Did Marx or Engels ever call for freedom of Religion could you tell me in any of thei

[tradeunionsupporter]

Did Marx or Engels ever call for freedom of Religion could you tell me in any of their writtings or anything really where they said they supported freedom of Religion to be honest with you I like Marxism this is why Im asking this question.

[Drace]

Learn to use periods and commas.
Marx was very critical of religion.
He said "Religion is the opium of the masses"

While I do not have any quotations at the moment to prove it, I'm sure Marx supported freedom of religion and wouldn't advocate coercive means of deterring it.

[Revy]

I don't think Marxists would support restrictions on religion. Nonetheless, many Marxists have been and are fervent atheists and believe in promoting it over theism. But this doesn't translate into banning religion and driving it underground.

[IcarusAngel]

The statement "religion is the opium of the masses" isn't really a criticism of religion in the first place. Old man Marx said that in 1844, when opium and opium derivatives were the only effective painkillers anybody could take, and he took them himself and was grateful for the relief they gave him. Marx was saying that people in society will often turn to religion to attempt to alleviate some of their economic problems through religion.

Marx repeatedly noted that capitalism and market tyranny are not just bad for the body, but that they were bad for the mind, for men's mental states. Only the most menial and stupid task would be required of men, and they would become "appendages" of the machines, instead of active participants in, say, worker democracy. Because of this effect on workers mental health, he noted that they may turn to religion to relieve some of their economic distress.

As Kurt Vonnegut notes, it was a "casual truism," not a "dictum."

Another person who noted that capitalism would make people stupid and "simple" was Adam Smith.

[Pyotr Tchaikovsky]

Marx repeatedly noted that capitalism and market tyranny are not just bad for the body, but that they were bad for the mind, for men's mental states. .

But that's not the only problem presented by religion...there's the problem of space. Religious structures do occupy a lot of space while contributing nothing of value. Imagine if they were turned into factories...so much wealth could be created, productive activity takes place and jobs are created. So religion is as much a 'physical' problem as a psychological one. So eliminating religion (not by force but through education) should be a top priority for communists.

[Drace]

Another person who noted that capitalism would make people stupid and "simple" was Adam Smith.

Thanks for the insight, but can you elaborate on this point?

[Kwisatz Haderach]

In his Critique of the Gotha Programme, Marx recommended to the German socialists at the time that they should replace their vague demand for "freedom of conscience" with something more substantial, and he proposed the following replacement:

"Everyone should be able to attend his religious as well as his bodily needs without the police sticking their noses in."
-- Karl Marx, Critique of the Gotha Programme (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch04.htm)

Engels recognized the similarities between Christianity and socialism:

"The history of early Christianity has notable points of resemblance with the modern working-class movement. Like the latter, Christianity was originally a movement of oppressed people: it first appeared as the religion of slaves and emancipated slaves, of poor people deprived of all rights, of peoples subjugated or dispersed by Rome. Both Christianity and the workers' socialism preach forthcoming salvation from bondage and misery; Christianity places this salvation in a life beyond, after death, in heaven; socialism places it in this world, in a transformation of society. Both are persecuted and baited, their adherents are despised and made the objects of exclusive laws, the former as enemies of the human race, the latter as enemies of the state, enemies of religion, the family, social order. And in spite of all persecution, nay, even spurred on by it, they forge victoriously, irresistibly ahead."
-- Friedrich Engels, On the History of Early Christianity (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894/early-christianity/index.htm)

For the most part, however, Marx and Engels made no explicit statements on the attitude that a future socialist state or communist society should take towards religion. That's because they made very few statements about any future policies in socialism or communism, and religion had a pretty low priority on their agenda.

Other Marxists were more clear on the matter of religion. For example, Lenin:

"Religion must be of no concern to the state, and religious societies must have no connection with governmental authority. Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever... Discrimination among citizens on account of their religious convictions is wholly intolerable. Even the bare mention of a citizen’s religion in official documents should unquestionably be eliminated. No subsidies should be granted to the established church nor state allowances made to ecclesiastical and religious societies. These should become absolutely free associations of like-minded citizens, associations independent of the state."
-- Vladimir Lenin, Socialism and Religion (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm)

Or Anton Pannekoek:

"All agitators, and, what is still more significant, all programs of international socialist parties, unanimously declare religion to be a private affair of individuals, in which others have no business to interfere. Nevertheless most priests and official representatives of religion combat the social democracy very zealously. They contend, that this movement aims merely to exterminate faith, and they harp unctuously upon all statements of our great champions Marx, Engels, Dietzgen, in which they make critical remarks about religion and defend their own materialism as a scientific doctrine. This, again, is opposed by comrades in our own ranks, who, relying upon the declaration of neutrality toward religion in our party program, would prefer to forbid the spreading of such statements, which hurt the feelings of religious people. They say that the goal of our socialist movement is purely economic. In that respect they are right, and we shall not fail to repeat this again and again in refutation of the lies of the preachers. We do not wish to inoculate people with a new faith, or an atheism, but we rather wish to bring about an economic transformation of society. We desire to displace capitalist production by a socialist one. Any one may realize the practicability of such a collective production and its advantages over capitalist exploitation, for reasons which have nothing at all to do with religion. To this end we want to secure the political power for the working class, since it is indispensable as a means to this end. The necessity, or at least the desirability, of this transfer of the political power can be understood by any laborer from his political experience, without any further ceremony, regardless of whether he is in matters of faith a Protestant, a Catholic, a Jew, or a Freethinker without any religion."
-- Anton Pannekoek, Socialism and Religion (http://www.marxists.org/archive/pannekoe/1907/socialism-religion.htm) (yes, a different work with the same title)

[Drace]

Other Marxists were more clear on the matter of religion. For example, Lenin:

"Religion must be of no concern to the state, and religious societies must have no connection with governmental authority. Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever... Discrimination among citizens on account of their religious convictions is wholly intolerable. Even the bare mention of a citizen’s religion in official documents should unquestionably be eliminated. No subsidies should be granted to the established church nor state allowances made to ecclesiastical and religious societies. These should become absolutely free associations of like-minded citizens, associations independent of the state."
-- Vladimir Lenin, Socialism and Religion (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm)

Wasn't there religious suppression in the Soviet Union?

[khad]

Wasn't there religious suppression in the Soviet Union?
Islam was state sponsored and religious figures were state employees.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Wasn't there religious suppression in the Soviet Union?
Sort of. Allow me to explain...

First of all, according to the Soviet constitution (not just Lenin's personal opinions), religious freedom was to be respected:

"For the purpose of securing to the workers real freedom of conscience, the church is to be separated from the state and the school from the church, and the right of religious and anti-religous propaganda is accorded to every citizen."
-- Soviet constitution of 1918, Article 2, chapter 5 (http://www.marxists.org/history/ussr/government/constitution/1918/article2.htm)

Persecution of religion was simply illegal in the USSR. In spite of this, there exists the idea that the USSR persecuted religion. I can think of 4 reasons for it:

1. Soviet citizens were free to be as religious or non-religious as they liked, but they were not free to publicly promote reactionary or anti-communist politics. And a lot of religious believers (not to mention the majority of the clergy) were intensely reactionary and anti-communist. For this - not for their religious views - they were subject to various kinds of punishment, including arrest. But, of course, every time a clergyman was arrested, no matter the reason, the Church always claimed it was anti-religious persecution.

2. The Soviet state was the owner of the means of production, including the printing presses, and it printed anti-religious propaganda in large quantities. This is often counted as persecution... Apparently some people think that publishing books similar to Dawkins' "The God Delusion" is a form of persecution against religion.

3. The Soviet state was also the owner of most land, including the land on which religious buildings stood. As such, it was able to demolish religious buildings or assign them to new purposes if it wished. This was done to a lot of churches and mosques in the 1930s. I suppose you might count this as persecution... but on the other hand, the state also paid for the maintenance of all religious buildings, and paid wages to priests and other clergymen (as Khad mentioned, religious figures were state employees, like everyone else).

4. Overtly religious people were barred from leadership positions in the Communist Party.

Because of #2, #3 and #4, I think it would be fair to say that the USSR was hostile towards religion. But it didn't really persecute religious people - the worst thing that could happen to you if you were an ordinary religious person was that you could not expect to have a successful political career.

[mikelepore]

Did Marx or Engels ever call for freedom of Religion could you tell me in any of their writtings or anything really where they said they supported freedom of Religion to be honest with you I like Marxism this is why Im asking this question.

"We know that violent measures against religion are nonsense; but this is an opinion: as socialism grows, religion will disappear. Its disappearance must be done by social development, in which education must play a part."

Karl Marx

"Interview with Karl Marx", The Chicago Tribune, January 5, 1879

[Bud Struggle]

As an aside to this topic is the story of the Cathedral of Christ the Savior. It was a huge chruch built by the Romanovs that was destroyed by the Communists and turned into a swimming pool. One of the first things the Russina people did (through subscription) was to rebuild the cathedral right after the fall of Communism in Russia.

http://www.moscow.info/orthodox-moscow/cathedral-christ-saviour.aspx

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Cathedral_of_Christ_the_Saviour_(Moscow)

Seems the Russians wanted the cathedral rebuilt post haste. Nostolgia among the Russians is a complicated subject. :)

[Die Rote Fahne]

I highly doubt any communist society would ban religion, as religion is not really a part of the capitalist system (although it plays a role in the government of the USA).

Marx and other communists are critical of religion because religion is NOT materialistic.

[mikelepore]

Where did the irritating translation "the masses" come from? Marx wrote "des Volkes" -- "the people."

"Die Religion ist der Seufzer der bedrängten Kreatur, das Gemüt einer herzlosen Welt, wie sie der Geist geistloser Zustände ist. Sie ist das Opium des Volkes."

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, as it is the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."

Read the T-shirt:

http://www.denkladen.de/images/product_images/info_images/1033_1.JPG

[Kayser_Soso]

As an aside to this topic is the story of the Cathedral of Christ the Savior. It was a huge chruch built by the Romanovs that was destroyed by the Communists and turned into a swimming pool. One of the first things the Russina people did (through subscription) was to rebuild the cathedral right after the fall of Communism in Russia.

http://www.moscow.info/orthodox-moscow/cathedral-christ-saviour.aspx

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Cathedral_of_Christ_the_Saviour_(Moscow)

Seems the Russians wanted the cathedral rebuilt post haste. Nostolgia among the Russians is a complicated subject. :)


After rebuilding the Cathedral, Jesus was so happy he removed all suffering and pain from Russia and now there is no misery whatosever in Russia. Oh wait hang on, that's not right. He didn't do shit. That was what happened.

First off Bud, "the Russians" didn't give a shit about building the Cathedral. The Fascist(yes, the Russian government is by definition fascist) government did. They need to keep their people in line with superstition. If the "Russians" as in the Russian people had anything to do with rebuilding that cathedral, they wouldn't charge over 1000 EUROS for tickets to the Easter Mass, would they?

[Green Dragon]

Persecution of religion was simply illegal in the USSR. In spite of this, there exists the idea that the USSR persecuted religion. I can think of 4 reasons for it:

[QUOTE]
1. Soviet citizens were free to be as religious or non-religious as they liked, but they were not free to publicly promote reactionary or anti-communist politics. And a lot of religious believers (not to mention the majority of the clergy) were intensely reactionary and anti-communist. For this - not for their religious views - they were subject to various kinds of punishment, including arrest. But, of course, every time a clergyman was arrested, no matter the reason, the Church always claimed it was anti-religious persecution.


In other words, being pro-religious was being communist, That is all the above is about.



2. The Soviet state was the owner of the means of production, including the printing presses, and it printed anti-religious propaganda in large quantities. This is often counted as persecution... Apparently some people think that publishing books similar to Dawkins' "The God Delusion" is a form of persecution against religion.


When the state does not allow for the oppoite publication..some people might think there is apersecution involved.



3. The Soviet state was also the owner of most land, including the land on which religious buildings stood. As such, it was able to demolish religious buildings or assign them to new purposes if it wished. This was done to a lot of churches and mosques in the 1930s. I suppose you might count this as persecution... but on the other hand, the state also paid for the maintenance of all religious buildings, and paid wages to priests and other clergymen (as Khad mentioned, religious figures were state employees, like everyone else).


In other words, the state maintained those building it chose not to tear down. Heyyyyyyyyy!!! We got a bunch of misundersood religious toleratinys here.



4. Overtly religious people were barred from leadership positions in the Communist Party.


Nahhh!! Means nothing.



Because of #2, #3 and #4, I think it would be fair to say that the USSR was hostile towards religion. But it didn't really persecute religious people - the worst thing that could happen to you if you were an ordinary religious person was that you could not expect to have a successful political career.


what a joke!! The state targets the religious, tears down churches, but hey wasn't really all that bad.

Of course, the next thead will be all about how the USSR was not really a communist community at all!!

[Bud Struggle]

First off Bud, "the Russians" didn't give a shit about building the Cathedral. The Fascist(yes, the Russian government is by definition fascist) government did.

About one million Muscovites donated money for the project.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_Christ_the_Saviour

That's a lot of Fascists in Moscow. Are you sure the Germans didn't win WWII? ;) :D


If the "Russians" as in the Russian people had anything to do with rebuilding that cathedral, they wouldn't charge over 1000 EUROS for tickets to the Easter Mass, would they? Ouch! I don't know about how Eastern Orthodox do things (you might ask Spliteeth.) I'm Catholic as we get in to services for free.

(Also, I believe they call it the "Divine Liturgy." "Mass" comes from the Latin words (at the end of Mass) "ite Missa est". The Russian Orthodox don't use Latin.)

[Red Saxon]

Religious beliefs should be respected, unless they are working against the proletariat. Churches need not be grandiose structures. Nor should they be huge financial or political institutions. They could be a building as any other, used by the people who build it for the purpose they desire.

If you want to live under your own authority, fine. Just don't ***** about the institutions and ruin it for other people.

[Kayser_Soso]

About one million Muscovites donated money for the project.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_Christ_the_Saviour

Yeah and a good portion of them can't afford to get in to see the mass.



That's a lot of Fascists in Moscow. Are you sure the Germans didn't win WWII? ;) :D

In a way they did.



Ouch! I don't know about how Eastern Orthodox do things (you might ask Spliteeth.) I'm Catholic as we get in to services for free.

(Also, I believe they call it the "Divine Liturgy." "Mass" comes from the Latin words (at the end of Mass) "ite Missa est". The Russian Orthodox don't use Latin.)

Liturgy, mass, who gives a shit?