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View Full Version : Libertarian admits France's system better than US corporatism



IcarusAngel
19th December 2009, 01:35
Hat tip: Dawkins forums. Libertarians understand freer conditions are actually created by regulating market.

Very rare that a Libertarian actually looks at the empirical evidence:



Why I Prefer French Health Care
The U.S. system’s deep flaws make socialism more tempting

Matt Welch

By now I’m accustomed to being the only person in any given room with my particular set of cockamamie politics. But even within the more familiar confines of the libertarian movement, I am an awkward outlier on the topic of the day (and the topic of this issue of reason): health care.

To put it plainly, when free marketers warn that Democratic health care initiatives will make us more “like France,” a big part of me says, “I wish.” It’s not that I think it’s either feasible or advisable for the United States to adopt a single-payer, government-dominated system. But it’s instructive to confront the comparative advantages of one socialist system abroad to sharpen the arguments for more capitalism at home.

For a dozen years now I’ve led a dual life, spending more than 90 percent of my time and money in the U.S. while receiving 90 percent of my health care in my wife’s native France. On a personal level the comparison is no contest: I’ll take the French experience any day. ObamaCare opponents often warn that a new system will lead to long waiting times, mountains of paperwork, and less choice among doctors. Yet on all three of those counts the French system is significantly better, not worse, than what the U.S. has now.

Need a prescription for muscle relaxers, an anti-fungal cream, or a steroid inhaler for temporary lung trouble? In the U.S. you have to fight to get on the appointment schedule of a doctor within your health insurance network (I’ll conservatively put the average wait time at five days), then have him or her scrawl something unintelligible on a slip of paper, which you take to a drugstore to exchange for your medicine. You might pay the doc $40, but then his office sends you a separate bill for the visit, and for an examination, and those bills also go to your insurance company, which sends you an adjustment sheet weeks after the doctor’s office has sent its third payment notice. By the time it’s all sorted out, you’ve probably paid a few hundred dollars to three different entities, without having a clue about how or why any of the prices were set.

In France, by contrast, you walk to the corner pharmacist, get either a prescription or over-the-counter medication right away, shell out a dozen or so euros, and you’re done. If you need a doctor, it’s not hard to get an appointment within a day or three, you make payments for everything (including X-rays) on the spot, and the amounts are routinely less than the co-payments for U.S. doctor visits. I’ve had back X-rays, detailed ear examinations, even minor oral surgery, and never have I paid more than maybe €300 for any one procedure.

And it’s not like the medical professionals in France are chopped liver. In the U.S., my wife had some lumps in her breast dismissed as harmless by a hurried, indifferent doctor at Kaiser Permanente. Eight months later, during our annual Christmas visit in Lyon, one of the best breast surgeons in the country detected that the lumps were growing and removed them.

We know that the horrific amount of third-party gobbledygook in America, the cost insensitivity, and the price randomness are all products of bad policies that market reforms could significantly improve. We know, too, that France’s low retail costs are subsidized by punitively high tax rates that will have to increase unless benefits are cut. If you are rich and sick (or a healthy doctor), you’re likely better off here. But as long as the U.S. remains this ungainly public-private hybrid, with ever-tighter mandates producing ever-fewer consumer choices, the average consumer’s health care experience will probably be more pleasing in France.

What’s more, none of these anecdotes scratches the surface of France’s chief advantage, and the main reason socialized medicine remains a perennial temptation in this country: In France, you are covered, period. It doesn’t depend on your job, it doesn’t depend on a health maintenance organization, and it doesn’t depend on whether you filled out the paperwork right. Those who (like me) oppose ObamaCare, need to understand (also like me, unfortunately) what it’s like to be serially rejected by insurance companies even though you’re perfectly healthy. It’s an enraging, anxiety-inducing, indelible experience, one that both softens the intellectual ground for increased government intervention and produces active resentment toward anyone who argues that the U.S. has “the best health care in the world.”

Since 1986 I’ve missed exactly three days of work due to illness. I don’t smoke, I don’t (usually) do drugs or drink to excess, and I eat a pretty healthy diet. I have some back pain now and then from a protruding disc, but nothing too serious. And from 1998 to 2001, when I was a freelancer in the world’s capital of freelancers (Los Angeles), I couldn’t get health insurance.

Kaiser rejected me because I had visited the doctor too many times in the 12 months preceding my application (I filled in the “3-5 times” circle, to reflect the three routine and inexpensive check-ups I’d had in France). Blue Cross rejected me too. There weren’t many other options. Months later, an insurance broker told me I’d ruined my chances by failing to file a written appeal. “You’re basically done in California,” he said. “A rejection is like an arrest—if you don’t contest it, you’re guilty, and it’s on your permanent record.”

It wasn’t as if I wanted or needed to consume much health care then. I was in my early 30s, and I wanted to make sure a catastrophic illness or injury wouldn’t bankrupt my family. When I finally found a freelance-journalist collective that allowed me and my wife to pay $212 a month to hedge against a car accident, it a) refused to cover pregnancies or childbirths at any price and b) hiked the monthly rate up to $357 after a year. One of the main attractions of moving from freelance status to a full-time job was the ability to affix a stable price on my health insurance.

This is the exact opposite of the direction in which we should be traveling in a global just-in-time economy, with its ideal of entrepreneurial workers breaking free of corporate command and zipping creatively from project to project. Don’t even get me started on the Kafkaesque ordeal of switching jobs without taking any time off, yet going uncovered by anything except COBRA for nearly two months even though both employers used the same health insurance provider. That incident alone cost me thousands of dollars I wouldn’t have paid if I had controlled my own insurance policy.

I’ve now reached the age where I will better appreciate the premium skill level of American doctors and their high-quality equipment and techniques. And in a very real way my family has voted with its feet when it comes to choosing between the two countries. One of France’s worst problems is the rigidity and expense that comes with an extensive welfare state.

But as you look at the health care solutions discussed in this issue, ask yourself an honest question: Are we better off today, in terms of health policy, than we would have been had we acknowledged more loudly 15 years ago that the status quo is quite awful for a large number of Americans? Would we have been better off focusing less on waiting times in Britain, and more on waiting times in the USA? It’s a question I plan to ask my doctor this Christmas. In French.

Matt Welch is reason's editor in chief.

http://forum.richarddawkins.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=103530

IcarusAngel
19th December 2009, 03:31
Here's hayenmill's intellectual hero Kevin Carson explaining why a public opinion is less statist than US health care, although for reasons that are a little too bizarre for me to quote in full:


In this light, the public option would actually have represented a net decrease in statism. The major components of the healthcare “reform” that everyone agreed on were a naked power grab by a state-enforced cartel, forcing the entire population to purchase insurance at cartel prices and taxing the public to buy it for those who can’t afford it. The public option, on the other hand, would have been entirely self-financed after the initial seed money of a few billion, and nobody would have been forced to buy it. But it would have offered price competition to members of the insurance cartel.


Of course, trolls only come to spam, not to learn.

Chambered Word
19th December 2009, 05:39
Not surprised at all, but at least some 'libertarians' are waking up to the facts. :)

Havet
19th December 2009, 12:07
It's pretty common sense that state-run public healthcare is better than corporatist healthcare. Of course, I would prefer neither.

If you even cared the slightest to debate my arguments you'd know I already implied that before (http://www.revleft.com/vb/thoughts-welfare-t123988/index.html).

Robert
19th December 2009, 16:04
I'll echo Mr. Welch's particular sentiments and observations. I have lived in France and was astonished at the ease and immediacy with which I arranged medical treatment for a variety of disorders: an allergic reaction to food, a minor skin disorder, and ... I don't remember the third one right now. Maybe it was early Alzheimer's.:lol:

When I would reach for my wallet to pay for the doctor visits, the doctors or staff would tell me "it's covered by your insurance." I protested that I should have to pay something, but ... no. The trip to the pharmacy was equally painless.

I did learn on returning to the office that there was as much post-treatment paperwork there as there is pre-paperwork here. And my taxes were higher than they are here. But never mind ....

Here's my beef: there are two groups of "responsibles" in the USA system that are either overlooked or just forgiven in every health care debate: 1) the doctors; and 2) the patients. They are sacred cows, immune to the slightest reproach. All problems are the faults of: insurance companies, Republicans, and Libertarians.

There was a time in the USA when the trip to the doctor did not involve an intake interview beginning with "I need a copy of your insurance card." This was because the doctor would send a bill to the house, knowing that the patient's family would make a good faith effort to pay, and indeed pay in most cases. Not every trip to the doctor ends with a $70,000 heart bypass operation or dialysis treatment. If the kids have an ear infection, you check 'em out and give 'em antibiotics. Broken arm? Set it, put a plaster cast on it and send 'em home. A bad cut? Wash it, stitch it, and send 'em home. Send the bill in the mail and offer payment plans. I don't know why my own doctor always insists on getting a copy of my card. He knows me and knows I'm not indigent. What am I going to do? Blow off his bill and risk alienating him?

I also have a problem with the American patient, including members of our beloved "working class." Americans graze continuously and do not exercise. I'm talking generalities so please don't tell me how many calories a poor farmhand burns. I already know this. I also know they don't have the money to join LA Fitness. They do have the power eat fewer calories than they need to maintain their clinically obese status. They do have power to stand and lift hand weights or walk in place during the commercials breaks of American Idol (American Idle, more like).

When I got off the plane in NY after my last extended stay in France, I was flabbergasted at how fat everyone looked. The French enjoy their food, eat smaller portions, rarely snack (though this is changing (http://library.thinkquest.org/trio/TTQ06042/Temp4/france.html)), and walk everywhere. There are no "all you can eat" deals in France. Nobody wants them. Americans do none of this and health care reform can't make them do so. Children deserve health care without pre-condition or reservation, agreed. Adults who abuse themselves and their bodies at some point owe the community at least as much as their obesity and indolence is costing.

Harrumph!

Demogorgon
19th December 2009, 19:44
There's a last ditch defence of private healthcare you sometimes hear from Americans (that Robert hasn't invoked but has come close to) that says "well Europeans might be able to have Universal Healthcare but Americans aren't responsible enough with their health for it". You have to wonder what Europe they are referring to and how it is related to the one here. To be fair obesity levels are a bit lower on average (though Scotland for instance has a typical diet that could put the American one to shame for unhealthiness) but at the same time look at the amount of smoking and drinking that goes on! We aren't exactly paragons of healthy living.

Robert
19th December 2009, 20:29
There's a last ditch defence of private healthcare you sometimes hear from Americans (that Robert hasn't invoked but has come close to) that says "well Europeans might be able to have Universal Healthcare but Americans aren't responsible enough with their health for it".

It's true. No doctor can help you if you ingest limitless amounts of fat and sugar and will not exercise. Face it.


You have to wonder what Europe they are referring to

It is not they. It is I! And I refer to Greece, specifically Sparta. This guy deserves health insurance:

http://th03.deviantart.net/fs31/300W/f/2008/200/a/7/Commission___Spartan_Warrior_by_PearlPhoenix.jpg

This guy does not:

http://notwhileiameating.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/corn-eating.jpg

Kwisatz Haderach
20th December 2009, 08:19
For a dozen years now I’ve led a dual life, spending more than 90 percent of my time and money in the U.S. while receiving 90 percent of my health care in my wife’s native France. On a personal level the comparison is no contest: I’ll take the French experience any day.

[...]

Since 1986 I’ve missed exactly three days of work due to illness. I don’t smoke, I don’t (usually) do drugs or drink to excess, and I eat a pretty healthy diet. I have some back pain now and then from a protruding disc, but nothing too serious. And from 1998 to 2001, when I was a freelancer in the world’s capital of freelancers (Los Angeles), I couldn’t get health insurance.
Ah, you see, what we have here is a very rare species indeed: the libertarian who has been confronted with reality and lived to tell the tale.

Reason magazine should be careful with this guy. A couple more doses of reality, and he might turn into a socialist!


It is not they. It is I! And I refer to Greece, specifically Sparta. This guy deserves health insurance: [pictures cut]
This is madness...

:lol: