Does Socialism called for state ownership of the Means of production ? I found this f

[tradeunionsupporter]

Does Socialism called for state ownership of the Means of production ? I found this from the Communist Manifesto that says this.

Karl Marx and Frederick Engels

Manifesto
of the Communist Party
1848
II -- PROLETARIANS AND COMMUNISTS
These measures will, of course, be different in different countries.



Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.



5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.



6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.



7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.


http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html

I would like to know how would the Workers be owning the Means of production under Socialism if there is state ownership of the Means of production ?

[robbo203]

Does Socialism called for state ownership of the Means of production ? I found this from the Communist Manifesto that says this.

Karl Marx and Frederick Engels

Manifesto
of the Communist Party
1848
II -- PROLETARIANS AND COMMUNISTS
These measures will, of course, be different in different countries.



Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.



5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.



6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.



7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.


http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html

I would like to know how would the Workers be owning the Means of production under Socialism if there is state ownership of the Means of production ?


The important thing to note is that state ownership for Marx and Engels did not constitute socialism. Lenin's view was quite different. He called socialism a "state capitalist monopoly" run in the interests of the whole people. Marx and Engels views must not be confused with those of Lenin.

In the Communist Manifesto (1848) they did indeed call for the various reforms you cited. However if you read the subsequent prefaces to the Manifesto you will see that they more or less repudiated or downplayed what they had earlier suggested and said that no special stress should be placed on this part of the Manifesto.

Engels in particular gave a very succinct argument why state ownership has nothing to with socialism in his Socialism Utopian and Scientific


The modern state, no matter what its form, is essentially a capitalist machine, the state of the capitalists, the ideal personification of the total national capital. The more it proceeds to the taking over of the productive forces, the more does it actually become the national capitalist, the more citizens does it exploit. The workers remain wage workers - proletarians. The capitalist relationship is not done away with. It is rather brought to a head. But, brought to a head, it topples over. State ownership of productive forces is not the solution of the conflict, but concealed within it are the technical conditions that form the elements of that solution

Here you can see the underlying rationale for advocating state ownership - that it promoted large scale industry and hastened the development of the productive forces in "hothouse fashion" so bringing closer the possibility of a communist/socialist revolution. Since socialism/communism (they used these words interchangeably) was not possible without a well developed industrial infrastructure this was perhaps understandable (although I think questionable).

Today of course all this is completely redundant. There is absolutely no need to call for state ownership since the technological potential for a socialist/communist society has been around for literally decades. All that is lacking is the mass consciousness and desire to establish this form of society - a moneyless, wageless and indeed stateless commonwealth in which each would freely give according to their ability and take according to their needs

[Die Rote Fahne]

Marxism calls for the workers owning the means of production.

The state owning the means of production came about from Stalin and reformist China. Which developed into state capitalism.

[Mindtoaster]

Lenin's view was quite different. He called socialism a "state capitalist monopoly" run in the interests of the whole people.

Source, please?

I'm not completely dismissing you, I would just like to read from the source of that quote, if there is one.