Roman Empire and Christianity (moved from Film & Lit.)

[Angry Young Man]

I mean, if you could name one person who completely fucked up Western civilization until the 16-19th century... This guy could do just fine.

Speaking as a homosexual, I'm going to have to say Constantine.

But it's not only to do with reining in all the consequence-free buggery. Europe would have developed much faster without christianity, so there would have probably been voyages of discovery in the mid-C6th industrial capitalism by AD700, racism phasing out soon after, and, on this assumption, our counterpart selves in the parallel universe where Rome didn't go the way it did in this one would be living in more than 1000 years of commism.

[Il Medico]

Speaking as a homosexual, I'm going to have to say Constantine.

But it's not only to do with reining in all the consequence-free buggery. Europe would have developed much faster without christianity, so there would have probably been voyages of discovery in the mid-C6th industrial capitalism by AD700, racism phasing out soon after, and, on this assumption, our counterpart selves in the parallel universe where Rome didn't go the way it did in this one would be living in more than 1000 years of commism.
Christianity isn't why the Roman empire fell. Bad leadership and a weak army is why it fell. The Catholic church didn't help progression, but then again neither did any other religion around the world during that time. (ie China/India/The Arabic world didn't zoom ahead either, so the only way you could say that Christianity held back global progress is if the world was Europe, which it isn't)
Anyways, I agree with you about homosexuality, though Europe probably would have just converted to islam instead. (Which is no better from our perspective)

[Angry Young Man]

Islam might never have happened. Maybe, just maybe, we'd all worship fauns and drink wine and bugger all day in the forests. Apart from scientists and other people working to make everyone's life better.

[Il Medico]

Islam might never have happened. Maybe, just maybe, we'd all worship fauns and drink wine and bugger all day in the forests. Apart from scientists and other people working to make everyone's life better.
Mecca, the birth place of Islam was never under the Roman Empire. Even at its height:
http://wps.ablongman.com/wps/media/objects/262/268312/art/figures/KISH106.jpg
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9804/03/hajj.pilgrims/saudi.arabia.mecca.jpg

Plus, all religions, save Christianity (which was a favorite for persecution) were legal in the Roman Empire. Constantine really only made it legal with the Edict of Milan. It's didn't become the offical religion until the regin of Theodosius:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodosius_I

[lombas]

Plus, all religions, save Christianity (which was a favorite for persecution) were legal in the Roman Empire.

I cannot agree. All religions involved with human sacrifice were banned. Druids were banned. Relationship with Jews was, at times, uncomfortable. Also, while mystery cults like Cybele and Mithras are frequently mentioned, a Roman citizen was not supposed to go public about it. It was very shush-shush.

On the other hand, Christianity wasn't really "illegal" and persecution sporadic. Recent studies have shown great purges mentioned by church historians were in reality relatively minor and specifically local. The "great persecution" during the reign of Domitian affected, for instance, not that many believers and only on a very local scale - the emperor himself was probably not aware of it until after the facts (provided he was even aware of the existence of something as "the Christians" as a distinct religion).

[Il Medico]

I cannot agree. All religions involved with human sacrifice were banned. Druids were banned. Relationship with Jews was, at times, uncomfortable. Also, while mystery cults like Cybele and Mithras are frequently mentioned, a Roman citizen was not supposed to go public about it. It was very shush-shush.

On the other hand, Christianity wasn't really "illegal" and persecution sporadic. Recent studies have shown great purges mentioned by church historians were in reality relatively minor and specifically local. The "great persecution" during the reign of Domitian affected, for instance, not that many believers and only on a very local scale - the emperor himself was probably not aware of it until after the facts (provided he was even aware of the existence of something as "the Christians" as a distinct religion).
Well, you seem to have a bit better grasp of ancient Roman history than me, so I stand corrected.

[lombas]

Well, you seem to have a bit better grasp of ancient Roman history than me, so I stand corrected.

You're welcome. :)

Also, while Mecca was never part of the Roman empire, it is open to huge speculation if Islam would have "happened" without Christianity. So if the Roman empire had never walked the Jesus way, Europe's possible participation in the Dar as Salam would have been unlikely all the same.

[Angry Young Man]

With that in mind, if not Constantine, who is responsible for stopping people living like fauns?

[Il Medico]

With that in mind, if not Constantine, who is responsible for stopping people living like fauns?
To answer:

CIVILIZATION MUST BURN!!!!!!!!
http://media.gamespy.com/columns/image/article/649/649167/planetfargo-barbarians-at-the-gates-20050908031519619.jpg

[Plagueround]

With that in mind, if not Constantine, who is responsible for stopping people living like fauns?

What do you mean when you say, "like fauns?"

[Il Medico]

What do you mean when you say, "like fauns?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faun

[Plagueround]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faun

I'm well aware of what a faun is.

[Angry Young Man]

Bawdy drunkards in the forest

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Bawdy drunkards in the forest

I though centaurs were drunks and liked to bugger people?

Or maybe both do.

Anyhoo; on islam/rome.

If the Roman Empire had been stronger, when the Muslim Arabs advanced out of the Arabian Peninsular they would have been crushed, and become just another random barbarian incursion into the Empire that was defeated, and without Islam expanding into the Levant, Egypt, North Africa and Asia Minor, it is unlikely the caliphate would have had the resources to expand Eastward, into Sassanid Persia and beyond.