Majority of Eastern Germans Feel Life Better under Communism

[Bankotsu]

Homesick for a Dictatorship

Majority of Eastern Germans Feel Life Better under Communism

By Julia Bonstein

Glorification of the German Democratic Republic is on the rise two decades after the Berlin Wall fell. Young people and the better off are among those rebuffing criticism of East Germany as an "illegitimate state." In a new poll, more than half of former eastern Germans defend the GDR.

The life of Birger, a native of the state of Mecklenburg-West Pomerania in northeastern Germany, could read as an all-German success story. The Berlin Wall came down when he was 10. After graduating from high school, he studied economics and business administration in Hamburg, lived in India and South Africa, and eventually got a job with a company in the western German city of Duisburg.

Today Birger, 30, is planning a sailing trip in the Mediterranean. He isn't using his real name for this story, because he doesn't want it to be associated with the former East Germany, which he sees as "a label with negative connotations."

And yet Birger is sitting in a Hamburg cafe, defending the former communist country. "Most East German citizens had a nice life," he says. "I certainly don't think that it's better here." By "here," he means reunified Germany, which he subjects to questionable comparisons. "In the past there was the Stasi, and today (German Interior Minister Wolfgang) Schäuble -- or the GEZ (the fee collection center of Germany's public broadcasting institutions) -- are collecting information about us."

In Birger's opinion, there is no fundamental difference between dictatorship and freedom. "The people who live on the poverty line today also lack the freedom to travel."

Birger is by no means an uneducated young man. He is aware of the spying and repression that went on in the former East Germany, and, as he says, it was "not a good thing that people couldn't leave the country and many were oppressed." He is no fan of what he characterizes as contemptible nostalgia for the former East Germany. "I haven't erected a shrine to Spreewald pickles in my house," he says, referring to a snack that was part of a the East German identity. Nevertheless, he is quick to argue with those who would criticize the place his parents called home: "You can't say that the GDR was an illegitimate state, and that everything is fine today."

As an apologist for the former East German dictatorship, the young Mecklenburg native shares a majority view of people from eastern Germany.

Today, 20 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, 57 percent, or an absolute majority, of eastern Germans defend the former East Germany. "The GDR had more good sides than bad sides. There were some problems, but life was good there," say 49 percent of those polled. Eight percent of eastern Germans flatly oppose all criticism of their former home and agree with the statement: "The GDR had, for the most part, good sides. Life there was happier and better than in reunified Germany today."

These poll results, released last Friday in Berlin, reveal that glorification of the former East Germany has reached the center of society. Today, it is no longer merely the eternally nostalgic who mourn the loss of the GDR. "A new form of Ostalgie (nostalgia for the former GDR) has taken shape," says historian Stefan Wolle. "The yearning for the ideal world of the dictatorship goes well beyond former government officials." Even young people who had almost no experiences with the GDR are idealizing it today. "The value of their own history is at stake," says Wolle.

People are whitewashing the dictatorship, as if reproaching the state meant calling their own past into question. "Many eastern Germans perceive all criticism of the system as a personal attack," says political scientist Klaus Schroeder, 59, director of an institute at Berlin's Free University that studies the former communist state.

He warns against efforts to downplay the SED dictatorship by young people whose knowledge about the GDR is derived mainly from family conversations, and not as much from what they have learned in school. "Not even half of young people in eastern Germany describe the GDR as a dictatorship, and a majority believe the Stasi was a normal intelligence service," Schroeder concluded in a 2008 study of school students. "These young people cannot, and in fact have no desire to, recognize the dark sides of the GDR."

"Driven Out of Paradise"

Schroeder has made enemies with statements like these. He received more than 4,000 letters, some of them furious, in reaction to reporting on his study. The 30-year-old Birger also sent an e-mail to Schroeder.

The political scientist has now compiled a selection of typical letters to document the climate of opinion in which the GDR and unified Germany are discussed in eastern Germany. Some of the material gives a shocking insight into the thoughts of disappointed and angry citizens. "From today's perspective, I believe that we were driven out of paradise when the Wall came down," one person writes, and a 38-year-old man "thanks God" that he was able to experience living in the GDR, noting that it wasn't until after German reunification that he witnessed people who feared for their existence, beggars and homeless people.

Today's Germany is described as a "slave state" and a "dictatorship of capital," and some letter writers reject Germany for being, in their opinion, too capitalist or dictatorial, and certainly not democratic. Schroeder finds such statements alarming. "I am afraid that a majority of eastern Germans do not identify with the current sociopolitical system."

Many of the letter writers are either people who did not benefit from German reunification or those who prefer to live in the past. But they also include people like Thorsten Schön.

After 1989 Schön, a master craftsman from Stralsund, a city on the Baltic Sea, initially racked up one success after the next. Although he no longer owns the Porsche he bought after reunification, the lion skin rug he bought on a vacation trip to South Africa -- one of many overseas trips he has made in the past 20 years -- is still lying on his living room floor. "There's no doubt it: I've been fortunate," says the 51-year-old today. A major contract he scored during the period following reunification made it easier for Schön to start his own business. Today he has a clear view of the Strelasund sound from the window of his terraced house.


'People Lie and Cheat Everywhere Today'

Wall decorations from Bali decorate his living room, and a miniature version of the Statue of Liberty stands next to the DVD player. All the same, Schön sits on his sofa and rhapsodizes about the good old days in East Germany. "In the past, a campground was a place where people enjoyed their freedom together," he says. What he misses most today is "that feeling of companionship and solidarity."

The economy of scarcity, complete with barter transactions, was "more like a hobby." Does he have a Stasi file? "I'm not interested in that," says Schön. "Besides, it would be too disappointing."

His verdict on the GDR is clear: "As far as I'm concerned, what we had in those days was less of a dictatorship than what we have today." He wants to see equal wages and equal pensions for residents of the former East Germany. And when Schön starts to complain about unified Germany, his voice contains an element of self-satisfaction.

People lie and cheat everywhere today, he says, and today's injustices are simply perpetrated in a more cunning way than in the GDR, where starvation wages and slashed car tires were unheard of. Schön cannot offer any accounts of his own bad experiences in present-day Germany. "I'm better off today than I was before," he says, "but I am not more satisfied."

Schön's reasoning is less about cool logic than it is about settling scores. What makes him particularly dissatisfied is "the false picture of the East that the West is painting today." The GDR, he says, was "not an unjust state," but "my home, where my achievements were recognized." Schön doggedly repeats the story of how it took him years of hard work before starting his own business in 1989 -- before reunification, he is quick to add. "Those who worked hard were also able to do well for themselves in the GDR." This, he says, is one of the truths that are persistently denied on talk shows, when western Germans act "as if eastern Germans were all a little stupid and should still be falling to their knees today in gratitude for reunification." What exactly is there to celebrate, Schön asks himself?

"Rose-tinted memories are stronger than the statistics about people trying to escape and applications for exit visas, and even stronger than the files about killings at the Wall and unjust political sentences," says historian Wolle.
These are memories of people whose families were not persecuted and victimized in East Germany, of people like 30-year-old Birger, who says today: "If reunification hadn't happened, I would also have had a good life."

Life as a GDR Citizen

After completing his university degree, he says, he would undoubtedly have accepted a "management position in some business enterprise," perhaps not unlike his father, who was the chairman of a farmers' collective. "The GDR played no role in the life of a GDR citizen," Birger concludes. This view is shared by his friends, all of them college-educated children of the former East Germany who were born in 1978. "Reunification or not," the group of friends recently concluded, it really makes no difference to them.

Without reunification, their travel destinations simply would have been Moscow and Prague, instead of London and Brussels. And the friend who is a government official in Mecklenburg today would probably have been a loyal party official in the GDR.

The young man expresses his views levelheadedly and with few words, although he looks slightly defiant at times, like when he says: "I know, what I'm telling you isn't all that interesting. The stories of victims are easier to tell."

Birger doesn't usually mention his origins. In Duisburg, where he works, hardly anyone knows that he is originally from East Germany. But on this afternoon, Birger is adamant about contradicting the "victors' writing of history." "In the public's perception, there are only victims and perpetrators. But the masses fall by the wayside."

This is someone who feels personally affected when Stasi terror and repression are mentioned. He is an academic who knows "that one cannot sanction the killings at the Berlin Wall." However, when it comes to the border guards' orders to shoot would-be escapees, he says: "If there is a big sign there, you shouldn't go there. It was completely negligent."

This brings up an old question once again: Did a real life exist in the midst of a sham? Downplaying the dictatorship is seen as the price people pay to preserve their self-respect. "People are defending their own lives," writes political scientist Schroeder, describing the tragedy of a divided country.

Translated from the German by Christopher Sultan.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,634122-2,00.html

[Bankotsu]

East Germans miss 'good life' of the GDR, says Honecker widow

BERLIN: East Germans are nostalgic for the "good life" they had under communism despite a propaganda campaign to discredit the German Democratic Republic (GDR), the widow of ex-GDR leader Erich Honecker says in a new video.

Margot Honecker, who has lived in Chile since 1992, is shown in the video celebrating the 60th anniversary of the founding of East Germany with former exiles who sought asylum in the GDR after the 1973 coup by Augusto Pinochet.

The group sings a patriotic East German song before Honecker, standing in front of the hammer and sickle of the GDR flag, gives a short speech in German.

"There is a huge amount of opposition in Germany right now to the GDR," she says. "There is no talk show, no film, no news program that doesn't try to discredit the GDR."

"But it isn't working," she adds. "Fifty percent of Germans (in the old East) say they have a worse life under capitalism, that they had a good life in the GDR. They can say what they want but people are thinking more and more about what they had in the German Democratic Republic."

Honecker, 82, warns that Chancellor Angela Merkel's new center-right coalition of conservatives and Free Democrats will hurt German workers, lead to rising unemployment and welfare cuts.

"People won't tolerate this. The signs are good. I am optimistic," she adds.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2009-11/06/content_8921589.htm

[Richard Nixon]

East Germany was actually one of the better-off communist nations so that's not too surprising that a lot of people agreed life was "good" there. But your title's misleading only 8% said life under communism is better than now.

[Bankotsu]

But your title's misleading only 8% said life under communism is better than now.

I am just following the headline from spiegel's article.

Majority of Eastern Germans Feel Life Better under Communism

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,634122-2,00.html


Where did you get that 8% figure?

[Nolan]

East Germany was actually one of the better-off communist nations so that's not too surprising that a lot of people agreed life was "good" there. But your title's misleading only 8% said life under communism is better than now.

Did you read the article?

[Number 16 Bus Shelter]

East Germany was actually one of the better-off communist nations so that's not too surprising that a lot of people agreed life was "good" there. But your title's misleading only 8% said life under communism is better than now.

Well in-fact.....

Today, 20 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, 57 percent, or an absolute majority, of eastern Germans defend the former East Germany. "The GDR had more good sides than bad sides. There were some problems, but life was good there," say 49 percent of those polled [...]

[Kayser_Soso]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,634122-2,00.html


Where did you get that 8% figure?

From his ass, where else?

[Richard Nixon]

I am just following the headline from spiegel's article.

Majority of Eastern Germans Feel Life Better under Communism

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,634122-2,00.html


Where did you get that 8% figure?


. Eight percent of eastern Germans flatly oppose all criticism of their former home and agree with the statement: "The GDR had, for the most part, good sides. Life there was happier and better than in reunified Germany today."



Well in-fact.....

That means they thought life in East Germany was all in all good but not necessrilly that it was better than now.

[danyboy27]

from my understanding, east german where quite happy for the full employement and the care the governement took into giving services to peoples, the camaraderies.

on the other hand they really hated that elitism of the party, the secret police, lack of political freedom.

east germans protested a fews times in the 50s and the 60s not to have east german dissolved but to have more freedom.

[IcarusAngel]

What does it even matter? Power was vested into the elite hands, making the dictatorship right-wing. Any system, even psuedo-socialism, that invests power into elite hands is right-wing. It doesn't really matter if it was a success or failure, and in this case it was a failure. In fact, I'd wager that the social democracies are closer to socialism because the private tyrannies were closer to monarchies than they were to advanced society.

[danyboy27]

What does it even matter? Power was vested into the elite hands, making the dictatorship right-wing. Any system, even psuedo-socialism, that invests power into elite hands is right-wing. It doesn't really matter if it was a success or failure, and in this case it was a failure. In fact, I'd wager that the social democracies are closer to socialism because the private tyrannies were closer to monarchies than they were to advanced society.

wait wait..are you suggesting that even the soviet union was somehow right-wing beccause the elite had better appartement better food and better service?

i like thay :D

[LeninBalls]

That means they thought life in East Germany was all in all good but not necessrilly that it was better than now.

Are you blind?

Quote:. Eight percent of eastern Germans flatly oppose all criticism of their former home and agree with the statement: "The GDR had, for the most part, good sides. Life there was happier and better than in reunified Germany today."

[Kayser_Soso]

What does it even matter? Power was vested into the elite hands, making the dictatorship right-wing. Any system, even psuedo-socialism, that invests power into elite hands is right-wing. It doesn't really matter if it was a success or failure, and in this case it was a failure. In fact, I'd wager that the social democracies are closer to socialism because the private tyrannies were closer to monarchies than they were to advanced society.

People who actually lived in the USSR, and people like me who see what is left, would disagree that it was the same thing.

[Bud Struggle]

People who actually lived in the USSR, and people like me who see what is left, would disagree that it was the same thing.

I've been to the Soviet Union a number of times--and the real difference between it and the Russia of today was--fear. You really had to watch what you said and who you said it to and you couldn't trust anyone. It was a difficult life in that respect.

[Kayser_Soso]

I've been to the Soviet Union a number of times--and the real difference between it and the Russia of today was--fear. You really had to watch what you said and who you said it to and you couldn't trust anyone. It was a difficult life in that respect.

You think THAT was bad? It's far worse today. Now aside from the fear of getting killed or raped by a cop, there is the fear of starvation, illness, etc.

[Bud Struggle]

You think THAT was bad? It's far worse today. Now aside from the fear of getting killed or raped by a cop, there is the fear of starvation, illness, etc.

I understand--at least then there was "order." There was crime--but nothing close to what it is now, and there were certainly no Naziesque gangs of hoodlems running around like now.

But still, would you want such a controled life? You couldn't go where you wanted, you couldn't leave the country. You had to think what the government wanted or you would be punished.

An aside: I don't know if it's still this way--but in the USSR American $10 bills were worth their weight in gold.

[danyboy27]

its just sad to see people thinking about the good old day when all had to worry about was their neighbor framing them to the stasi for some mundaine infractions.

those people deserve better than an authoritarian nanny or a cruel free market society.

there is way more possibilities than those 2 horribles systems.
those who really want to go back or continue with the current systems are insanes.

[Drace]

But still, would you want such a controled life? You couldn't go where you wanted, you couldn't leave the country. You had to think what the government wanted or you would be punished.

Your saying that as if every person was assigned a personal spy.

[Bud Struggle]

its just sad to see people thinking about the good old day when all had to worry about was their neighbor framing them to the stasi for some mundaine infractions.

those people deserve better than an authoritarian nanny or a cruel free market society.

there is way more possibilities than those 2 horribles systems.
those who really want to go back or continue with the current systems are insanes.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:



Your saying that as if every person was assigned a personal spy.

In a way--they were. Because you never knew who the spys were so you never knew who your friends were. Maybe one person in 10, 100, 1000, 10.000 were spys. But the way the system was set up you never knew who they were so you went on the suspicion that EVERYONE was a spy. You never knew who your friends were, you were never quite sure.

Living with not knowing who was for real and who wasn't was a painful and difficult way to live.

[danyboy27]

Your saying that as if every person was assigned a personal spy.

that was the stasi man, the biggest network of informant and spy in the world.
they recruted everybody on the fly.

anyway here is a gift for the nostalgics. it should be well resided to be used has a wallpaper

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c235/spetznaz21/specialforcescolor.jpg

[rednordman]

To be fair, one can defend the GDR without actually preferring it. This line I can actually understand from former citizens. Its strikes me as a little bit patrionising to these people that 1) They are contantly getting it rubbed in there faces by international leaders of 'how lucky they are to be living these perfect times'. It is true that there was severe repression (this is in reference to labour camps and torture), But, This didnt actually happen to every single citizen. Why should the whole population of the former GDR be muted out in favour of the victims testimonies? Of course their testimonies should be respected and heard, but this does not exactly define the state or tell the whole story. The former citizens should be given the right to state both the good and the bad, without fear of ridicule and persercution.

Also when things are going badly, it dosent help to be told to shut up, just because things may be better now. This didnt go down well in the GDR, and dosent go down well now either.

I very much doubt that people will take the same stance about Pinochets Chile for example (it seems to get more praise than critisism due to it being a libertarian test ground).

and 2) The state is constantly ridiculed and labelled as a farce. Like it or not, people did actually achieve things within the GDR. Some people got a good education and job afterwards. Why is it totally fair to completly void it? Just because they assumed the west german education system (and subsequently workers) as superior.

I know for certain that alot of people lost their jobs but also found it very hard to get on after reunification, because the FGR didnt recognise their qualifications, or simply saw it as being worth nothing because of the nature of the state.

So yes, I can understand people being a little bit bitter about the manner of reunification, whether they liked the GDR or hated it. Just because one may have been raised in the GDR, does it make them any less a german than someone from the west?

[danyboy27]

To be fair, one can defend the GDR without actually preferring it. This line I can actually understand from former citizens. Its strikes me as a little bit patrionising to these people that 1) They are contantly getting it rubbed in there faces by international leaders of 'how lucky they are to be living these perfect times'. It is true that there was severe repression (this is in reference to labour camps and torture), But, This didnt actually happen to every single citizen. Why should the whole population of the former GDR be muted out in favour of the victims testimonies? Of course their testimonies should be respected and heard, but this does not exactly define the state or tell the whole story. The former citizens should be given the right to state both the good and the bad, without fear of ridicule and persercution.

Also when things are going badly, it dosent help to be told to shut up, just because things may be better now. This didnt go down well in the GDR, and dosent go down well now either.

I very much doubt that people will take the same stance about Pinochets Chile for example (it seems to get more praise than critisism due to it being a libertarian test ground).

and 2) The state is constantly ridiculed and labelled as a farce. Like it or not, people did actually achieve things within the GDR. Some people got a good education and job afterwards. Why is it totally fair to completly void it? Just because they assumed the west german education system (and subsequently workers) as superior.

I know for certain that alot of people lost their jobs but also found it very hard to get on after reunification, because the FGR didnt recognise their qualifications, or simply saw it as being worth nothing because of the nature of the state.

So yes, I can understand people being a little bit bitter about the manner of reunification, whether they liked the GDR or hated it. Just because one may have been raised in the GDR, does it make them any less a german than someone from the west?

we should definitively ridicule the DDR, the GDR and the USA.
you could measure the good and the bad of all those system during years, but bottom line, they are absolutly not what the people want.

Dictatorship, so called representative democracy, free market or governement controlled market, this is all bullshit.

we should be free. period.

[Bud Struggle]

To be fair, one can defend the GDR without actually preferring it. This line I can actually understand from former citizens.

Good post in general, but I bet you can ask the living citizens of the Third Reich and they will remember those days quite fondly, too.

[danyboy27]

Good post in general, but I bet you can ask the living citizens of the Third Reich and they will remember those days quite fondly, too.

sorry bud you cant really compare the DDR and the third reich. the amount of destruction and suffering that most german had to endure beccause of the third reich was just too intense for them to remember it has the good days.

[Bud Struggle]

sorry bud you cant really compare the DDR and the third reich. the amount of destruction and suffering that most german had to endure beccause of the third reich was just too intense for them to remember it has the good days.

No. I'm not comparing them. I'm just saying that people's memories soften over time and people tend to feel nostolgic for the good old days no matter what they were.

I think there are a good number of Germans that will feel mosty eyed for the good old days. As a matter of fact the whole Nazi movement that's going on in Euope right now is just that.

And for what it's worth the retro Fascist movement is much larger than the retro Communism movement.

[rednordman]

Good post in general, but I bet you can ask the living citizens of the Third Reich and they will remember those days quite fondly, too.Its a very dark thing to ponder over, but you are correct there. If you take away the horrific ideals of nazism, I can understand how one may be fond of those times. After all, the country had recovered from the awful depression and things may have seemed to be working again. For some of them, it probably wasnt that difficult to turn a blind eye to the awful persecution of various peoples also (it wasnt their problem-a far-right persective may say).

I dont agree with them, but still respect their opinions. If only to get some kind of catharsis and comprehension as to how Nazi germany happened and almost took over the whole of Europe.

[rednordman]

sorry bud you cant really compare the DDR and the third reich. the amount of destruction and suffering that most german had to endure beccause of the third reich was just too intense for them to remember it has the good days.It is true that you cannot compare the two, but will admit to seeing documentories where alot of old germans did indeed talk about these times with rose tinted specs. I dont think it had much to do with the ideology, but more to do with the fact that they where invading most of europe at the time.

[danyboy27]

It is true that you cannot compare the two, but will admit to seeing documentories where alot of old germans did indeed talk about these times with rose tinted specs. I dont think it had much to do with the ideology, but more to do with the fact that they where invading most of europe at the time.

and then you start talking about brittish RAF bombing the shit out of berlin in the middle of the night and they decide to talk about something else.

[Richard Nixon]

Are you blind?

Quote:. Eight percent of eastern Germans flatly oppose all criticism of their former home and agree with the statement: "The GDR had, for the most part, good sides. Life there was happier and better than in reunified Germany today."


And that's EIGHT percent of East Germans.

[Drace]

And that's EIGHT percent of East Germans.
Today, 20 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, 57 percent, or an absolute majority, of eastern Germans defend the former East Germany. "The GDR had more good sides than bad sides. There were some problems, but life was good there," say 49 percent of those polled.

[Richard Nixon]

Today, 20 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, 57 percent, or an absolute majority, of eastern Germans defend the former East Germany. "The GDR had more good sides than bad sides. There were some problems, but life was good there," say 49 percent of those polled.

That means they thought the life was fine but they didn't say that it's better than now. Geez I've already said that twice.

[LeninBalls]

That means they thought life in East Germany was all in all good but not necessrilly that it was better than now.

You posted the quote I quoted, and said "they thought life in East Germany was all in all good but not necessrilly that it was better than now." And I again quote ""The GDR had, for the most part, good sides. Life there was happier and better than in reunified Germany today.""

You didn't mention anything about percentages (which even then assuming that 57% think today is better than then is bullshit).

[danyboy27]

does someone know the exact question of that survey?

[mykittyhasaboner]

Richard Nixon, (I feel like I'm about to write to the actual jackass that went by that name when I type it :lol:...anyway)

why can't you just accept that most Germans who formerly lived in the GDR think that their lives were better or easier than today?

Surely it doesn't take much though to realize the kind of hardships that working people have to deal with in today's economically strained and convoluted world. For the most part things like generous pensions, guaranteed employment, gender equality, affordable cost of living would be welcomed by any society. Today it's these kind of things (cost of living, inequality, unemployment) people struggle with most--but these problems practically didn't exist in the GDR. It should be no wonder why people think it was better. On that note, Germans are now reading Marx or than ever, or in recent history at least. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7679758.stm) So you can't say it's just ridiculous nostalgia for the past, when people are actually interested in how the capitalist system works; probably because they want to get rid of it.

Now I would love to read your argument on how life for most Germans is better now than it was in the GDR. It would be kind of hard to do such a thing, on rational terms though.

[Richard Nixon]

You posted the quote I quoted, and said "they thought life in East Germany was all in all good but not necessrilly that it was better than now." And I again quote ""The GDR had, for the most part, good sides. Life there was happier and better than in reunified Germany today.""

You didn't mention anything about percentages (which even then assuming that 57% think today is better than then is bullshit).


Look at what it actually says:


Today, 20 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, 57 percent, or an absolute majority, of eastern Germans defend the former East Germany. "The GDR had more good sides than bad sides. There were some problems, but life was good there," say 49 percent of those polled. Eight percent of eastern Germans flatly oppose all criticism of their former home and agree with the statement: "The GDR had, for the most part, good sides. Life there was happier and better than in reunified Germany today."

It says the majority of Germans think life in East Germany was good though with problems but only eight percent think it's better than now.

[Kayser_Soso]

It says the majority of Germans think life in East Germany was good though with problems but only eight percent think it's better than now.

Even still this is nothing as the Western media would like East Germany to be portrayed.

[Bud Struggle]

Even still this is nothing as the Western media would like East Germany to be portrayed.

But it was a police state. I don't think anyone could argue with that. Safe? Secure? Some goods and services-sure.

But a police state, no freedom of speech, no freedom of the press. Some people like to live in a cacoon, and that's fine for them--but it's not good.

People need and derserve freedom--no matter what the masses may like. I'm sure you would have found many former Black slaves the liked things better before the Civil War--what of it?

[anticap]

East Germany was actually one of the better-off communist [sic] nations so that's not too surprising that a lot of people agreed life was "good" there.

In fact the people of the rest of the former Eastern Bloc are even less enthusiastic about free-market capitalism.

[danyboy27]

In fact the people of the rest of the former Eastern Bloc are even less enthusiastic about free-market capitalism.

then again if you think going back to those system is a good thing you have no brain.

People deserve freedom. being nostalgic about authoritarism is not really the way to get it.

[Nolan]

In fact the people of the rest of the former Eastern Bloc are even less enthusiastic about free-market capitalism.

That's why I think much of Eastern Europe is prone to fascism. Many fascist groups have strong anti-capitalist rhetoric.

[Richard Nixon]

That's why I think much of Eastern Europe is prone to fascism. Many fascist groups have strong anti-capitalist rhetoric.

That's pretty true-the Nazis were National Socialists after all.

[Nolan]

That's pretty true-the Nazis were National Socialists after all.

Not sure what you mean by that.

But Eastern Europe is ripe for Fascism - people are becoming more and more dissatisfied with Capitalism, but they still don't trust Marxism because they associate it with the dictatorships of the Eastern Bloc. An increasing number of people are turning to radical nationalism, and good ol' fashioned xenophobia for answers. After all, someone has to be to blame for the current crisis. Why not helpless minorities? But in the end any such movement will be pro-bourgeoisie.

[Kayser_Soso]

But it was a police state. I don't think anyone could argue with that. Safe? Secure? Some goods and services-sure.

But a police state, no freedom of speech, no freedom of the press. Some people like to live in a cacoon, and that's fine for them--but it's not good.

People need and derserve freedom--no matter what the masses may like. I'm sure you would have found many former Black slaves the liked things better before the Civil War--what of it?

Was the DDR a police state because it WANTED to be one? Did they just wake up today and decide that one in every ten or so people should work for the Stasi? Or might all that have had something to do with the fact that they were under constant threat from a militant West Germany backed by US dollars(you know, from that country that got rich off WWII without losing anything in return)? Could it have to do with years of documented sabotage, recruitment of spies, etc.? Could it have something to do with the fact that West Germany refused any attempt at reunification in the 50s? In fact had it not been for Truman and the Brits, Germany never would have been divided at all.

[danyboy27]

Was the DDR a police state because it WANTED to be one? Did they just wake up today and decide that one in every ten or so people should work for the Stasi? Or might all that have had something to do with the fact that they were under constant threat from a militant West Germany backed by US dollars(you know, from that country that got rich off WWII without losing anything in return)? Could it have to do with years of documented sabotage, recruitment of spies, etc.? Could it have something to do with the fact that West Germany refused any attempt at reunification in the 50s? In fact had it not been for Truman and the Brits, Germany never would have been divided at all.

well, germany was divided by the postam deal, you seem to ignore the responsability russia have in that particular situation.

i am not defending the allies here, but you cant just ignore the fact that half of europe was litteraly sold to the russian. To protect their interest the russian appointed people they liked, people they could rely on.

then again i am not defending the allies they done the same on their side.

Sabotage and espionnage was done by every side, before ww2, durring ww2 and after. this is again not an allies only issue.

everybody was an assole back them. then again what could you expect from authoritarism(russia) and petty elitism (allies)

[Kayser_Soso]

well, germany was divided by the postam deal, you seem to ignore the responsability russia have in that particular situation.

i am not defending the allies here, but you cant just ignore the fact that half of europe was litteraly sold to the russian. To protect their interest the russian appointed people they liked, people they could rely on.

then again i am not defending the allies they done the same on their side.

Sabotage and espionnage was done by every side, before ww2, durring ww2 and after. this is again not an allies only issue.

everybody was an assole back them. then again what could you expect from authoritarism(russia) and petty elitism (allies)


Germany was dıvıded at Potsdam but ıt was Stalın who offered a deal sımılar to that gıven to Austrıa- a neutral, unıfıed, unoccupıed Germany. Attempts to unıfy Germany from the Sovıet sıde contınued after Stalın's death as well, by Berıa before he was shot.

And no, the sabotage and espıonage was not equal on both sıdes. The East Bloc never dıd anythıng approachıng the level of brazeness carrıed out by the CIA or MI6. In fact ın the late 40s the Western Allıes were demandıng ınput ın Poland's future whıle denyıng the Communısts any say ın Italy or Greece.

[Kayser_Soso]

Not sure what you mean by that.

But Eastern Europe is ripe for Fascism - people are becoming more and more dissatisfied with Capitalism, but they still don't trust Marxism because they associate it with the dictatorships of the Eastern Bloc. An increasing number of people are turning to radical nationalism, and good ol' fashioned xenophobia for answers. After all, someone has to be to blame for the current crisis. Why not helpless minorities? But in the end any such movement will be pro-bourgeoisie.

Most people there know lıttle of what Marxısm ıs- but many look upon theır old revısıonıst states wıth prıde or nostalgıc affectıon. The Fascısm comes from decades of propaganda whereby the West turned Fascıst fıgures lıke Josef Tıso, Ante Pavelıc, Ferenc Szalası, A.A. Vlassov, Stepan Bandera, etc ınto heroıc 'freedom fıghters'.

[danyboy27]

Germany was dıvıded at Potsdam but ıt was Stalın who offered a deal sımılar to that gıven to Austrıa- a neutral, unıfıed, unoccupıed Germany. Attempts to unıfy Germany from the Sovıet sıde contınued after Stalın's death as well, by Berıa before he was shot.

And no, the sabotage and espıonage was not equal on both sıdes. The East Bloc never dıd anythıng approachıng the level of brazeness carrıed out by the CIA or MI6. In fact ın the late 40s the Western Allıes were demandıng ınput ın Poland's future whıle denyıng the Communısts any say ın Italy or Greece.

well, how do you quantify that? espionnage is not something that can easily measured. even tho we are aware of certain operation on both side, there is just so many things we dont know.

if you got comparative chart or anything like that i would be happy to see them.

[Blackice]

I am not sure but I think that there was something like this said by a citizen of former DDR: "I learned what communism is when they start to charge my electricity and water after the collapse of the wall of Berlin"

PS: I am not hundred per cent sure with the quote though, corrections are welcomed.

[Kayser_Soso]

well, how do you quantify that? espionnage is not something that can easily measured. even tho we are aware of certain operation on both side, there is just so many things we dont know.

if you got comparative chart or anything like that i would be happy to see them.

I invite you instead to read the relevant chapter in Killing Hope by William Blum. A little Communist bird told me that it can be found in PDF format for free via a torrent.

[A.J.]

I think the point about this article is the fact that the majority of East Germans still have a generally positive opinion of the former GDR despite all the relentless anti-GDR propaganda in contermporary Germany must mean a) the GDR wasn't that bad a place and/or b) life is pretty shit under capitalism.

Indeed, if the GDR was so bloody awful would the capitalist media wouldn't feel it necessary wage a propaganda war against it in the first place.

[Publius]

The article clearly states that only 8% of people thought life was better in East Germany than in the current German Republic. Stop being idiots. "Today, 20 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, 57 percent, or an absolute majority, of eastern Germans defend the former East Germany. "The GDR had more good sides than bad sides. There were some problems, but life was good there," say 49 percent of those polled. Eight percent of eastern Germans flatly oppose all criticism of their former home and agree with the statement: "The GDR had, for the most part, good sides. Life there was happier and better than in reunified Germany today." " 49% said "life was good" in East Germany, but only 8% said it was "happier and better" than life in current Germany. That means 92% of people who responded thought either that there was no difference between the two, or that West Germany is better.

[ComradeRed22'91]

"Today, 20 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, 57 percent, or an absolute majority, of eastern Germans defend the former East Germany. "The GDR had more good sides than bad sides.



They would not be compelled to say it was better if not placed in juxtaposition to the way it is now. it's important to note, as Comrade Fred Goldstein of Workers World pointed out, all the 'police state' stuff was done under the international tensions, such as the 24-hour threat of thermonuclear war. And in this case, the agressors were right next door. Long Live The DDR.

[ComradeRed22'91]

Has this place become so rampant with anarchabrats that a a defense of East Germany is in opposing ideologies?

[Yazman]

Its interesting that people defend these police states with the excuse of international tensions. If the Cold War made such measures necessary then how come west germany never took them?


Has this place become so rampant with anarchabrats that a a defense of East Germany is in opposing ideologies?

Goddamn, quit being so sectarian. Its in OI because an OIer created the topic!

[Kayser_Soso]

Its interesting that people defend these police states with the excuse of international tensions. If the Cold War made such measures necessary then how come west germany never took them?


West Germany had an advantageous position in terms of economics and resources. When a country is at a disadvantage security wise, it's security apparatus gets tighter.

[Bud Struggle]

West Germany had an advantageous position in terms of economics and resources. When a country is at a disadvantage security wise, it's security apparatus gets tighter.

No. Sorry.

There is no excuse for a Police State. Ever. Either people are free or they aren't. No Comarde should ever make excuses for restricting the freedoms or denying the rights of another Comrade.

There is no Communism without freedom. Without freedom it really isn't Communism anyway, is it? So why bother with it?

[Kayser_Soso]

No. Sorry.

There is no excuse for a Police State. Ever. Either people are free or they aren't. No Comarde should ever make excuses for restricting the freedoms or denying the rights of another Comrade.

There is no Communism without freedom. Without freedom it really isn't Communism anyway, is it? So why bother with it?


Tard reasoning.

[Bud Struggle]

Tard reasoning.


Right. So ever other post I read about Communism is freedom to to this and freedom to do that--but then when it comes to the realities of Communism it's "Support out Dear Comrade Kim Il Jong who upholds the highest ideals of Comradeship."

Sorry Comrade, either people are free or they are not--and if there is more freedom under Capitalism--then that's the WAY and if Communism could do better--then that's the path for me.

Communism has to do better than just reach into the old bag of excuses to prove itself as viable way for humanity to follow. Disassociate yourself from the past and make Communism viable to the disenfranchized of today. Bury Lenin, bury the avatars of long dead Commies.

People like you are doing the work of the Capitalists more than you could even believe.

[Kayser_Soso]

Right. So ever other post I read about Communism is freedom to to this and freedom to do that--but then when it comes to the realities of Communism it's "Support out Dear Comrade Kim Il Jong who upholds the highest ideals of Comradeship."

The "Dear Leader" is a revisionist and his cult of personality owes far more to the local culture than anything Marx ever wrote.



Sorry Comrade, either people are free or they are not--and if there is more freedom under Capitalism--then that's the WAY and if Communism could do better--then that's the path for me.

Free to do what exactly? A good portion of the world is not lucky enough to have the guaranteed freedom to eat- a right that does not exist in so many "enlightened" bourgeois constitutions. It was the constant sabotage, threats, and destruction wrought from outside which made extreme measures necessary. This should not be interpreted as a blanket justification. But it is basic logic that the more threatened a country is, the more they will go to extremes to defend themselves.

Look what happened to the US just because a couple of buildings were taken out. Now imagine if one day Canada and Mexico slap an embargo on the US, and with a host of powerful allies mobilize their armies and place them on the border.

[Bud Struggle]

The "Dear Leader" is a revisionist and his cult of personality owes far more to the local culture than anything Marx ever wrote. And the Communism you show here on RevLeft falls distinctly into that area. The East German Communism was a aftershock of German Nazism--the uniforms, the boots, the secret trials, the walls, the Gestapo (Stazi), the TERROR. Is that Communism? Is that what you want the future to be?


Free to do what exactly? A good portion of the world is not lucky enough to have the guaranteed freedom to eat- a right that does not exist in so many "enlightened" bourgeois constitutions. It was the constant sabotage, threats, and destruction wrought from outside which made extreme measures necessary. This should not be interpreted as a blanket justification. But it is basic logic that the more threatened a country is, the more they will go to extremes to defend themselves. That's just paranoid. And that's just what happened to East Germany. The West became more free and the East less--because the West was more honest with it's people--more Democratic. Really, as evil as the Capitalists may be--they at least play by their own rules.


Look what happened to the US just because a couple of buildings were taken out. Now imagine if one day Canada and Mexico slap an embargo on the US, and with a host of powerful allies mobilize their armies and place them on the border. And how 'bout if Martians land in Kansas?

The Communism of the past was a failure. LEARN THE LESSON and do better in the furure.

[Kayser_Soso]

And the Communism you show here on RevLeft falls distinctly into that area. The East German Communism was a aftershock of German Nazism--the uniforms, the boots, the secret trials, the walls, the TERROR. Is that Communism?

Ummm....no. Thanks for trying though.




That's just paranoid. And that's just what happened to East Germany. The West became more free and the East less--because the West was more honest with it's people--more Democratic. Really, as evil as the Capitalists may be--they at least play by their own rules.

Actually it's proven historical fact. Your ignorance remains your problem, not mine. If you want to see some documented examples of what tactics were used against the DDR, see William Blum's Killing Hope.

And as for democracy, Germany was divided because the West refused democracy. It was the Western allies, not the Soviets, who insisted on a divided Germany. The West Germans refused reunification and neutrality, and refused to have a referendum on the subject because they did not want to recognize the DDR. In fact South Vietnam and South Korea came about for similar reasons- mainly, the sabotage of referendums on unification.





The Communism of the past was a failure. LEARN THE LESSON and do better in the furure.

For your information, I view the DDR as revisionist and there would have been no necessity for it had it not been for the imperialist powers who wouldn't allow a neutral, unoccupied Germany.

[Nolan]

Its interesting that people defend these police states with the excuse of international tensions. If the Cold War made such measures necessary then how come west germany never took them?


I dont like the "two superpowers" model. I think it was more like a handful of countries resisting the global order.

[Kayser_Soso]

I dont like the "two superpowers" model. I think it was more like a handful of countries resisting the global order.

Actually, Struggle made a good point about learning lessons. The lesson is that Stalin was far too trusting of the Western allies, and the communists shouldn't have gone so easy on the European bourgeois after the war. Had they taken Greece, maybe a chunk of Italy, France, Belgium, etc., the Western countries would have turned towards the police state.

[Bud Struggle]

And as for democracy, Germany was divided because the West refused democracy. It was the Western allies, not the Soviets, who insisted on a divided Germany. The West Germans refused reunification and neutrality, and refused to have a referendum on the subject because they did not want to recognize the DDR. In fact South Vietnam and South Korea came about for similar reasons- mainly, the sabotage of referendums on unification. They lost we won--case closed.


For your information, I view the DDR as revisionist and there would have been no necessity for it had it not been for the imperialist powers who wouldn't allow a neutral, unoccupied Germany.
So they double lost.

Exactly what is your point then?

[Bud Struggle]

Actually, Struggle made a good point about learning lessons. The lesson is that Stalin was far too trusting of the Western allies, and the communists shouldn't have gone so easy on the European bourgeois after the war

Yup--got love that STALIN. Now that revolation is going to make Communism happen in the future. :lol:

[Nolan]

They lost we won--case closed.

Sweet argument bro :cool:

[Nolan]

Actually, Struggle made a good point about learning lessons. The lesson is that Stalin was far too trusting of the Western allies, and the communists shouldn't have gone so easy on the European bourgeois after the war. Had they taken Greece, maybe a chunk of Italy, France, Belgium, etc., the Western countries would have turned towards the police state.

I agree. The problem isn't that the USSR was imperialist, its that it wasnt aggressive enough. The bourgeois states were extremely aggressive. You have to fight fire with fire.

[RGacky3]

So they double lost.

Exactly what is your point then?

His point is that your opinions are not based on the facts. YOu can say "we one they lost" but that does'nt change the facts.


And as for democracy, Germany was divided because the West refused democracy. It was the Western allies, not the Soviets, who insisted on a divided Germany. The West Germans refused reunification and neutrality, and refused to have a referendum on the subject because they did not want to recognize the DDR. In fact South Vietnam and South Korea came about for similar reasons- mainly, the sabotage of referendums on unification.


That is actually what happend.

Now then I in no way shape or form support the any of hte leninist states, they were not socailist, and definately not communist, but still facst are facts.


The West became more free and the East less--because the West was more honest with it's people--more Democratic. Really, as evil as the Capitalists may be--they at least play by their own rules.

PLAY BY THEIR OWN RULES????? Are you freaking joking? Must I go through history?


Originally Posted by Bud Struggle http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1655462#post1655462)
No. Sorry.

There is no excuse for a Police State. Ever. Either people are free or they aren't. No Comarde should ever make excuses for restricting the freedoms or denying the rights of another Comrade.

There is no Communism without freedom. Without freedom it really isn't Communism anyway, is it? So why bother with it?
Tard reasoning.

Here I gotta agree with Bud, its not Tard reasoning, unless you show it to be, an argument against the capitalist powers is not an argument FOR the leninist powers, just because the US and Britain did a lot of bad stuff does'nt mean the USSR is ok.

YOu can't have communism or even real socialism without freedom, otherwise its not freaking socialism, thats the definition. So stop trying to defend people juts because they called themselves socailists.

[Bankotsu]

I am still disturbed by the fact that Chamberlain's plot to instigate a war between Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia is still till this day suppressed in the west.

It smacks of hypocrisy to me.

No movement in the west to expose that lie huh?

From time to time we still read such shameless crap like below in the west:


After Munich, Chamberlain was determined that Hitler would have no more easy victories, and when Germany invaded Poland in September 1939, Britain declared war on Germany...

http://mises.org/story/1450


A complete nonsense and falsification of the facts is still being propagated and misleading people.

Complete propaganda garbage.


It is a complete error to say, as most students of the period have said, that before 15 March the government was solidly appeasement and afterwards solidly resistant.

The Chamberlain group, after 17 March 1939, was just as partial to appeasement as before, perhaps more so, but it had to adopt a pretense of resistance to satisfy public opinion and keep a way open to wage the November election on either side of the issue...


The difference rested on the fact that the Chamberlain group hoped to permit Britain to escape from the necessity of fighting Germany by getting Russia to fight Germany. The Chamberlain group did not share the Milner Group’s naive belief in the possibility of three great power blocs standing side by side in peace. Lacking that belief, they preferred a German-Russian war to a British-German war.

And, having that preference, they differed from the Milner Group in their willingness to accept the partition of Poland by Germany. The Milner Group would have yielded parts of Poland to Germany if done by fair negotiation. The Chamberlain group was quite prepared to liquidate Poland entirely, if it could be presented to the British people in terms which they would accept without demanding war...

http://www.yamaguchy.netfirms.com/7897401/quigley/anglo_12b.html

[Sasha]

Tard reasoning.


keep it constructive, dont flame/spam, verbal warning

[A.J.]

wait a second.....

"police state" + Gender equality = Lots of Women in uniform! :tt1:

http://www.world-flags-symbols.com/_img_nations3/east_germany_coa.png

Totally awesome!!!!!:cool:

[Solzhenitsyn]

You think THAT was bad? It's far worse today. Now aside from the fear of getting killed or raped by a cop, there is the fear of starvation, illness, etc.

Life was so good in East Germany they actually had to build a border fence complete with mines and armed guards to keep people in:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Inner_german_border_diagram_1960s.png



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Inner_german_border_diagram_1960s.png (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Inner_german_border_diagram_1960s.png)

[Bright Banana Beard]

Life was so good in East Germany they actually had to build a border fence complete with mines and armed guards to keep people in:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Inner_german_border_diagram_1960s.png (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Inner_german_border_diagram_1960s.png)

You know this is actually a diagram, right?

Here it how it actually look like
http://districtgps.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/berlin_wall.jpg
Soldiers patrolling in the minefield!? Insane! By the way, the picture is taken in 1986.

Before the wall was constructed, both side able to freely cross between the borders. After the wall was set up, neither allowed to freely cross between the wall.

And secondly, East Germans can visits other socialist states as many time as they like, but 1 time every (depend on a state) years to visit capitalist countries. I had a Russian teacher who move to USA legally in 1950s. So, did the socialist states kept their people in? No.

[Solzhenitsyn]

You know this is actually a diagram, right?

Here it how it actually look like

That is the Berlin Wall not the Inner German Border. Here is a photograph:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/East_German_border_1962_full.jpg

Looks like a lovely place for a picnic does it not?

[Kayser_Soso]

Life was so good in East Germany they actually had to build a border fence complete with mines and armed guards to keep people in:[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/

Pretty funny how that wall wasn't even necessary until 1961 huh? Besides, the number of people who left Poland since it joined the EU in 2004 is equal or greater than the number of people who left the DDR in its entire existence. Far more people leave capitalist countries in droves every day.

[Solzhenitsyn]

Pretty funny how that wall wasn't even necessary until 1961 huh? Besides, the number of people who left Poland since it joined the EU in 2004 is equal or greater than the number of people who left the DDR in its entire existence. Far more people leave capitalist countries in droves every day.

Ah but as we've seen the people in the DDR (and all other Eastern bloc countries) weren't free to leave to the West (only to move to other Eastern-bloc countries even more fucked up than the DDR). Emigration from Soviet bloc country to another was rather unappealing for obvious reasons.

[Drace]

Ah but as we've seen the people in the DDR (and all other Eastern bloc countries) weren't free to leave to the West (only to move to other Eastern-bloc countries even more fucked up than the DDR). Emigration from Soviet bloc country to another was rather unappealing for obvious reasons.

So lets see. Your own hysteria is backed only by your own hysteria.

It is rather obvious why East Germans would leave to the West. The East was completely destroyed for a number of reasons.

1. It was 1/3-1/4 the size of the West since US, France, and Britain defied the Yalta conference and allied against the GDR. The GDR was rather created as a retaliation to the creation of the FRG.
2. It was devastated by the war.
3. It became responsible for paying the war reparations. It thus had to pay billions to the Soviets and the whole of its factories were taken as reparation. The result was a destruction of its industrial production.
4. The FRG had 3-4x the population of the GDR.
5. The US and the marshall plan greatly aided West Germany.
6. East Germany was subject to sabotage by the West.

Despite this, East Germany was able to make many gains.
So what you have is the West's destruction of the East but the blaming of communism for the poor living standards of the East.



The West was also able to offer East Germans better jobs, pay, and relocation for coming over to their side.

Now, just how many people did actually try to escape? A few thousand? How many of them were shot? A few hundred in the whole 3 decades of the wall?

And lets compare this to the US-Mexican border. I believe the statistic is thousands of Mexicans who cross the border EACH DAY? How many of these have died at their attempt?

Also, how many Haitians would love to cross over to Cuba in a similar manner?

And isn't Solzhenitsyn the fascist nut who said the USSR was responsible for the death of about 100 million people?

[Kayser_Soso]

Ah but as we've seen the people in the DDR (and all other Eastern bloc countries) weren't free to leave to the West (only to move to other Eastern-bloc countries even more fucked up than the DDR). Emigration from Soviet bloc country to another was rather unappealing for obvious reasons.

So basically your argument is based on reading the minds of the majority of Eastern Bloc citizens who never thought of leaving, and suggesting that they really did want to? The fact is, that tens of millions escape from "capitalist paradise" every year, some falling into literal slavery. This shows that under capitalism, for a few countries to "win", that is be livable, many countries must "lose". Because of capitalism, there are millions around the world who have little choice for survival other than submitting to the will of some capitalist in another country, or a life-risking journey to another country where they may lose their dignity, if not worse.

[Drace]

Also, the West banned the communist party and itself had secret police that raided communists and socialists!
They too suppressed the opposition!

[Solzhenitsyn]

Also, the West banned the communist party and itself had secret police that raided communists and socialists!
They too suppressed the opposition!

Nazi Germany had one Gestapo agent/informer for every 20,000 Germans
The Soviet Union had one NKVD/KGB agent/informer for every 4,000 citizens
The DDR had one Stasi agent/informer for every 66 East Germans.

Internal security surveillance was practiced on an unrivalled scale in the DDR. Even many apartment buildings had a labyrinth of secret passages and rooms purposely built for the Stasi to keep tabs on people.

[Nolan]

Nazi Germany had one Gestapo agent/informer for every 20,000 Germans
The Soviet Union had one NKVD/KGB agent/informer for every 4,000 citizens
The DDR had one agent/informer for every 66 East Germans.

Internal security surveillance was practiced on an unrivalled scale in the DDR. Even many apartment buildings had a labyrinth of secret passages and rooms purposely built for the Stasi to keep tabs on people.

Source please.

[Solzhenitsyn]

Source please.

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/k/koehler-stasi.html

[Kayser_Soso]

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/k/koehler-stasi.html


Gee, did they just decide to create the STASI for no reason? Or could there have been some kind of external threat that made it necessary?

[Solzhenitsyn]

Gee, did they just decide to create the STASI for no reason? Or could there have been some kind of external threat that made it necessary?

Because left to their own devices, the East Germans would have (and did before '61) fled to the FRG en masse leaving the DDR a depopulated wasteland.

[Drace]

Because left to their own devices, the East Germans would have (and did before '61) fled to the FRG en masse leaving the DDR a depopulated wasteland.

I already discussed this, and you ignored it...So I am just going to give you an article.

http://gowans.wordpress.com/2009/10/25/democracy-east-germany-and-the-berlin-wall/

[Nolan]

I already discussed this, and you ignored it...So I am just going to give you an article.

http://gowans.wordpress.com/2009/10/25/democracy-east-germany-and-the-berlin-wall/

Dammit Drace, get unrestricted!

Thank you.

[Red Commissar]

Their feeling is one of a longing for the social security net and simplicity. I know of a Czech who shares similar sentiments and I don't think this is all-together uncommon in Eastern Europe... but it's not so much a desire for "communism" as it was for social security. Talk to some of these people and you'll see they might hold some overly nationalistic views.

I think what also is at play among East Germans is that they don't like the revisionism going on from the German state to over-demonify the DDR (the former citizens seem to admit that the state was dictatorial, but draw a line) and stamping out things that were once familiar to them. The tensions over the demolition of the Palace of the Republic to make room for an old imperial palace is evidence of this.

[Drace]

Their feeling is one of a longing for the social security net and simplicity. I know of a Czech who shares similar sentiments and I don't think this is all-together uncommon in Eastern Europe... but it's not so much a desire for "communism" as it was for social security. Talk to some of these people and you'll see they might hold some overly nationalistic views. Still, it shows a different reality from the proposed "OMFG PEOPLE WERE SO SCARED TO SPEAK OUT ThAT THEY DIDNT GO OUTSIDE THEIR HOUSES. EVERYONE WAS STARVING!!!"
Even being nostalgic of the past shows a favorable view.


Dammit Drace, get unrestricted!As if I have the power to do so.

[Kayser_Soso]

Because left to their own devices, the East Germans would have (and did before '61) fled to the FRG en masse leaving the DDR a depopulated wasteland.

But they actually weren't. The wall was built not to stop some flood, but to prevent the deliberate head-hunting of certain key professionals.

[Kayser_Soso]

Their feeling is one of a longing for the social security net and simplicity. I know of a Czech who shares similar sentiments and I don't think this is all-together uncommon in Eastern Europe... but it's not so much a desire for "communism" as it was for social security. Talk to some of these people and you'll see they might hold some overly nationalistic views.

I think what also is at play among East Germans is that they don't like the revisionism going on from the German state to over-demonify the DDR (the former citizens seem to admit that the state was dictatorial, but draw a line) and stamping out things that were once familiar to them. The tensions over the demolition of the Palace of the Republic to make room for an old imperial palace is evidence of this.

This is more or less true. We often need to remember that these stories do not necessarily prove the success of 20th century socialism, but rather the failure of capitalism. People continue to flock from those countries in droves, because those who promised them the world in 89 did not deliver.

[gorillafuck]

Even being nostalgic of the past shows a favorable view.
No, it shows a dislike of the present. If the present is very bad then it's easier to ignore the bad things of the past.

[Nolan]

No, it shows a dislike of the present. If the present is very bad then it's easier to ignore the bad things of the past.

It means both for different people.

[bailey_187]

No, it shows a dislike of the present. If the present is very bad then it's easier to ignore the bad things of the past.

the "bad things" must no have bee too bad though in order to be able to forget them, right?
I mean, if the DDR was hell on earth and the people severly repressed and never had enough, surely that would be hard to forget and look back on with nostaligia?

[bailey_187]

Nazi Germany had one Gestapo agent/informer for every 20,000 Germans
The Soviet Union had one NKVD/KGB agent/informer for every 4,000 citizens
The DDR had one Stasi agent/informer for every 66 East Germans.

Internal security surveillance was practiced on an unrivalled scale in the DDR. Even many apartment buildings had a labyrinth of secret passages and rooms purposely built for the Stasi to keep tabs on people.

It may interest you to know that the amount spent per capita on policing was higher in the west. In DDR it was $225 per capita in 1989(Diedrich, T., H. Ehlert, and R.Wenzke - Im Dienste der Partei. Christoph Links Verlag:Berlin 1998), while spending in West Germany for policing per capita in the same year was $264(Statistishches Bundesamt. Statistishches Jahrburch der Bundesrepublik Duetschland. Metler-Poeschel Verlag: Stuttgart 1996).

The difference seems small at first, but if we can take into account the fact that border guards, which were basicaly soldiers were classed as police, while in West Germany they were not. We should also note the DDR figures include foreign espionage, while the West German figures do not as no one has access to these figures from the West as it was not annexed like the East.

[bailey_187]

Life was so good in East Germany they actually had to build a border fence complete with mines and armed guards to keep people in:


IIRC correctly, those who left/tried to leave were generaly people with good education with what could be described as pety-bourgeois jobs who were guarenteed better pay in the West e.g. doctors.

The DDR was, according to its constitution a Workers State. The state attempted ot act in the interests of workers. Now if pety-bourgeois types are leaving such as doctors, this lowers the living for the workers i.e. a lack of doctors when they get sick. The leaving of proffesionals, educated witht he surplus that the workers create was undermining the living standards of the workers. But maybe there was a better solution? Maybe the DDR should not have been created? I dont know.

Now obviously not all who left/tried to leave were petty-bourgeois and many workers did leave - often for family reasons or the very generois incentives for Easterners given by the West if they emigrated:
"In particular, the west German government provided working age east germans who moved to the west germany with significant amounts of money and other benefits in order to emigrate to West Germany (retireees were not given such incentives). For instance, free loans and other state assitance of up to 160,000 West German marks (about $100,000) were offered to each East german emigrant worker, along with an apartment and reimbursment for any property that they left behind in East Germany" - Austin Murphy The Triumph of Evil (European Academic Press; 2000) pg124
Even i could be convinced to leave for those kind of incentives!

[bailey_187]

East Germany had a more efficent economy - it started out at a disadvantage due to the reperations it owed to the USSR and refusal for the Western Sector to contribute to reperations payments and less resources people etc.

Some recent West German government estimates put the amount the USSR extratced in reperations and other payments to be a figure over 100 billion marks (Merkel, W. And S. Wahl. Das gesluenderte Deutschland. IWG: Bonn 1991).
The estmated 100 Billion worth of reparations taken from the East (Merkel, W. and S. Wahl. Das geluenderte Duetschland.IWG: Bonn 1991) had it been invested in the East German Economy, with East Germany's average 18% rate of return on investments(Naumann, G. and E. Truempler. Von Ulbricht zu Honecker. Dietz: Berlin 1990) ,would have compounded to give East Germans a per-capita income 15 times the level of West Germans (A. Murphy - The Triumph of Evil. European Academic Publishing (2000)

[Kayser_Soso]

No, it shows a dislike of the present. If the present is very bad then it's easier to ignore the bad things of the past.

The difference being, that East German society at least had a goal. On a long enough time line, and had the West's ability to hinder their society resided, living conditions would have risen considerably. What is the goal of capitalist society though? None- just keep working, keep your head down, and trust that the fat cats at the top will throw more crumbs to you if you're good.

[Nolan]

Nice FOX News tactics, Solzhenitzyn.

[rednordman]

This is more or less true. We often need to remember that these stories do not necessarily prove the success of 20th century socialism, but rather the failure of capitalism. People continue to flock from those countries in droves, because those who promised them the world in 89 did not deliver.Agreed, good post Gramsci. I think the way in which the restoration of capitalism was administered is without a doubt on of the most swept under the carpet tragidies in modern history. I think alot of people from those areas learnt very quickly that they had been done. When the saw the actual progress that capitalism was making, they must have been so disappointed. Its like, for years they had to deal with shortages and restritions, yet generally got what they needed to survive (if only to the minimal degree). When the wall came down, eventually things are avaliable in abundance, yet no one can afford to take advantage because they where all scanked badley by the new capitalists. To think that most people in the west, completely supported this and saw it as liberation...

[Bud Struggle]

FWIW. I was in East Germany. It was a police state. No food on the shelves of the supermarkets. Huge rooms with nothing in the middle and long lines to get anything to eat. A constant state of uncertainty over doing the "right" thing. Definitely a Big Brother mentality. Huxley got it right about East Germany.

No worry about being taken care of long term--but a constant state of worry about your next meal and more troubling--who is talking about you. Some good things to be sure, but certainly not an ideal life.

[Kayser_Soso]

FWIW. I was in East Germany. It was a police state. No food on the shelves of the supermarkets. Huge rooms with nothing in the middle and long lines to get anything to eat. A constant state of uncertainty over doing the "right" thing. Definitely a Big Brother mentality. Huxley got it right about East Germany.

No worry about being taken care of long term--but a constant state of worry about your next meal and more troubling--who is talking about you. Some good things to be sure, but certainly not an ideal life.

You seem to be confusing Huxley with George Orwell.

[bailey_187]

FWIW. I was in East Germany. It was a police state. No food on the shelves of the supermarkets. Huge rooms with nothing in the middle and long lines to get anything to eat. A constant state of uncertainty over doing the "right" thing. Definitely a Big Brother mentality. Huxley got it right about East Germany.

No worry about being taken care of long term--but a constant state of worry about your next meal and more troubling--who is talking about you. Some good things to be sure, but certainly not an ideal life.

Your opinion proves nothing. I know some people who were in the DDR and say the opposite.

[Bud Struggle]

Your opinion proves nothing. I know some people who were in the DDR and say the opposite.

The thing is: I saw if for myself. When I was younger I spent a lot of time touring Europe--and there was a palpable difference between the lives of people behind the Iron Curtain and those living outside it.

The Iron Curtain countries had a definite lack of personal political freedom that people in the West enjoyed. The "Communist" countries were without a doubt dictatorships and those dictators controled the political lives of their countrymen. It's not that much different in Cuba today (another country I've visited.)

To be clear--there are also many countries outside of the Communist system that are dictatorships and that control the political lives of their citizens, but that's not the subject of this discussion. For some reason Communist countries--or at least the ones that I visited (I've been through most of Communist Europe--though not Yugoslavia or Albania) were in most respects oppresive societies politically.

[Kayser_Soso]

The thing is: I saw if for myself. When I was younger I spent a lot of time touring Europe--and there was a palpable difference between the lives of people behind the Iron Curtain and those living outside it.

This is called anecdotal evidence. Or in more colloquial terms- worthless. A statistical survey is worth more than your personal impressions. The telling thing is that the DDR DID have a lot of problems, and yet many people still love it to this day.



The Iron Curtain countries had a definite lack of personal political freedom that people in the West enjoyed. The "Communist" countries were without a doubt dictatorships and those dictators controled the political lives of their countrymen. It's not that much different in Cuba today (another country I've visited.)

I'm getting very close to calling bullshit on your travel tales, since they always seem to be in virtually every existing socialist country. "Political freedom" in the West is largely worthless. You have freedom to choose between two predetermined, similar choices that lead to the same result every time. The US for example, might as well be a one party state.



To be clear--there are also many countries outside of the Communist system that are dictatorships and that control the political lives of their citizens, but that's not the subject of this discussion. For some reason Communist countries--or at least the ones that I visited (I've been through most of Communist Europe--though not Yugoslavia or Albania) were in most respects oppresive societies politically.

Care to explain how you managed to arrange this tour?

[Bud Struggle]

Care to explain how you managed to arrange this tour?

Every year from 1979 to 1993 (the year my daughter was born) I or I and my wife traveled through Europe, Asia and South America for one to two months each year.

I still travel--I just returned from two weeks in Bermuda. I made that announcement a couple of days ago in Reactionary Chat. FWIW my primary business is in Real Estate and it is for the most part a "mailbox" business--people send money to my mailbox and I don't have to be "doing things" to get paid so I have plenty of time off.

As for spending time in Eastern Europe--my background/ancestry is Eastern European. As far as Cuba goes it's 90 miles away from the Florida Keys and until George Bush stepped on my rights as an America citizen to travel anywhere I want it was just 5 1/2 hours by boat.

Listen, if you need to believe that East Germany and the USSR were worker's wonderlands with battalions of smiling workers all joyously singing the Internationale as they march off to the steel mills to fulfill some 5 year plan to make your understanding of Communism work--far it be from me to disabuse you of the idea. But up to now Communism has produced some pretty nasty countries with nasty living conditions for their workers--and I believe at least that if we don't come to terms with the mistakes of the past we are doomed to repeat them over and over again.

[Drace]

Every year from 1979 to 1993 (the year my daughter was born) I or I and my wife traveled through Europe, Asia and South America for one to two months each year.

Wow, if you visited during the Stalin times, you might of had a point. But the 1980s in Russia filled with completely bitter conditions and lack of personal freedom? Russia has only gotten worse.

[Kayser_Soso]

Every year from 1979 to 1993 (the year my daughter was born) I or I and my wife traveled through Europe, Asia and South America for one to two months each year.

I still travel--I just returned from two weeks in Bermuda. I made that announcement a couple of days ago in Reactionary Chat. FWIW my primary business is in Real Estate and it is for the most part a "mailbox" business--people send money to my mailbox and I don't have to be "doing things" to get paid so I have plenty of time off.

So you travel a lot. Still not bothering things.



As for spending time in Eastern Europe--my background/ancestry is Eastern European. As far as Cuba goes it's 90 miles away from the Florida Keys and until George Bush stepped on my rights as an America citizen to travel anywhere I want it was just 5 1/2 hours by boat.

Traveling all over the Eastern Bloc is a little bit more than being of "Eastern European ancestry".



Listen, if you need to believe that East Germany and the USSR were worker's wonderlands with battalions of smiling workers all joyously singing the Internationale as they march off to the steel mills to fulfill some 5 year plan to make your understanding of Communism work--far it be from me to disabuse you of the idea.

But I don't so that is a worthless strawman.



But up to now Communism has produced some pretty nasty countries with nasty living conditions for their workers--and I believe at least that if we don't come to terms with the mistakes of the past we are doomed to repeat them over and over again.

Looks like you got cause and effect backwards. Those conditions were brought about by capitalism, not Communism.

[Bud Struggle]

So you travel a lot. Still not bothering things. You asked the question.


Traveling all over the Eastern Bloc is a little bit more than being of "Eastern European ancestry". It made me interested.


Looks like you got cause and effect backwards. Those conditions were brought about by capitalism, not Communism.Well on that we'll have to disagree. But it was the Eastern european socialist states the fell--not the western European capitalist ones--and it is the winners that write the history books.

[Kayser_Soso]

You asked the question.

It made me interested.

Being interested doesn't get you past passport control, neither does "Eastern European descent." Last time I checked, "Eastern Europe" isn't a state.




Well on that we'll have to disagree. But it was the Eastern european socialist states the fell--not the western European capitalist ones--and it is the winners that write the history books.

Oh so you are then alleging that the states of Eastern Europe, in fact didn't privatize and become fully capitalist since 1989-91? Because this is what you would have to be claiming to blame the conditions of post-socialist Europe on socialism and not capitalism. Clearly you have cause and effect confusion.

[Bud Struggle]

Being interested doesn't get you past passport control, neither does "Eastern European descent." Last time I checked, "Eastern Europe" isn't a state. All you had to do was apply for a visa to most countries--they (almost) always gave them. Now travel was restricted to certain parts of cities and countries, etc. It was somewhat expensive--but that never was an issue for us. And there long waiting times--but that never was an issue, we went when they let us in.


Oh so you are then alleging that the states of Eastern Europe, in fact didn't privatize and become fully capitalist since 1989-91? Because this is what you would have to be claiming to blame the conditions of post-socialist Europe on socialism and not capitalism. Clearly you have cause and effect confusion. No I was saying that the countries were pretty bad when I visited them in the 80's. We gave up backpacking to harsh and difficult places when my daughter was born--so we haven't been back to those countries. Now we only go to warm exotic places where we get served fu-fu drinks by the pool. My guess though is that if those countries are nasty now--then it's just more of the same.

[Tablo]

Well on that we'll have to disagree. But it was the Eastern european socialist states the fell--not the western European capitalist ones--and it is the winners that write the history books.
Not like it helped that the Western states were pumped full of aid money from the US to keep them from joining the Eastern bloc.

[Bud Struggle]

Not like it helped that the Western states were pumped full of aid money from the US to keep them from joining the Eastern bloc.

I can't disagree--the Marshall Plan was a brilliant strategy to stop Soviet expansion in Europe. And FWIW the states that the Plan helped have and have had excellent and vibrant economies for the last 50 years.

[Kayser_Soso]

I can't disagree--the Marshall Plan was a brilliant strategy to stop Soviet expansion in Europe. And FWIW the states that the Plan helped have and have had excellent and vibrant economies for the last 50 years.

Actually what made it brilliant was purposely using the funds to blackmail populations in countries like Italy and France to control their political systems.

[Solzhenitsyn]

East Germany had a more efficent economy - it started out at a disadvantage due to the reperations it owed to the USSR and refusal for the Western Sector to contribute to reperations payments and less resources people etc.

Some recent West German government estimates put the amount the USSR extratced in reperations and other payments to be a figure over 100 billion marks (Merkel, W. And S. Wahl. Das gesluenderte Deutschland. IWG: Bonn 1991).
The estmated 100 Billion worth of reparations taken from the East (Merkel, W. and S. Wahl. Das geluenderte Duetschland.IWG: Bonn 1991) had it been invested in the East German Economy, with East Germany's average 18% rate of return on investments(Naumann, G. and E. Truempler. Von Ulbricht zu Honecker. Dietz: Berlin 1990) ,would have compounded to give East Germans a per-capita income 15 times the level of West Germans (A. Murphy - The Triumph of Evil. European Academic Publishing (2000)


What do you mean by the word investment precisely? The DDR was a command economy so there was no investment as commonly understood in a free market system. Are you seriously claiming the East German economy expanded an average of 18% a year? If so how do explain the DDR's inability to secure international loans from '75 to '85?

[Kayser_Soso]

What do you mean by the word investment precisely? The DDR was a command economy so there was no investment as commonly understood in a free market system. Are you seriously claiming the East German economy expanded an average of 18% a year? If so how do explain the DDR's inability to secure international loans from '75 to '85?

Dumbass, investment by the state is investment.

[Mindtoaster]

FWIW my primary business is in Real Estate and it is for the most part a "mailbox" business--people send money to my mailbox and I don't have to be "doing things" to get paid so I have plenty of time off.


What?

I thought you owned a factory in Florida. Or is that something you just do on the side.
:rolleyes:

[Solzhenitsyn]

Dumbass, investment by the state is investment.

There is no "investment" by the state, only expenditures.

[Kayser_Soso]

There is no "investment" by the state, only expenditures.


It is investment AND an expenditure.

[#FF0000]

There is no "investment" by the state, only expenditures.

hey guys whats economics i don't even


No I was saying that the countries were pretty bad when I visited them in the 80's. We gave up backpacking to harsh and difficult places when my daughter was born--so we haven't been back to those countries. Now we only go to warm exotic places where we get served fu-fu drinks by the pool. My guess though is that if those countries are nasty now--then it's just more of the same.

Well yeah but our point is that by the 80's, these countries could hardly even be called socialist anymore.