The free market and infant mortality

[Nolan]

How should I respond when someone makes this argument:

" ...if you look at a list of countries ordered by infant mortality rates, and then a list of countries ordered by The Heritage Foundation’s index of economic freedom, the two lists are basically the reverse of each other.
So it seems that the more that “profit motive” is suppressed by the government, the more dead babies we get."


The conversation was about the death toll of capitalism, and this person suggested the capitalist system actually be credited for saving lives.



Sorry if this has been discussed before, but this and similar arguments seem to be recurring a lot recently in my debates.

[pastradamus]

How should I respond when someone makes this argument:

" ...if you look at a list of countries ordered by infant mortality rates, and then a list of countries ordered by The Heritage Foundation’s index of economic freedom, the two lists are basically the reverse of each other.
So it seems that the more that “profit motive” is suppressed by the government, the more dead babies we get."


The conversation was about the death toll of capitalism, and this person suggested the capitalist system actually be credited for saving lives.



Sorry if this has been discussed before, but this and similar arguments seem to be recurring a lot recently in my debates.

Well all you have to do is tell them that Cuba has a lower infant mortality Rate than the USA.
Obviously the more developed a state is than, obviously they will have better access to health care but here's an interesting stat for you:

deaths/1,000 live births: Cuba: 5.82
USA : 6.26

That information is supplied by the CIA world factbook and is roughly consistant with the UN's stats. So there you go my friend.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html

[Drace]

Infant mortality rates is a consequence of poverty.

It is profit motive that has exactly led to poverty. The case of Vietnam War goes perfectly. The US bombed the fuck out of Vietnam and dropped as much as 12 million tons of Agent Orange over Vietnam, a very dangerous chemical that causes infant deaths and birth defects.
North Korea is listed as the country with the least economic freedom but yet has a 48.2/1000 mortality rate, placing it 134 place out of 195.
Cuba is 177/179 on the economic freedom list, but yet 28/195 on the infant mortality list.

The data done for the Economic Freedom should be noted that it comes from a very right-wing source.


There is no direct connection between having economic freedom and infant mortality rates. He might as well have argued that countries with economic freedom have less poverty.

To say that all a country has to become rich like the United States is let free trade come about is ridiculous.

US corporations exploit the labor of third world countries.

[Nolan]

I'm sure that if 45,000 adults die each year from lack of health care, there are at least as many children that die.

[pastradamus]

Good post drace. I love this term "economic freedom". Who is the economy free for? Simply put: Large Multinationals, Big Business, Corporations and the bourgeois. The other 95% of the population must work and scavenge to reclaim a pitiful 10% of the pie - Whilst being forced to labour for the right to own some small share of a nations wealth.
Economic freedom under socialism on the other hand is when you are entitled to your share of the fruits of your own labour.

[Drace]

I'm sure that if 45,000 adults die each year from lack of health care, there are at least as many children that die. "According to UNICEF, 25,000 children die each day due to poverty."
That's 10 million deaths a year, and 100 million deaths in a decade! Such an unnecessary cause when today [/URL]there is more than enough food to feed the world. (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20227143.100-africa-alone-could-feed-the-world.html)

[url]http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20227143.100-africa-alone-could-feed-the-world.html
http://www.oxfam.org/en/pressroom/pressrelease/2009-10-16/world-food-day

Capitalism dominates the world yet the poor are getting poorer and the rich are getting richer. (http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/15/business/economic-scene-rich-get-rich-poor-get-poorer-right-let-s-take-another-look.html)


Good post drace. I love this term "economic freedom". Who is the economy free for? Simply put: Large Multinationals, Big Business, Corporations and the bourgeois.Good point. Currently 1% of the population 40% of the wealth.

I'm wondering of the specifics of how the study measured economic freedom.
If anything most third world countries are completely free of government regulation!
They have no minimum wage laws and no worker rights. This is why American corporations move to third world countries - to exploit their poverty and their labor, paying them $0.30 an hour, or less.

America did not get prosperous because of capitalism, but because of the fight against capitalism!
Labor unions, anti-capitalist struggles and strikes won workers many wage increases, the minimum wage and the 8 hour day.
If you want unregulated capitalism with all the economic freedom you want, go back to 19th century America.



(http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/15/business/economic-scene-rich-get-rich-poor-get-poorer-right-let-s-take-another-look.html)

[Nolan]

Capitalism dominates the world yet the poor are getting poorer and the rich are getting richer.



That link is attacking the idea that the poor are getting poorer. :confused:

[Drace]

Lol aha, I only read the first few lines.
Well search Google for your self.

[ComradeOm]

The conversation was about the death toll of capitalism, and this person suggested the capitalist system actually be credited for saving livesWhich is perfectly correct. Arguing about the figures is pointless because at best you'll only be able to produce an exception or two. The most developed capitalist nations in the world are indeed those with the lowest rates of infant mortality

The reason however is not the "free market" but rather a consequence of industrialisation. Industrialised nations (still largely limited to the West) tend have much lower infant mortality rates than those still dominated by agriculture. What you should be arguing is not the "free trade" angle (ludicrous when you consider that 3 out of the top 5 countries ranked by the UN are Scandinavian) but the structure of the global economy that allows the West to maintain its imperialist position

[Glenn Beck]

It's generally the most developed capitalist states that push for deregulation and free trade, the "index of economic freedom" is not an objective scientific standard but a politicized tool. Your opponent was confusing correlation with causation.

This is also a symptom of the rightist/libertarian fudging of all contrary positions into a Manichean struggle between "Liberty" and "Collectivism". A military dictatorship that implements protectionism, controls currency, has a nationalized corporation producing a major commodity, and engages in arbitrary land seizures is considered just as socialist as Cuba or (pick a socialist state).

This is the same ideological manipulation that says that Communism and Fascism are "twins".