Arizona sheriff continues illegal raids in immigrant communities.

[Os Cangaceiros]

As well as targets his political enemies:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-na-joe-arpaio12-2009dec12,0,2123666.story

I kind of hope that the Federal government brings down the hammer on this motherfucker.

[9]

I'd like to bring down a hammer on him myself.

[bcbm]

not everyone (http://firesneverextinguished.blogspot.com/2009/12/anarchists-students-and-pissed-off.html) in phoenix likes sheriff joe

[Uncle Ho]

It seems to me like you should be reaching out to the immigrant community more. A handful of college students with black clothes and instruments aren't going to change anything.

[bcbm]

i don't live in arizona

[Uncle Ho]

Oh. Well the people from that link should reach out to the immigrants.

That is assuming they are not just bourgeois lifestylers who are themselves terrified of people with dark skin. If they'd bring musical instruments to a direct action, I fear this may be the case.

[scarletghoul]

There is desperate need for some revolutionary organisation in the immigrant communities (particularly in the USA where they form a huge portion of the population). Especially the illegal immigrants, who are treated as sub-human. Some armed commies need to be there protecting the immigrants from these pigs, at the same time educating organising and mobilising the community.

These ideas are so unoriginal and cliché I feel like an idiot saying them,, but its so annoying that no one seems to be doing this.

[bcbm]

That is assuming they are not just bourgeois lifestylers who are themselves terrified of people with dark skin. If they'd bring musical instruments to a direct action, I fear this may be the case.

yes, we get it, you're a grumpy old man.

[Spawn of Stalin]

There is desperate need for some revolutionary organisation in the immigrant communities (particularly in the USA where they form a huge portion of the population). Especially the illegal immigrants, who are treated as sub-human. Some armed commies need to be there protecting the immigrants from these pigs, at the same time educating organising and mobilising the community.

These ideas are so unoriginal and cliché I feel like an idiot saying them,, but its so annoying that no one seems to be doing this.
I agree completely. If a bunch of Communists got together with guns and patrolled the streets of these communities, and I don't mean just sitting around in cars calling fucking Amnesty whenever they see something going down, I mean proper Huey P. style, then it might at least bring some real attention to the situation, then something could be done about it. But no, Communists would rather stand around on picket lines debating dialectics. American Comrades, where you at?

[bcbm]

i'm sure most immigrant communities would appreciate strangers walking around with guns and antagonizing police.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Probably more so than they appreciate being largely ignored by the left, the people who are supposed to be on their side. You know, maybe scarletghoul's suggestion might be a little over the top, personally I don't believe it is, but you would be forgiven for thinking so, but I think that doing too much is better than doing sod all, and at least when you're out there doing something, no matter pointless the actual action is, you are visible, the working class can see you, they know you are there. I was selling Lalkar down at the local university last week, and a guy came up to me and asked what I was selling, I told him, his response was "wow, I didn't know there was still a Communist Party", I replied "yes there's about a dozen or so actually, you just have to know where to look". The kid bought a paper, in the space of about a minute he went from not knowing there was a Communist Party in Britain, to actually paying for some of its literature. People are more than willing to listen to us, and even help us out, but we need them to know that we actually exist and that we are on their side.

[bcbm]

leftists have been active in the immigrants rights demonstrations and organizing all over the country, so i'm not sure what you mean by "largely ignored." obviously more could be done, but i don't think following around cops with guns is the ticket.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Okay you know what? I'm not going to pretend to know everything about the situation in the United States because the simple fact is that I don't. What I do know is that American Communists have been active for a long ass time and that immigrants still have next to no rights, whatever kind of organising leftists are doing, demonstrating, whatever, it isn't working so it is high time they stepped up their game. I'm not just placing the blame squarely on American Comrades because it's the same here and in a lot of other countries too, but yeah I do think it's time to put down the placards and try something else.

[the last donut of the night]

Oh. Well the people from that link should reach out to the immigrants.

That is assuming they are not just bourgeois lifestylers who are themselves terrified of people with dark skin. If they'd bring musical instruments to a direct action, I fear this may be the case.

Hey, if you're so fucking critical of every other leftist in the world, then how about going by yourself to Arizona and preaching on a soapbox about how you're the only decent revolutionary left.

However, I fear that a) no immigrant will fucking care and b) organizing is about teamwork and solidarity, something you have failed to show. Ever.

[The Red Next Door]

Can someone please kill that mothafucka? put him on ice please

[syndicat]

But if he's very popular, killing him won't solve anything because someone else with the same atttidue would replace him. they'd feel even more entitled to it if he's shot.

i wouldn't recommend communists running around with guns in USA. balance of forces at present is such that they'd be likely to be killed. particularly if they're dark complected. in USA cops can kill people and get away with it. Europeans are not aware of this reality because it's not the same in Europe.

defending a truly mass movement against violence would be a different story. the real need here is mass movement building.

[scarletghoul]

i wouldn't recommend communists running around with guns in USA. balance of forces at present is such that they'd be likely to be killed. particularly if they're dark complected. in USA cops can kill people and get away with it. Europeans are not aware of this reality because it's not the same in Europe.
Dude, my suggestion came straight from the recent history of the USA. It's a tactic that's proven to be highly successful in terms of publicity and raising community conciousness. Read up on the panthers bro, I'm not suggesting some kind of full on guerilla war, but some kind of armed presence to let people know that the left exists.


i'm sure most immigrant communities would appreciate strangers walking around with guns and antagonizing police.
Why would it have to be strangers? I was thinking of immigrants protecting their own communities.

[Jimmie Higgins]

In the bay area we've tried to treat the anti-immigrant bigots like we would the KKK and neo-nazis. For a while the local minutemen group were having rallies on a street-corner in a working class neighborhood that 20 years ago was mostly white but now has a large Indian and Pakistani immigrant community.

I'm glad we did it, but it was also frustrating because it was only anarchists and socialists and we had a hard time bringing more people to these events. US liberals are unbelievably passive and I think many would talk about respecting "free-speech" all the way into nazi gas chambers. Immgrants were understandably nervous about public counter-protests since they realized that any repression by police would be directed at them.

The anti-immigrant fanaticism of the far right in the US is scary and an ongoing problem... in fact I think it will soon heat-up again (after health care, immigrants are the rights next target) and we are likely to see massive scapegoating and reaction directed at immigrants. We really need to take this seriously now because the bigots are still organizing around this and we need to be prepared for when they get their act together again.

[Jimmie Higgins]

i wouldn't recommend communists running around with guns in USA. balance of forces at present is such that they'd be likely to be killed. particularly if they're dark complected. in USA cops can kill people and get away with it. Europeans are not aware of this reality because it's not the same in Europe.

I remember going to a counterprotest against a nazi concert in Southern California. When the nazis found out we were coming they canceled. There were no cops to be seen at the location, but occasionally they would drive by. A few Nazis also drove past - I guess they didn't get the memo about the cancellation. A truck with a confederate flag drove by twice and then jumped his truck onto the sidewalk and hit a couple of counter-protesters. They were driven off by their friends to the hospital, but no cops showed up. Then as we were leaving, the cops jumped out from behind a nearby warehouse and pulled over a bunch of anarchists in the car ahead of us.

At one of the anti-minutemen rallies I went to, one of our comrades had her foot run over by someone who was yelling racist epitaphs at us. The cops ticketed our comrade for attacking a car or being in the street or something.

[Raúl Duke]

There is desperate need for some revolutionary organisation in the immigrant communities (particularly in the USA where they form a huge portion of the population). Especially the illegal immigrants, who are treated as sub-human. Some armed commies need to be there protecting the immigrants from these pigs, at the same time educating organising and mobilising the community.

These ideas are so unoriginal and cliché I feel like an idiot saying them,, but its so annoying that no one seems to be doing this.

i'm sure most immigrant communities would appreciate strangers walking around with guns and antagonizing police. I've actually thought about that idea...

except it shouldn't be leftists (the way it's worded implies an outside force) but the community itself should defend and better itself in a way similar to the old "Black Panthers."

However, I'm not even completely sure it's a good idea (i.e. the black panthers suffered much repression, some say due to the "self-defence" clause which was seen by the establishment as "pro-violence" clause) but I guess in a situation like Arizona I would actually support immigrants shooting down racist cops in communitarian self-defense.

[Robocommie]

Might be a good idea to talk to these folks about whether they'd like to form a self-defence league, and if so, maybe get some money together, buy guns (legal ones) and hand them over, make sure they get training.

Though, it could provoke violent reprisals because of the state monopoly on violence.

[The Douche]

Might be a good idea to talk to these folks about whether they'd like to form a self-defence league, and if so, maybe get some money together, buy guns (legal ones) and hand them over, make sure they get training.

Though, it could provoke violent reprisals because of the state monopoly on violence.

I know you don't realise it, but you're advocating a felony here. Thats called a straw purchase, you can't buy a gun for somebody else. Also, "illegal" immigrants cannot legally own firearms in the US.

Euros, what is the left doing in your country in this situation?! Telling americans to get guns and wander the ghetto is assinine.

[Robocommie]

I know you don't realise it, but you're advocating a felony here. Thats called a straw purchase, you can't buy a gun for somebody else. Also, "illegal" immigrants cannot legally own firearms in the US.

I didn't say nothing if you didn't see nothing!

But fair point. Eventually however, running a revolution is going to require a massive string of felonies.

[syndicat]

Dude, my suggestion came straight from the recent history of the USA. It's a tactic that's proven to be highly successful in terms of publicity and raising community conciousness. Read up on the panthers bro, I'm not suggesting some kind of full on guerilla war, but some kind of armed presence to let people know that the left exists.


well, "dude", where has it "proven to be highly successful in terms of publicity" lately? The Panthers were in the '60s...and the cops killed a bunch of them and broke up their organization...tho not necessarily because they were carrying guns. In any event, things have changed. The USA has become more repressive, and more anti-gun legislation has been passed...a lot of it due to stupid liberals.

[Jimmie Higgins]

well, "dude", where has it "proven to be highly successful in terms of publicity" lately? The Panthers were in the '60s...and the cops killed a bunch of them and broke up their organization...tho not necessarily because they were carrying guns. In any event, things have changed. The USA has become more repressive, and more anti-gun legislation has been passed...a lot of it due to stupid liberals. And after the panthers became infamous, Gov. Regan pushed for gun restrictions in urban areas... the quickest way to get right-wingers to do a 180 on gun rights is for them to see armed black radicals.

On the subject at hand, considering that the minutemen arm themselves, if we tired to confront them with our own weapons, basically be are asking for a shootout leading to our side, not the minutemen being blamed and prosecuted.

One of the ways the right-wing tries to claim the "majority" position on this issue is through the invisibility of immigrants in our society and their isolation. The way forward is to build confident mass counter-protests with immigrants in the lead but with plenty of multi-racial allies there to show that this is an issue of civil rights for all workers.

A shootout followed by heavy-handed police repression and "monitoring" of immigrant communities and immigrant rights groups would not lead to confidence in undocumented immigrant communities which are usually intimidated into silence.

The tactics of the Panthers worked because it was at the height of black radicalism and racial tensions. There were riots in almost every major city each summer from the mid-60s to the end of the decade. Malcolm X was already assassinated but had been talking about black militants arming themselves against the racists. Also the Panthers guns were largely symbolic and they always stressed that their best weapon was knowing how to use bourgeois rights against the pigs since racist cops expected to be able to be able to freely ignore the rights we supposedly have in the US.

If immigrant communities start regularly being attacked by racist vigilantes, there may be calls for armed self-defense and that should be supported. But showing up to counter armed racists at this point in the struggle is just asking for punishment and failure. You can't force the kind of high levels of radical consciousness that existed in the black power movement or more radical labor battles in the 30s or other periods of radicalism.

[The Red Next Door]

But if he's very popular, killing him won't solve anything because someone else with the same atttidue would replace him. they'd feel even more entitled to it if he's shot.

i wouldn't recommend communists running around with guns in USA. balance of forces at present is such that they'd be likely to be killed. particularly if they're dark complected. in USA cops can kill people and get away with it. Europeans are not aware of this reality because it's not the same in Europe.

defending a truly mass movement against violence would be a different story. the real need here is mass movement building. i am american

[syndicat]

if you're an American you should be aware of the reality I was referring to. if anyone in any organization I belong to starts talking about us getting guns, I'd be inclined to suspect that person of being a cop.

[Uncle Ho]

The solution is not for us, nearly indistinguishable from the oppressors, to ride in on our white horses and save the poor immigrants from oblivion.

The solution is for us to organize, educate and agitate so they can save themselves. As for self-defense organizations, I agree with the concept, but if you go down that route you must remember the brutality that the Government is willing to unleash to stop you.

Many Lakota still remember the CIA trained death squads raping and pillaging their way through the Rez. Unfortunatley for them, no one else does.

[Robocommie]

well, "dude", where has it "proven to be highly successful in terms of publicity" lately? The Panthers were in the '60s...and the cops killed a bunch of them and broke up their organization...tho not necessarily because they were carrying guns. In any event, things have changed. The USA has become more repressive, and more anti-gun legislation has been passed...a lot of it due to stupid liberals.

Yeah, fair point. It's a bad idea. In any case, it would be good to make contact with some immigrant groups and see about organizing non-violently.

[Guerrilla22]

Not this guy again... Sherrif Joe thinks life imitates John Wayne movies. He's a joke, even for someone in law enforcement.

[Robocommie]

Not this guy again... Sherrif Joe thinks life imitates John Wayne movies. He's a joke, even for someone in law enforcement.

He's like a redneck J. Edgar Hoover. Only not as clandestine, which probably means he'll be going down in flames eventually.

[rararoadrunner]

Comrades, the topic of this thread is an excellent case-study of confronting fascism, for this Sheriff is a classic fascist demagogue with an equally fascist following...

...So what is to be done?

What I would like to see is for someone to issue this Sheriff a "salvaconducta"...that is, a safe-conduct pass...which allows him to leave occupied Mexican land for a limited time without interference or threat of violence.

If he chose to stay past the expiration date of the safe-conduct pass...well, it would be revoked. Simple as that!

But, of course, what I would like to see and what we are likely to see are two different things altogether.

Maybe the Feds will tire of his encroachments upon their jurisdiction, maybe not (if so, Federal marshals wouldn't need to give him a choice of whether or not to comply with their orders: automatic arrest if he fails to comply). We shall see...

...Meanwhile, of course, it is up to the communities under attack to devise and execute their fightback strategies: we can suggest alternatives, offer what assistance we can...but in the end, it's up to them.

Following this situation with interest, hasta pronto, y a la victoria, siempre, MKO.

[The Red Next Door]

if you're an American you should be aware of the reality I was referring to. if anyone in any organization I belong to starts talking about us getting guns, I'd be inclined to suspect that person of being a cop. i wasn't serious i should made it clear that i was joking. but seriously i find this digesting and something should be done by the president. but yet again........