Irish Republican community action.

[IrishWorker]

A man has been shot in the hands, ankles, knees and calves in west Belfast. The 24-year-old was attacked by four men in the Downfine Gardens area shortly after 2130 GMT on Thursday.
He suffered seven to eight gunshot wounds. However, police have said his injuries are not believed to be life-threatening.
SDLP Policing Board member Alex Attwood said he believed dissident republicans were behind the attack.
Police are trying to establish a motive and have appealed for witnesses to contact them.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8419851.stm

This hood terrorized working class communities in Belfast. He was involved in breaking into pensioners homes.

[Woyzeck]

This hood terrorized working class communities in Belfast. He was involved in breaking into pensioners homes.


Nevertheless he should be afforded the same democratic rights that most people are entitled to in developed capitalist societies, and have been won largely by the workers' movement through decades of bitter struggle. The word of the RIRA or CIRA on whom and who isn't a criminal isn't all that trustworthy in my book. If we accept that conditions have dramatically changed in relation to the viability of armed resistance to British rule then the same standards must be applied to crude street justice like punishment shootings and beatings. There are no more 'No Go' areas in Northern Ireland and there is an (albeit loose) leash on the loyalist police force. In short: times have changed.

[Hoggy_RS]

Jesus, thats a serious punishment.

[Andropov]

Nevertheless he should be afforded the same democratic rights that most people are entitled to in developed capitalist societies, and have been won largely by the workers' movement through decades of bitter struggle. The word of the RIRA or CIRA on whom and who isn't a criminal isn't all that trustworthy in my book. If we accept that conditions have dramatically changed in relation to the viability of armed resistance to British rule then the same standards must be applied to crude street justice like punishment shootings and beatings. There are no more 'No Go' areas in Northern Ireland and there is an (albeit loose) leash on the loyalist police force. In short: times have changed.
They have changed to an extent.
But the Colonial Constabulary are still not welcome in Nationalist Areas and it is commonly known that the Brits do use petty criminals in Nationalist Areas as touts, thus they are given an element of free reign within the community and so the community itself must remedy this situation.
TBH I think punishment beatings are counter productive, for every 2 doors they open now they will close 10 for ever.
A less barbaric way is needed to punish offenders IMO.

[Uncle Ho]

A man has been shot in the hands, ankles, knees and calves in west Belfast. The 24-year-old was attacked by four men in the Downfine Gardens area shortly after 2130 GMT on Thursday.
He suffered seven to eight gunshot wounds. However, police have said his injuries are not believed to be life-threatening.
SDLP Policing Board member Alex Attwood said he believed dissident republicans were behind the attack.
Police are trying to establish a motive and have appealed for witnesses to contact them.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8419851.stm

This hood terrorized working class communities in Belfast. He was involved in breaking into pensioners homes.


I applaud taking actions to protect your communities, but don't you think this punishment was a bit harsh?

[Spawn of Stalin]

Yeah they could've just beat the guy up. I shed no tears for him as he is a blatant thug and an enemy of the working class, but I don't think shooting him in all those places was really necessary.

[IrishWorker]

I applaud taking actions to protect your communities, but don't you think this punishment was a bit harsh?
He broke into old peoples houses in Belfast robbed and beat them.
Personally I think the days of the punishment shooting are over but I do believe there should be exceptions.
I certainly won’t be shedding any tears for this criminal.

Some of the problems encountered with punishment beatings and shootings are innocent people do sometimes end up on the wrong end of a baseball bat or a gun not often but it did/dose happen along with the fact that every time Republicans shoot or beat someone they alienate that persons entire extended family and friends from ever supporting the struggle.
An interesting thing about the whole punishment attacks debate is that during the latest phase of armed revolution in Ireland Republicans and Republican Socialists have shot thousands of members of our own community since 1969 and indeed Loyalists have done the same for petty crime drugs etc but very few people have ever been arrested charged or interned for a punishment attack if the British had have wanted to prevent the PIRA INLA UDA UVF etc from carrying out these attacks it would have been relatively easy to stop even a few as they had infiltrated all groups over the years with spies and informers.
Why did the British Imperialists never attempt to stop these attacks?

[pastradamus]

He broke into old peoples houses in Belfast robbed and beat them.
Personally I think the days of the punishment shooting are over but I do believe there should be exceptions.
I certainly won’t be shedding any tears for this criminal.

Some of the problems encountered with punishment beatings and shootings are innocent people do sometimes end up on the wrong end of a baseball bat or a gun not often but it did/dose happen along with the fact that every time Republicans shoot or beat someone they alienate that persons entire extended family and friends from ever supporting the struggle.
An interesting thing about the whole punishment attacks debate is that during the latest phase of armed revolution in Ireland Republicans and Republican Socialists have shot thousands of members of our own community since 1969 and indeed Loyalists have done the same for petty crime drugs etc but very few people have ever been arrested charged or interned for a punishment attack if the British had have wanted to prevent the PIRA INLA UDA UVF etc from carrying out these attacks it would have been relatively easy to stop even a few as they had infiltrated all groups over the years with spies and informers.
Why did the British Imperialists never attempt to stop these attacks?

Obviously the question of the PSNI being unable to police the North is already addressed here but vigalantism, punishment beatings and Torture are no answer to the problems in working class communities in the north. People like these four men claim to be doing the communities they run a favour but I seriously doubt these guys would get out of bed in the morning to help the same old age pensioners they claim to be protecting.

[PRC-UTE]

I usually am opposed to this course of action, but if he was indeed attacking pensioners, then well done.

[pastradamus]

I usually am opposed to this course of action, but if he was indeed attacking pensioners, then well done.

But are we indeed sure he was doing this? I would again stress that the people who shot him are not in the community to improve it but rather control it. Im not going to sit back and take this at face value given the history of why such actions were really carried out.

[Red Saxon]

He should have been alloted a trial; he could be mentally unstable.

[PRC-UTE]

But are we indeed sure he was doing this? I would again stress that the people who shot him are not in the community to improve it but rather control it. Im not going to sit back and take this at face value given the history of why such actions were really carried out.

that's why I said "if"

[Niall]

while i feel shooting him was a bit too far, he deserved some sort of punishment, if, as has been said before, he was actually guilty. Maybe it will put others off doing the same though

[Hoggy_RS]

Anyone know what group was behind this?

[IrishWorker]

Anyone know what group was behind this?
A faction of OnH.

[Coggeh]

while i feel shooting him was a bit too far, he deserved some sort of punishment, if, as has been said before, he was actually guilty. Maybe it will put others off doing the same though
He deserves a the same democratic rights as anyone else who committed a crime. This sort of shit is bullshit and absolute barbarism . The amount of sympathy this is getting on this site scares me.

And giving the death penalty to someone does not deter the crime from being committed by someone else next week. Its been proven that it doesn't work and doesn't deter crime at all.

If this is to be condoned or supported then whats to stop some other dissident group handing down punishments to people even if they can't prove their criminals .

[Niall]

He deserves a the same democratic rights as anyone else who committed a crime. This sort of shit is bullshit and absolute barbarism . The amount of sympathy this is getting on this site scares me.

And giving the death penalty to someone does not deter the crime from being committed by someone else next week. Its been proven that it doesn't work and doesn't deter crime at all.

If this is to be condoned or supported then whats to stop some other dissident group handing down punishments to people even if they can't prove their criminals .

when people dont trust the police to sort their problems what options do they have?

[Woyzeck]

when people dont trust the police to sort their problems what options do they have?

The IRA's splinters are hardly what I'd call an "option".

[Sean]

when people dont trust the police to sort their problems what options do they have?
Community Restorative Justice.

Anyway, he'll probably get a mint in compensation. Its only an overreaction in northern irish standards if the guy hasn't even had a talking to before this. Generally it goes, they get talk, they think that makes them hard and continue regardless until they're fingered again and forced out of the area under penalty of this. If the other steps were skipped its probably because it was pensioners as Irish Worker suggested. Sometimes its unfair, but noone gets fingered for no reason and lots of people still refuse to go near the police for these things.

[Andropov]

A Mixed Grill isnt handed out for just anything.
If its that severe he must have been a naughty boy.

[Sean]

Irish Worker, Andropov and myself shrugging this off really makes the "for" camp sound creepy (especially the cutesy nickname, "mixed grill"). I don't think any of us take it as lighty as we goulishly sound having now reread this.

[Woyzeck]

A Mixed Grill isnt handed out for just anything.
If its that severe he must have been a naughty boy.

Not necessarily. When you consider that British intelligence controlled the IRA's internal security for years and as a result had many innocent people murdered to cover the tracks of those working for them, and that they've probably infiltrated these splinter groups just as successfully; what credibility do these people have in carrying out such acts?

[IrishWorker]

Irish Worker, Andropov and myself shrugging this off really makes the "for" camp sound creepy (especially the cutesy nickname, "mixed grill"). I don't think any of us take it as lighty as we goulishly sound having now reread this.
I’m sure you’ve heard of the other severe type of punishment affectionately know as the "padre pio" named after the Christian saint where the victims hands and feet are held together and a gunshot fired through each.

[Sean]

Not necessarily. When you consider that British intelligence controlled the IRA's internal security for years and as a result had many innocent people murdered to cover the tracks of those working for them, and that they've probably infiltrated these splinter groups just as successfully; what credibility do these people have in carrying out such acts?
Well yeah, but that kind of conspiracy applies more to people with intelligence considered a threat as opposed to some guy who roughs up your granny for a pastime which Irish Worker (our Huggy Bear for this thread :tt2:) says is the word on the street.

[pastradamus]

that's why I said "if"

Haha! Smartass! :lol:

[Niall]

The IRA's splinters are hardly what I'd call an "option".

for many people in such areas, neither are the police

[Sean]

I’m sure you’ve heard of the other severe type of punishment affectionately know as the "padre pio" named after the Christian saint where the victims hands and feet are held together and a gunshot fired through each.
Padre Pio term was invented by the press, no republican would mockingly use catholic terms like that. Think about it. Its one of those things that sounds like those dirty taigy types would do to the other side, like sticking their dicks in holy water before raping animals in catholic mass. Loyalists have lots of voodoo notions about catholics that sensationalist journalists wouldn't be the first to correct.

[PRC-UTE]

Not necessarily. When you consider that British intelligence controlled the IRA's internal security for years and as a result had many innocent people murdered to cover the tracks of those working for them, and that they've probably infiltrated these splinter groups just as successfully; what credibility do these people have in carrying out such acts?

actually I've had the same thoughts about this new "ONH"

[Invader Zim]

I usually am opposed to this course of action, but if he was indeed attacking pensioners, then well done.


While I don't know precisely what he did, I wouldn't wish his punishment on anyone. Perhaps I will be dubbed a bleeding heart liberal for saying this, but I think that punishment shouldn't be unnecessarily cuel and that those setting and carrying out the punishment should maintain a moral standard above that of those they are punishing. On the same principal i oppose the death penalty.

[Andropov]

Irish Worker, Andropov and myself shrugging this off really makes the "for" camp sound creepy (especially the cutesy nickname, "mixed grill"). I don't think any of us take it as lighty as we goulishly sound having now reread this.
Ya thats true.
I dont want to be exactly thrown into the "for camp" because I dont support these punishment attacks, I think they are counter productive as often they are a badge of honour to lumpen scum and in the end of the day dont deter or solve the problem of criminality on the working class.
Just when you do hear of the unsavioury characters that do get targeted its hard to shed a tear even though to outsiders it can seem excessive and barbaric.

[Coggeh]

Ya thats true.
Just when you do hear of the unsavioury characters that do get targeted its hard to shed a tear even though to outsiders it can seem excessive and barbaric.
Wouldn't you be an outsider too unless you were actually involved in the act...you devilish fiend u :sneaky:

Anywho, I shed no tears for the guy who was attacked either, as barbaric as the punishment was I do feel anger for someone who did attack pensioners.

The simple matter is the ONH are not liable to any legal scrutiny, they can attack whoever they like without providing one ounce as evidence and write it off as saying such and such a person did such and such a thing.

This is the problem i have .

[Mindtoaster]

Wouldn't you be an outsider too unless you were actually involved in the act...you devilish fiend u :sneaky:

Anywho, I shed no tears for the guy who was attacked either, as barbaric as the punishment was I do feel anger for someone who did attack pensioners.

The simple matter is the ONH are not liable to any legal scrutiny, they can attack whoever they like without providing one ounce as evidence and write it off as saying such and such a person did such and such a thing.

This is the problem i have .

They usually hit scum who are well and openly known as hoods to the communities they operate in

If you read sites like IR.net, as soon as the name of these victims pop up theres usually a flurry of "Oh yeah, know that one. Total hood, deals drugs, attacks pensioners, etc", and such. These are really tight-knit communities we're talking about the punishment attacks taking in.

Not saying I support them

[IrishWorker]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/email.gif E-mail this to a friend (http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/email/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8429438.stm)http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/print.gif Printable version (http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8429438.stm?ad=1)

Shot Belfast man was convicted of Harry Holland attack


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45054000/jpg/_45054472_44619658.jpg Harry Holland died in hospital a day after he was stabbed near his home

A man shot in a paramilitary-style attack on Wednesday night was convicted in relation to an assault in which a west Belfast greengrocer was killed. Patrick Crossan was involved in the attack on Harry Holland in 2007.
At about 1830 GMT on Wednesday Crossan was bundled into a car in the Hillman Street area of north Belfast.
He was driven around for a short time before being taken to Carrigart Avenue in the west of the city where he was shot in both legs.
He was taken to hospital where his injuries are described as not life threatening.
Police have appealed for information on *************
Stabbed
Dissident republicans have been blamed for a spate of similar shootings across Northern Ireland in recent months.
Mr Holland, 65, was stabbed in the head with a screwdriver near his home in Norfolk Drive in September 2007.
Earlier this year Stephen McKee, from Ballymurphy Road was told he must serve at least 12 years of a life sentence for the murder.
Crossan, whose address was given as Willowbank Gardens in west Belfast, was sentenced to four years for attempted affray and having an offensive weapon.
He was released from prison in September.
A 17-year-old girl was placed on a probation order for two years.
She had admitted charges of affray and common assault.

[Sean]

A man shot in a paramilitary-style attack on Wednesday night was convicted in relation to an assault in which a west Belfast greengrocer was killed.
Chances are this guy got the shits up him so much he'll confess completely to anything else so they'll keep him safe in a jail.

[Hoggy_RS]

If only the ONH would give a few beatings to the hoods who are harrassing foreign nationals in belfast.

[Pogue]

Could probably do with a bit more of this all over the place really :lol:

[Soldier of life]

If only the ONH would give a few beatings to the hoods who are harrassing foreign nationals in belfast.

Agreed, when the roma got attacked in large numbers quite recently I would have liked to see republicans respond, unfortunately this did not happen.

On the issue in general my position on it is this. First of all punishment attacks don't solve the problem, as it is very much attacking the symptom rather than the source(as in the case of drug dealing etc), which is the inequality.The people who usually carry out these actions are completely unaccountable to the community. So it begs the question, how can we trust such groups? I mean lets take the CIRA for example in belfast. They havent shot anyone in 4 years up there, yet they shoot a man recently and brand him a drug dealer as a badge of convenience. More then likely this was simply a personal falling out, and he very well may have been a dealer, but the fact is they had no interest in helping the community at all and used the drug issue to cover this.

So whats to stop these groups targetting people who they fall out with etc, there seems to be no strategy behind it really, those attacked are usually very low level people.And anyway, it cannot be a solution because in most areas in Ireland these armed groups don't exist.

My stance is that community organisation is the key, it is sustainable and accountable and in its formation aids the cause of working class unity and developing a class consciousness. However, in cases like the one here, where the person is clearly an immediate threat to those around him I would condone armed action by a republican group. I also would condone it if individuals are using the name of a republican group to intimidate and deal drugs also, there is no other solution for that IMO.

[Mindtoaster]

Agreed, when the roma got attacked in large numbers quite recently I would have liked to see republicans respond, unfortunately this did not happen.


The attacks on the Roma were taking place deep within loyalist territories, though.

Can you imagine the reaction, had a dissident carried out a punishment shooting within a loyalist neighborhood?

However, there has been recent racist attacks on an Indian family within the nationalist New Lodge area of north Belfast.


An Indian family, who had told UTV they wanted to leave their home after being targeted in weekly racist attacks for five years, were the victim of another ordeal after their plea was aired.

Monday, 21 December 2009

Last week, the Kunjumon family told UTV they wanted to move out of their home in Victoria Park in the New Lodge area of north Belfast, after the patio doors of their house were damaged in yet another attack.

The property is regularly pelted with bottles, stones, eggs and even potatoes which are hurled by youths from the top of their shed.

Neighbour Anne Kearns witnessed a fresh attack on the house last Friday, hours after the family's plea was aired on UTV.

She rushed to help them but was assaulted and bruised.

"They bit my finger, punched and booted and kicked me on the back of the head", she told UTV.

"I got floored outside the Indian's house where my head got banged. They're just thugs, animals..."

The family have applied to move out under the SPED scheme which helps people who are being intimidated leave their homes, but they said the police will not issue the required certificate.

On Monday, the Area Commander Chief Inspector Ian Campbell said it was "unacceptable that people should be intimidated into leaving their home."

"We have been working tirelessly with the family to resolve this situation which I appreciate is extremely distressing for them."

"However, the onus is on all of us - police, political representatives and the community at large - to make sure that this family can live in peace in their own home."

Badly shaken by the repeated attacks on their home, Mr Kunjumon said he believes they are being targeted by racists.

He said: "They think that I am a foreigner. Some gang doesn't like to have a foreigner here or something like that. So they targeted my home and one by one they chase me out of it."

His wife, Lalamma Kujumon, has worked as a nurse for years in war torn countries, like Kuwait and Libya, but she said she has never felt more under threat then in north Belfast.

She is now afraid to walk to the Mater Hospital where she works and has insisted the family will move back to India once their two sons have graduated from University

http://u.tv/News/Indian-family-attacked-after-TV-plea/cc1fca5a-778d-4cc0-897f-e73ea21cd1af

Last I heard this morning though, the Republican Network for Unity (32CSM, RSF, IRSP) met with the family for about an hour this morning and left them with their phone number to call if they need help.

Will be interesting to see if theres any punishment shootings carried out on the scum behind the attacks.

Either way, its great to see republicans are sticking to their anti-racist ideals in helping this family

[Soldier of life]

The attacks on the Roma were taking place deep within loyalist territories, though.

Can you imagine the reaction, had a dissident carried out a punishment shooting within a loyalist neighborhood?

However, there has been recent racist attacks on an Indian family within the nationalist New Lodge area of north Belfast.



http://u.tv/News/Indian-family-attacked-after-TV-plea/cc1fca5a-778d-4cc0-897f-e73ea21cd1af

Last I heard this morning though, the Republican Network for Unity (32CSM, RSF, IRSP) met with the family for about an hour this morning and left them with their phone number to call if they need help.

Will be interesting to see if theres any punishment shootings carried out on the scum behind the attacks.

Either way, its great to see republicans are sticking to their anti-racist ideals in helping this family

A chara just a quick correction, the RNU is a distinct group in its own right with its own membership. What you are thinking of is the Irish Republican Forum for Unity (IRFU). RSF were not involved in this either. The IRSP,32csm and RNU were involved in the IRFU but it looks dead in the water as the IRSP hasnt attended a meeting for some time.

And on your point about the Roma being attacked in 'loyalist communities'. It makes no odds to me really, I don't look at those communities as protestant,loyalist or anything like that, but irish working class communities. They are as much part of Ireland and those that live there Irish as someone in Ardoyne or West Belfast. As an IRSP supporter, if a sectarian attack was carried out by loyalists in an area where there is mostly Catholics on a Catholic I would have no problem with the INLA defending the community from loyalists armed gangs. But equally, if a so-called republican group commited a sectarian act in a majorly protestant area then I would have no problem with republican socialists taking action against those who perpetrated that. I think its important that we don't buy into the GFA crap about loyalist communities and such, and respecting loyalist 'culture', this only serves to retard our cause IMO and blurs the reality of the situation. In the course of revolution in Ireland, workers will be with us and if the bigots in certain areas wish to stop it then they will be given a choice, get with the programme or you're getting steamrolled, there can be no pandering to loyalism despite populist sentiment which is all too common in the Irish left these days.

[Mindtoaster]

A chara just a quick correction, the RNU is a distinct group in its own right with its own membership. What you are thinking of is the Irish Republican Forum for Unity (IRFU). RSF were not involved in this either. The IRSP,32csm and RNU were involved in the IRFU but it looks dead in the water as the IRSP hasnt attended a meeting for some time.



Gaaaaaaah

My bad. :blushing:

Those names are far too similar.


And on your point about the Roma being attacked in 'loyalist communities'. It makes no odds to me really, I don't look at those communities as protestant,loyalist or anything like that, but irish working class communities. They are as much part of Ireland and those that live there Irish as someone in Ardoyne or West Belfast. As an IRSP supporter, if a sectarian attack was carried out by loyalists in an area where there is mostly Catholics on a Catholic I would have no problem with the INLA defending the community from loyalists armed gangs. But equally, if a so-called republican group commited a sectarian act in a majorly protestant area then I would have no problem with republican socialists taking action against those who perpetrated that. I think its important that we don't buy into the GFA crap about loyalist communities and such, and respecting loyalist 'culture', this only serves to retard our cause IMO and blurs the reality of the situation. In the course of revolution in Ireland, workers will be with us and if the bigots in certain areas wish to stop it then they will be given a choice, get with the programme or you're getting steamrolled, there can be no pandering to loyalism despite populist sentiment which is all too common in the Irish left these days.

Yes, but a republican group carrying out a punishment attack on a loyalist in the middle of a unionist neighborhood?

That would be viewed as an attack against the protestant community and provoke a massive, violent reaction against catholic civilians from the loyalist paramilitaries, would it not?

[Soldier of life]

Gaaaaaaah

My bad. :blushing:

Those names are far too similar.



Yes, but a republican group carrying out a punishment attack on a loyalist in the middle of a unionist neighborhood?

That would be viewed as an attack against the protestant community and provoke a massive, violent reaction against catholic civilians from the loyalist paramilitaries, would it not?

The reality is that the Belfast Agreement has institutionalised a political process which is completely based on identity and has totally destroyed any sort of resemblence to democracy, even in the capitalist sense. Communities are now for the foreseeable future left completely divided on a structural level, and this is the very basis for the 'stability' of the Northern Ireland state. So any threat to this status quo, this 'own' community nonsense that the likes of Sinn Fein and the DUP rely on for their political 'success' will no doubt lead to violence when confronted in my opinion. With loyalism in Ireland, due to its nature, I can't see any other eventuality.