starving to death yearly, they do fuck all, no use crying over dead Amerikans when these people in the oppressed nations strike back.



its true, just that because you arent in the thirdworld you defend the first world people, which is wrong

You should apologize for telling a fellow comrade something like this...

You sound like a MIMite. This whole Lin Biao philosophy of having third world nations attack first world citizens is absurd and un realistic.

Before turning third world countries into invading countries we have to promote the cause of the exploited living within these countries. Not by invading first world countries, but by organizing and over-throwing there own exploiting governments and imperialist influences in there own countries.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

im not saying i agree with it.
im saying if you lived in bagdhad and had seen the genocide, you would not consider the amerikans innocent, and for yanks to complain after the hideous history of invasions neo colonies and puppet regimes, they cant say that 3000 of their countymen is an atrocity, when they have a nuclear weapon dropped on them and 220,000 die then they can complain

[Luisrah]

im not saying i agree with it.
im saying if you lived in bagdhad and had seen the genocide, you would not consider the amerikans innocent, and for yanks to complain after the hideous history of invasions neo colonies and puppet regimes, they cant say that 3000 of their countymen is an atrocity, when they have a nuclear weapon dropped on them and 220,000 die then they can complain

That's what the government tells them. The government puts in the mind of the common man that those attacks justify sending more troops somewhere, that is justifies killing more people, and while this happens, the Empire grows larger or maintains it's stability

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

i know, my original question was what you thought of 9 11, we have gotten way off subject

[*Viva La Revolucion*]

im not saying i agree with it.
im saying if you lived in bagdhad and had seen the genocide, you would not consider the amerikans innocent, and for yanks to complain after the hideous history of invasions neo colonies and puppet regimes, they cant say that 3000 of their countymen is an atrocity, when they have a nuclear weapon dropped on them and 220,000 die then they can complain

I see your point, but the Americans were innocent. The government was far from innocent but the people who got killed didn't personally do anything wrong.

Something I did think though, was that there was such a huge response to 9/11 compared to the reaction when Hurricane Katrina hit. Victims of 9/11 were able to make huge claims for money, but the people of New Orleans hardly got anything from the government, at least not to the extent the relatives of 9/11 victims did.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

you see the wall they have built, i was watching jamie olivers show one night and even someone as unpolitical as Mr oliver was disgusted at the 6 foot wall they have built to keep the next one out:(:rolleyes:

[Jimmie Higgins]

Its actually not cheaper, its just quicker and more convenient. The only way you could possibly find eating fast food is cheaper would be if you have a "time is money" view of the world.
It's cheaper in the US. OJ costs nearly 5 dollars while kool-aid, sugar water or soda in the equivalent quantities is about a dollar ($1.25 for 2 liter soda... the same a can of soda from a vending machine) if not less. Anything that's sugar and corn syrup is cheaper than produce partially because corn (and therefore corn syrup) is highly subsidized.


Also fast food is not cheaper than fruit veg and meat, unless you have to have the top brands, which yanks love so muchUnlike places like the UK where people can go on their way home to the corner store, the supermarkets in the US are generally only in suburban areas and urban areas have little selection when it comes to good fresh food.

Just look at fast food profits since the recession began, it's convenience and cheapness that drive American workers there, not gluttony and wealth!

In regards to the OP, I do not believe it was an "inside job" or any of the other conspiracy theories. Is it really that hard for people to believe that after 50-60 years of fucking over the majority of the world, no terrorists would try and hit the US?!

Was it a good thing? Hells no! Temorarilly it convinced many US workers that US imperialism could be justified (this lasted about two or three years). It disoriented and scared the emerging new-new left of the anti-globalization movement. It disoriented the labor movement which had been looking more internationally and begining to engage in more social movements in the late 90s. It gave the US justification to become more aggressive and get away with things both domestically and internationally that it had wanted since the end of the cold war (and prevented from doing because of the legacy of the Vietnam War and the anti-imperialist sentiment that developed in the aftermath of the war).

[BOZG]

The 9/11 conspiracy theory is probably one of the most successful conspiracy theories in history. Polls indicate that the majority of people on the planet doubt the official version (though more people believe the official version than any other particular version). This is an interesting fact, because it shows clearly that the vast majority of people in the world accept an idea which essentially leads to, or points to the fact they have very anti-imperialist tendencies.

While I don't accept any of the 9/11 conspiracy nonsense, it's not like the Left should take a very hostile stance toward it. You just need to get people to stop seeing things in terms of conspiracies and start seeing them in terms of structural analysis.


+1

I made a similar point in a thread about Alex Jones a while back. The growth in conspiracy theories is a positive but misguided step forward. The fact that layers of people have become so alienated and distrustful towards their governments is a sign of change.

[KC]

Edit

[Die Rote Fahne]

It was a reactionary response at American imperialism.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Something I did think though, was that there was such a huge response to 9/11 compared to the reaction when Hurricane Katrina hit. Victims of 9/11 were able to make huge claims for money, but the people of New Orleans hardly got anything from the government, at least not to the extent the relatives of 9/11 victims did.

Well from a ground level, I think Katrina was the anti-9/11. First of all there was a large grassroots response - particularly because workers realized the governmnet was not interested in providing relief. There was a big outpouring of donations and sense of solidarity. Race and class were out in a way that's rarely seen. In fact, I think Katrina is probably the reason Obama was elected - the US ruling class needed to convince people that the government actually is concerned with out well-being.

One thing though is that I think people did draw different conclusions. 98% of black people (I just made that percentage up) and many activists and labor people saw immediately that racism and class were involved in this disaster more than any "natural" factors.

Liberals did not draw this conclusion though - many drew the conclusion that the government is just inept at doing things... they thought, the government bungles a war and bungles a recovery. I got so many emails from liberals about how we all need to get earthquake kits because the government won't be able to save us when the "big one" hits.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

liberals make me sick, they are so fucking blind when the government rapes them they think, oops the government tried to seduce me but messed it up and forced me down and came inside me.

[RED DAVE]

the government tried to seduce me but messed it up and forced me down and came inside me.That's why you need a political enema. :D

RED DAVE

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

Lmao

[FreeFocus]

It was a horrific act of terrorism. Civilians (for the most part - WTC, plane passengers) were targeted and murdered for a political purpose. It's an inexcusable act, but it is not a "senseless" act.

[leninpuncher]

It's certainly true that the tearful American reaction to 9/11 was disgusting, especially since most Americans wouldn't even be able to tell you that ten years earlier the US had invaded Panama and killed a similar, albeit poorer, collection of civilians. But considering the subsequent invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, which were totally predictable, the WTC attacks couldn't possibly have been justified. Even if the Twin Towers were full of CIA officials and lobbyists on the day.

A partial motive of the attack might have been to trigger a violent American response, and use the bitterness to recruit more members for Bin Laden's army.

[Axle]

A partial motive of the attack might have been to trigger a violent American response, and use the bitterness to recruit more members for Bin Laden's army.

Cynical, but completely in the realm of possiblity, I think.

[Saorsa]

liberals make me sick, they are so fucking blind when the government rapes them they think, oops the government tried to seduce me but messed it up and forced me down and came inside me.

Ugh, as I said in the other thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/inla-renounce-violence-t119569/index3.html) you've been posting similar crap in, please stop embarrasing Maoists everywhere by associating your awful 'politics' with us.

Seriously, making flippant analogies about rape like that is both totally not on and completely idiotic.

And this whole thread is a joke. Maoists don't uphold acts of Islamist terrorism targetting civilians, the Naxalites actually issued a statement (http://southasiarev.wordpress.com/2009/01/23/indian-maoists-analysis-of-attacks-on-mumbai/) condemning the terrorist attacks on Mumbai. Maoism is not like 'communism + TERRORISM WOOHOO' as you seem to misguidedly believe.

Please stop making Maoists everwhere sad.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

why do you care if i am or am not maoist you idiot
and i dont aprove of 9 11
you really have an axe to grind

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

but maoism dosent approve of imperialism either, so im more maoist in saying i understand why 9 11 happened than you are defending yankee imperialism

[Winter]

but maoism dosent approve of imperialism either, so im more maoist in saying i understand why 9 11 happened than you are defending yankee imperialism

Well, understanding imperialism and the consequences it causes doesn't make one "more Maoist". :laugh:

We all understand why 9/11 happened and by saying that we don't agree with the actions that the theocratic nuts took does not mean we are defending yankee imperialism.

You need to do more research before making claims like this. Seriously, keep asking good questions and read.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

i dont need to ask more questions, you need to accept that there is no such thing as an innocent person when that person benifits from imperialism and its own nations dominance.
If i got blown up by resisters in the third world i would be a legitimate target, i dont starve, i can have food a job without bullets or missiles coming for me, i live in relative comfort as a first world worker because the army rapes the middle east and all the other 3rd world nations

[Winter]

i dont need to ask more questions, you need to accept that there is no such thing as an innocent person when that person benifits from imperialism and its own nations dominance.
If i got blown up by resisters in the third world i would be a legitimate target, i dont starve, i can have food a job without bullets or missiles coming for me, i live in relative comfort as a first world worker because the army rapes the middle east and all the other 3rd world nations

It's the bourgeois government that commits imperialism, not the working people!

The working people do not deserve any violence against them from a citizen of an oppressed nation. Sure, the working people of the first world benefit, but they do so ignorantly.

I want to be able to provide for my family. I gotta do what I gotta do. I'm not going to shut down my life because I'm reaping the benefits from U.S. imperialism. You know what happens when you take that route? You become homeless!

But what I can do is to take up activism and try to get my fellow citizens educated on the subject of class struggle and imperialist acts.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

if they are shown the facts, but just plain dont care, then are they legitimate targets?

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

in your expert opinion:)

[Saorsa]

Sheesh, it get's worse.

Mate I have not defended imperialism ever since I became a revolutionary communist. I recognise the fact that 9/11 was caused by American imperialism fucking around overseas. But since I'm a revolutionary communist, my allegiance is to the working class of all countries, and as a result I don't celebrate when civilians, including a hell of a lot of working class civilians, get murdered by reactionary theocratic terrorists.

Oh and the reason I care is because people who don't know much about Maoism look at posts like the ones you make, and assume that's what Maoism is. That's a bit embarassing for people who do know what Marxism-Leninism-Maoism is about.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

most third world maoists agree MATE

[*Viva La Revolucion*]

i dont need to ask more questions, you need to accept that there is no such thing as an innocent person when that person benifits from imperialism and its own nations dominance.
If i got blown up by resisters in the third world i would be a legitimate target, i dont starve, i can have food a job without bullets or missiles coming for me, i live in relative comfort as a first world worker because the army rapes the middle east and all the other 3rd world nations

No, you wouldn't be a legitimate target. Not starving doesn't make you guilty of anything. It's safe to say that everyone on here lives in relative comfort with access to clean water, enough food, clothes, computers and other means of communication. Should we be targeted by third world countries? No. Who would actually move to a war torn country in the middle of a famine because their government is doing bad things? Surely it's better to try and bring about change from within the imperialist, capitalist nation rather than move away from it?

[Axle]

i dont need to ask more questions, you need to accept that there is no such thing as an innocent person when that person benifits from imperialism and its own nations dominance.
If i got blown up by resisters in the third world i would be a legitimate target, i dont starve, i can have food a job without bullets or missiles coming for me, i live in relative comfort as a first world worker because the army rapes the middle east and all the other 3rd world nations

Who is behind imperialism? What causes imperialism?

By your logic, all 300 million Americans are "guilty" because of imperialist actions of their government. Ok, then by your same logic, Iraq is just as guilty for invading Iran in 1980. Where does it end? Or are the last people in the long, long line of global imperialist oppression the only real "innoncent" ones?

[Winter]

if they are shown the facts, but just plain dont care, then are they legitimate targets?

The target is always the exploiting class. But, the third world must fight off the exploiting class in their own country.

Take China and their war against invading Japan for example. The CPC fought them and their influences over the KMT out of China. They did not proceed to launch an active invasion on Japan in which they would try to take out Japanese citizens.

Meanwhile, as for the bourgeois in the first world, it's up to citizens like us to inform the public and organize. We must organize against the imperialism our own country is committing as well as the exploitation of the working class.

[Saorsa]

most third world maoists agree MATE

No they don't, and if there's one thing few people on this forum can challenge me on it's knowledge of the political lines and revolutionary struggle of the Unified Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist), Communist Party of India (Maoist), Communist Party of the Philippines and other Maoist revolutionary organisations in the Third World.

You do not know what your talking about. Please stop pretending you do. As Comrade Mao Zedong said, 'no investigation, no right to speak'.

[MarxistLeninistMaoist]

third worldists, not communists of the third worl, you bell end

[Saorsa]

most third world maoists agree MATE ^ That's what you said mate. Not third-worldists, Third World Maoists. So I rattled off a pretty comprehensive list of the MLM groups currently leading mass revolutionary struggles in the Third World. You are wrong, and you need to accept that and investigate revolutionary communist theory more thoroughly to understand why.

[chegitz guevara]

To claim that American workers are exploiters, you have to show that they receive more value than they create. Until someone can demonstrate that claim, I think "Third Worldists" need to dial back the rhetoric.

[Sendo]

Threads like this are the reason I think people shouldn't be able to post new threads until after some time/post count/approval threshold. Some pissy little kid with access to a computer thinks he is more radical than everyone else by forsaking the norms of comprehensible writing or dialogue and shouting idiotic bits of ignorant hatred about Americans.

I love how an English kid can ***** about Yankee imperialism. Read up on some UK history or look at the UK today, which is the USA's little brother in all of its escapades.

[nenad krickovich]

Good job, Fascist States of America is deserved it and much more atacks deserved.

[Winter]

Good job, Fascist States of America is deserved it and much more atacks deserved.

What's up with all these enemies of the working class joining this forum!? And they are all labeled as Marxist-Leninist! QUIT GIVING ML'S A BAD NAME!

"OMG! The American workers deserve to die for the actions of there bourgeois government!!!"

Fuck this.

[Luisrah]

Good job, Fascist States of America is deserved it and much more atacks deserved.

I hope you are kidding.

It wasn't the ''fascist states of american'' that lost in that incident, it was innocent people.
When an attack like that happens, it's always the common people that get killed.
Not to mention that it caused a reaction by the US government that sent troops (again, it wasn't the guys in suits and ties that attacked Iraq, it was common people) to attack Iraq. The result? More people senselessly killed.

So no, the ''fascist states of america'' don't deserve it, not in this case.

Edit: I know Winter right? We've got killers in this site or what? What the fuck is this?

[The Red Next Door]

well id rather you had been killed than the children in iraq, but when the twin towers fell the people were up in arms, when the third world has b22 bombers killing and 24 million starving to death yearly, they do fuck all, no use crying over dead Amerikans when these people in the oppressed nations strike back. You are a fucking asshole for telling him that and these fuckers are no better than our government in my opinion osama bin laden and george bush are the same. people killing innocents for their game. Bin laden use people in the third world who were suffering from poverty and the ruling class in their country to kill others and themselves for his silly game.

[The Red Next Door]

Have it ever come to your mind that just like red dave those people could of been our fellow comrades being killed? Osama Bin Laden is not someone the left should be supporting because he is a fascist and a member of the ruling wealthy elite, nobody deserve what had happen to them on that day. This guy nothing and i say nothing but a wealthy class religious nut case who use misguided oppress people to carry out his sick plans for theocratic rule in the world along with the Christian extremists and the zionists. Osama hates communists so i don't see why you would agree with him and this guy is an imperialist in way because he want to force his world views on the world just like the fundamentalist and the Zionist.

[The Red Next Door]

Has someone put a link to revleft up on a mental health support forum?
Yeah really THIS GUY NEEDS HELP AND HE NEED IT NOW

[Tommy1990]

three thousand died actually, and when millions in the third world starve to death, Amerikans stuff their face and life fairly comfortably, even the working class, the people of the bastard nation of Amerika support the imperialist troops, huge numbers of them are racist, and they are totally unsympathetic to the third world peoples plight, that is not an innocent person.
Also the twin towers were a symbol of capitalist system, the people working their were directly contributing to the ongoing of capitalism.

How can you be so narrow-minded? You can't say that all Americans live comfortably. America has a huge percentage of it's population living in abject poverty, and there are plenty of working class American families who struggle to make ends meet. Not all people in America support the troops, and I also think it's unfair to pin the imperialist nature of the war on the troops themselves. It is the government and military bosses who are to blame for this. A lot of troops disagree with the war and would rather not fight in it, but are too scared to refuse due to the risk of being court-martialled and imprisoned. It may be that huge numbers of them are racist, but I'm sure huge numbers are not racist aswell. Don't blame the troops for the bosses' disgusting policies.

Finally, I don't know how you sleep at night if you honestly believe that the 3000 deaths on 9/11 were justified because the people working in the twin towers were 'contributing to the capitalist system'. I am an anti-capitalist, but for fucks sake, people need jobs! You can't blame them for working there! I've worked in administration for a private healthcare company. I fucking hate the very idea of private healthcare, it makes me sick to my stomach, but it was the only job I could get, and it was a choice between that or starvation. Stop blaming the workers for the bosses' capitalist agenda, otherwise you cannot claim to be a socialist at all.*

*Mind you, with all due respect, I struggle to see how any self-proclaimed Maoist can call themselves a 'socialist'.

[Muzk]

I watched a pro-9/11 was an inside job reportage once, I still remember how they said the person who was responsible for the airplane (some beaurocrat) called them several times without a response, yet, obviously, this guy (or whoever) didn't do anything about it.

Anyways, why would they throw plains at the twin towers when there could be bourgeoise in there? What if there's really a conspiracy of super-bourgeoise? :D

[Tommy1990]

they cant say that 3000 of their countymen is an atrocity, when they have a nuclear weapon dropped on them and 220,000 die then they can complain

In my personal opinion, one person who is killed in the name of imperialism, terrorism or religious fundamentalism is an atrocity.

[The Red Next Door]

good job, fascist states of america is deserved it and much more atacks deserved. oh shut the fuck up. You fucking idiot.

[Tommy1990]

Good job, Fascist States of America is deserved it and much more atacks deserved.

Can someone ban this idiot?

[ls]

A lot of bourgeois businessmen died in the towers, then again so did a lot of low-level workers, workers in the nearby areas such as firefighters also perished and there are long-term severe health effects for many workers in NY thanks to the mass of dust produced. Anyone who says that workers 'deserved it' is clearly deluded and not a revolutionary, I can understand people not feeling much for the bourgeois businessmen who died in the towers however.

[ComradeMan]

A lot of bourgeois businessmen died in the towers, then again so did a lot of low-level workers, workers in the nearby areas such as firefighters also perished and there are long-term severe health effects for many workers in NY thanks to the mass of dust produced. Anyone who says that workers 'deserved it' is clearly deluded and not a revolutionary, I can understand people not feeling much for the bourgeois businessmen who died in the towers however.


I love the way you use bourgeois terminology, "low level workers" ha ha ha. As for your promoting the death of people you don't like... how very reactionary of you. Seeing as the group most likely responsible for this attack was led by Osama bin Laden, the son of a wealthy capitalist with ties to the Saudi Royal Family, furthermore the fact that this group's leader appears to believe 'that the restoration of Sharia law will set things right in the Muslim world, and that all other ideologies—"pan-Arabism, socialism, communism, democracy"—must be opposed' Messages, 2005, p. 218. "Resist the New Rome, audiotape delivered to al-Jazeera and broadcast by it on 2004-01-04. -
... leaves me wondering what on earth anyone would support this group and its leader's actions whatever they were and whoever they were against.

[Muzk]

Why do you hate the muslims so much?


that this group's leader appears to believe
stop making things up


Seeing as the group most likely responsible for this attack was led by Osama bin Laden
stop making things up


.. leaves me wondering what on earth anyone would support this group and its leader's actions whatever they were and whoever they were against.
stop making things up

[Revy]

9/11 was a horrible event. But right now I think the real tragedy occurring is that so many people use the event in order to justify imperialism, especially when it comes to Afghanistan.

[ls]

"ha ha ha" indeed, it's not exactly surprising that the man who thinks "western values" are worth defending over "islamic" ones is coming to these conclusions that I support Osama and the murder of low-level workers, he probably thinks I'm a Muslim too. :rolleyes::cool:

[LeninistKing]

9-11 was done by Israeli Mossad Agents and by CIA, as a pretext to get the american slaves to support the War on Terror (War on behalf of Israhell, and war for geopolitical imperialist purposes and for oil)

How 9/11 was done








34 Votes

http://pixel.quantserve.com/pixel/p-ab3gTb8xb3dLg.gif



http://farm1.static.flickr.com/186/379501295_7d57fdc854.jpg?v=0
Thanks to how911wasdone.blogspot.com (http://how911wasdone.blogspot.com/) for providing this research. For additional notes see the accompanying blog 911notes.blogspot.com (http://911notes.blogspot.com/).
Prologue

http://pakalert.wordpress.com/how-911-was-done/

Read the following two screens of text to learn what happened at 9/11.
9/11 was a master plot, concocted by a handfull of Israelis and dual passport Americans and carried out by the resources of the Mossad.
Larry Silverstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Silverstein) leases a nearly worthless dinosaur WTC building complex (worthless due to the asbestos (http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/asbestos.html)the buildings were stuffed with and needed to be cleaned up, the cost of which may have rivaled the value of the buildings themselves) weeks before 9/11, makes sure it is over insured against terrorist acts and hires an Israeli security firm. From that moment on the coast is clear to let a team of demolition experts from the Israeli army led by Peer Segalovitz into the WTC buildings. These charges plus detonators had been prepared at the premises of the Urban Moving Systems company (http://www.antiwar.com/justin/pf/p-j031302.html), a Mossad front. During the weeks before 9/11 these prepared charges were loaded into vans, driven into the basements of WTC Twin Towers next to the elevator shaft, unloaded into the elevator, and lifted onto the roof of the elevator through the opening in the elevator ceiling. Next the elevator moved from floor to floor (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/850831/inside_the_world_trade_center_elevator_on_august_2 001/) while charges where being attached to the columns as displayed in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J8ojEWlkrs) from 0:22 onwards. The detonators of these charges were radiographic controlled and finally detonated from WTC7 on the day of 9/11.
Fast backward, Hamburg 54 Marienstrasse (http://maps.google.nl/maps?f=q&hl=nl&geocode=&q=Hamburg+54+Marienstrasse&sll=52.469397,5.509644&sspn=2.723903,9.887695&ie=UTF8&ll=53.466796,9.977646&spn=0.04159,0.154495&z=13), july 2000, 22:40. Mohamed Atta, Al Shehhi and Jarrah (who were later blamed of being the pilots of flight 11, 175 and 93 respectively), who share the apartment hear the ringing of the door bell. Jarrah opens the door, 5 masked men make their way into the apartment with drawn pistols. The 3 Arabs are forced to lay on the ground. Their passports are confiscated, next the 3 men are made unconscious with some liquid and strangled to death afterwards. The bodies are carried out of the apartment into a van and driven off towards a desolate spot at the boarding of the Elbe river outside Hamburg, 1 kilometer north of Borstel (http://maps.google.nl/maps?f=q&hl=nl&geocode=&q=Hamburg+54+Marienstrasse&sll=52.469397,5.509644&sspn=2.723903,9.887695&ie=UTF8&ll=53.547346,9.692516&spn=0.041512,0.154495&t=h&z=13) and disposed of into the river with a bag filled with stones tied to their feet. The 3 passports are now in the possession of the agents of the Mossad, who carried out the raid on the apartment and 3 Arabs have vanished without anybody knowing that they are dead. Not long after the raid the 3 passports are given to 3 Israeli agents who were selected on having some resemblance with the 3 Arabs just killed. They make for America soon afterwards in the summer of 2000 and start laying a trail at flight schools, posing with the stolen identities from the 3 Arabs killed.
Years earlier the israeli Michael Goff (http://www.bollyn.info/home/images/stories/Michael-S-Goff_tiny.JPG) working for PTech (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptech), an Arab owned software company that develops key enterprise software for many government institutions like NORAD and FAA, using his secure channel with another israeli Amit Yoran (http://www.bollyn.info/home/images/stories/Amit_Yoran1.JPG), somehow manages to give Israeli army computer programmers access to this critical computer code. It was due to this manipulation that the hijackings on 9/11 remained unnoticed by the flight controller of NORAD. Once this was in place the planes could be taken over by remote control and flown into the World Trade Center.
The hijacking of airliners by remote control had been tested as a dress rehearsal for 9/11 on the Egypt Air flight 990 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990) that crashed into the Atlantic on October 31, 1999.
Now everything was in place to commit the crime of the century. On the day of 9/11 the Israeli stand-ins for the ‘Arab hijackers’ showed up at the predestined departure airports to make sure they were captured on surveillance camera’s. The crucial point here is that the security at both the departure airports was in hands of an Israeli firm Huntleigh-USA, a subsidiary of the Dutch based but Israeli owned ICTS (http://nt7413.vs.netbenefit.co.uk/) led by a fellow named Menahem Atzmon. And this is crucial: Atzmon used to be a colleague of Olmert in 1998 (http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/302). So there you have the link between the 9/11 operative level (an airport security firm) and the highest level of Israeli politics. What happened on the morning of 9/11 was that after the Israeli stand-ins were captured on camera, they left the airport via a side entrance and the show could begin. Minutes after the planes became air born somebody somehow was able to send a signal to the planes, causing the control panels to be disabled and the flight destination altered. What happened was that an anti-hijack system was activated (code word ‘home run’) and the regular pilot was put out of control. This pilot will probably have tried frantically to regain control of his aircraft. It is not very likely he will have told his passengers about the new situation since that would only cause panic. The passengers probably suspected nothing and hence had no reason to make any phone calls to their relatives (which were not possible anyway (http://www.physics911.net/projectachilles)). And while the 9/11 passengers unsuspecting travel towards their immanent deaths, on the ground from a war room Israeli agents carry out phone calls to relatives of the passengers that were still in the air, using voice morphing technology and caller-ID spoofing (http://www.brickhousesecurity.com/spoofcard-cellphonecallrecorder-voicechanger.html) and thus planted the Arabs-did-it-deception in the public consciousness. The sound samples necessary to carry out the fake telephone calls had been obtained via the israeli infiltration of American telephone networks (http://www.antiwar.com/orig/ketcham.php?articleid=13506) by Israeli firms like Amdocs and Verint. By the time that the passengers were puzzled as they discerned the New York sky line it was already too late.
Meanwhile on the other side of the Hudson river the members of the Israeli team that planted the demolition charges were waiting for things to happen. And while the rest of New York experienced in horror the events that were unfolding that day, the demolition experts were celebrating and high-fiving. The plot had worked out magnificently.
*** Please save this page to your local hard drive ***

This page is the verbal expression of an adaptive learning process. Please come back regularly.
Core Argument

Ok, I admit. Some elements in this story are speculative. I do not know for instance if Atta was killed in Germany or in America. But the story is an coherent educated speculation. It is an attempt to reconstruct the events of 9/11. Myriads of web sites exist that expose the inconsistencies in the official story, that obviously is a fraud. This story offers an integral explanation of what could have happened and in all likelihood more or less did happen at 9/11 as there can be hardly any doubt about who was behind 9/11 if one rejects the official story. Some elements remain vague, like what happened exactly to WTC7, flight77, flight93 or Mohamed Atta. But these questions are of academic interest only. It’s clear who was behind 9/11 and what happened in detail with WTC-1/2 and the planes. That is enough. Here’s where most people got killed. The rest of the plot can be uncovered by a tribunal.
In order to prevent that you get swallowed up by yet another 10 meters of screen text here is the core of the argument. The story is based on 2 broadly accepted postulates:
1) WTC was brought down by controlled demolition
2) The ‘dancing Israelis’ on the morning of 9/11 had foreknowledge of things to come
These 2 premises are enough to put the Official Conspiracy Theory (Arabs did it) out of business.
Premise 2 leads to the preliminary conclusion that the Israelis had foreknowledge because they organized the attacks themselves. Since Israelis are not known to commit suicide attacks we have to assume that the airplanes that crashed into their destinations were remote controlled. If one accepts this as a working hypothesis than there is a lot, I mean really a lot, of material that supports this Israeli Conspiracy Theory that replaces the official Arab Conspiracy Theory. We have the dedicated Zionist Silverstein who leases the WTC complex and over insures it against terrorism (leading to a hansom profit); we know that security at all departure airports and ‘arrival airports’ (WTC) was in Israeli hands (Huntleigh-USA and Kroll Associates, resp.); we know that the owner of Huntleigh-USA, Menachem Atzmon, a convicted criminal, had strong ties to Ehud Olmert, that is the highest level of Israeli politics; we also know that the Israeli secret service can eavesdrop (http://www.antiwar.com/orig/ketcham.php?articleid=13506)on virtually everybody in the USA via Israeli owned companies like Amdocs and Verint which gave the Mossad the possibility to obtain sound samples of future 9/11 passengers to apply voice morphing to in order to make the fake phone calls on 9/11. And of course there is Dov Zakheim, the real mastermind of 9/11 who was CEO of SPC for 4 years prior to 9/11, a company that produces systems for remote control of airplanes. The same Zakheim that was a member of the Zionist dominated PNAC group, that more or less plotted for a global American empire, and suggested that a ‘New Pearl Harbor (http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf)‘ (page 51) could speed things up a bit; and finally the same Zakheim that 6 months before 9/11 became supervisor of a group of Pentagon comptrollers that had to sort out what had happened to the 2.3 trillion dollars that were missing from the Pentagon books; many of these comptrollers conveniently got killed on 9/11 and much of the financial data went with them. This is the core of the story.
Note: I am not claiming that 9/11 is solved. Of this however we can be certain: WTC controlled demolition, Israelis carried out the operation, no Arab hijackers, mastermind Zakheim, motive PNAC & Clean Break and remote control. I do not care about flight77 or 93, those are details to be solved by crime investigators. The most pressing question is that of remote control: how was that done? Were the original flights 11 and 175 remote controlled themselves or was there a plane swap as some have suggested, including Bollyn?
Disclaimer: nobody is guilty until convicted by a court of law. This page’s intent is to stimulate thinking about 9/11 from a different angle than the official one. From day one the blame has been put at bin Laden and his people without real evidence. Today bin Laden is no longer persecuted for 9/11 according to the FBI website. The theory proposed here might be true or false or contain some truth. In the end it must be an official investigation that determines who is guilty and who is not. This page is dedicated to Italian ex-president Cossiga who is the highest ranking statesman to date who has openly stated that it was the Mossad who has carried out the 9/11 attacks.
End of Disclaimer
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/44/132113924_5b17bf600a.jpg?v=0 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/44/132113924_5b17bf600a.jpg?v=0)







9/11 – A Bad Move in the name of Anti-Imperialism

Middle Easterners and South Asians are correct to desire independence from global tyranny. The fact that they are thousands of years behind the civilized world is something that should be worked out on a technocratic level via populist revolution NOT via American intervention. The proletariat or bourgeois (it does not matter which) should fight for Technocratic revolution – that means removal of Sharia Law – but not America. The external enemy of imperialism must be defeated before the internal enemy of “religious book fundamentalism” is defeated. The change must come from the inside, not the outside. Now is the wrong time for revolution because it would only strengthen the position of imperialistic opportunists who would hijack the revolution and divert it to American interests. A temporary support of explicitly Islamic resistance against imperialism is logical for those who reject perfectionism.
If there is any confusion over whether or not I think Bin Laden’s move was a good one, I’ll clear it up by saying that it wasn’t. I sympathize with his impulse to get the invaders out of the Middle East, but randomly targeting civilians did not help his cause any more than John Wayne Gacy helped the cause of Construction Contracting by sodomizing random boys and then strangling them. The opportunist George Bush was able to achieve his goals largely because of 9/11 and its effect on public opinion. Bin Laden did no more to help his cause of anti-imperialism than Gary Ridgway helped the cause of fighting prostitution by strangling random prostitutes. The only thing Bin Laden did was take out his enemy Saddam Hussein (by accident), but he did nothing to weaken America. Even though America can’t win the war, it comes at the cost of Afghanistan infrastructure. And now world opinion is on America’s side in Afghanistan (not in Iraq).
There is no logical reason to think 9/11 was a good move, or that it increased support worldwide for the struggle against imperialism or improved the image of Islam. A Machiavellian analysis makes me conclude that 9/11 was a disaster and aided imperialism.

[LeninistKing]

Damn, man how can you wish the death of people. Nobody has the right to kill another person. Murdering people is evil.

.


Good job, Fascist States of America is deserved it and much more atacks deserved.

[LeninistKing]

tomy is right, what we need in USA is a United Jeffersonian Socialist Front for the poors in favor of the poors., there are millions of americans who are very tired, uninformed and economically limited. The people who Marxistmaoists is talking about are the middle comfortable classes, the professionals and indepedent high wage workers who own big Mcmansions, SUVs and live very comfortable, like Doctors, Laywers, Independent workers, high wage workers, small business owners, etc. they are doing very well and living a very nice life. They don't need socialism, they need capitalism, because they live in well in capitalism and all their luxuries and basic needs are met in capitalist system.

The people who we need for a socialist-revolution in USA are the lower-class, the poors, and the people in general who are beating the bullets economically, like the elderlies, homeless, low-wage workers, lumpenproletariat poors, etc.

:)

.




How can you be so narrow-minded? You can't say that all Americans live comfortably. America has a huge percentage of it's population living in abject poverty, and there are plenty of working class American families who struggle to make ends meet. Not all people in America support the troops, and I also think it's unfair to pin the imperialist nature of the war on the troops themselves. It is the government and military bosses who are to blame for this. A lot of troops disagree with the war and would rather not fight in it, but are too scared to refuse due to the risk of being court-martialled and imprisoned. It may be that huge numbers of them are racist, but I'm sure huge numbers are not racist aswell. Don't blame the troops for the bosses' disgusting policies.

Finally, I don't know how you sleep at night if you honestly believe that the 3000 deaths on 9/11 were justified because the people working in the twin towers were 'contributing to the capitalist system'. I am an anti-capitalist, but for fucks sake, people need jobs! You can't blame them for working there! I've worked in administration for a private healthcare company. I fucking hate the very idea of private healthcare, it makes me sick to my stomach, but it was the only job I could get, and it was a choice between that or starvation. Stop blaming the workers for the bosses' capitalist agenda, otherwise you cannot claim to be a socialist at all.*

*Mind you, with all due respect, I struggle to see how any self-proclaimed Maoist can call themselves a 'socialist'.

[Jimmie Higgins]

9-11 was done by Israeli Mossad Agents and by CIA, as a pretext to get the american slaves to support the War on Terror (War on behalf of Israhell, and war for geopolitical imperialist purposes and for oil)Oh brother:rolleyes:.

So does the US give money to Colombia and saber-rattle and propagandize against Venezuela because of dictates by Colombia - or is it because the US has its own imperialist agenda to which Colombia plays a part.

1. there is so much anti-arab and pro-zionist propaganda in the US that the population here already believes that either Israel is always right or that Israel and the Palestinians are morally equivalent and the conflict is due to simple religious bigotry on both sides. So why would the US try to orchestrate something to "convince americans" to support the Zionist project?

2. While the US certainty used 9/11 as an excuse to openly peruse imperialist aims it felt it could not get away with before, why orchestrate this thing now? The US ruling class has been trying to rehabilitate US imperialism for a generation - but all this time they could have blown up a building and created a short-cut for themselves? Why doesn't Obama just do that now to get rid of the anti-war sentiment? Why could the US ruling class orchestrate a terrorist attack but totally fumble making up some excuses to invade Iraq? If the ruling class can't even maintain a lie about WMDs in Iraq or aluminum tubes, how could they get away with a huge fucking lie involving multiple countries and various agencies and 2 huge buildings in the biggest city in the country?

[Axle]

Good job, Fascist States of America is deserved it and much more atacks deserved.

Its good for innocent people to die because of things their government did?

I'm pretty sure I've heard right wing pundits say that.



And what is it with all the idiots coming to this board recently?

[Comrade B]

I say we rename this thread march of the crazies... then trash it.
This is disgusting.

My mother worked in the towers. Fortunately we moved before the attacks. We knew a lot of good people, firefighters and my mother's coworkers who died.

I am glad that so many people have joined in telling this man that his is insane, but still disturbed by the slight support he has.

[Axle]

trash it.


Seconded.

[ComradeMan]

"ha ha ha" indeed, it's not exactly surprising that the man who thinks "western values" are worth defending over "islamic" ones is coming to these conclusions that I support Osama and the murder of low-level workers, he probably thinks I'm a Muslim too. :rolleyes::cool:


Oh shut up you moron:). I never said you directly supported Osama but what I do see is some sympathy towards the actions done by him and his group. Once again you start on with all this Islamic stuff, so Al Qaida represents Islam does it? If you are or aren't a Muslim that's your business but if you can't distinguish between the various forms of Islam and see both the good and bad then you shouldn't be discussing things here.

[ComradeMan]

Why do you hate the muslims so much?


stop making things up


stop making things up


stop making things up

So criticising the actions of Al Qaida along with other extreme Islamist groups is tantamount to hating muslims?

Who's making things up? Once again I challenge you to show me where something has been made up....

[9]

Read the following two screens of text to learn what happened at 9/11.
9/11 was a master plot, concocted by a handfull of Israelis and dual passport Americans and carried out by the resources of the Mossad.


Oh, look. If you want to know what genuinely can be called "left wing anti-Semitism", here is a great example. But where are ComradeMan's accusations when the real thing comes around? Like most Zionists, nowhere to be found. On the contrary, the user responsible for the bit I've quoted received a "thanks" from ComradeMan in the post directly following this one. No surprise there.

This entire thread should really be trashed.

[PaulMarsh]

One of the projects I have worked on over the past few years is a blog, 9/11 Cultwatch, dedicated to exposing some of the dangers of 9/11 and 7/7 'truth' ideologies.

http://paulstott.typepad.com/911cultwatch/

We have worked hard in Green, Anarchist and leftist circles to counter the spread of 'truth' ideologies, in large part because we believe it is important to blame Bush/Blair/Brown etc for the things they have done (which is bad enough) rather than making things up.

[ls]

Oh, look. If you want to know what genuinely can be called "left wing anti-Semitism", here is a great example. But where are ComradeMan's accusations when the real thing comes around? Like most Zionists, nowhere to be found. On the contrary, the user responsible for the bit I've quoted received a "thanks" from ComradeMan in the post directly following this one. No surprise there.

This entire thread should really be trashed.

Absolutely correct as usual. Zionists actually are extremely anti-semitic, don't you just love the confusion on Stormfront at "blood and honour israel"? And yes, it was a real thing: link (http://anonym.to/?http://google.com/search?q=cache:31_kW8BtSGwJ:www.***************/forum/showthread.php%3Ft%3D183349+http://www.***************/forum/showthread.php%3Ft%3D183349&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a).

All kinds of fascists have been seen parading the Israeli flag, examples include the english defence league in birmingham, loyalist orangemen in ulster, american renaissance going on and on about how they are so great etc.

[The Red Next Door]

Can someone ban this idiot?
i like it better when you said c**t

[The Vegan Marxist]

I'm actually working on a book cover design right now on a book I'm going to be getting published. It'll be my 4th book, but this time it's going to be an actual book instead of a book filled with poems, short-stories, movie-scripts, essays, etc., & the book that I'm working on right now deal with debunking the b.s. theories created by the Alex Jones cult, or for what they like to call themselves, "The Truth Movement". I'm definitely not done with the design yet, but it's getting there. Right now, if the title wasn't on there, it would look like a pro-9/11 truth movement book, but trust me, it's not, & the cover will soon reveal that it's most definitely against the 9/11 cult.

[picture of book cover]

removed picture because it contains personal/identifying information (i presume) wich is not alowed on this forum
psycho

[The Red Next Door]

I'm actually working on a book cover design right now on a book I'm going to be getting published. It'll be my 4th book, but this time it's going to be an actual book instead of a book filled with poems, short-stories, movie-scripts, essays, etc., & the book that I'm working on right now deal with debunking the b.s. theories created by the Alex Jones cult, or for what they like to call themselves, "The Truth Movement". I'm definitely not done with the design yet, but it's getting there. Right now, if the title wasn't on there, it would look like a pro-9/11 truth movement book, but trust me, it's not, & the cover will soon reveal that it's most definitely against the 9/11 cult.


nice

[Robocommie]

I remember years ago in college, this was right after the attacks, a college professor of mine was talking about how a jackass conservative he knows was blaming the 9/11 attacks on "all the immigrants" and how the attacks showed we had to get them out of this country. But just a few days after he said that, just a few days after the attacks, my professor had been watching the news when they were talking about a lowly janitor who had gone running back into the building before it had collapsed, to make sure everyone got out, and how he alone had been responsible for saving a handful of folks.

When they interviewed him over the phone, he spoke in broken English, and had a Hispanic name.

You know a lot of people died in 9/11 and you can't make any kind of generalizations about whether they deserved it or not. And killing civilians is just fucking out of bounds, no matter what. The minute you start doing that, you've destroyed your own message.

[The Red Next Door]

I remember years ago in college, this was right after the attacks, a college professor of mine was talking about how a jackass conservative he knows was blaming the 9/11 attacks on "all the immigrants" and how the attacks showed we had to get them out of this country. But just a few days after he said that, just a few days after the attacks, my professor had been watching the news when they were talking about a lowly janitor who had gone running back into the building before it had collapsed, to make sure everyone got out, and how he alone had been responsible for saving a handful of folks.

When they interviewed him over the phone, he spoke in broken English, and had a Hispanic name.

You know a lot of people died in 9/11 and you can't make any kind of generalizations about whether they deserved it or not. And killing civilians is just fucking out of bounds, no matter what. The minute you start doing that, you've destroyed your own message.
exactly

[The Vegan Marxist]

Okay, why was the picture that I posted blocked? Identity? Those people were part of the truth movement, & famous for that b.s. because they're the creators of the misleading 'Loose Change' documentary on 9/11 conspiracy theories. And please, explain to me why personal identification is blocked in this forum? Are you afraid they might come after you, for whoever 'they' is? If you were a threat to 'them' then 'they' would find you no matter what, so stop hiding behind the shadows.

So, in the name of Rage Against the Machine, 'Fuck you! I won't do what you tell me!':

[picture album cover]

not theirs, yours, you silly
your name is on the front of the cover.... edit it out and it can stay...

[The Vegan Marxist]

why does it matter? I don't care if people know my name, nor do I care if the government knows my name. If I'm a threat to them then they'll find me either way, especially if they're basing their threat from the internet where they can track me. so what's the point? and btw, my real first name isn't the first name that I go by on the book, nor as I've gone by my entire life, despite my real first name is on record on everything. So, banning the picture with a wrong first name is not against the rules, so:

doesnt matter that you dont mind, its against the board guidelines.
post it with out your name on it and its fine, post it again like this and you'll recieve an infraction.

[Jimmie Higgins]

the book that I'm working on right now deal with debunking the b.s. theories created by the Alex Jones cult, or for what they like to call themselves, "The Truth Movement". I'm definitely not done with the design yet, but it's getting there. Right now, if the title wasn't on there, it would look like a pro-9/11 truth movement book, but trust me, it's not, & the cover will soon reveal that it's most definitely against the 9/11 cult.That's interesting - is it an overall take on what this "movement" is about - or is it sort of a point-by-point debunking of their particular arguments?

If feel like trying to argue against conspiracy theories is like batteling a hydra - the more arguments you win, the more new arguements they come up with.

"Dude, don't you know that publishing that book is playing right into their hands?"

"Whose hands?"

"Their hands!"

[APathToTake]

"Dude, don't you know that publishing that book is playing right into their hands?"

"Whose hands?"

"Their hands!"


I actually had a arguement with someone over youtube about 9/11 and Chomsky which ran along similar lines :lol:

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

9-11 was a terrorist attack by muslim extremists. I personally believe that the attack affected a portion of the American proletariat, thus rendering it an unfortunate event. If the attack exclusively annihilated bourgeois capitalists I would've been thankful. You can in no way, shape, or form be happy towards the 9-11 event. Workers died.

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

Now, let me tell you no one would attack us if the US would radically change its foreign policy. Due to our awful external politics we have won a lot of enemies. As long as capitalism is alive in America, America will always have enemies. Socialism would offer a new alternative, it would make the US a peace-loving country and thus make it a friend to many nations. Events like the 9-11 attack would not repeat itself.

[The Red Next Door]

9-11 was a terrorist attack by muslim extremists. I personally believe that the attack affected a portion of the American proletariat, thus rendering it an unfortunate event. If the attack exclusively annihilated bourgeois capitalists I would've been thankful. You can in no way, shape, or form be happy towards the 9-11 event. Workers died.
I am all for fighting against bourgeois but they are human beings too.

[The Red Next Door]

Now, let me tell you no one would attack us if the US would radically change its foreign policy. Due to our awful external politics we have won a lot of enemies. As long as capitalism is alive in America, America will always have enemies. Socialism would offer a new alternative, it would make the US a peace-loving country and thus make it a friend to many nations. Events like the 9-11 attack would not repeat itself.
It depends on who charge in the socialist America, would we have a leader like Dr. King or Gandhi or someone like Stalin and even though we are peace living country. We will still have violence are society and we need a military to defend those who want to destroy us because we are peace living and socialist. You can not stop attacks from being repeating themselves because there always gonna to be someone who are not gonna like us, especially if we became a socialist country.

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

I am all for fighting against bourgeois but they are human beings too.


Greetings Comrade,

I understand your position completely. As revolutionaries we are humanitarian in that we seek to save humanity from the evils of capitalism. But let me be clear, do you think the bourgeoisie contemplates on weather, the millions upon millions dying of malnutrition, starvation, etc. are human beings? The answer is no comrade. Like Comrade T.A.C.O said "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". :) It sounds cruel but it is justice being done comrade.

Comrade Antonio

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

It depends on who charge in the socialist America, would we have a leader like Dr. King or Gandhi or someone like Stalin and even though we are peace living country. We will still have violence are society and we need a military to defend those who want to destroy us because we are peace living and socialist. You can not stop attacks from being repeating themselves because there always gonna to be someone who are not gonna like us, especially if we became a socialist country.


Well comrade the attacks that were done to America so far were due to the monstrous actions of US imperialism executed to other countries. If America were to become socialist, we wouldn't invade or start "trouble". Only then, would countries start respecting and admiring us as a peace-loving nation. I see where your getting at and I totally agree but I just wanted to give you the context from which I'm talking about.

[José Gabriel Túpac Amaru]

Greetings Comrade,

I understand your position completely. As revolutionaries we are humanitarian in that we seek to save humanity from the evils of capitalism. But let me be clear, do you think the bourgeoisie contemplates on weather, the millions upon millions dying of malnutrition, starvation, etc. are human beings? The answer is no comrade. Like Comrade T.A.C.O said "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". :) It sounds cruel but it is justice being done comrade.

Comrade Antonio


So if you believe in a tooth for a tooth an eye for an eye a life for a life, you sound christian conservative.
If i killed someone because i was broke and my kids had no food, and i shot a middle class guy for his wallet, i wouldnt deserve to die, i would deserve to be locked up and re educated, educated why i was poor and that taking money for myself wouldnt help my class as a whole.

[Jimmie Higgins]

If the attack exclusively annihilated bourgeois capitalists I would've been thankful. You can in no way, shape, or form be happy towards the 9-11 event. Workers died.

I agree that the underlying blame for the attack should definitely be placed on US forign policy and by extension the US ruling class. But even if the terrorists blew up the stock exchange on CEO tour-day when all the workers were gone, I don't think deaths should be celebrated - at best it would be a "chickens coming home to roost" sort of thing.

I have no problems with deaths coming from workers or oppressed people defending themselves, but things like 9/11 really only result in giving ruling classes an excuse to increase their repression (and their terror around the world) and even gain the sympathy of oppressed people and workers.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Jews did it

[Sasha]

Jews did it

dont make these kind of jokes (i presume its an joke, i hope its an joke) a specialy outside of chitchat. verbal warning.

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

So if you believe in a tooth for a tooth an eye for an eye a life for a life, you sound christian conservative.
If i killed someone because i was broke and my kids had no food, and i shot a middle class guy for his wallet, i wouldnt deserve to die, i would deserve to be locked up and re educated, educated why i was poor and that taking money for myself wouldnt help my class as a whole.


Comrade I understand what your trying to say, but you using another contextual setting. Im exclusively talking about bourgeois deaths, not proletarian deaths.

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

I agree that the underlying blame for the attack should definitely be placed on US forign policy and by extension the US ruling class. But even if the terrorists blew up the stock exchange on CEO tour-day when all the workers were gone, I don't think deaths should be celebrated - at best it would be a "chickens coming home to roost" sort of thing.

I have no problems with deaths coming from workers or oppressed people defending themselves, but things like 9/11 really only result in giving ruling classes an excuse to increase their repression (and their terror around the world) and even gain the sympathy of oppressed people and workers.


I agree their comrade. But, the bourgeois class lost members in the unfortunate event. The 9-11 event is two fold, first I applaud it do to its "bourgeois deaths" nature and then its "repressive nature" towards the Iraqi masses and the Afghan masses. I agree with what you say brother but Im using another context as I told the comrade from up above.

[ZeroNowhere]

It sounds cruel but it is justice being done comrade.
It's funny that justice in this case only ends up killing some people and accomplishes nothing. It sounds kinda silly, really.

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

It's funny that justice in this case only ends up killing some people and accomplishes nothing. It sounds kinda silly, really.

Again, you are taking me out of context. There is a saying and it goes like this "the only good bourgeoisie is a dead bourgeoisie". It does accomplish something, that is hits the bourgeoisie to the very heart. It has its negative effect as well. But that I do not have to explain, I already mentioned it. I'm going to ask you for a favor my brother, don't take me out of context. Don't be like Glenn Beck :)

[The Vegan Marxist]

Alright, well, my initial belief is that terrorists attacked the towers, and happened because we've attacked them & bombed their land so many times in the past that it was logical to assume they were going to retaliate. But of course, our solution to 9/11 was, ironically, to bomb them some more, which will eventually fuck us over in the long run, again! My belief though, transcends from the belief that Serj Tankian brought forth after 9/11:



Understanding Oil
By Serj Tankian
9/13/2001

The brutal attacks/bombings this week in New York, and Washington D.C., along with threats of attacks there and elsewhere in the country have changed our times forever. While the mass media concentrates on the details of the destruction, and the blanketed words of politicians, I will attempt to understand and explain the events from the fence. BOMBING AND BEING BOMBED ARE THE SAME THINGS ON DIFFERENT SIDES OF THE FENCE.

Terror is not a spontaneous human action without credence. People just dont hijack planes and commit harikari (suicide) without any weight of thought to the action. No one in the media seems to ask WHY DID THESE PEOPLE DO THIS HORRIFIC ACT OF VIOLENCE AND DESTRUCTION?

To be able to understand the answer to this, we must first look at our U.S. Mideast Policy. During most of the 20th century, U.S. businesses have worked on attaining oil rights and concessions from countries in the Middle East and Eastern Europe. After WWI, secret back door deals by our State Dept. yielded oil rights from then defeated Turkey to fields in what is now Iraq and Saudi Arabia, in return for looking the other way at a crime against humanity, the Genocide of the Armenians by the Turks. Oil profits have been the motivating factors behind many attempts at counterinsurgency of democratic regimes by the CIA and the U.S in the Middle East (such as Iran in the 1950s, where the Shah replaced the Prime Minister who refused to give up oil rights to the U.S., and since the people couldnt deal with the Shah, an extremist government headed by the Ayatollah Khomeini ultimately prevailed). During the Iran-Iraq war, America supplied both sides with weapons and advice. These are not the actions of a rich superpower wanting peace. Lets not forget that Saddam Hussein, before being Americas vision of the Anti-Christ, was a close ally of the U.S., and the CIA. So what was the firm belief system of consecutive American administrations that caused all this to occur ? PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST WILL LEAD TO HIGHER OIL AND GASOLINE PRICES. Lets not also forget the power of the Arms industry, disguised as defense, that still sells billions of dollars of weapons to the area. Therefore it has not been in the short-term economic interest of the U.S. to foster Peace in the Middle East. Using the above reasoning, the U.S. has encouraged extremist governments, toppled democracies, as in the case of Iran to replace it with a monarchy, rigged elections, and many more unspeakable political crimes for U.S. businesses abroad. Lets not also forget the Red Scare. During the war between the then Soviet Union and Afghanistan, the U.S. armed and supported the Taliban, a fundamentalist Muslim organization, and allowed them to export opium and heroin out of their country to pay for those weapons. Therefore the Taliban rose to power and control with the help of the U.S.A. Today, the bombing of Iraq still continues, no longer covered by the media, the economic embargo still remains, killing millions of children, and recently, while the world and the U.N. General Assembly have cried out to bring in peacekeeping forces into Israel and Palestine, to end the escalated war and recent assassinations, the U.S. has vetoed the rest of the Security Council and has halted the possibility of peace, there, in the most volatile place in the world.

People in Serbia, Lebanon, Iraq, Sudan, and Afghanistan to name a few have seen bombs fall, not always at military targets and kill innocent civilians, as the scene in New York city yesterday. The wars waged by our government in our names has landed smack in the middle of our living room. The half hour of destruction closed down all world financial markets, struck the central headquarters of our military, and had our leaders running into bunkers, and our citizens into fear and frenzy. What scares me more than what has occurred is what our reactions to the occurrences may cause. President Bush belongs to a long generation of Republican Presidents who love war economies. The media has only concentrated on the bombings, if you will, and what type of retaliations are looming for the perpetrators. What everyone fails to realize is that the bombings are a reaction to existing injustices around the world, generally unseen to most Americans. To react to a reaction would be to further sponsor the reaction. In other words, my belief is that the terror will multiply if concrete steps are not taken to sponsor peace in the middle east, NOW. This does not mean that we should not find the guilty party(s), Bin Laden, or whoever they may be, and not try them. Put simply, as long as a major injustice remains, violence precipitates to the surface of life.

Native American folklore, the Bible, Nostradamus, and many other major religious beliefs point to this era with the visuals of yesterdays disasters, and conditions of ecological disasters we experience daily in our lives today. War, rumors of war, famine, long burning fires, etc., are at our doorstep. We can prevail over this possible vision with the power of the human spirit, understanding, compassion, and peace. ITS TIME TO PUT OUR NEEDS FOR SECURITY AND SURVIVAL, ACHIEVED ONLY THROUGH PEACE, ABOVE AND BEYOND PROFITS, ESPECIALLY IN THESE TIMES.

SOLUTION:

The U.S. should stop sidestepping the U.N. Security Council, and allow U.N. Peacekeeping troops and missions to the Middle East. Stop the violence first.
Stop the bombing and patrol of Iraq.

With todays gains in the use of alternative fuels, develop them to full usage with autos and other utilities, to make the country less dependant on an already depleting natural reserve, oil.

By initiating peace, we would have already shaken the foundations of support for Bin Laden, and/or all those that sponsor activities like those we saw yesterday, and break the stronghold of extremists on the world of Islam. On the other hand, if we carry out bombings on Afghanistan or elsewhere to appease public demand, and very likely kill innocent civilians along the way, wed be creating many more martyrs going to their deaths in retaliation against the retaliation. As shown from yesterdays events, you cannot stop a person whos ready to die.

http://donce.awardspace.com/esej.html

[dar8888]

I am not a fan of al-Qaeda or the Taliban - they represent the worst tendencies in religious faith. However, in an objective sense, terrorists often feel that they have no other option. They feel crushed by some power or other, and think that only violence will set them free.

In most cases, the problems could be alleviated through civilised negotiation, but the power in charge rarely wants to discuss issues with the disenfranchised - all you have to do is look at the Palestinians to see this in action. When they elected a government that the U.S. didn't like, we cut off our aid to them.

Al-Qaeda, on the other hand, are terrorists in a different sense - they are driven by theology, not desperation and, like the early Christians, don't care who they hurt to accomplish their goals. I would imagine that Montezuma and the Aztecs would have considered the Conquistadors to be terrorists(once they figured out that they weren't gods) - had they known the term.

[PaulMarsh]

I'm actually working on a book cover design right now on a book I'm going to be getting published. It'll be my 4th book, but this time it's going to be an actual book instead of a book filled with poems, short-stories, movie-scripts, essays, etc., & the book that I'm working on right now deal with debunking the b.s. theories created by the Alex Jones cult, or for what they like to call themselves, "The Truth Movement". I'm definitely not done with the design yet, but it's getting there. Right now, if the title wasn't on there, it would look like a pro-9/11 truth movement book, but trust me, it's not, & the cover will soon reveal that it's most definitely against the 9/11 cult.



Good luck with it, something like this is really overdue.

If there is anything you can take from my blog on this, feel free, although do acknowledge it:

http://paulstott.typepad.com/911cultwatch/

[mosfeld]

Haha.. am I the only one who loves this guy? Seriously, how can ANY sensible human being fall for a troll that obvious? (i.e MarxistLeninistMaoist)

[Crusade]

I've never done an investigation myself, so I can't say that I'm sure. I'm leaning more toward it being an inside job, but it could be my usual distrust of the US government that pushes me in that direction.

If it was a genuine terrorist act motivated by US imperialism it's still 100% wrong. My god imagine if someone you loved died in that attack?(your wife/girlfriend, your best friend, your children etc) Would you still champion it as an attack on imperialism? Killing innocent people is ALWAYS wrong no matter what side of the border they're on.

[Hemperor]

Hi, first post. Was quickly browsing through the site and saw 9/11 come up, felt I had to pitch my say.

Personally, there isn't an ounce of truth in the official story. Between a steel building that had no plane hit it collapsing symetrically at free fall speed and recovering a terrorist paper passport from the wreckage while the rest is sent overseas because there isn't even a fragment of wreckage bigger than a square inch. No family members could retrieve bodies.

Those are two small points, but I could really debate any point on 9/11 if anyone would like, the whole thing is truly a joke. 9/11 truth movements don't involve "there was no actual plane" or any other ridiculous theories, which are often used to discredit real "truthers". 9/11 truth movements are most definitely growing, I think we can all agree on this as well (regardless of your stance on it), a lot of people (including myself) who used to respond to these ideas as calling them crock pot and crazy have now really done a 180 on the issue after being able to look at a lot of the evidence with a CLEAR AND OPEN MIND.

That's the big one, open mind, which most people are incapable of. Not to point fingers, but there's just no way that crock pot conspiracy nut could be right! I won't even civilly discuss his points, he's just crazy! Well, you get the idea.

One thing I think we can all agree on is that no one deserves to die that way, regardless of your nationality, and that the US response and exploitation of the highly emotional event was absolutely disgusting and down right tyrannical.

I prefer not to label myself left, right, up, down or what have you. I'm a young Canadian guy, if that counts for anything :)

[Jimmie Higgins]

Welcome Hemperor of the north:lol:,

Well, I do not not believe any of the conspiracy theories and think it's reasonable to assume that the largest empire in the world would become the target of both legitimate as well as, in this case or Timothy McVeigh, nut-job attacks.

I am an open minded person, but this does not mean I simply believe everything. Creationists can make similar arguments pointing out inconsistencies in various parts of the theory of evolution, but it still doesn't negate the overwhelming evidence supporting the general idea of evolution. I think it is the same with the 9/11 truth movement as well - if you are convinced that the event was "an inside job" or whatnot and go looking for inconsistencies, you will find them - just as if you look for inconsistencies in the early human fossil record in order to try and poke holes in this or that claim of evolution theorists.

But at any rate, I'm curious about why you think this is important? For me, regardless of weather 9/11 was an inside job or faked or whatnot, it doesn't really mean much. I think 9/11 happened and it's sad that 3 thousand people died. If it was some plot by the government or just by a group of terrorists, nothing can be done about it now. What can be changes is the thousands of people who WILL die and are being killed as we speak because of the US imperialist occupations. What matters is that the US, has used 9/11 to make the world more untable and to give a green light for a new era where the big powers are going to play out their rivalries in a much more forceful way.

The 9/11 truth movement is a waste of energy and time - if the sincere people who are involved in this movement or believed in that could devote that time to stopping the US wars, then they might actually be able to accomplish something worthwhile. But in the end, conspiracy theories always tend to be obstructions to actually finding out the truth and actually being able to change things for the better.

[Hemperor]

Welcome Hemperor of the north:lol:,

Well, I do not not believe any of the conspiracy theories and think it's reasonable to assume that the largest empire in the world would become the target of both legitimate as well as, in this case or Timothy McVeigh, nut-job attacks.

I am an open minded person, but this does not mean I simply believe everything. Creationists can make similar arguments pointing out inconsistencies in various parts of the theory of evolution, but it still doesn't negate the overwhelming evidence supporting the general idea of evolution. I think it is the same with the 9/11 truth movement as well - if you are convinced that the event was "an inside job" or whatnot and go looking for inconsistencies, you will find them - just as if you look for inconsistencies in the early human fossil record in order to try and poke holes in this or that claim of evolution theorists.

But at any rate, I'm curious about why you think this is important? For me, regardless of weather 9/11 was an inside job or faked or whatnot, it doesn't really mean much. I think 9/11 happened and it's sad that 3 thousand people died. If it was some plot by the government or just by a group of terrorists, nothing can be done about it now. What can be changes is the thousands of people who WILL die and are being killed as we speak because of the US imperialist occupations. What matters is that the US, has used 9/11 to make the world more untable and to give a green light for a new era where the big powers are going to play out their rivalries in a much more forceful way.

The 9/11 truth movement is a waste of energy and time - if the sincere people who are involved in this movement or believed in that could devote that time to stopping the US wars, then they might actually be able to accomplish something worthwhile. But in the end, conspiracy theories always tend to be obstructions to actually finding out the truth and actually being able to change things for the better.

When I said "open minded" I didn't mean that you had to believe it, but give yourself the chance to actually take a clear look at the most common evidence.

It is definitely reasonable to assume that America can be attacked by other nations or people. I don't discredit the official story for that.

I discredit the official story because none of it adds up, jets that would intercept normally not being told to do so.
3 steel buildings never have collapsed before due to fire, on 9/11 3 of them did, 1 was never hit by an air plane. All 3 collapsed symmetrically and rapidly.
Many other things I won't list here, as this discussion isn't really about it.

I don't plan on ever convincing someone one way or the other when talking about 9/11, only to encourage them to look at the information out there on the internet and form an opinion on their own. There are thousands of architects and engineers alone that are petitioning for 9/11 truth, it isn't a nut-job movement.

You are correct in saying that what has followed because of 9/11 is what is important and I think generally the world disagrees with how it has been handled and exploited. It's been 8 years now and the emotion and fear has pretty well worn off for the American people from the event, people are starting to wake up.

Anyways, really late for me so that may not have been the most coherent post. I will definitely write here more often, it's not easy finding civil discussion/debate on issues like these, regardless of your stance on it.