Opium of the people

[ComradeMan]

I have noticed that many here are very hostile to religion and others I have met in my life often quote Marx's "religion is the opium of the people" and use that as the main political reason behind their atheism.

But hang on, wasn't Marx actually talking about religion in the sense of it being an opiate, and an anaesthetic to relieve the social ills of the time? -i.e. it is not religion in itself that is the problem but more the symptom of ignorance and oppression. I also note that he neither confirms nor refutes the existence of God, in fact he doesn't really analyse religion much at all.

I have an issue with Marx here. Marx had a Jewish background but was probably looking around him and seeing 19th century Catholicism and the institution of the church, in which context I can fully understand his comments and extend them perhaps to the Eastern Orthodox chuch. Christianity does seem to have this emphasis on suffering all over the place and I needn't go into the excesses of the Church etc. Torah-true Judaism is very legalistic and uncompromising and Islam is in my opinion positively reactionary in much of its scripture. The Abrahamic religions (at least the established forms) don't come out highly on the free-thinking and free-acting scale.

But what about other religions? What about religions that don't necessarily focus on this suffering and/or on ideas of hierarchy? What about the none doctrinaire forms of Abrahamic religions:)?

What about Shinto which comes to mind, although I am not an expert, as well as many native religions or Buddhism.

Brining it back to the 21st century, instead of abolishing religion (which never seems to work anyway) shouldn't a revolutionary be more concerned with the cause in the first place instead of just trying to cut out the symptom as if it were a tumour?

Personally, I do believe there is something which transcends our understanding and I don't think science has all the answers- but these are my personal beliefs- everyone's rapport with the "divine" is personal and should be kept that way. Regarding religion I tend to look at it from Godels point of view, 14. Religions are, for the most part, bad -- but religion is not. I just substitute the latter for spirituality.

My other belief is that so long as there is death and uncertainty about what comes after there will always be religious belief of some sort.

[Muzk]

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but god doesn't exist


by the way if you die you just stop thinking, you can't really act anymore, you kind of cut out, the materia itself moves on, simply without your brain seeing, feeling, smelling things etc, etc...

[Kovacs]

I'm of the opinion that the role of religion is not, ever, to be included in societal control. The Catholic Church with the spiritual dominance and semiotic/cognitive influence and indeed the Protestants with that horrible mixing of work ethic and spirituality are both equally guilty of stepping out of their appropriate roles.

I would not deny people the harmless comfort of religious delusions and the expressions thereof. But when it comes to the level of dominance displayed by the orthodox christian traditions you must as a good socialist reject the power of priesthood. As our Levelers said 'When Adam delved and Eve span, who then was the gentleman?'

In short, it can be a harmless delusion. It can be harmful handmaid to capitalist sorts. No gods, no priests, no strong-men.:)

[ComradeMan]

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but god doesn't exist

But you haven't burst my bubble. You can neither prove nor disprove it inasmuch as I can't. But the point was about Marx's comment and in the context of the time which is relevent to Marxists' relationship to religion.

by the way if you die you just stop thinking, you can't really act anymore, you kind of cut out, the materia itself moves on, simply without your brain seeing, feeling, smelling things etc, etc..

Again you can not prove or disprove this and until such times there will always be those who seek something else beyond the grave.

[ComradeMan]

I'm of the opinion that the role of religion is not, ever, to be included in societal control. The Catholic Church with the spiritual dominance and semiotic/cognitive influence and indeed the Protestants with that horrible mixing of work ethic and spirituality are both equally guilty of stepping out of their appropriate roles.

I would not deny people the harmless comfort of religious delusions and the expressions thereof. But when it comes to the level of dominance displayed by the orthodox christian traditions you must as a good socialist reject the power of priesthood. As our Levelers said 'When Adam delved and Eve span, who then was the gentleman?'

In short, it can be a harmless delusion. It can be harmful handmaid to capitalist sorts. No gods, no priests, no strong-men.:)

You see I would agree with you on the institution of religion but what about all the other spirituality that we can neither prove nor disprove- remember what science hasn't discovered yet we call magic.

[Muzk]

theres no fucking reason to believe in anything other than what we can sense=only matter itself

every belief in something superstitual is reactionary and makes you look crazy

no gods, no masters, only men

[ComradeMan]

theres no fucking reason to believe in anything other than what we can sense=only matter itself


Quantum physics throws that out the window a little doesn't it?

If you say you only believe what you can see, and by extension sense doesn't that cause a bit of a theoretical problem with science and logic.

By the way you don't "believe in matter"...

[mikelepore]

But hang on, wasn't Marx actually talking about religion in the sense of it being an opiate, and an anaesthetic to relieve the social ills of the time?

The context in which Marx meant it is best demonstrated by what he wrote itself.

The following words are copied from Karl Marx, "Critique of the Hegelian Philosophy of Right."

************************************************** *****************

The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man.

Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But, _man_ is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is _the world of man_ -- state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, it enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the _illusory_ happiness of the people is the demand for their _real_ happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo. Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. Religion is only the illusory Sun which revolves around man as long as he does not revolve around himself.

[ComradeMan]

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

But is not religious suffering a concept that is more appropriate to Abrahamic religions and perhaps alien to other religions.

What about indigenous religions where people seem quite happy with their spiritual view?

[Meridian]

theres no fucking reason to believe in anything other than what we can sense=only matter itself

every belief in something superstitual is reactionary and makes you look crazy

no gods, no masters, only men
What about women, animals, rocks, plants, etc.? ;)

The problem is that every time we "sense" something we are in fact thinking of something. When we are thinking of something we are using words (in our heads, unless we speak it out). The words are arranged in a certain way (there are only those and those words we use for/about those and those items). This is fundamentally an understanding. It is not about sensing. We can see with our eyes, and that is sensing, but to actually say something or think something about what we are seeing (which science does all the time) requires thought.

[mikelepore]

Quantum physics throws that out the window a little doesn't it?

Quantum mechanics is a fine example of materialism and empiricism.

It came from numerous experiments where the observations could only be accounted for by making a new theory that included the necessary axioms.

There was the Bohr model of the atom, where the spectrum of hydrogen was found to be in agreement with a prediction based on assuming that the angular momemtum of an electron is an integer multiple of a certain minimum value.

There was the photoelectric effect, where a metal surface absorbs a photon of sufficient frequency, and the energy goes to two tasks, the energy needed to free an electron from the metal, and the kinetic energy that the electron has when it goes flying away.

There was the Compton effect, where a photon and an electron collide and recoil in two dimensions, following the same equations for a perfect elastic collision that an ideal billiard ball problem uses.

Beward of popular science writers who try to turn quantum mechanics, or the standard model of particles, into mysticism. They are based on observed physical reality.

[mikelepore]

But is not religious suffering a concept that is more appropriate to Abrahamic religions and perhaps alien to other religions.

What about indigenous religions where people seem quite happy with their spiritual view?

I don't know what Marx means by "religious suffering." I think he means means the religious observation that life is full of suffering, and religious ideas seem to numb some of the pain, but it has only partial success.

This is evident from the gods being invoked in the Greek cities, the gods apparently performing miracles to help both sides in the Trojan war. Hey, if I get killed out there, just make sure you put a coin in my mouth, so I can pay for the ferryboat ride into the afterlife.

It's evident in the Hindu story of Arjuna, where a soldier on a battlefield is terrified either to kill or be killed, so the god Krishna comes down and tells him that he shouldn't worry about it, because the body is only an illusion, and the eternal soul is the important thing.

The Buddha got rid of the gods but kept the idea of the reincarnation of the soul. That's revealing.

For the pharaoh of Egypt and the emperor of Rome to claim to be divine, this is surely for the sake of maintaining discipline of the workers and slaves, not for the benefit of the royal family.

Some of the native American tribes believed that you can use the proper killing technique to extract the strength or speed or courage from an ememy and insert it into yourself.

Aren't all of these situations cases of religion operating as the opium of the people?

I would say that it doesn't only apply to the Abrahamic religions.

[Richard Nixon]

Hinduism and a lot of other religions are even more classist than the Abhramic ones-ie you are not equal before god(s) but it's determined by your class. For instance the religion of some Polynesian tribesmen believe that your afterlife is determined by your class.

[ComradeMan]

I don't know what Marx means by "religious suffering." I think he means means the religious observation that life is full of suffering, and religious ideas seem to numb some of the pain, but it has only partial success.

I interpreted it as Marx saying that religion was used as an anaesthetic to alleviate the pain of daily life- so we agree here.:)

This is evident from the gods being invoked in the Greek cities, the gods apparently performing miracles to help both sides in the Trojan war. Hey, if I get killed out there, just make sure you put a coin in my mouth, so I can pay for the ferryboat ride into the afterlife. :)



I think Greek mythology has more to do with allegories based on human psychology- it's difficult to analyse what the Greeks really believed or compare Homeric times with Classical times either. The concepts in Greek are quite difficult to translate as well. I don't honestly think the Greeks took this all too literally, more symbolically. We just can't be sure.

It's evident in the Hindu story of Arjuna, where a soldier on a battlefield is terrified either to kill or be killed, so the god Krishna comes down and tells him that he shouldn't worry about it, because the body is only an illusion, and the eternal soul is the important thing.


Can't comment on Hinduism much, don't know enough about it.

The Buddha got rid of the gods but kept the idea of the reincarnation of the soul. That's revealing.


Perhaps he was right? :) But we can't prove it either way.

For the pharaoh of Egypt and the emperor of Rome to claim to be divine, this is surely for the sake of maintaining discipline of the workers and slaves, not for the benefit of the royal family.


I don't think their claiming to be divine was seen in quite the same way as we think of someone declaring him/herself to be a god/goddess or how it would be seen in today's world.
A lot of Romans did see the absurdity of the "divinification" of the Gods- you should read the The Pumpkinification of the Divine Claudius (Apocolocyntosis divi Claudii) by Seneca!
The Egyptian concept was all linked to primordial ideas of sacred kingship and fertility rites- hard for us to imagine the world as they did. It is interesting to note that the one Pharoah, Akhenaten who went all monotheistic and "divine" didn't last long and became a hated figure. I read a book that suggested this is where the origins of Judaism may have come from.
Some of the native American tribes believed that you can use the proper killing technique to extract the strength or speed or courage from an ememy and insert it into yourself.


Sympathetic magic- again I don't see it as an "opium" of the people thing because the native American was performing a rite as such- it was not really to relieve his suffering in this world.

Aren't all of these situations cases of religion operating as the opium of the people?

I would say that it doesn't only apply to the Abrahamic religions.

What strikes me is that most other religions accept human happiness and joy, the Hindus even have a goddess of sexual love, Lakshmi, the ancient Greeks also had Eros and the Egyptian creation myths were quite "bawdy" in a sense. On the other hand, the Abrahamic religions that are full of don't do this, feel guilty about that and accept your suffering and we are unworthy etc. It's like the Old Testament is full of how not to be a good Jew!!! :)

Then Jesus comes along and tries to promote generally happy, non-materialistic, non-judgemental and tolerant "Judaism" for which they nail him to a cross. His followers then manage to take this message and with time it ends up being legalistic and an instrument of oppression! :confused:

I do maintain that the Abrahamic religions have a tendency to focus on all of this negative stuff all the time. Just read the 613 mitzvot of the Halakha- there's some scary stuff there too!

[tradeunionsupporter]

Religion is a tool used by the Ruiling class to keep the lower class down.

[Robocommie]

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but god doesn't exist


by the way if you die you just stop thinking, you can't really act anymore, you kind of cut out, the materia itself moves on, simply without your brain seeing, feeling, smelling things etc, etc...

Oh, well, I'm glad you're here to set us all on the right path.