Communism sounds like Heaven on Earth to me

[tradeunionsupporter]

Communism sounds like Heaven on Earth to me the idea of a Classless Stateless society with no money and everyone being equal and no need to work as in wage labor sounds like Heaven on Earth to me the only question I have is how can a society work this way ?

[Muzk]

By abolization of private property, meaning no more wage labour, no more classes because noone owns anything he does not need for himself, neither any social instabilities(criminality etc), because there is no reason why you should be jealous. (Or grab someone elses personal property since he owns more than you)

The stateis the one preserving the system, it plays the role of the "defense", through manipulation (media) and oppression (police), it often plays a capitalists role too. Like in india, the state sells areas to capitalists who then literally dictate over them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Economic_Zone , we are much better off without leaders.

Note: Private property means that you own things you don't need for yourself. Like owners of 2 houses. They don't need 2. Or factory owners. Factories are there for everyone.
Property is theft, because you can't really "own" something, you can only live off of it. (Ressources are there for everyone, nature is a part of us)

Communism works in a simple way: "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs", meaning that everyone does what is needed(according to his abilities) to meet everyones standard of living.(according to needs)

Because of factories, technology and destruction of useless jobs (bank clerks for example), every single one of us gains a whole lot more free time to study, have fun or whatever, it is truly heaven on earth.

If we could only get rid of the pollution fast enough... time is running out for us, revolution is needed more than ever.

By the way noone is equal. We are different beings with different needs. We don't want to make everyone equal, we only want equal chances to live for everyone, not for a selected elite.

Now we, the workers, are made equal, reduced to a simple number on a paper: our labour power. We want to stop this so called "alienation" of humans and revert him into his natural form, a cooperative being, who does not live to work, but rather works as a part of his living, to make his life, and that of many others, better, to build a new society based on love, friendship, and equality.

[Drace]

Don't look at it that way because your pre-assuming communism as a utopia.
That's not what we stand for though.
Communists seek to abolish the private means of production and the capitalists as a class to create a society in which the workers own productive property cooperatively.

Sounds a lot more realistic, doesn't it?

"everyone being equal" is a generalized term and it adds a lot of extra things that are not the goals of the communist ideology. For example, the connotation of "Everyone being equal" supposes that everyone will wear the same clothes, think the same, have the same things, be equal in mental capacity.
None of these things is our goal. We only wish to create society in which those who do labor are given choice in how it runs. This will result in a society where people will generally have the same opportunity. They will only be the same financially. Communism doesn't seek to make the individual any less than that makes him an individual.
It rather allows people to fully achieve their life's goal by eliminating financial burdens.

As Marx put it

communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic.

no need to work as in wage labor
I don't understand what you mean by this. Work will still have to exist. Thats not something we can abolish.
What is abolished is "wage labor" which is a capitalist mechanic in which the worker is treated like a commodity and paid a certain amount of money for his labor power.

[Valeofruin]

Someones well on the right track..

Communism IS, for all intensive purposes, Heaven on Earth.

[graffic]

The danger with "utopianism" is that it advances a moral vision that is in no way grounded in historical and social realities.

The idea of "heaven" it self is the most far fetched part of religious belief in my opinion. It's hard to understand "everything" being absolutely perfect because without "bad" things to compare to what is "good"? You can't have one without the other etc etc

I recommend you to read about post-modernism

[ckaihatsu]

Communism IS, for all intensive purposes, Heaven on Earth.


Communism is where humanity gets its shit together so well that God and all the angels become so impressed that they gracefully lower the entire heaven apparatus down onto earth, hence Heaven on Earth.





Work will still have to exist. Thats not something we can abolish.


More realistically -- though this will sound fanciful as well -- our "work" in a truly communist society should consist entirely -- and please excuse the imagery here -- of deciding among ourselves which mechanical slave robots to whip harder. By this I mean that *laborious* work will be done entirely mechanically, so the only thing remaining would be the *collective planning* of how exactly to *use* that mechanical force, and to what ends, to continuously reshape our mass-intentional environment around us.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Communism IS, for all intensive purposes, Heaven on Earth.

http://17.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ks2efvgh571qanttao1_400.jpg

[Kronos]

Communism sounds like Heaven on Earth to me the idea of a Classless Stateless society with no money and everyone being equal and no need to work as in wage labor sounds like Heaven on Earth to me the only question I have is how can a society work this way ?

It'll never happen. Fagettaboutit.

The last great revolutionary step in global politics will be the transition into a kind of international corporatist state socialism. The only fundamental difference in this new system will be the abolition of the privatization of the means of production. Private property and a competitive wage system will still exist, and a micro-free market will function under direct ordinance by the state.

The capitalist parasite will be history. Everybody will work or GTFO (get the fuck out).

Smoke em if you got em, boys.

[Bud Struggle]

Everybody will work or GTFO (get the fuck out).


And everyone will be equal. (Only some will be more equal! ;) )

[Muzk]

I think the restricted should be restricted to only posting in the trashcan.

[Kronos]

And everyone will be equal.Correct. Equally obligated to work and equally privileged to be rewarded for unequal productive capacities.

A meritocracy, my good man.

You don't need to be modest, Bud. I know you have some talent, somewhere, and that you are quite capable at developing some specialization in some field.....other than profiting from other people's labor. So don't tell me you aren't good at anything other than being a capitalist. I don't buy it (pun intended).

[Kronos]

I think the restricted should be restricted to only posting in the trashcan.

I was wondering what you thought about that. Thanks for clearing that up. I'll inform the administrators immediately.

[Bud Struggle]

Correct. Equally obligated to work and equally privileged to be rewarded for unequal productive capacities.

A meritocracy, my good man.

You don't need to be modest, Bud. I know you have some talent, somewhere, and that you are quite capable at developing some specialization in some field.....other than profiting from other people's labor. So don't tell me you aren't good at anything other than being a capitalist. I don't buy it (pun intended).

You mistake me my friend, I have no doubt that I will the the most productive and the best rewarded person in my Soviet.

As a matter of fact--bring on the Revolution! Being the most productive (and best best rewarded) Communist is a challenge that I will find hard to resist. I'm going to end up with a bigger house than I have now without all those workers leaching off of my hard work.

Bring it on Comrades! :hammersickle::star2::hammersickle: To the baracades!

:redstar2000:

[Drace]

I think the restricted should be restricted to only posting in the trashcan.

Opposing Ideologies is just another name for trashcan

[IcarusAngel]

Hey... We've got hayenmill in OI. Listen to what he says. He knows what he's talking about.

[IcarusAngel]

I think in communism and anarchism the mistakes that are made will be because humans are not perfect. For example, if humans decided to use the land for inefficient purposes and ended up wasting resources, that would be a human flaw, but it would be one that could easily be corrected in communism once new methods are discovered by someone in the community.

In capitalism, we have a variety of solutions to problems. They can't be applied because they aren't "cost effective" to the capitalist, and because the capitalist "owns" the land in a static fashion, so he can't be forced to implement the better methods.

This is why so many factories in the US are dilapidated, run down, unsafe, and so on. This is also one of the reason a third of the factories are completely closed down, because no one forced the capitalists into efficiency.

It is clearly the system in this case, capitalism, that is flawed, not just people.

That is a fundamental distinction between left and right theories.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Heaven would involve people never suffering, candy falling from the sky, and orgasms being available at the click of a button.

Communism just involves having enough common sense not to exploit one another and utilize cooperation instead of brutality. How is sharing and cooperation, something small children can do easily, some sort of implausible and overly idealistic idea?

Heaven, again, is unicorns, orgies, and urinating alcohol. It's not the restructuring of political society. Not that heaven exists, of course.

[IcarusAngel]

As I said, the flaws would be human flaws, because communism is a system more in line with true human nature. Humans would be free to make bad decisions in regards to production; they wouldn't be "free" to exploit one another.

[graffic]

Communism just involves having enough common sense not to exploit one another and utilize cooperation instead of brutality. How is sharing and cooperation, something small children can do easily, some sort of implausible and overly idealistic idea?


It's not as if we live in an "anarcho-capitalist" society where people are set on each other like capitalist wolves.

I think that's a massive generalisation to say that a liberal-pluralistic system of western democracy, such as the U.S.A, is fundamentally opposed to "co-operation".

I think the issue is that people are brought up and educated with universal values which naturally conflict with some aspects of marxism. People are encouraged to compete and work towards the image of the idealized rich person, lying on a yacht, living the capitalist dream. I wouldn't say that the entire "capitalist system" lacks common sense and those taking part in it "lack common sense" because most people have been raised in it and have to take part in it in at least some way.

[Valeofruin]

http://17.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ks2efvgh571qanttao1_400.jpg

Blame Lenin:

"Unity in this really revolutionary struggle of the oppressed class for the creation of a paradise on earth is more important to us than unity of proletarian opinion on paradise in heaven." (Socialism and Religion)

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

Yeah it does sound almost heavenly.

To the cynics; compare fedualism to capitalism.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

It's not as if we live in an "anarcho-capitalist" society where people are set on each other like capitalist wolves.

I think that's a massive generalisation to say that a liberal-pluralistic system of western democracy, such as the U.S.A, is fundamentally opposed to "co-operation".

I think the issue is that people are brought up and educated with universal values which naturally conflict with some aspects of marxism. People are encouraged to compete and work towards the image of the idealized rich person, lying on a yacht, living the capitalist dream. I wouldn't say that the entire "capitalist system" lacks common sense and those taking part in it "lack common sense" because most people have been raised in it and have to take part in it in at least some way.

Fair enough, it is a generalization. The basic claims I made are still the same, for the most part. I just avoided having to make the points you made. Certainly, though, everyone taking part in capitalism does not lack common sense. It's not that simple.

[Kovacs]

Heaven is a utopian dream, equality and fairness in economic and social terms are not. Those latter things are not a dream but are things we should question the lack of. Strenuously.

[pastradamus]

I wouldn't say that the entire "capitalist system" lacks common sense and those taking part in it "lack common sense" because most people have been raised in it and have to take part in it in at least some way.

The Capitalist system Has absorbed every worker into its ranks of Paid wage-labourers. It has left nothing between people other than Naked self-interest and callous cash payments, this is its goal. This is what its educational systems teach and this is image capitalism likes to create in its globalised role under its bourgeois mode of production. Every Worker participating in the capitalist system, who, as you've said have been raised in it are not the people running the factories, not the exploiteurs but the people trying to live in its society. The Capitalist system boasts about "free-trade" and its access to private property - Which it has done away with for nine tenths of the population - Common human sense and sociality dosent come into their system but rather Naked Self-Interest, Greed and exploitation.

[lombas]

Like owners of 2 houses. They don't need 2.

Except when you like to spend your summers in Trondheim and winters in Cádiz.

[Kayser_Soso]

Communism sounds like Heaven on Earth to me the idea of a Classless Stateless society with no money and everyone being equal and no need to work as in wage labor sounds like Heaven on Earth to me the only question I have is how can a society work this way ?

Who told you that's what Communism is?

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Blame Lenin:

"Unity in this really revolutionary struggle of the oppressed class for the creation of a paradise on earth is more important to us than unity of proletarian opinion on paradise in heaven." (Socialism and Religion)

http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10071/normal_picard-no-facepalm.jpg

[graffic]

The Capitalist system Has absorbed every worker into its ranks of Paid wage-labourers. It has left nothing between people other than Naked self-interest and callous cash payments, this is its goal. This is what its educational systems teach and this is image capitalism likes to create in its globalised role under its bourgeois mode of production. Every Worker participating in the capitalist system, who, as you've said have been raised in it are not the people running the factories, not the exploiteurs but the people trying to live in its society. The Capitalist system boasts about "free-trade" and its access to private property - Which it has done away with for nine tenths of the population - Common human sense and sociality dosent come into their system but rather Naked Self-Interest, Greed and exploitation.

I agree with what you are saying but it's not like we live in the 19th century and factory owners are exploiting thousands of children. What of the small business owners? Is that naked-self interest, or they trying to feed their family?

I agree that capitalism is un-ethical and unjust but it's not as black and white as some people like to think

I've come to the conclusion that, in marxist terms, there is no longer a "working class" in the UK or America. Sure in Africa for example, it is different. But the rhetoric of "exploitation", "the proletariat" and "laborers" sounds hopelessly outdated to anyone living in an advanced country today

[Kayser_Soso]

I agree with what you are saying but it's not like we live in the 19th century and factory owners are exploiting thousands of children.

Oh they are, just not in your country. They exported that misery, and yes, that does make things difficult for Communists living in imperialist countries.




I've come to the conclusion that, in marxist terms, there is no longer a "working class" in the UK or America. Sure in Africa for example, it is different. But the rhetoric of "exploitation", "the proletariat" and "laborers" sounds hopelessly outdated to anyone living in an advanced country today

The working class still exists so long as there is a class of people who have no other means to survive other than selling their own labor power to a capitalist. If this means that in industrial countries most of those people are selling their labor power in service-oriented jobs, it doesn't change the fact that they are the proletariat.

[Proletar Communist]

Communism is the proletars heaven and capitalism is the stagnation, the financial crisis and the "system" that lie to us day by day.

[Green Dragon]

I agree with what you are saying but it's not like we live in the 19th century and factory owners are exploiting thousands of children. What of the small business owners? Is that naked-self interest, or they trying to feed their family?

I agree that capitalism is un-ethical and unjust but it's not as black and white as some people like to think

I've come to the conclusion that, in marxist terms, there is no longer a "working class" in the UK or America. Sure in Africa for example, it is different. But the rhetoric of "exploitation", "the proletariat" and "laborers" sounds hopelessly outdated to anyone living in an advanced country today

In other words, marx remains as his crtitics, including his contemporaries, have long maintained-- completely clueless.