Reporting Crimes

[ellipsis]

Say you hear a gunshot or witness some crime, do you call the police? Do you risk that an innocent person could be sent to jail or help perpetuate the prison-industrial complex? I was watching The Wire and I wondered whether my opposition towards helping the police and giving them information or my duty to look after my neighbors and safeguard the community came first.

[Drace]

What else would you do?

[ellipsis]

Ever heard of the Stop snitching campaign?

[RHIZOMES]

I'd be more concerned with saving the life of the victim rather than adhering to some sort of ideological abstention from calling the cops, that would lead to someone (maybe even a worker) getting shot or robbed.

[Drace]

We aren't in middle school.
These are serious crimes your talking about.

You shouldn't be calling the police if you find people smoking weed. Though your opposition of police seems so dumb and kiddy when you say that potential crimes as vicious as murder shouldn't be reported because your being a snitch.

[ellipsis]

No, I am undecided. and I never said murder.

And I referred to the stop snitching campaign because you asked why people wouldn't call the cops. Some people don't want to snitch. I wasn't supporting that.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Hearing a gunshot is usually a good reason to believe that someone is being murdered. The well-being of people is always paramount to petty ideological beliefs. Helping the police is not inherently anti-socialist because every once in a while it is the right thing to do. The police are not a multi-national, they don't profit from you calling them and reporting gunfire, socialists are against crime too.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

I guess it would depend on your situation; say someone steals something from you to fund a crippling drug habit, do you report them to the cops? They'll just go round the system and back out again, worse off than before, but what if someone steals something to sell it on to fund organized crime? They are just exploiting people, but, do they 'deserve' to be arrested? What if they are just a footsolider, working for the higher ups because thats how capitalism has forced them to make money.

In the case of murder/rape/similar situations then its probably best to contact the cops, because if it turns out you knew about it and didn't report it, you may have some interesting questions to answer down at the station, and 'I didn't wanna snitching' or 'I don't like cops' won't help your case.

A moral dilemma, so filp a coin/prey to god (or stalin)/ask the magic 8 ball or whatever.

[ellipsis]

Well what if in some way telling the cops about X crime will likely incriminate yourself or possibly incriminate yourself? There is an interesting law lecture on google video/you tube called don't talk to the cops; basically if you are being questioned by the police, there is no possible way that it could help you in a court room and you may end of getting fucked over by the police, even if you know you are innocent.

Also what if you give a faulty description or for whatever reason and the police arrested the wrong guy, entrap him into confessing and then he get executed. What if you call the cops because you THINK that you heard a gunshot, which could have been a car back-firing, etc. the police show up and nab some "suspicious looking" youths who had weed on them and now will never get federal student loans and maybe even go to prison because of you?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Crimes like murder, rape etc. are not 'Capitalist crimes.' They would occur in any society. End of the day there are still criminals who commit such crimes, they are wrong, and they should be punished, even if it is by the dreaded police.

Obviously, I wouldn't really snitch on somebody taking drugs, but that is because I don't believe that is morally wrong, and indeed I am partial to a joint or two. I don't see that as a morally wrong action. Murder et al, however, are clearly wrong, no matter what the background reasons, and should be reported.

[Pogue]

Well I'm not excactly going to call the Socialist Workers Party am I.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

When lives and the well being of others is at stake, the police should be informed. That does not mean the police and their organisation is something we agree with.

[Robocommie]

I think theredson does touch on a legitimate concern though. While calling the cops is the only real recourse people have to protect themselves, it's unfortunate that the justice system isn't necessarily going to solve anything in a broader social sense. The prison-industrial complex is real, and there are a lot of people making a lot of money off of keeping people behind bars.

The justice system is one of the most flagrant of how capitalism fails; it puts people into competition with forces they can't hope to win against, and inevitably some people who get ground down the most are going to try and reassert power and autonomy by becoming a criminal; boosting cars or TVs, dealing drugs, what have you. But the people who take this route are going to get smashed down even further. They catch you with one stolen TV and you can kiss your future goodbye, they'll make you regret being born.

[MarxSchmarx]

Hearing a gunshot is usually a good reason to believe that someone is being murdered. The well-being of people is always paramount to petty ideological beliefs. Helping the police is not inherently anti-socialist because every once in a while it is the right thing to do. The police are not a multi-national, they don't profit from you calling them and reporting gunfire, socialists are against crime too.


This actually isn't as much of a hypothetical. I was walking back from buying some groceries once when I saw a woman getting beat up really badly in the car at an intersection. She was all bloody and tried to get out, but the male driver kept tugging her in and continued to hit her. She was calling for help from pedestrians, but when we rushed he drove off before anyone could intervene, but I got the car's license numbers and called the police from my cellular phone.

[ellipsis]

Obviously that is pretty clear cut.

On the other hand I watched a BMW get side swiped by a SUV in front of my apartment and made a conscious decision not to run after the SUV to get the license nor to tell the driver, who was in shock to run after the SUV stopped at the intersection. Was this wrong of me?

[Valeofruin]

try shooting back...

[punisa]

depends on the crime. If you saw a rape or a murder, then yeah - I'd report it asap.
Minor stuff, like that car situation, I guess not...

[Spawn of Stalin]

I think theredson does touch on a legitimate concern though. While calling the cops is the only real recourse people have to protect themselves, it's unfortunate that the justice system isn't necessarily going to solve anything in a broader social sense. The prison-industrial complex is real, and there are a lot of people making a lot of money off of keeping people behind bars.

The justice system is one of the most flagrant of how capitalism fails; it puts people into competition with forces they can't hope to win against, and inevitably some people who get ground down the most are going to try and reassert power and autonomy by becoming a criminal; boosting cars or TVs, dealing drugs, what have you. But the people who take this route are going to get smashed down even further. They catch you with one stolen TV and you can kiss your future goodbye, they'll make you regret being born.
I shed no tears when a legitimate criminal gets sent down, we can't expect the police to change society because the system would not allow them to do so even if they wanted to. To solve the problems which force people into crime is revolutionary, while sending genuinely bad people to prison is a modest reform. We should support both.

Obviously that is pretty clear cut.

On the other hand I watched a BMW get side swiped by a SUV in front of my apartment and made a conscious decision not to run after the SUV to get the license nor to tell the driver, who was in shock to run after the SUV stopped at the intersection. Was this wrong of me?
My partner's Dad used to have an old BMW, it was a piece of crap and he is as proletarian as they come, crimes against workers are the worst kind of crimes. That said if it was one of the more recent BMW models they deserved it and you probably made the right call.

[ellipsis]

BMW was definately really new.

[Holden Caulfield]

Well I'm not excactly going to call the Socialist Workers Party am I.

I'm fucking sure it was me who introduced this brilliant line of argument to you... Well anyways what Pogue just said.

What is it with communists and anarchists who do not live in the real world. Yes the police are an instrument of opression but if I'm about to be stabbed to death by a gang of nazis just as I walk past a cop shop I would obviously go inside. The same logic that makes me do this applies to millions of other situations, if my girlfriend is raped I call the cops, if my house if being broken into at 5am i call the cops.

If somebody is kicking my head in on a night out the cops won't walk past thinking 'well as our primary function is to protect the ruling class it is benaficial to our cause to allow that known communist to be beaten' they would break the fight up.

Now we all know coppers on demos, coppers who are racist and the majoirty of certain police forces (PSNI, the Met etc) are ****s but that doesn't mean we have to live by some religious bullshit of hating everything about the police.

This reminds me of a story I once herd (doesnt matter if its true or not I cant verify it): When an environmental hippy guy fell out of a tree and cut his head open at an anarcho demo the rest of the group had a brief discussion on whether or not calling for a NHS-state ran ambulance would increase the power of the state over them all.
The lesson being: grow up, come to the real world, and get some fucking perspective for fucks sake its an embarrasment to have these views supported by so many decent comrades.



Obviously that is pretty clear cut.

On the other hand I watched a BMW get side swiped by a SUV in front of my apartment and made a conscious decision not to run after the SUV to get the license nor to tell the driver, who was in shock to run after the SUV stopped at the intersection. Was this wrong of me?

The state is evil and cannot be relied on to make decent judgement calls so you will take its place??
You who do not know if that person had saved up loads to buy an expensive car, had won the car, had their child in the car etc etc etc

[ellipsis]

If some one breaks into my house or tries to jump me, I would shoot them rather than call cops who are at best 30 min away at night.

[ellipsis]

And times where I have called the police it has backfired and I ended up in trouble. No more details, too embarrassing.

[ComradeMan]

I'd call the cops, imagine if you'd been shot- you'd want someone to wouldn't you? Of course here where I am they'd probably turn up the next day! :D LOL!! And then no one would have "seen anything".

[Ol' Dirty]

The main reason the SSC is so influential is because people are being intimidated by thugs who don't want to get caught. They don't want to be killed or robbed or raped, and I don't blame them. People who are quick to criticze might not understand that its a matter of life and death for people. They don't live in an atmosphere that tolerates informers, and it's a scary place. It's not a cerebral, ethical matter, it's do I want to live?

[Holden Caulfield]

If some one breaks into my house or trys to jump me, I would shoot them rather than call cops who are at beat 30 min away at night.

America is a lovely place, I wish I had a gun. If somebody broke into my house I would obviously pull of a knife or a cricket bat but I would also call the police. I would not gamble the safety of my family in my ability to take on an unknown number of people, with unknown weapons and unknown motives in the dark

[Dr Mindbender]

If some one breaks into my house or trys to jump me, I would shoot them rather than call cops who are at beat 30 min away at night.

this is true, when i was at uni a mate of mine got accosted by a pack of twats and i accompanied him to hospital. 2 hours later the dibble decide to show up.

[Holden Caulfield]

this is true, when i was at uni a mate of mine got accosted by a pack of twats and i accompanied him to hospital. 2 hours later the dibble decide to show up.

that justifies not reporting crimes. I once had to wait 5 hours for a xray at hospital, if I ever break another bone I won't bother going to hospital, in fact by going to a state ran hospital i will be perpetuating the states monopoly on healthcare and so I will get a mate to fix me.

if I ever see somebody else who has been injured I will judge them on their appearance and try to dicern their social standing and then if they pass the proletarian test (flat cap, whippet, sleeves slightly too short etc) I will call them an ambulance.

In time, when I develop the god complex, I will try to heal the sick and will ponce round the night in a cape fighting crimes

[Lyev]

I sometimes wonder with things like this, what would peoples opinions be if Marx or Lenin had said nothing on the police being an "instrument of oppression", you know? But, to be honest I don't have the courage to take the law into my own hands (bearing in mind I'm only 15) if someone broke into my house I'd bloody shit myself. I suppose I would phone the police, of course and not try to take the burglar myself. Then I'd try and find a stick or something just in case the burglar got frisky, but I'm quite thin and weedy so me against a fully grown man/woman, possibly with a gun, isn't stacked in my favour (then again, maybe I could do a Macaulay Culkin, Home Alone thing on the burglar). The nearest police station is probably about 20 mins from my house, so yeah, if an actual hard-core criminal broke into my house and I was the only one here I would be dead. It could be several burglars actually. So I suppose my point is, yeah, I'd phone the police :)

[The Red Next Door]

Yes you should called the police on someone if they are doing something to harm others or stealing. but calling the police on someone because they are doing graffiti art and less serious stuff that do not cause damage of any sort. no

[ellipsis]

America is a lovely place, I wish I had a gun. If somebody broke into my house I would obviously pull of a knife or a cricket bat but I would also call the police. I would not gamble the safety of my family in my ability to take on an unknown number of people, with unknown weapons and unknown motives in the dark
Well, I figure if I can't solve a problem with 30 rounds of 7.62x39 and six of .357 magnum, I am pretty well fucked.

Well this is all kinda theoretical for me, at least in VT as we have the lowest crime rate in the US. If I hear gun shots frequently that is very normal and means a neighbor is shooting in their backyard or it is hunting season. So yah the realities of street crime are not completely known to me.

I did call the cops on a drunk driver once but got cut off so nothing came of it, but my buddy who did the same had to show up to testify for a court date like 1-2hours from his house, which the driver failed to show up for, so he will have to go again.

[The Douche]

I lived on a street with gang activity, the house across from mine sold drugs, the police regularly patrolled my block. My house was usually rented to out of town college kids, not people like me and my friends. I heard gunshots and drive bys probably once a month, and once a week during the summer. We kept a loaded gun in every room. At no time did we ever call the police on any of the illegal activities. I guess the police were used to the usual types who rented our house talking to them, because the eventually stopped by one evening after some shots had gone off, I was sitting on the porch the cops walked up in the yard and asked if I knew anything about the incident, I told him I don't talk to the police and I walked inside.

What reason do I have to involve myself? Why should I risk my safety and that of my friends/family for something I know nothing about?

If I go and give the police any help then its gonna come back on me and mine...fuck that noise.

[ellipsis]

We kept a loaded gun in every room.

This is my I listed you as a favorite revleft member and wish we were friends IRL.

[Jimmie Higgins]

What good does calling the cops do in 99.99% of the cases? If someone was being rapped or murdered across the street and you could take photos or something maybe that would be ok to call the cops. Frankly it would be better to yell at the person committing the act that you have already called the cops (while not actually calling the cops) or gather up neighbors to try and intervene.

Otherwise, you report to the cops and tell them you saw someone in the shadows murdering someone and that they were a male between the age of 16-40 and what you think their race may have been and then what? At best it goes unsolved, more likely, the nearest bum is picked up and put away for murder thanks to you.

Poor people in Oakland are definitely supportive of "no snitching" while the local petty bourgoise sees this as a sign of collective insanity. I think we should support "no snitching" in general (it should be case by case) and recognize that people in oppressed or poor communities realize that the cops don't PREVENT shit, don't reduce crime, are a major problem by themselves ON TOP OF CRIME, are INVOLVED in crime, and locking a young person up for robbing or being in a gang or whatever only destroys yet another life.

Maybe it's different in other countries where cops have less power and have to abide more evenly to upholding people's bourgeois rights, but I think radicals in the US should - at the very least - argue that "no snitching" is not "mass-insanity" as the papers portray it as but a reasonable reaction to a system that does more to uphold racism than protect anyone.

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

Personally I abide by the principles laid out by our great theotician, Cam'ron



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTwipn-Fp_U

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

Well, I figure if I can't solve a problem with 30 rounds of 7.62x39 and six of .357 magnum, I am pretty well fucked.

Well this is all kinda theoretical for me, at least in VT as we have the lowest crime rate in the US. If I hear gun shots frequently that is very normal and means a neighbor is shooting in their backyard or it is hunting season. So yah the realities of street crime are not completely known to me.

I did call the cops on a drunk driver once but got cut off so nothing came of it, but my buddy who did the same had to show up to testify for a court date like 1-2hours from his house, which the driver failed to show up for, so he will have to go again.

Well why not phone the police?

Its just one other thing in your favour.

It'd be great if you had some community assocation that could do better than the police, but you don't - so.

[Pavlov's House Party]

If I see some kids drinking in a park I wouldn't call the cops, but in the past I've called 911 when some guy walking from my college to the bus stop got jumped by 3 bigger guys. What the fuck else was I supposed to do, get my ass kicked?

Calling the police might not help the revolution, but neither does getting killed or seriously injured.

[Saorsa]

Once there's a workers militia I'll call that. In the meantime, I'll go for the next best option.. The police are a contradictory group, of course their class enemies and of course they defend capital etc etc, but if someones attacking my neighbour I'm calling the police.

[ellipsis]

Well why not phone the police?

Its just one other thing in your favour.

It'd be great if you had some community assocation that could do better than the police, but you don't - so.
Oh I'd call the police after, but why not resolve the situation yourself.

[Jimmie Higgins]

but if someones attacking my neighbour I'm calling the police.


Oh I'd call the police after, but why not resolve the situation yourself.

It's also just more effective in most working class areas. If you saw someone being attacked, it would probably be better to yell and try and wake up other people in the neighborhood so that the attacker would have to flee. Even better would be to get your neighbors all to come out and protect the attacked person.

If you call anyone, maybe the fire department would be a better option because at least they would be able to help the victim of the attack (even if the attacker is still there, who'd attack someone with an axe anyway?). If you called the cops when you saw someone getting attacked, the incident would be long-over by the time the cops arrived.

My girlfriend came into her work in West Oakland and saw that the bathroom window had been broken and the workshop had been robbed. She came in, called me and her boss and the cops, she waited around for the cops and then began to walk around to take a look at what had been stolen. A few minutes later someone came through the broken window. She saw the intruder and yelled and the intruder left. She again called the cops to say that someone had come in while she was there - about 20 minutes to a half an hour later, the cops showed up and nothing ever came of it anyway.

Most crimes are crimes of opportunity or passion and so a police force really does little to prevent or even punish the appropriate people. Most people from oppressed groups in Oakland know that the cops show up late, show up with way too much force once they do appear (almost every night I see 3 cop cars on the side of the road dealing with one car that was pulled over and yet our liberal mayor keeps talking about how there are too few cops on the streets).

[redasheville]

I avoid calling/dealing with the cops, but I understand that in our society there are situations which may make dealing with cops necessary.

[Holden Caulfield]

I just had this convo with my rather right wing (he not a fascist he is more of a proper workerist) dad. He was saying that if somebody robs you, you chase them down and kill them. But then I explained that everytime somebody killed somebody they would just say they had been robbed by them. I'm all for using force to protect my home, and using enough force that it may kill them (I am sure as fuck not gonna leave the possibility of them getting back up after I hit them once) but I would not go out my way to kill somebody.

I am not so arrogant as to assume that I deserve to be judge jury and executioner. Not all things are as they seem at first glance.

For example certain armed republicans killing drug dealers might be a good thing, but if you think many of them turned into being criminals themselves you see they are just killing off the competition and thus should not be cheered on as the heros of the coming revolution.

[Pogue]

I just had this convo with my rather right wing (he not a fascist he is more of a proper workerist) dad. He was saying that if somebody robs you, you chase them down and kill them. But then I explained that everytime somebody killed somebody they would just say they had been robbed by them. I'm all for using force to protect my home, and using enough force that it may kill them (I am sure as fuck not gonna leave the possibility of them getting back up after I hit them once) but I would not go out my way to kill somebody.

I am not so arrogant as to assume that I deserve to be judge jury and executioner. Not all things are as they seem at first glance.

For example certain armed republicans killing drug dealers might be a good thing, but if you think many of them turned into being criminals themselves you see they are just killing off the competition and thus should not be cheered on as the heros of the coming revolution.

I think that if someone harms you in anyway, i.e. breaks into your home, trys to rob you, etc, any talk of values or rights goes out the window, and thus whether or not you kill them ceases to really be an issue we can moralise about. I know what you mean about it setting s precedent by which anyone could justify murder, which is why this has to be an area where we apply common sense.

Most self defence types, at least the ones that actually matter, like Geoff Thompson, say that you should totally disregard any thought of the law when defending yourself. So that means fighting to disable whoever is trying to harm you.

Obviously it differs from situation to situation. When some dickheaded little kid in the park trys to pick a fight with you, if you don't have to, you shouldn't do them serious damage, but then if someone comes at you with a knife I think you have the right to make sure they never walk again.

I think the reasno why some seemingly reacitonary attitudes come out in this argument is because its an emotive issue. And obviously humans get instinctive when threatened, so some crazy stuff tends to happen. I think you just have to judge cases realistically - if a woman kills a known rapist on a dark street, then we know its most likely a case of self defence (I'd probably call her a hero but w/e), if a well known brawling types smashes someones head into a pavement on a saturday night until they die, then we know its murder.

I think its silly to talk about what you would or would not do though. You don't know. For all the macho talk alot of people might just freeze when attacked, and some seemingly timid people might go bezerk. All I can say is quite frankly I don't know what I'd do excactly but I know I wouldn't be trying to use 'moderate force' if someone broke into my house.

[Holden Caulfield]

^ I agree with you kinda.

People who says we don't need the police or that they wouldnt call them are morons in my book. Some crimes need heavy investigation and need some level of partiality.

Like a case a while ago when I cheered on a German guy who killed a Turkish guy who apparently was abusing his son, but how do I know that is true? I don't. And so I cannot justify such vigilanteism. He could be been a racist making an excuse. I am glad that Devrim by questioning things made me thing about the situation on a deeper level

One time I saw a fight in the street, one guy was losing (not being done in but having a bad time of it) I asked somebody what the crack was they said the one losing had hit somebodies GF, I walked off happy that a nob head was getting what was coming to him. But in hindsight I don't know that is true, they could have been bullying him, or he could have been lied about by somebody to get him hurt.

Again with the republicans who are now little more than petty criminals, alot of people might believe them if they said that they were killing dealers for the sake of the community many would cheer them on. But given closer inspection they are worse than those who they killed.

You are not so special and unbiased, so able to grasp the gravity of a situtation in one moment that you should think you have the power to decide when to call the police and when not to.

I don't see how people who have read my previous posts don't just agree with me, I honestly can't see any argument against what I said.

[ellipsis]

For all the macho talk alot of people might just freeze when attacked
Fuck you Pogue! Come over here and say that!
But you are are right, I am never had to defend myself or kill anything larger than a ground hog, so I don't know what I would do.


You are not so special and unbiased, so able to grasp the gravity of a situtation in one moment that you should think you have the power to decide when to call the police and when not to.
So we should unquestionably call the police if any law is broken in our knowledge?

[Holden Caulfield]

Fuck you Pogue! Come over here and say that!
But you are are right, I am never had to defend myself or kill anything larger than a ground hog, so I don't know what I would do.


So we should unquestionably call the police if any law is broken in our knowledge?

No use some common sense. You see somebody dropping litter, kids drinking, people having a joint, spray painting a well etc etc etc walk on in my opinion.

You see somebody getting their car stolen, their house broken into, their head kicked in, etc etc call the cops.

Its hardly rocket science

[ellipsis]

OK so were are so special and unbiased that we can make those decisions in a lot of cases. Now you've confused me, but don't feel special it is rather easy.

[bricolage]

If you look at the way the state functions and how it secures reliance upon it it is through the monopolisation of the allocation of the provision of necessary services, eg. security, healthcare, education etc. As such it then becomes illegal for you to set up your own school or hospital, or 'take the law into your own hands', for example. In this way the state is seen as benevolent and necessary. Therefore while the police are a repressive state institution this does not mean everything they do is inherently repressive as they are allocated the right to provide such necessary services. In a hypothetical (hypothetical because they could both happen at the exact same time) situation if the option is between getting the police to stop a rape or doing it yourself (violently) and potentially go to jail it's not worth doing the latter just to remain ideologically pure, just as it's not worth trying to boycott every form of good derived from exploitation or trying to achieve a carbon footprint of zero (yet at the same time outside of the hypothetical if someone is being raped and you think you could do something to help I'd like to think most people would try to). We live under states so when we are forced to make use of them this shouldn't be confused as legitimising them. That being said you can utilise the 'cracks' in capitalism to start creating alternatives, neighbourhood watch groups of community protection council type things could quite conceivably fit in here. I think the bottom line is that yes there are principles and there are goals but if letting people get stabbed or raped is a result of these principles then they are quite frankly not worth having.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I think things such as http://www.u.tv/NEWS/New-Law-to-allow-killing-in-self-defence/cc324eac-3c55-42a8-a204-92e9f920e5c0

should be supported.

[Jimmie Higgins]

No use some common sense. You see somebody dropping litter, kids drinking, people having a joint, spray painting a well etc etc etc walk on in my opinion.

You see somebody getting their car stolen, their house broken into, their head kicked in, etc etc call the cops.

Its hardly rocket science

If you are being attacked or repeatedly harassed by someone or in danger in a way that you NEED to call the cops, then sure, do what you have to do. Or if your car is stolen and you need to report it for insurance reasons or so that you won't be held accountable if someone crashes the car... fine, these are understandable reasons.

But seeing a car being stolen or an empty house or store being broken into? What good does calling the cops do? Cops will not recover that car unless it is dumped somewhere and that will be the end of it. If they do any "investigation" it will be to look up nearby ex-felons who have been known to steal cars. If a crime has been comited, then that is that, nothing is going to really change it for the most part and so collaboration with the police will generally only result in someone being locked up and what does that really do?


In a hypothetical (hypothetical because they could both happen at the exact same time) situation if the option is between getting the police to stop a rape or doing it yourself (violently) and potentially go to jail it's not worth doing the latter just to remain ideologically pureWell I agree that this shouldn't be about ideologically or morally purity; but as I see the argument, this point is also kind of a straw-man, because there's also just the practical element that calling the cops doesn't help stop that hypothetical rape either. Unless you see someone kidnapping someone and building a dungeon in their basement to rape that person at some future date, calling the cops is useless in doing anything for that attack victim or the car that's being stolen or the fight that broke out or whatever. Seriously, a whistle or a air horn is a better way to stop an attack or robbery in progress than calling the cops. What happens when you call the cops? By the time they arrive the crime is over; you will be asked to collaborate and identify someone; someone may or may not be arrested for the crime; that person(s) may or may not have done the crime; if they did do the crime, they may or may not have something else harmful at a latter date. So what's really accomplished is that someone will probably be locked up, crime and violence will continue, the arrest and sentencing will be used to justify the existence of the repressive organs of bourgeois legal system. The violence will not be undone, but many tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars will be spent on incarceration, more cops on the street rather than things that would really reduce violence like decent housing, education, and jobs for poor people.

Neither vigilantism or the police are the "solutions" to crime nor are they really all that effective. We live in a crazy society and so people tend to do crazy things in order to get money for themselves or even to get a sense of power over things in their own life (like random violence or joining a gang for protection and respect and money - all of which are scarce for the working poor and workers in general).

Short of a revolution, the best thing we could do would be to attempt to organize our neighborhoods. This will bring together both the people who are tired of seeing crime in their neighborhoods as well as the kids who are targeted and harassed by the cops for the common cause of trying to get jobs and other things that will help us more than what cities (at least in the US) tend to do which is cut programs and throw a bunch of 19 year old yahoos with guns and uniforms and little legal accountability out onto the streets.

In the book "Can't Stop, Won't Stop", Jeff Chang talks about how at the start of the LA gang wars, some priests held a press conference where the leaders of the street gangs laid out their solutions to the gang problem: it read a lot like the Black Panther Party program. They said the main thing was that if people had jobs and hope, they wouldn't need to sell drugs or even do drugs as much.

[Holden Caulfield]

But seeing a car being stolen or an empty house or store being broken into? What good does calling the cops do? Cops will not recover that car unless it is dumped somewhere and that will be the end of it. If they do any "investigation" it will be to look up nearby ex-felons who have been known to steal cars. If a crime has been comited, then that is that, nothing is going to really change it for the most part and so collaboration with the police will generally only result in someone being locked up and what does that really do?
Because if my car was stolen and somebody just watched I would be pissed off to the extreme. My bike once got nicked and the coppers turned up like a week later but I still told them. Mainly because only scum steal from their own, but also because who are you to judge who deserves to have their car stolen or house broken into? My Nan was burgled when she was on holiday, he dead husbands ring was stolen. If the house is empty as in nobody lives there then when not call the cops, I used to live in a house attatched to an empty one and my parents would call the cops if kids broke in because they would start fires and generally smash the shit out the place which stopped my day from sleeping when he was on nights.

I'm not saying there isn't a social cause for crime of course there is, but that isn't an excuse for robbing old ladies or being a nobhead.

I don't buy that 'collaboration' argument. One of my mates was slated for calling the cops by other full on anarchists for giving evidence in court against his girlfriends BNP activist dad who kicked his door down and tried to kick his head in when he found out he was a lefty. I think this is bullshit.
Again if I saw who robbed my nan I would call the cops.
If I found out about paedophillia I would call the cops.
My mum said to me if I killed another guy without reason or it being in self defence she would turn me over to the police, because that is somebodies son (regardless of their class, killing individuals won't bring about the revolution)

[Jimmie Higgins]

Did you get your bike back?

Again, if someone was in an abusive situation and could not get away by themselves or you were being stalked, then yeah, with no alternatives it would be best to call the cops.

For preventing random crime or stopping theft, you'd have more luck yelling "Shazam" and hoping that Captain Marvel shows up.

[RHIZOMES]

What good does calling the cops do in 99.99% of the cases? If someone was being rapped or murdered across the street and you could take photos or something maybe that would be ok to call the cops. Frankly it would be better to yell at the person committing the act that you have already called the cops (while not actually calling the cops) or gather up neighbors to try and intervene.

Otherwise, you report to the cops and tell them you saw someone in the shadows murdering someone and that they were a male between the age of 16-40 and what you think their race may have been and then what? At best it goes unsolved, more likely, the nearest bum is picked up and put away for murder thanks to you.

Poor people in Oakland are definitely supportive of "no snitching" while the local petty bourgoise sees this as a sign of collective insanity. I think we should support "no snitching" in general (it should be case by case) and recognize that people in oppressed or poor communities realize that the cops don't PREVENT shit, don't reduce crime, are a major problem by themselves ON TOP OF CRIME, are INVOLVED in crime, and locking a young person up for robbing or being in a gang or whatever only destroys yet another life.

Maybe it's different in other countries where cops have less power and have to abide more evenly to upholding people's bourgeois rights, but I think radicals in the US should - at the very least - argue that "no snitching" is not "mass-insanity" as the papers portray it as but a reasonable reaction to a system that does more to uphold racism than protect anyone.

I admire your idealism but a lot of places don't have that level of community consciousness, such as where I live.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I admire your idealism but a lot of places don't have that level of community consciousness, such as where I live.

Right, I'm not saying it's automatic or easy or can be accomplished right away, but this, in my opinion, is the way the left has to "take on crime", not by calling the cops about crimes already passed.

In fact, the Black Panthers would not have been able to organize their drug programs and programs for youth if there had not been a general radicalization in society -- particularly among urban blacks in the "north". So I'm not saying that we can stop a murder tomorrow by calling for a community organizing meeting to get jobs in the community.

In the short term we need to propagandize: We just have to point out that individuals are not the root of why there is crime in our society and so policing individuals is doomed to fail. Furthermore, we need to point out the role of the police in society and how things that actually would reduce crime such as housing, jobs, education, security are cut or hurt by flooding the streets with cops and building jails. In California, they are cutting public education while increasing police forces and continuing the construction of prisons... these are not isolated issues, they are connected, the state has chosen repression over the "butter" of public education and the working class pays the price at both ends.

In the near-term we will need to agitate: we will need to support efforts in working class and poor neighborhoods to organize our own working class "solutions" while also exposing the deficiencies and class interests of local and state governments that allow these conditions to continue. We also need to fight 3 strikes laws, increased powers for the police, the construction of more prisons.

Revolution: In the long-term we need to organize for a revolution to change the system that is at the root of crime and random violence in this society.

None of this will be possible if we dismiss "no snitching" sentiments in poor areas or aide the cops in hauling off another teenage gang member or car-radio thief to prison.

[Robocommie]

^ I agree with you kinda.

People who says we don't need the police or that they wouldnt call them are morons in my book. Some crimes need heavy investigation and need some level of partiality.

Like a case a while ago when I cheered on a German guy who killed a Turkish guy who apparently was abusing his son, but how do I know that is true? I don't. And so I cannot justify such vigilanteism. He could be been a racist making an excuse. I am glad that Devrim by questioning things made me thing about the situation on a deeper level

One time I saw a fight in the street, one guy was losing (not being done in but having a bad time of it) I asked somebody what the crack was they said the one losing had hit somebodies GF, I walked off happy that a nob head was getting what was coming to him. But in hindsight I don't know that is true, they could have been bullying him, or he could have been lied about by somebody to get him hurt.

Again with the republicans who are now little more than petty criminals, alot of people might believe them if they said that they were killing dealers for the sake of the community many would cheer them on. But given closer inspection they are worse than those who they killed.

You are not so special and unbiased, so able to grasp the gravity of a situtation in one moment that you should think you have the power to decide when to call the police and when not to.

I don't see how people who have read my previous posts don't just agree with me, I honestly can't see any argument against what I said.

I pretty much agree with what you said here. I also think there's some serious risk to vigilantism because you can rather easily become what you try and defeat. I mean, crime and violence doesn't just come from nowhere. Usually it's part of a cycle, and the reason vigilantism is often a bad thing is because it only contributes to that cycle. One man's idea of justice is not going to necessarily be a restoration of social harmony. Some people think that justice is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. But vendettas and feuds tend to go on for decades like that and get a lot of people killed for what might have been a minor slight in the first place.

[Robocommie]

I shed no tears when a legitimate criminal gets sent down, we can't expect the police to change society because the system would not allow them to do so even if they wanted to. To solve the problems which force people into crime is revolutionary, while sending genuinely bad people to prison is a modest reform. We should support both.


I think the idea of "genuinely bad people" might be a little essentialist. I generally believe people to be the product of their environment, and so "bad people" are people whom the system has failed and are not necessarily beyond reform. Mercy without justice is foolish, but justice without mercy is tyranny, etc etc.

[Holden Caulfield]

I think the idea of "genuinely bad people" might be a little essentialist. I generally believe people to be the product of their environment, and so "bad people" are people whom the system has failed and are not necessarily beyond reform. Mercy without justice is foolish, but justice without mercy is tyranny, etc etc.

You are correct.
The way I like to think about it is what I picked up doing psychology way back in school (I am giving this example loosely but it does apply in a way).

If you beat and mistreat say 100 kids, not all of them will grow up to be 'bad' or violent people who commit crimes, but some will. If you have 100 kids and you make them obsess about food and weigh not all of them will have eating disorders or issues with food but some will.

There is a social cause for crime, but the people are not 'bad people'. I do agree on punishing people who act badly though, in the same way I think the kids should have councilling (obvious differences arise when talking about punishing criminals and treating those with disorders though).

[Pogue]

What would you say about areas where simply the police don't do anything though? Sometimes it just makes sense to go vigilante, you might make mistakes or be too harsh but thats what happens, if it works do it, especially if its with scum. I don't think people should be held back by liberal notions of 'justice' when we live in a world where justice is never upheld, you know whats right, we know that your normal neighbour with no criminal negibhour decking some prick throwing stuff at old peoples windows isn't a vigilante using it as an excuse to get violent, etc.

What it comes down to basically is my idea of organised self defence. I don't want randomers going out and beating who they want, I want ordinary people to be empowered to properly deal with crimes.

[Floyce White]

Gravedigger, here is some ammunition for your argument:

California Civil Code Section 50: Any necessary force may be used to protect from wrongful injury the person or property of oneself, or of a wife, husband, child, parent, or other relative, or a member of one's family, or of a ward, servant, master, or guest.

(Natural persons may use force...)

California Civil Code Section 43: Besides the personal rights mentioned or recognized in the Government Code, every person has, subject to the qualifications and restrictions provided by law, the right of protection from bodily restraint or harm, from personal insult, from defamation, and from injury to his personal relations.

(...so that natural persons may be protected, which will...)

California Civil Code Section 4: . . . . The Code establishes the law of this State respecting the subjects to which it relates, and its provisions are to be liberally construed with a view to effect its objects and to promote justice.

(...effect [the] objects [of Section 43]...)

California Civil Code Section 19: Every person who has actual notice of circumstances sufficient to put a prudent man upon inquiry as to a particular fact, has constructive notice of the fact itself in all cases in which, by prosecuting such inquiry, he might have learned such fact.

(...and you are REQUIRED to find out if your action is needed if you suspect that harm may be happening/have happened/be imminent.

Here's my personal favorite...)

California Civil Code Section 51.7

(a) All persons within the jurisdiction of this state have the right to be free from any violence, or intimidation by threat of violence, committed against their persons or property because of political affiliation, or on account of any characteristic listed or defined in subdivision (b) or (e) of Section 51, or position in a labor dispute, or because another person perceives them to have one or more of those characteristics. The identification in this subdivision of particular bases of discrimination is illustrative rather than restrictive.

(b) This section does not apply to statements concerning positions in a labor dispute which are made during otherwise lawful labor picketing.