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Matty_UK
1st January 2010, 07:51
This is more of a fantasy-speculation topic than a serious thread, so I decided to post it in chit-chat. What scenarios do you the see leading to a Communist victory in the next century, or if you don't see any scenarios what do you predict we have ahead in rest of the 21st century?

Best case scenario: Communism Will Win

Between 2010 and 2015, the economic crisis will worsen due to the bailout money being used on the same short-sighted speculation that led to the crisis in the first place, only this time national coffers the world over will be empty so no money can be used to prop up the banks. The collapse of the public sector will exacerbate the crisis, leading to the first global bankruptcy. The reaction from the public will be largely politically confused and consist of aimless rioting and looting. The radical left will grow somewhat but not drastically, apart from in certain European countries (e.g. France, Greece) where they will begin to constitute a mass movement. There will be a trend towards political authoritarianism and martial law, combined with heavy handed witch-hunting of the radical left, forcing them to become an underground movement, albeit with greater public sympathy but demonised by the media.

In the US, the relatively mild left wing and labour reaction to the crisis, combined with panic over events in Europe, will cause wild conspiracy theories about a communist takeover and will be met with violent vigilante action by the Glenn Beck/Tea Party types, combined with a coup d'etat led by the most reactionary militaristic wing of big business (the liberal elites will do nothing) and by the military, who will attempt to reverse American decline through military means, and alleviate the crisis through military spending and absorbing the unemployed through conscription. They will attack Iran, causing a series of events that lead to a spiral of generalised war in the Middle East, and ruthless occupation of most of the region. However, conscription of liberals and relatively sensible Americans in the military will sap morale and there will be some sporadic munities and defections.

By 2020, Russia and China will ally as an anti-US bloc, but won't risk direct confrontation, knowing it would mean mutual annihilation. They will instead give assistance to insurgents, and fuelled by similar reasons to the US militarisation will establish a military presence in Africa, and face US/EU sponsored insurgencies, in a "hot cold war." European countries, nominally allied with the US, will in turn establish their own military presence in Africa, in a renewed worldwide struggle for hegemony using "humanitarian intervention" and Europe's moral superiority to Russian and Chinese despotism as an acceptable-in-Europe excuse, but not THAT acceptable.

Latin America's leftwards drift will sharply accelerate, leading to socialist revolution across the continent by 2020, and the establishment of unified socialist government across the continent.

At the same time, India's Maoists will gain even greater public sympathy in India, as large scale military confrontation with them begins in 2010, which will be seen by most Indians as ruthless repression. The economic crisis in turn will swell their ranks, and see their influence spread to the cities - Bangladesh and Sri Lanka will see similar copycat movements as the crisis deepens. The Maoists will be victorious around a similar time to the Latin American left, and revolution with help from revolutionary India will rapidly spread to Nepal, Bhutan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka who will form a unified government, and a mutual self-defense pact with the revolutionary Latin American states.

China and Russia will find themselves allied with the US and the Eurozone in response to the revolutionary crisis and will attempt to militarily defeat the South Asian Soviet Bloc. The still largely socialist Chinese working class and peasantry will see it as the CCPs final betrayal to send them to fight against Maoists, and refuse to fight. The Russian working class likewise will be struck by the historical parrellels of the still much respected October Revolution, and will likewise mutiny rather than fight, and Russia and China will likewise begin revolutions.

The US will move in to attack Latin America, but by this point anti-war sentiment within the ranks will become unmanageable and the troops will mutiny. In the middle east there will be mass desertions and defections to the revolutionary movements in Asia and a victory for the insurgents, who will by this point be split between communists and islamists - the middle east will be plunged into civil war between these factions, but the communists will secure a rapid victory. The US itself will be plunged into a drawn out civil war, with no decisive victory for the communists for many years.

France will see the first revolution in Europe, and other western European elites, cut off from public opinion, will believe that their propaganda in the media represents public opinion and attempt to militarily defeat the French revolution - however likewise, the soldiers will join the revolution rather than fight.

By 2025, a global socialist federation will be established across Asia, Europe, and South America and will direct it's attentions towards ensuring Communist victory in the US civil war.

The Russian, European, and Chinese military presence in Africa will incorporate the continent into the socialist federation and direct it's attentions towards economic development. By 2030, the first global government and end to the Final World War will be formally announced.

2030 to 2050 will be marked by humanity working together to alleviate poverty which will become a thing of history by 2050, and by united humanitarian efforts to deal with the consequences of climate change and introduce green technology, and global projects to automate repetitive, boring jobs, as well as the destruction of the worlds nuclear arsenal. Private cars will be abolished in favour of a wide ranging, free, and highly advanced global network of public transport, making it once again safe for children to run free playing in the street. National borders will become a thing of the past, and the difference between city and countryside will be progressively eliminated. Communities will be made self sufficient with highly advanced, low-labour agricultural zones and small scale, green, automated local production, for the community to utilise when necassary according to need, causing the global socialist state to gradually fade away. The concept of careers and wages will gradually disappear as work becomes a voluntary and shared task. Community life will see spirituality make a surprise comeback, but will be compatible with science and increasingly stripped of superstitious content. Community life and agriculture will see a return of diverse, authentic and unique traditions, festivals and customs and different local characters and cuisine. Fast food will be abolished and organic food will become the norm. Community life and abolition of advertising will ensure the enforcement of positive community values and crime will all but cease to exist. Due to the ability of the community as a whole to provide for children, the family system will gradually disappear in the final emancipation of woman, and the concept of a father will become relatively unimportant, with male role models instead being numerous. Think something like the matriarchal Mosuo tribe - http://www.spiegel.de/international/...627363,00.html (http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,627363,00.html)

By 2050-60 this process will be complete marking the end of the transition from socialism to communism, and humanity will enter a new golden age marked by rapid scientific progress and creative genius, with space exploration and terraforming becoming the defining global project, and the first thriving, independant Martian colonies will be established by 2100.

Worst case scenario - initially the same as above, except there is no revolution and instead we are plunged into either a dark age or exctinction by environmental catastrophe and nuclear war.

Tower of Bebel
1st January 2010, 09:42
Worst case scenario - initially the same as above, except there is no revolution and instead we are plunged into either a dark age or exctinction by environmental catastrophe and nuclear war.I didn't bother reading the first part, but I don't believe why you should fear doom. Capitalism is profiting from current production relations that polute the world and does damage to the invironment. But that doesn't mean that capitalism will plunge us into exinction. When it become profitable to change production relations, and capitalists can do that when capital demands such action, into a more environmental-healthy situation then the "dark age" of the future wont come.

Matty_UK
1st January 2010, 10:08
I didn't bother reading the first part, but I don't believe why you should fear doom. Capitalism is profiting from current production relations that polute the world and does damage to the invironment. But that doesn't mean that capitalism will plunge us into exinction. When it become profitable to change production relations, and capitalists can do that when capital demands such action, into a more environmental-healthy situation then the "dark age" of the future wont come.

I disagree, although no doubt you're familiar with my reasons already so I won't go into them.

How would capitalism transform production relations into something more environmentally healthy, what the new relations look like, and what will be profitable about them? I don't see much cause for optimism here, but I'm curious to hear your line of reasoning.

Tower of Bebel
1st January 2010, 10:43
I disagree, although no doubt you're familiar with my reasons already so I won't go into them.

How would capitalism transform production relations into something more environmentally healthy, what the new relations look like, and what will be profitable about them? I don't see much cause for optimism here, but I'm curious to hear your line of reasoning.
I meant a change affecting the means of production (industries), and the ways we produce, not the (social) relations of production. Sorry about that.

I think transformation isn't the correct word either. That word seems to imply something more radical than I have in mind. I think that capitalism will search for the most profitable policies and economics. That's one of polution right now but could be one of "green economics" in the future. I don't see why capitalists wouldn't use "green" industries to exploit labour in the same way as they use the current way of production.

The same with nuclear weapons. Capitalists have them now, but don't have to use them. To ruin the world is not in the interest of capital.

Matty_UK
1st January 2010, 11:06
I meant a change affecting the means of production (industries), and the ways we produce, not the (social) relations of production. Sorry about that.

I think transformation isn't the correct word either. That word seems to imply something more radical than I have in mind. I think that capitalism will search for the most profitable policies and economics. That's one of polution right now but could be one of "green economics" in the future. I don't see why capitalists wouldn't use "green" industries to exploit labour in the same way as they use the current way of production.

The same with nuclear weapons. Capitalists have them now, but don't have to use them. To ruin the world is not in the interest of capital.

Firstly, I agree with you about nuclear weapons, and I don't think capitalists will willfully destroy the world (in my "best case" scenario I say that an inter-imperialist war is more likely to resemble a "hot cold war" of proxy wars than direct confrontation) but I think it could be complacent to deny that it remains a possibility, and if not a nuclear war it is possible that a massively destructive inter-imperialist war could bring a social regression huge enough to be worthy of the term dark age.

I disagree that green production techniques will become a reality under capitalism. Right now, they are more expensive to implement, and I don't see much reason to assume they might one day become cheaper that destructive methods. (especially because, we truly don't have that much time to be waiting around for it to happen)

Furthermore, capitalism depends on constant economic growth and producing more and more commodities at a faster and faster rate, (the drive for ever-increasing productivity driven by competition) meaning it's unlikely to ever get more environmentally sustainable even if production does become cleaner, and is more likely to get worse and worse. (as is happening - any reduction in CO2 output lately?)

ZeroNowhere
1st January 2010, 15:19
"Some economists are in the business of making long-term predictions, but only because there’s good money to be made doing so."

Dr Mindbender
1st January 2010, 16:05
Worst case scenario - initially the same as above, except there is no revolution and instead we are plunged into either a dark age or exctinction by environmental catastrophe and nuclear war.

Correction. I dont see the human race becoming extinct anytime soon, and no 2 countries are in a position to go to nuclear war.Worst case scenario is that the fascists take advantage of the situation, gain power, sending us all to concentration camps.

Wanted Man
1st January 2010, 16:12
Nothing. Nothing will happen. I have two questions:

-Why is this in Chit Chat?
-Why is Matty still a "Commie Club Member"? :lol:

Matty_UK
1st January 2010, 16:32
Nothing. Nothing will happen. I have two questions:

-Why is this in Chit Chat?
-Why is Matty still a "Commie Club Member"? :lol:

Because it's not meant to be a serious prediction, just idle speculation.

And hmm, sorry, I suppose I'm not the best contributor, I usually just assume that because I don't post too frequently or have an avatar that no-one knows who I am so I don't worry too much about what I'm posting. I promise you my knowledge of marxism is fairly advanced, but I'm more of a reader than a poster and have a habit of not bothering to post if I expect someone else to say what I have to say. The result is a lot of the stuff I do post consists of fanciful ideas that I'm toying with only semi-seriously that tend to be outside the "normal" discourse of this forum. (which I tend to ignore, because someone else is going to say something similar anyway) I suppose that shows I don't have a lot invested in this forum, so there isn't much need for me to be in the commie club except that it's sometimes fun to read the latest dramas.

Jimmie Higgins
1st January 2010, 17:25
Idle speculation - my favorite kind of speculation!

Ok, letssee... the economic crisis will lead to a new round of revolts against neoliberal policies in Latin America. A strike wave in Brazil leads to mass workplace occupations and a working class revolution. This sends shock-waves across the industrialized world.

The economic crisis along with anger at the government's support of the US wars in the middle east and optimism about the revolution in Brazil leads to a second revolution in Egypt.

The US is tied down in occupations in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and heavily involved in conflicts in Yemen, so it relies on Colombia to attack the revolution in Brazil while Israel threatens to occupy Egypt but realistically can not because there is an uprising in the West Bank in solidarity with the revolution in Egypt.

The American left (north and south) in reinvigorated by the revolutions and strikes in Mexico and Venezuela lead to the formation of some isolated worker councils. In the US, the left leads a movement against the wars in the middle east and the government's attempts to topple the revolution in Brazil. US dockworkers refuse to handle shipments to or from Colombia or Israel or war supplies and the national guard is sent out and when the national guard is used against dockworkers, there is a nation-wide general strike and sympathy strikes of truckers and dockworkers across Europe.

The sympathy strikes leads to a national general strike in France and then a Revolution because the French are generally awesome like that and don't want to be outdone by Brazil and Egypt.

When a revolution is narrowly put down in Mexico, the US threatens the use of nuclear weapons to stop the flow of revolutions and by this point, the revolutions are seen by the US population as having much more credibility than the US government and a second general strike is organized. This strike paralyzes most coastal US cities along with Atlanta, Chicago and Las Vegas and leads to the first worker councils in the US and widespread mutiny among US GIs.

Tyrlop
1st January 2010, 19:03
i don't know why you people seem to like France so much, its one of the most bourgeois and neoliberal and nationalist country in europe. and their president have so much god damn power almost more then obama.

FreeFocus
1st January 2010, 19:41
Russia and China are not progressive forces in the world. Both are seeking to expand their imperial interests.

What I do see happening relatively soon is an American invasion and occupation of Yemen (particularly if the Yemeni government collapses) and/or a country in Latin America. I don't see worldwide revolution being realistic - it will be a long, drawn out, uneven process.

Jimmie Higgins
1st January 2010, 19:41
i don't know why you people seem to like France so much, its one of the most bourgeois and neoliberal and nationalist country in europe. and their president have so much god damn power almost more then obama.Well first of all I like the French people, not their government just as I love people and popular culture from the US and UK, but I do not like the governments and ruling classes.

Also, the French are hated in the US so it's fun to play into the stereotypes right-wingers have of France. but I do admire (am jealous of) the more openly combative attitude many French workers seem to display. I knew a guy from the LCR and when I would talk about American politics, his answer would most often be: "I don understan, if peble are an-gree, why don they jus organizee a sterike and fight for ze demands!".

Lastly, I just like a lot of French and English pop culture: french new-wave films (not their rock and roll however), British rock (not most of their films though).

Ravachol
1st January 2010, 21:24
If anything, revolution won't be brought through geopolitical interests. Russia 'financing revolutionaries' isn't gonna happen. And if they do, only to guarantee imperialist interests. Revolution is brought about through class war, not geopolitical poking and probing. Whilst I support the revolutionary projects in Latin America to a certain degree (which, I know, is rare for an Anarchist) I don't think they'll have much influence on class struggle in 'the west'. Class Composition and cultural hegemony are completely different here.

I actually fear the situation here in Western Europe is only going to get worse to the point where socio-technological control over society has reached near panopticon proportions. Although I see potential in the Greek insurrection and I think open class struggle will still exist in countries with a strong labor tradition (Ie. France, Spain) I think the project of Fortress Europe (which is not only aimed at external 'walls', but internal control as well) might result in something nightmarish. The 'upside' is that I think the frequencies of crisis occuring within Capitalism are going to increase rapidly, mainly because of two factors, one being Capital hitting it's limits for expansion more and more the other being high information incompleteness on it's own financial markets.

Wanted Man
1st January 2010, 21:37
Because it's not meant to be a serious prediction, just idle speculation.

And hmm, sorry, I suppose I'm not the best contributor, I usually just assume that because I don't post too frequently or have an avatar that no-one knows who I am so I don't worry too much about what I'm posting. I promise you my knowledge of marxism is fairly advanced, but I'm more of a reader than a poster and have a habit of not bothering to post if I expect someone else to say what I have to say. The result is a lot of the stuff I do post consists of fanciful ideas that I'm toying with only semi-seriously that tend to be outside the "normal" discourse of this forum. (which I tend to ignore, because someone else is going to say something similar anyway) I suppose that shows I don't have a lot invested in this forum, so there isn't much need for me to be in the commie club except that it's sometimes fun to read the latest dramas.

Nah, the reason I was wondering is that the CC doesn't exist anymore. It's just a technical error, and it's not your problem.

Jimmie Higgins
1st January 2010, 21:45
Ravachol,

I'd give you a "thanks" if this wasn't in chit-chat. I'm not sure if things are bound to get worse, but it appears that way considering the sate of the revolutionary left. I think for sure we can say that things right now are much more in flux for capitalist countries in any time since the end of the USSR if not since the 1970s. This makes it hard to anticipate how things will play out (which is hard enough as it is).

The one thing I disagree with is that uprisings in other regions don't impact the world-wide movement (as small as it is right now). The Zapatistas had a huge impact on people all over the world even though they were based mostly in a non-urban and remote region of Mexico. One of the things that has been sort of a recent barrier to radical politics is the sense of it not being viable anymore and so whenever people have rebelled in this "neo-liberal" period it has made a big impact just because the fact of working class rebellion itself undermines the myth of "the end of history and class conflict".

Ravachol
1st January 2010, 21:50
The one thing I disagree with is that uprisings in other regions don't impact the world-wide movement (as small as it is right now). The Zapatistas had a huge impact on people all over the world even though they were based mostly in a non-urban and remote region of Mexico. One of the things that has been sort of a recent barrier to radical politics is the sense of it not being viable anymore and so whenever people have rebelled in this "neo-liberal" period it has made a big impact just because the fact of working class rebellion itself undermines the myth of "the end of history and class conflict".

True, I agree fully. I'm carefull with resting all my hope in such a point of view however, it quickly leads to insurrectionism, disregarding the building-process of a constructive mass movement, which has been one of the major causes of the current state of the revolutionary left in Western Europe.

Still, I do agree the idea that acts of resistance in-themselves have an effect wider than the actual material resistance. Their symbolic value should not be dispelled. But this goes for the construction of alternatives in the here-and-now as well. By building a new society in the shell of the old, we give people a glimpse of the future. This is more difficult, however, than it sounds as practice has shown.