Spanish Civil War Discussion

[ls]

Niccolo is right in all fairness. Still, I can't help saying this..


very nice, me like.
your right btw, there have been threads before but i cant find them either on the moment.
anyway, like said in those threads i have an big international brigades three pointed star on my back with ¡No Pasarán! stenciled over/through it.
i'll see if i can dig up the pic somewhere.

Not impressed at all, counter-revolutionary tattooism at its finest.

[Sasha]

Not impressed at all, counter-revolutionary tattooism at its finest.

thanx, remind me to say that next time i visit the grave of my grandpa's brother who fell there on the front side by side with the CNT. or that one of his other brother who survived both the front in spain, the dutch resistance and bergen-belzen (only to leave his beloved communist party after the invasion of hungary).
damn counterrevolutionaries...

asshole...

[ls]

thanx, remind me to say that next time i visit the grave of my grandpa's brother who fell there on the front side by side with the CNT. or that one of his other brother who survived both the front in spain, the dutch resistance and bergen-belzen (only to leave his beloved communist party after the invasion of hungary).
damn counterrevolutionaries...

asshole...

They are still counter-revolutionary, whether or not they fought alongside the corrupted CNT is immaterial to that fact.

[Sasha]

i reccon your ivory tower comes with an built-in "shit on workers who actualy make an effort" toilet

[Le Libérer]

They are still counter-revolutionary, whether or not they fought alongside the corrupted CNT is immaterial to that fact.
Your comments to tattoos are reactionary.


i reccon your ivory tower comes with an built-in "shit on workers who actualy make an effort" toilet
:D :D :D

[Pogue]

They are still counter-revolutionary, whether or not they fought alongside the corrupted CNT is immaterial to that fact.

What the fuck? Is that all you can say about people who gave up everything to go fight fascism in Spain?

[An archist]

i reccon your ivory tower comes with an built-in "shit on workers who actualy make an effort" toilet
Damn, why is there no thanks function in chit-chat?

[Wanted Man]

They are still counter-revolutionary, whether or not they fought alongside the corrupted CNT is immaterial to that fact.

Err, yeah, fuck off. You try being part of a tiny percentage of brave workers who dare fight fascism abroad, only to lose their citizenship at the end of the war for "serving a foreign army". Then come back and tell us how these people were "objectively reactionary" or whatever shit you can think of. "Corrupted CNT" my ass. Is there anything good enough for you? I guess the fact that psycho's family fought in the Resistance is even worse. "Objectively serving imperialism" or whatever.

Again, fuck off. People like you are exactly what's wrong with the left: sneering assholes who can't do anything but denounce anyone according to intellectual biases.

[Sasha]

since i'm directly involved in this discussion maybe some other mod could clean up this thread of offtopic stuff again, than we can go further with posting pics.

[Tyrlop]

What the fuck is you're problem Is? :trotski:

[Honggweilo]

united three pointed star tattoo's front against sneering assholes

http://i50.tinypic.com/2rf3r5z.jpg

[ls]

I think there was another post which has been deleted or not added to this discussion (?). In either case the fact is that well-meaning workers who went to fight from all those countries, did it in practice for the counter-revolution, whether or not your relatives fought in a war should not bias your outlook on whether or not it was counter-revolutionary I'm afraid.


Err, yeah, fuck off. You try being part of a tiny percentage of brave workers who dare fight fascism abroad, only to lose their citizenship at the end of the war for "serving a foreign army". Then come back and tell us how these people were "objectively reactionary" or whatever shit you can think of. "Corrupted CNT" my ass. Is there anything good enough for you? I guess the fact that psycho's family fought in the Resistance is even worse. "Objectively serving imperialism" or whatever.

No it isn't "even worse", what are you talking about? It's your bias and the fact you think that any thing is good enough as long as it's against Fascists that should be put up for questioning.


Again, fuck off. People like you are exactly what's wrong with the left: sneering assholes who can't do anything but denounce anyone according to intellectual biases.

There is nothing intellectual about it. This is a war where large amounts of people died, it isn't some factional inter-party bullshit. Workers died fighting back against both the Fascists and the other reactionaries who wanted to control them, your ideas are a disservice to their memories.

[Honggweilo]

your brand of sectarianism is defined by calling rough circles squares

[ls]

In what way were the international brigades a "rough circle"? You don't think they had specific politics? The anarchists directly involved in government and those that overtly supported the government are just as guilty as anyone else (if not more so, they should've known better) so it is not really "sectarian", it's about the correct line, which can never be a concession to the forces of reaction that way.

[Niccolò Rossi]

ls, you put your foot in it again.

Firstly, we need to discuss this topic objectively. The amount of wishy-washy emotive arguments won't do.


thanx, remind me to say that next time i visit the grave of my grandpa's brother who fell there on the front side by side with the CNT. or that one of his other brother who survived both the front in spain, the dutch resistance and bergen-belzen (only to leave his beloved communist party after the invasion of hungary).
damn counterrevolutionaries...

asshole...

This is exactly what I'm talking about. There is no argument here, only an emotive non-argument. The fact that your family fought and died in the conflict doesn't change anything psycho. Of course, I'm not trying to be insensitive here, I'm trying to get to the bottom of a legitimate political debate and comments like these don't help.


They are still counter-revolutionary, whether or not they fought alongside the corrupted CNT is immaterial to that fact.

I think there is alot of ambiguity in this statement. I don't think it's helpful to call workers who died fighting on the side of the Republic 'counter-revolutionaries'. Was the republic and the political forces which fought in its defence objectively counter-revolutionary? Certainly. But these are two different things and they need to be distinguished.


i reccon your ivory tower comes with an built-in "shit on workers who actualy make an effort" toilet

The fact that these workers 'actually made an effort' has nothing to do with it. Workers make efforts defending all kinds of reactionary causes. This doesn't change anything. Again, this argument is a purely emotive one. If workers are involved in anti-abortion campaigns, or anti-immigrant campaigns etc. and are out 'making an effort', is it wrong to criticise these actions or does that constitute 'shitting on' the workers involved?

Same applies with Pogue's post (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1638164&postcount=6) and Wanted Man's (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1638363&postcount=8)

[Devrim]

Here is what I wrote last time Psycho was moralising about Spain:



dont be an unrespectfull dick, you cant call the volunteers of the international brigades reactionary puppets.

Why not? Objectively it is true. They were the tools of a 'Communist' Party, which was completely on the side of the bourgeoisie, played their part in putting down the workers' uprising in Barcelona in May 1937, and afterwards murdered revolutionaries.


these where brave workers

So were many fascists fighting on the Russian front in the Second World War. So what? Workers have died bravely for all sorts of causes. It is generally the working class who die in wars, and many of them are brave.


these where brave workers who wanted to do their thing to fight fascism in spain

People may want all sorts of things. That, however, does not stop them being used as puppets.


for example the rank and file of the dutch communist who went there where still heavy influenced by pannenkoek and other dutch left communists and cant be writen of as stalinist puppets.

They couldn't have been very influenced by them as the remenants of the German and Dutch council communists argued against support for the Republic in the war.


and yes, i have family who fought there and died at the front, so i take it as an personal insult.

I had a relative who fought in the Brigades too. It doesn't make what I say about them write, and neither does the fact that your relatives died make you right. Whether you take it as an insult or not is really besides the point.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/international-brigades-spain-t122417/index.html?p=1599215&highlight=spain#post1599215

Devrim

[Tyrlop]

ah goto hell all of you fascist systematisers.
there are a dozen of people here who either needs to get restricted or banned for a short period of time for supporting anti-workerism and fascism.
http://increvablesanarchistes.org/album_photo/phot1936_45/caricature_mussoliniPOUM.jpg

[ls]

ls, you put your foot in it again.

I think there is alot of ambiguity in this statement. I don't think it's helpful to call workers who died fighting on the side of the Republic 'counter-revolutionaries'. Was the republic and the political forces which fought in its defence objectively counter-revolutionary? Certainly. But these are two different things and they need to be distinguished.

Exactly what is ambiguous in
..the fact is that well-meaning workers who went to fight from all those countries, did it in practice for the counter-revolution, whether or not your relatives fought in a war should not bias your outlook on whether or not it was counter-revolutionary I'm afraid.People are well aware of what I mean, Wanted Man even replied before that post saying
I guess the fact that psycho's family fought in the Resistance is even worse. "Objectively serving imperialism" or whatever.

It's great that people who support fighting in the British army against the Nazis are posting in this thread too.

[Niccolò Rossi]

ah goto hell all of you fascist systematisers.
there are a dozen of people here who either needs to get restricted or banned for a short period of time for supporting anti-workerism and fascism.

Who are the fascist sympathisers in this thread Tyrlop? Who do you think should be restricted?

No one in this thread has been supporting fascism, unlike you claim.

[Ravachol]

No it isn't "even worse", what are you talking about? It's your bias and the fact you think that any thing is good enough as long as it's against Fascists that should be put up for questioning.


Regardless of any political or ideological position the whole thing is more of a military-tactical decision. I've stood side by side with liberals when confronting fascists and although I would never campaign with them broadly against fascism, since a campaign against fascism can only originate from class struggle, I was thankfull they were there. I'm sure it's nice and cosy reasoning about the correct line from a comfortable armchair, but when people join in to block a fascist march, stand their ground against a fascist mob about to burn down a jewish district or give their lives fighting their military hordes, are you going to dismiss them and say 'Nay, go from whence thou came thou foul reactionaries!'. Their logistic and military support to a cause is objectively striking at fascism and hence welcome. I've seen plenty of cases where liberals, even moderate conservatives have been politicised by antifascism to the point of becoming leftist themselves and supporting class struggle. Whilst I reject working with the Bourgoise and their organs and refuse to campaign on an 'anti-extremist' liberal platform together with the status quo, I am open to anyone supporting an antifascist campaign on a class struggle platform and I am open to comrades from whatever leftist tendency supporting this. As an anarchist I've worked together with Marxist-Leninists, Trotskyists and Maoists against fascism and all these people where dedicated and risked more than a scratch by doing so. Most importantly, none of them tried to 'hijack the movement' for their own goals. The only kind of movement I've seen doing that is the SWP and it's sister-partys. Your puritan approach, however much I respect the fact that you try to be consistent, isn't rooted in reality.



The fact that these workers 'actually made an effort' has nothing to do with it. Workers make efforts defending all kinds of reactionary causes. This doesn't change anything. Again, this argument is a purely emotive one. If workers are involved in anti-abortion campaigns, or anti-immigrant campaigns etc. and are out 'making an effort', is it wrong to criticise these actions or does that constitute 'shitting on' the workers involved?


Your line of reasoning is bent here. It isn't the fact that they made 'an effort' that counts, it is the fact that they contributed to the struggle against fascism. The goal of that broad campaign is obviously correct. Hence, any contribution to it that serves to further that cause, is objectively good as well.

[Niccolò Rossi]

Your line of reasoning is bent here. It isn't the fact that they made 'an effort' that counts, it is the fact that they contributed to the struggle against fascism. The goal of that broad campaign is obviously correct. Hence, any contribution to it that serves to further that cause, is objectively good as well.

There is nothing 'bent' about my reasoning. My post was made in response to the moralising of others posters who bagged ls for criticising the role played by 'brave anti-fascist workers'.

The goal of anti-fascism is not at all 'obviously correct' or 'objectively good' contrary to your claim. To borrow a slogan from the Bordigists, the worst product of fascism was anti-fascism.

[Ravachol]

There is nothing 'bent' about my reasoning. My post was made in response to the moralising of others posters who bagged ls for criticising the role played by 'brave anti-fascist workers'.

The goal of anti-fascism is not at all 'obviously correct' or 'objectively good' contrary to your claim. To borrow a slogan from the Bordigists, the worst product of fascism was anti-fascism.

I've heard that before and I presume you mean anti-fascism in the narrow sense of antifascism for antifascism's sake instead of antifascism as an integral part of class struggle. I cannot see what is wrong with the latter, I'm sure you agree with me fascism needs to be opposed and fought wherever it rears it's ugly anti-working class head?

[Niccolò Rossi]

I've heard that before and I presume you mean anti-fascism in the narrow sense of antifascism for antifascism's sake instead of antifascism as an integral part of class struggle. I cannot see what is wrong with the latter, I'm sure you agree with me fascism needs to be opposed and fought wherever it rears it's ugly anti-working class head?

Yes, on this we do agree. However, fighting fascism as part of the class struggle against all factions of the bourgeoisie is completely apart from anti-fascism as it is historically understood and continued to be practiced today. The Spanish Civil was such an expression. None of the warring factions represented any choice for the working class.

[Kléber]

The defense of the Spanish Republic was a transitional anti fascist struggle, that was sabotaged by the Spanish liberals and social-democrats and to varying degrees also the PCE, CNT/FAI and POUM by their adherence to the conciliationist politics of the Popular Front. The leaders of those three parties are the real counter-revolutionaries in need of criticism.

Communists should recognize that the Republic was a capitalist government, but we also have to notice the difference between, on the one hand, a coalition formed on the basis of wiping out the liberal and working-class parties, and on the other hand, a coalition of the latter formed for their own preservation. We should blame ourselves as Trotskyists for not having a pure working-class struggle for people to join instead of calling workers "counter-revolutionaries" simply because they wanted to be in the anti-fascist vanguard. And how is an international brigadier shot for political deviations by the Stalinist commissar a "counter-revolutionary?"