Mussolini was a socialist?

[Ovi]

Dumb title I know. I was searching for something to read about fascism and I found a quote from Mussolini, which obviously is also present of wikipedia: fascism..."would lead inexorably into state capitalism, which is nothing more nor less than state socialism turned on its head" (Address to the National Corporative Council (14 November 1933) and Senate Speech on the Bill Establishing the Corporations (abridged; 13 January 1934)). So did Mussolini consider his ideology similar to stalinism?

[Искра]

Mussolini was attracted to revolutionary unionism. He read Sorel.

[Hoggy_RS]

Until the day he died, Mussolini always considered himself a socialist(as this is the ideology he had started out with)

Throughout history you can see fascists/far right wingers considering themselves socialists from Strauss to the National Bolsheviks of today.

Misguided fools.

[ComradeRed22'91]

Yep. He was a socialist before he joined the military (i think) and then got kicked out, saying "You can not expell me because i am, and always be, a Socialist!" then he became anti-socialist.

[anticap]

The Doctrine of Fascism (http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/mussolini.htm) is overtly anti-socialist.

[Ravachol]

Mussolini started out as a disciple of Sorel and went on to be active in the National-Syndicalist movement. Basically, the broad socialist movement split over the issue whether or not to support WWI and the National-Syndicalist movement sprang from the 'socialists' who supported WWI, eventually leading to the introduction of ultra-nationalism in their circles leading to a desire for 'national unity' and the abandonment of class struggle alltogether. The result was National-Syndicalism, the prelude of fascism. It should ofcourse be obvious that national unity is opposed to the interests of syndicalism and class struggle is an integral part of it and hence National-Syndicalism is no real syndicalism. But alas, there you go.

[RadioRaheem84]

What is the major difference between national syndicalism/Italian Fascism and capitalism exactly? I mean in NS/Italian Fascism, the workers didn't really own the factory but "ran" it along with the owner through class cooperation? Grievances were to be addressed through different federal corporations that addressed the concerns of both workers and owners? So the state was a mediator? It seemed like all NS/Italian Fascism was was just forcing class antagonisms on people through brutal state force and then calling it "class cooperation". Since class struggle was replaced by national struggle, everyone doing their "part" as either, worker or owner, was in essence helping out the fascist state.

Sounds like forced capitalism masked under delusional nationalist rhetoric.

I hate this ideology more than I hate neo-liberalism. It makes absolutely no sense, and the only way it would even start to make sense is to rid yourself of all reason and live off of pure emotion. Never have I read such a lazy, nonsensical, and unstable ideology.

[anticap]

Read the Doctrine, it isn't very long. In essence, fascism is the deification of the nation.

Edit: On further thought, your depiction of fascist ideology did remind me of Joan Robinson's depiction of capitalist ideology (my bold):


The fundamental differences between Marxian and traditional orthodox economics are, first, that the orthodox economists accept the capitalist system as part of the eternal order of Nature, while Marx regards it as a passing phase in the transition from the feudal economy of the past to the socialist economy of the future. And, second, that the orthodox economists argue in terms of a harmony of interests between the various sections of the community, while Marx conceives of economic life in terms of a conflict of interests between owners of property who do no work and workers who own no property. These two points of difference are not unconnected -- for if the system is taken for granted and the shares of the various classes in the social product are determined by inexorable natural law, all interests unite in requiring an increase in the total to be divided. But if the possibility of changing the system is once admitted, those who hope to gain and those who fear to lose by the change are immediately ranged in opposite camps.

[RadioRaheem84]

Well class cooperation was all people were taught in the fifties and sixties as being the "free enterprise" system. They successfully extended "capitalism" to include workers, future capitalists, and the cooperation of different classes as the national well being.

There was a cartoon propaganda I saw not too long ago from as far back as 1948 that had a strangely sinister foreign looking man that was peddling "ism" tonic aka communism and John Q. Public stepped in to show the potential buyers how the national system of free enterprise solves class antagonisms and helps better a nation and in turn each class. It was pure 'harmony of interests' crap. Sounded largely fascist to me, capital F fascist.

[Red Dreadnought]

State Capitalism or Corporativism isn't Socialism (unless in the sense that Marx explain). Equating Fascism or Stalinism with a kind of Socialism (a society without classes etc...) is a mistification that they use to produce confusion at workers.

Mussolini once was a Socialist, a leader of Partito Socialista Italiano (PSI) and not moderate precisely. At the question I WW he passes to bourgueoise camp, supporting imperialist war. You can talk from him as a Socialist since it. It seems that MI5 plays a role in corrupting him.

What was at his mind? Was he honest socialist at PSI time? Or was he moved by ambition or dreams of power? We can know exacly.

[Red Dreadnought]

You can talk from him as a Socialist since it

Sorry, evidently I wanted to say "You can't talk from him like a Socialist since it".

[anticap]

Well class cooperation was all people were taught in the fifties and sixties as being the "free enterprise" system. They successfully extended "capitalism" to include workers, future capitalists, and the cooperation of different classes as the national well being.

Yeah, there's a good clip on YouTube of Chomsky mocking that notion of "harmony" between capitalist and worker, but I can't find it right now.


There was a cartoon propaganda I saw not too long ago from as far back as 1948 that had a strangely sinister foreign looking man that was peddling "ism" tonic aka communism and John Q. Public stepped in to show the potential buyers how the national system of free enterprise solves class antagonisms and helps better a nation and in turn each class. It was pure 'harmony of interests' crap. Sounded largely fascist to me, capital F fascist.

I did find that one:

KkXTd9v56LQ

:)

[#FF0000]

I think it's important to remember that "Socialism" is a broaaaaaaaaaaaad term, and can mean a ton of things. Mussolini was attracted to revolutionary syndicalism and that sort of thing. He may have been some kind of bizarre utopian socialist, but he was NEVER a Marxist.

[blake 3:17]

Going from the radical Left to the Right isn't it that unusual. The opposite occasionally occurs, but less often.


Read the Doctrine, it isn't very long. In essence, fascism is the deification of the nation.

Thanks for the link. I'll need to give it a proper read, but reading it quickly it is quite radical or at least radical sounding. Parts of the appendix read like some revolutionary Left manifestoes.

Mussolini was also bright and experienced enough to know how dangerous Gramsci was.

[syndicat]

Mussolini before World War I was in the left, direct-action oriented wing of the Italian Socialist Party, which was a Marxist party. He was especially popular among the youth wing, because of the militancy of his rhetoric.

As with the American IWW, there was a revolutionary union in Italy, a syndicalist union, the Italian Syndicalist Union (USI), in which both anarchists and Left-Socialists like Mussolini cooperated. That is, the more militant wing in the left of the Italian Socialist Party was syndicalist, as was the leftwing of the American Socialist Party in that era. the USI was formed in 1910 on the platform of the American IWW. It's initial national leadership were Left Socialists who followed Mussolini's direct action line.

However, in 1915 Italy entered World War 1, and Mussolini took a patriotic position. He tried to rationalize it in terms of his old rhetoric: "Heroic direct action has found bayonets" (a quote from Blanqui) and "Italy is a proletarian nation". The national leadership of the USI then declared in favor of the Italian side in the war, following Mussolini.

The anarchists of the UA (unione anarchica) then mobilized among the rank and file of the USI and at the 1916 congress they tossed out the pro-nationalist, pro-Mussolini leadership, who then went on to form a nationalist union (UIL -- Italian Labor Union). Some of these people were eventually part of the "left" of Italian fascism after the fascist party was formed.

In 1915 Mussolini wasn't yet a fascist, as his politics were evolving.

the USI thus continued on a revolutionary syndicalist course and fought for a proletarian revolution in Italy at the time of the massive occupation of the factories in 1920. the nationalist UIL succeeded in taking out of the USI only a small minority (about 10 percent of its membership in 1915). keep in mind that "syndicalism" means "unionism" in Italian so "nationalist syndicalism" means "nationalist unionism". This is not syndicalist as "syndicalism" is meant in English. syndicalism is a revolutionary, class struggle perspective.

[More Fire for the People]

He was a socialist until the middle of the 1910s.

[Misanthrope]

He edited a socialist newspaper and was a member of a socialist party before turning into an extreme Italian nationalist.

[Ravachol]

What is the major difference between national syndicalism/Italian Fascism and capitalism exactly? I mean in NS/Italian Fascism, the workers didn't really own the factory but "ran" it along with the owner through class cooperation?


National-Syndicalism is corporatist in nature. So it's closer to Social-Democracy which preaches class-cooperation as well than to free-market capitalism. The main difference with Social-Democracy is that the organisation of fascism is far more authoritarian than Social-Democracy. Secondly, under fascism (whether National-Syndicalist or National-Socialist corporatism) the state uses it's power over industry mainly to direct it towards goals set by the authoritarian state, in the interests of the elite running that state. So it depends on your definition of capitalism. If you define capitalism in 'utopian' terms, like libertarians do, coporatism obviously misses the free markets and such. If you define capitalism as being mainly centred around private ownership of the means of production, it's obviously capitalist. So to me, corporatism (social-democracy included) is capitalist but with a stronger focus on class-colaboration to guarantee 'national unity'.



I hate this ideology more than I hate neo-liberalism. It makes absolutely no sense, and the only way it would even start to make sense is to rid yourself of all reason and live off of pure emotion. Never have I read such a lazy, nonsensical, and unstable ideology.

And there you hit the core of fascism. It is, by all definitions, irrational. It deifies the nation-state and puts a great deal of emphasis upon emotional concepts like 'heroism','national unity','sacrifice',etc. Early fascists were explicitly anti-rational. They considered emotion as a genuine logic to base one's actions upon. The material forces behind fascism (whether most fascists knew about these or not is irrelevant) where very logical however and the result of rational social machinations which favored capital.

[Dimentio]

Dumb title I know. I was searching for something to read about fascism and I found a quote from Mussolini, which obviously is also present of wikipedia: fascism..."would lead inexorably into state capitalism, which is nothing more nor less than state socialism turned on its head" (Address to the National Corporative Council (14 November 1933) and Senate Speech on the Bill Establishing the Corporations (abridged; 13 January 1934)). So did Mussolini consider his ideology similar to stalinism?

Fascism originally began as a populist farmer's movement in Southern Italy which wanted better life-standard for peasants (in the late 1890's). Mussolini was ousted from the Socialist Party for his pro-war bullshit. The opportunist he was, he steered into the fascist movement which combined nationalism with demands on better conditions for peasants.

[Canadian Red]

From my understanding when Mussolini left the socialist party and created fascism he advocated "Heroic Capitalism"... Im not sure exactly what that means but needless to say its a form of Capitalism.

[RadioRaheem84]

Fascism originally began as a populist farmer's movement in Southern Italy which wanted better life-standard for peasants (in the late 1890's). Mussolini was ousted from the Socialist Party for his pro-war bullshit. The opportunist he was, he steered into the fascist movement which combined nationalism with demands on better conditions for peasants.

I assumed Italian Fascism was a modeled after Gabrielle D'Anunzio's siege of Fiume.