Berlusconi attacked (aftermath)

[New Tet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4Rkelm1yh8&feature=player_embedded

[rednordman]

WTF! When did this happen?

[The Essence Of Flame Is The Essence Of Change]

And now the Italian government and press are going to overdramatize this event calling it a ''threat against democracy'' or ''a brutal fascist action'' while his police and neo-blackshirt ''citizen militia'' thugs beat up immigrants every day..like we haven't seen that before:rolleyes:

Anyway did they catch the one who assaulted him?I didn't manage to listen when I heard it on the news and I don't know italian to understand from the video :(

[Stranger Than Paradise]

WTF! When did this happen?

Earlier today, the guy got arrested.

All I can think or say is :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Pogue]

A drink for whoever did that I think.

[Communist Pear]

I would have laughed really hard at this, if I don't know this is only going to turn him into a martyr and make him more popular. :(

[New Tet]

To anyone who objects to the sexist reference in the title, I'd like to suggest an alternate one: "I breaka you face!"

[Communist Pear]

The actual hit: http://www.la7.it/news/dettaglio_video.asp?id_video=34164&cat=politica

[New Tet]

I would have laughed really hard at this, if I don't know this is only going to turn him into a martyr and make him more popular. :(

Not among the Italians.

In Italy, to get punched in the face for being a sexist, racist, fascist son-of-a-***** is no martyrdom.

[rednordman]

I would have laughed really hard at this, if I don't know this is only going to turn him into a martyr and make him more popular. :(I'm rather optimistic that this is not going to happen. Infact it wouldnt surprise me if this guy who hit him was a liberal or capitalist supporter.

[Communist Pear]

Infact it wouldnt surprise me if this guy who hit him was a liberal or capitalist supporter.
Why do you think that?

[Delenda Carthago]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzfY-aXGcBY

:laugh:

[Das war einmal]

Some mentally-ill patient threw a miniature at his head, according to the latest update.

[pierrotlefou]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[rednordman]

Why do you think that?Because he is simply a shit politican, no matter what side of the political spectrum.

[rednordman]

Some mentally-ill patient threw a miniature at his head, according to the latest update.:laugh:I wish that was true:D

[Das war einmal]

The real mentally ill patient is Berlusconi himself of course...

[Искра]

His face reminds me of this (http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/muss3.jpg) :)

[rednordman]

His face reminds me of this (http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/muss3.jpg) :)Fucking hell, is that Mussolinli? I have only ever seen that actual footage of him and his wife getting dragged around town by their feet.

[NecroCommie]

WHAT THE FUCK!?!? What kind of brown bear hit him?! No "***** slap" could ever do that damage! :ohmy: It looks like someone lobbed a fucking planet in his face! But yeah, he deserves every little bit. ;)

[Искра]

Yup, that's Mussolini hanged after good beating. Not a pleasant view, so that's why I put this as a link instead of uploading picture here.

[Q]

This made my day, finally that asshole got what was coming to him :)


His face reminds me of this (http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/muss3.jpg) :)

Don't get your hopes up :lol:

[Искра]

WHAT THE FUCK!?!? What kind of brown bear hit him?! No "***** slap" could ever do that damage! :ohmy: It looks like someone lobbed a fucking planet in his face!
Guy had a sculpture of cathedral in his fist when he hit him.

[rednordman]

Guy had a sculpture of cathedral in his fist when he hit him.:ohmy:er...Must have been a communist or anarchist then.

[Искра]

:ohmy:er...Must have been a communist or anarchist then.
Italy's full of people who sell sculptures of cathedrals... They are quite heavy...
Any way - good job :)

[rednordman]

Italy's full of people who sell sculptures of cathedrals... They are quite heavy...
Any way - good job :)He could at least been wearing a knuckle duster as well.

[Jimmie Higgins]

"What they've done to Berlusconi is an act of terrorism," said Umberto Bossi, head of the far-right Northern League and a close Berlusconi ally.

What they've done? The "cult of the model throwers" is attacking Italy?

Nice example of fascist thinking there... They've done it... the Jews, the gypsies, the take your pick.

[Искра]

What they've done? The "cult of the model throwers" is attacking Italy?

Nice example of fascist thinking there... They've done it... the Jews, the gypsies, the take your pick.
Yup...

But nothing new.

I have comrades in prison because police assumes that they have throw molotov cocktail which haven't even broke a window.

[Das war einmal]

I would not be surprised if this was all put in to scene to counter the negative attention towards Berlusconi

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I'm as happy as anyone about this, but I also find the title of this thread highly objectionable

[scarletghoul]

Fuck yeah.

[Robocommie]

Yup, that's Mussolini hanged after good beating. Not a pleasant view, so that's why I put this as a link instead of uploading picture here.

You gotta warn a dude though man! I just ate! Eh, you're alright.

[Das war einmal]

Its really strange that he seems to have such lousy security and he stepped out of the car after he got in after he was punched, to look around, not something you would likely do after a personal attack

[Spawn of Stalin]

Yup, that's Mussolini hanged after good beating. Not a pleasant view, so that's why I put this as a link instead of uploading picture here.
Not a pleasant view? What in the name of Stalin are you talking about, it's beautiful!

Anyway, this is excellent news, here's to more people punching out bigots like Berlusconi.

[Искра]

Not a pleasant view? What in the name of Stalin are you talking about, it's beautiful!

I don't see how can someone twisted face be beautiful, it's disturbing no mater who the person is (or in this case was).
My sentence was about aesthetics not politics.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Well he looks better with his face mangled and the same goes for Berlusconi.

[Angry Young Man]

Because he is simply a shit politican, no matter what side of the political spectrum.

He's shit because he's hubristic and he's hubristic because the entire Italian right is jammed up his hoop. Like Thatcher.

[Robocommie]

Not a pleasant view? What in the name of Stalin are you talking about, it's beautiful!


Man, you creep me out.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

What in the name of Stalin are you talking about

And we have a serious contender to the prized twat of the year award.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Comrades you are all such fun.

:)

[rednordman]

I don't see how can someone twisted face be beautiful, it's disturbing no mater who the person is (or in this case was).
My sentence was about aesthetics not politics.Its beautiful, because its poetic justice. How many times have we witnessed a leftwing triumph over the right? Sometimes we need to behold actual justice. It isnt really about aesthetics regardless.

[Robocommie]

Its beautiful, because its poetic justice. How many times have we witnessed a leftwing triumph over the right? Sometimes we need to behold actual justice. It isnt really about aesthetics regardless.

There was a time in Mussolini's life when he had the potential to be something other than the monster he became, even if you have to go back to his childhood to find that time. When a person is killed, even if it DOES serve the cause of justice, it has to be done with the understanding that it's not a whole and unadulterated good because it means the destruction of a human life.

[Spawn of Stalin]

I don't know about you pal but if you ask me human life loses its worth when a person decides to become a fascist wanker, you think the world would be a better place if Mussolini had been put in prison instead of executed? The man was a waste of space and a real stain on the place we call Earth. So rejoice! Mussolini is dead! And he ain't coming back!

[ComradeMan]

Minchia!!!!

That's one chief of security who's out of a job.

[Robocommie]

I don't know about you pal but if you ask me human life loses its worth when a person decides to become a fascist wanker, you think the world would be a better place if Mussolini had been put in prison instead of executed? The man was a waste of space and a real stain on the place we call Earth. So rejoice! Mussolini is dead! And he ain't coming back!

I know it's wrong when the capitalist state executes a person, I don't see how it changes things when a socialist state does it, because the same arguments would apply.

I'm not necessarily saying Mussolini should have been killed, let's just not start waxing poetic and noble about the hamburgered faces of our enemies. Seriously, for the sake of our humanity, a picture like that should be a source of revulsion only.

[Das war einmal]

Seriously comrades, doesn't anyone else think its probably a set up, due to Berlusconi's declining popularity and the coming elections?

[Intifadah]

a paypal account should be set up so we can pay the persons bail

[Spawn of Stalin]

I know it's wrong when the capitalist state executes a person, I don't see how it changes things when a socialist state does it, because the same arguments would apply.

I'm not necessarily saying Mussolini should have been killed, let's just not start waxing poetic and noble about the hamburgered faces of our enemies. Seriously, for the sake of our humanity, a picture like that should be a source of revulsion only.
Revulsion? You mean inspiration? Or maybe motivation? The end of Mussolini's rule and his death were great achievements for all of progressive humankind. And yes I'm glad that he got all disfigured like that, does this make me a sick person? Perhaps, but he really didn't deserve any better. Justice is a beautiful thing.

[ComradeMan]

I wouldn't get carried away.
1. The person who did this seems to have severe mental problems and has been undergoing treatment for 10 years- according to the news.
2. The attack has received widespread condemnation from all sides in Italian politics.

All this means is that our rights will be even more curtailed in the name of security etc and Berlusconi's side will feel they have some moral highground.

Personally, I don't believe in physical violence and attack unless we are talking about self-defence.

Yet again Italy's name is dragged through the mud.

[Robocommie]

Revulsion? You mean inspiration? Or maybe motivation? The end of Mussolini's rule and his death were great achievements for all of progressive humankind. And yes I'm glad that he got all disfigured like that, does this make me a sick person? Perhaps, but he really didn't deserve any better. Justice is a beautiful thing.

There are mass graves all over the world filled with somebody's idea of justice.

[Hit The North]

Some mentally-ill patient threw a miniature at his head, according to the latest update.

Yes, the pity is that it took a mentally ill man to do what any sane Italian should have done years ago.

[ComradeMan]

There are mass graves all over the world filled with somebody's idea of justice.

Too right!!!

[bcbm]

I wouldn't get carried away.
1. The person who did this seems to have severe mental problems and has been undergoing treatment for 10 years- according to the news.

yes, of course. those who lash out today are always insane, probably terrorists, and of course isolated. this smear becomes more and more common.

"When they are caught, actors in the Imaginary Party are made into isolated individuals, insane deviants who are to be quickly disposed of. Authority cannot admit the existence of the Imaginary Party for one reason: the Imaginary Party is just another word for the population. And the population is never allowed to be against authority."


2. The attack has received widespread condemnation from all sides in Italian politics.

i would be more interested in the reactions of the average italian.


All this means is that our rights will be even more curtailed in the name of security etc and Berlusconi's side will feel they have some moral highground.

Personally, I don't believe in physical violence and attack unless we are talking about self-defence.

we don't have to find this action strategically sound to appreciate that the dumb fucker got a small taste of what he deserves.


Yet again Italy's name is dragged through the mud.

what?

[leninpuncher]

Cool. I hope punching overtakes shoe-throwing as the trendy new thing to do to politicians.

Maybe in a few years we'll be shooting them.

[Spawn of Stalin]

There are mass graves all over the world filled with somebody's idea of justice.
Good argument against justice. Perhaps instead we should instead work towards injustice.

[Sam_b]

This thread full of spam and 'lol' nonsense should be tiehr in chit-chat, or trashed.

[New Tet]

This thread full of spam and 'lol' nonsense should be tiehr in chit-chat, or trashed.

Chill out, man!

[anticap]

The actual hit: http://www.la7.it/news/dettaglio_video.asp?id_video=34164&cat=politica

That marketing-symbol/brand of his, the circular thing with the curvy lines, is interesting. Did Obama copy that, or was it the other way around? Which came first?

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/31/image1nx.jpg

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/940/image2v.jpg

Here's Berlusconi's in '06:

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/4034/image3ql.jpg

Maybe there was a bit of back-and-forth.

[Robocommie]

Good argument against justice. Perhaps instead we should instead work towards injustice.

Sure, cause that's the only two options, slaver over photographs of bloody corpses, or serve injustice.

You know, this isn't even about violent or non-violent means of achieving Socialism, motionless. My concern is that you seem all too comfortable with the prospect of opening veins. The saying is "By any means necessary" and the last word is key.

[Glenn Beck]

Good news out of Italy for a change.

[Revy]

That marketing-symbol/brand of his, the circular thing with the curvy lines, is interesting. Did Obama copy that, or was it the other way around? Which came first?

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/31/image1nx.jpg

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/940/image2v.jpg

Here's Berlusconi's in '06:

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/4034/image3ql.jpg

Maybe there was a bit of back-and-forth.

I think that's a coincidence...the first two logos aren't that similar if you look closely.

[anticap]

I think that's a coincidence...the first two logos aren't that similar if you look closely.

They're not identical, obviously; but I think they're similar enough to ponder. Marketing is a huge part of politics, remember. They're selling a brand. I can speculate that Berlusconi's people noticed the popularity of Obama's "O" logo, so they sexed-up the old Berlusconi circle with some sweeping lines.

[mosfeld]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4Rkelm1yh8&feature=player_embedded

***** deserved it


I know it's wrong when the capitalist state executes a person, I don't see how it changes things when a socialist state does it, because the same arguments would apply.

I'm not necessarily saying Mussolini should have been killed, let's just not start waxing poetic and noble about the hamburgered faces of our enemies. Seriously, for the sake of our humanity, a picture like that should be a source of revulsion only. As a socialist you shouldn't view everything in such a shitty, moralist and liberal fashion. You should try and view everything in terms of class struggle. We don't condemn things from a moralist perspective.. I mean there's nothing inherently bad about the death penalty. When our class enemies get executed we don't weep and whine, we either celebrate, nod our heads.. whatever we do, we should never feel bad about it, because its a small victory for our side. The reason Im against the death penalty in Amerika because it's run by an obviously reactionary, anti-working class and fucked up racist government, but I don't condemn the firing squads during the Russian revolution, for example, because they shot our class enemies, not our class allies like the one in Amerika does.

[RadioRaheem84]

Anybody notice how shocked he looked? It was more of a "how could this happen to ME" look than anything else.

[RadioRaheem84]

As a socialist you shouldn't view everything in such a shitty, moralist and liberal fashion. You should try and view everything in terms of class struggle. We don't condemn things from a moralist perspective.. I mean there's nothing inherently bad about the death penalty. When our class enemies get executed we don't weep and whine, we either celebrate, nod our heads.. whatever we do, we should never feel bad about it, because its a small victory for our side. The reason Im against the death penalty in Amerika because it's run by an obviously reactionary, anti-working class and fucked up racist government, but I don't condemn the firing squads during the Russian revolution, for example, because they shot our class enemies, not our class allies like the one in Amerika does.

Don't know about all that. :(

[Jimmie Higgins]

***** deserved itWomen deserve to get slapped and hit?!! Take a cue from Huey P. Newton and don't use the language of ruling class bigotry and oppression to show your opposition to oppressive bigots.


As a socialist you shouldn't view everything in such a shitty, moralist and liberal fashion. You should try and view everything in terms of class struggle. Yeah, therefore the mob attack on Mussolini doesn't really do much - he was already out of power and his reign was over.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's more than understandable that people suffering oppression under fascism or any system would do this to their oppressor - just imagine what people would have done to George Bush if the US had been toppled and he was caught in a depressed area while trying to flee the country. But in the big picture of the class struggle, Mussolini's gruesome death was hardly some significant event. And furthermore, hardly something that's in anyway beautiful. He was a monster and he met a monstrous fate and it should be left at that. I don't shed a tear for him; I may have never been a farmboy, but I agree with Malcolm X that the chickens coming home to roost never did make me sad; they always made me glad. Never the less it's sick to see things like this as beautiful. It's not political, it's emotional and it should just be seen as another reason that we need another system so that the barbarism of the fascists is ancient history.


We don't condemn things from a moralist perspective.. I mean there's nothing inherently bad about the death penalty. When our class enemies get executed we don't weep and whine, we either celebrate, nod our heads.. whatever we do, we should never feel bad about it, because its a small victory for our side. The reason Im against the death penalty in Amerika because it's run by an obviously reactionary, anti-working class and fucked up racist government, but I don't condemn the firing squads during the Russian revolution, for example, because they shot our class enemies, not our class allies like the one in Amerika does.I sort of agree about the death penalty, but the question here is do you glorify and fetishize the corpses of fascists or counter-revolutionaries as some kind of political victory?

[anticap]

As a socialist you shouldn't view everything in such a shitty, moralist and liberal fashion. You should try and view everything in terms of class struggle. We don't condemn things from a moralist perspective..

Moral outrage is the very root of socialism and the class struggle. The distinction between utopian and scientific socialism says nothing about why we care in the first place.


I mean there's nothing inherently bad about the death penalty.

Nor is there anything inherently good about it. It's a decision we can make when we have enemies in custody. We can make our decision on either (1) moral grounds (e.g., "you've wronged us, and now we're going to make you pay"), or (2) practical grounds (e.g., "if we let you live, then we'll have to feed you").

The problem with (1), aside from the fact that it contradicts your morally indignant stance against moral indignation, is that it implies acceptance of the nonsensical free-will doctrine (http://www.marxists.org/archive/beer/1907/01/free-will.htm), with its conception of praise and blame. As Bertrand Russell put it (and please spare me the moral outrage at my quoting an anti-Leninist): "If, when a man writes a poem or commits a murder, the bodily movements involved in his act result solely from physical causes, it would seem absurd to put up a statue to him in the one case and to hang him in the other." We can look for the causal actors behind the things we oppose (e.g., the capitalists behind capitalism), and take measures to thwart them, but it would seem absurd to hang them when we can just as easily detain them.

And that brings us to (2): If we're in a position to execute someone, then we're in a position to detain them. If we choose the former, on practical grounds like saving resources, then we've accepted the "profits over people" doctrine of the very capitalists we've detained!

By declaring ourselves socialists, we've declared our belief in the dignity of human life. Unless we accept the ridiculous claim that out of all the matter in the universe, one particular species of ape has managed to step outside the causal chain -- a claim which, incidentally, has been laid as the cornerstone of innumerable ruling-class doctrines -- we've got to accept that our enemies behave as they do for reasons often beyond them. There is dignity in their lives as well, and we can educate those willing to change (here's where the OI-restricted readers wish they could write "re-education camps!"), or humanely detain those who refuse, where they can't engage in activities we've deemed morally unacceptable.


When our class enemies get executed we don't weep and whine, we either celebrate, nod our heads..

To celebrate it is to take a moral position on it.


whatever we do, we should never feel bad about it, because its a small victory for our side.

Stopping a capitalist is a small victory; but stopping him doesn't imply killing him.


... the death penalty in Amerika ... [is] run by an obviously reactionary, anti-working class and fucked up racist government...

Indeed it is, and I share your moral outrage at that fact.


... but I don't condemn the firing squads during the Russian revolution, for example, because they shot our class enemies, not our class allies like the one in Amerika does.

Another problem with this attitude, aside from those I've already stated, is that it assumes that we've arrived at the ultimate "truth." I happen to agree with you that capitalism is morally wrong, but I can't prove it. Marx showed how capitalism works, and proved conclusively that it is exploitative, but even he couldn't prove that capitalism is "bad." That's a distinction that each of us has to make for ourselves, based on our morals. Every war in history has been fought between opposing sides that each believed it was fighting for good. Yet no historian can tell you which side was right. Quoting Russell again: "War does not determine who is right -- only who is left." I'm not opposed to fighting our enemies, or to killing them in battle, but I am opposed to repeating the eternal mistake of pretending that we've arrived at the ultimate truth and that it gives us carte blanche to violate human dignity.

[RedAnarchist]

I've edited the title as that word did not need to be in there.

[ZeroNowhere]

So... Now what?

[ComradeMan]

All the people who are lauding this dubious event...

What is the message? I don't like you and what you say so I can hit you in the face with a brick?

Classic fascist thinking if you ask me.

[Patchd]

All the people who are lauding this dubious event...

What is the message? I don't like you and what you say so I can hit you in the face with a brick?

Classic fascist thinking if you ask me.
Tactics cannot be considered 'fascist', unless I'm mistaken, people have been beating each other up before the emergence of fascism. I think the message is more; "this man is responsible for not only the targeting of, intimidating and generally spreading the will to violently confront minorities, but he has also attacked the working class in favour of business (obviously) whilst maintaining links with anti-working class mafias ... therefore, totally justified."

[Искра]

What is the message? I don't like you and what you say so I can hit you in the face with a brick?

Comrades, isn't that what they do to our comrades all the time?

I don't see why shouldn't proletariat strike their class enemies even with this, maybe meaningless, action? We are just showing them that they are not Gods and that they can bleed. We are not afraid of them. Power is ours.

[rednordman]

I don't know about you pal but if you ask me human life loses its worth when a person decides to become a fascist wanker, you think the world would be a better place if Mussolini had been put in prison instead of executed? The man was a waste of space and a real stain on the place we call Earth. So rejoice! Mussolini is dead! And he ain't coming back!True that. If he had only been put in prison, there is still the chance that world opinion could have changed and that he could have come back even stronger. Just imagine how many people would have sought hard for his release. If not Fascists in Italy, fascists over the world. Same could be said about Hitler too.

After all, you still had nazi sympathisers after WW2. To have there idols simply behind bars would have given them inspiration to never give up.

In that sense, hitlers cult of personality was his own demise because he forced the notion to the german people that without him, the german empire would be destroyed. Only he could lead them. Thus his death was a symbolic way of enforcing the death of his nazi empire dream in the minds of his supporters (none of them could ever take the helm).

The same can be said about all other far-right leaders in history. They embodied and personified there own movements. There movements could only ever really have lasted as long as their own lifetimes.

[RHIZOMES]

All the people who are lauding this dubious event...

What is the message? I don't like you and what you say so I can hit you in the face with a brick?

Classic fascist thinking if you ask me.

I'd gladly hit any CEO in the face with a brick.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I'd gladly hit any CEO in the face with a brick.

News anchor: "We just received word that... apparently Warren Buffet was hit in the face with what has been reported to be a brick. Now we are just receiving word that the brick-thrower is from New Zealand... apparently in their culture, throwing a brick at someones face is a traditional sign of disrespect much like throwing shoes at someones face is a sign of disrespect in the Middle East."

[Revy]

The title went from offensive to nonsensical...he obviously wasn't slapped...unless someone had hands of steel.

[RedAnarchist]

The title went from offensive to nonsensical...he obviously wasn't slapped...unless someone had hands of steel.

I'll change it to "attacked", then.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Sure, cause that's the only two options, slaver over photographs of bloody corpses, or serve injustice.

You know, this isn't even about violent or non-violent means of achieving Socialism, motionless. My concern is that you seem all too comfortable with the prospect of opening veins. The saying is "By any means necessary" and the last word is key.
I'm comfortable with the prospect of opening veins because I'm fairly well convinced that it will be necessary. Although I can't say that I enjoy the idea of people dying I am not going to cry over a picture of the Godfather of fascism, and I won't pretend that I'm apathetic to such pictures either because frankly, the defeat of fascism in Europe makes me feel great. One of the great things about Benito Mussolini's capture and execution is that it was working class Partisans who were responsible for it, he wasn't captured by Britain, or the United States, he was captured by Communists, this was not a symbolic act of murder, or a show execution, this was simply the working class giving a fascist exactly what he deserved.

[Dimentio]

***** deserved it

As a socialist you shouldn't view everything in such a shitty, moralist and liberal fashion. You should try and view everything in terms of class struggle. We don't condemn things from a moralist perspective.. I mean there's nothing inherently bad about the death penalty. When our class enemies get executed we don't weep and whine, we either celebrate, nod our heads.. whatever we do, we should never feel bad about it, because its a small victory for our side. The reason Im against the death penalty in Amerika because it's run by an obviously reactionary, anti-working class and fucked up racist government, but I don't condemn the firing squads during the Russian revolution, for example, because they shot our class enemies, not our class allies like the one in Amerika does.

And when you become the class enemy of the "Worker's government" led by the "brave vanguardist party leading the working class to its bright red future"? Would you cheer then?

[Robocommie]

And when you become the class enemy of the "Worker's government" led by the "brave vanguardist party leading the working class to its bright red future"? Would you cheer then?

Basically. Armed struggle isn't wrong when it truly advances the cause of justice, but acting like a bunch of Gestapo assholes not only makes us no better than the fascists, it's also not so much fun when a rival tendency is in power.

[Robocommie]

As a socialist you shouldn't view everything in such a shitty, moralist and liberal fashion. You should try and view everything in terms of class struggle. We don't condemn things from a moralist perspective.. I mean there's nothing inherently bad about the death penalty. When our class enemies get executed we don't weep and whine, we either celebrate, nod our heads.. whatever we do, we should never feel bad about it, because its a small victory for our side. The reason Im against the death penalty in Amerika because it's run by an obviously reactionary, anti-working class and fucked up racist government, but I don't condemn the firing squads during the Russian revolution, for example, because they shot our class enemies, not our class allies like the one in Amerika does.

This kind of thinking is the worst kind of thinking; "We can't do any wrong, not like those capitalists, the people we kill MUST deserve it, because we're Socialists!" Firing squads don't shoot magic bullets, you know, they don't kill only class enemies. And once someone's been executed you can't undo it.

I haven't been here a very long time but I'm beginning to notice "liberalism" is used as a blanket term for pretty much fucking anything that doesn't validate people's macho chest thumping. Don't you fucking tell me not to view things in a moralist fashion, when the whole reason we're all here is because we're sick and tired of the immorality of a system that breaks the majority for the benefit of a few.

Fuck this "liberalism" tripe. If you're unable to temper your rightful Socialist anger with humanism and compassion then you're just an unthinking thug.

El Che put it best.


"Let me say, with the risk of appearing ridiculous, that the true revolutionary
is guided by strong feelings of love. It is impossible to think of an authentic
revolutionary without this quality... One must have a large dose of humanity,
a large dose of a sense of justice and truth, to avoid falling into extremes,
into cold intellectualism, into isolation from the masses. Every day we
must struggle so that this love of living humanity is transformed into concrete
facts, into acts that will serve as an example."

[Spawn of Stalin]

Do you think Che was guided by love when he wanted to nuke NYC? Che was a deeply compassionate person and loved humanity as a whole, but he also understood what needed to be done. That's what was so great about him, he was a loving, caring man, but when it came to putting down enemies, he was pretty much the Terminator.

[Patchd]

Do you think Che was guided by love when he wanted to nuke NYC? Che was a deeply compassionate person and loved humanity as a whole, but he also understood what needed to be done. That's what was so great about him, he was a loving, caring man, but when it came to putting down enemies, he was pretty much the Terminator.
You mean nuking New York workers? Yeah, brilliant move. :thumbdown:

[Robocommie]

Do you think Che was guided by love when he wanted to nuke NYC? Che was a deeply compassionate person and loved humanity as a whole, but he also understood what needed to be done. That's what was so great about him, he was a loving, caring man, but when it came to putting down enemies, he was pretty much the Terminator.

So are you saying nuking NYC needed to be done?

Secondly, I'd like to actually get some objective sources that establish Che really wanted to nuke New York, that sounds like the kind of lies they tell about all communists.

[RHIZOMES]

El Che put it best.

Umm Che was in charge of executing pro-Batista reactionaries after the revolution...

[anticap]

Do you think Che was guided by love when he wanted to nuke NYC? Che was a deeply compassionate person and loved humanity as a whole, but he also understood what needed to be done. That's what was so great about him, he was a loving, caring man, but when it came to putting down enemies, he was pretty much the Terminator.

Every summary execution ever committed was an example of "putting down enemies," but I don't think that justifies it. Call me a bleeding-heart liberal, but I don't feel a sense of glee when I read accounts of the execution of Nicholas II and his family. I'm absolutely ecstatic that they were deposed, but there was no "need" to kill them. We can't know what might have happened had they not been killed, but could it really have been for the worse? Emperor Puyi was suffered to live and underwent a conversion after reading Marx.

(Incidentally, arguments that keeping figureheads alive will only keep the hopes of their followers alive are absurd. Martyrs are arguably better motivators; and having your leader clapped in irons is arguably more disheartening than empowering.)

[the last donut of the night]

***** deserved it

As a socialist you shouldn't view everything in such a shitty, moralist and liberal fashion. You should try and view everything in terms of class struggle. We don't condemn things from a moralist perspective.. I mean there's nothing inherently bad about the death penalty. When our class enemies get executed we don't weep and whine, we either celebrate, nod our heads.. whatever we do, we should never feel bad about it, because its a small victory for our side. The reason Im against the death penalty in Amerika because it's run by an obviously reactionary, anti-working class and fucked up racist government, but I don't condemn the firing squads during the Russian revolution, for example, because they shot our class enemies, not our class allies like the one in Amerika does.


Somebody had to say it. If it's one thing I agree with you, it's this. A disturbing trend in the socialist movement, especially in America, is the overtly liberal (in the American sense of the word) moralism. For example, the whole pacifism that pervades the anti-war movement: we are not against violence per se, we are against this war because it is an agent of capitalism and it is killing innocent men, women, and children.

When the time for violence comes, we cannot get caught up in moral arguments whether it is right to kill or not -- that can come after the revolution. However, whether you like it or not, violence is completely necessary and deaths are necessary.

The capitalists don't give a damn about our lives, neither should we about theirs if we want a better world for our children.

Personally, seeing a few world leaders getting shot would be nice.

[Spawn of Stalin]

So are you saying nuking NYC needed to be done?

Secondly, I'd like to actually get some objective sources that establish Che really wanted to nuke New York, that sounds like the kind of lies they tell about all communists.
No actually I don't think nuking NYC would have been a good move. It would have started a World War which in the end may have gotten rid of capitalism once and for all but also would have cost millions, maybe even a billion lives, So no, I don't think sending nukes over to America needed to be done, and I think that it was stupid of Che to even consider such a thing, but that isn't the point.

[Robocommie]

Umm Che was in charge of executing pro-Batista reactionaries after the revolution...

I know he was, though a lot of Miami Cubans make it out to sound like the people executed were simply the owners of factories or even clerks who once shook Batista's hand, as opposed to the commanders of death squads and state torturers.

I admire Che, I think he is a role model for what every revolutionary should be, but that doesn't mean I think every single thing he did was right. However, I can't say that I wholly condemn what happened at La Cabana. It was done in the wake of an uprising against fascists, not just capitalists but true blue fascists. There should have been more due process, there were probably a few who were innocent and should not have been killed, but given the situation it's somewhat understandable and Batista's regime was pretty fucked up.

My objection in this thread is not against the shooting of war criminals, though I am opposed to the death penalty in a more general sense, but of the idea that we should get all inspired and happy at the picture of a murdered person, regardless of why they were killed. That to me, is sick. It's like politically oriented snuff.

[Robocommie]

When the time for violence comes, we cannot get caught up in moral arguments whether it is right to kill or not -- that can come after the revolution. However, whether you like it or not, violence is completely necessary and deaths are necessary.

The capitalists don't give a damn about our lives, neither should we about theirs if we want a better world for our children.

Personally, seeing a few world leaders getting shot would be nice.

I do want to point out that it's a bit odd to read this and then read your signature.

[anticap]

Somebody had to say it. If it's one thing I agree with you, it's this. A disturbing trend in the socialist movement, especially in America, is the overtly liberal (in the American sense of the word) moralism. For example, the whole pacifism that pervades the anti-war movement: we are not against violence per se, we are against this war because it is an agent of capitalism and it is killing innocent men, women, and children.

When the time for violence comes, we cannot get caught up in moral arguments whether it is right to kill or not -- that can come after the revolution. However, whether you like it or not, violence is completely necessary and deaths are necessary.

The capitalists don't give a damn about our lives, neither should we about theirs if we want a better world for our children.

Personally, seeing a few world leaders getting shot would be nice.

You seem to be confusing execution with war. The two are not even remotely similar. I haven't seen anyone objecting to the latter, and if I did then I would join you in mocking them as milquetoasts.

[Spawn of Stalin]

I know he was, though a lot of Miami Cubans make it out to sound like the people executed were simply the owners of factories or even clerks who once shook Batista's hand, as opposed to the commanders of death squads and state torturers.

I admire Che, I think he is a role model for what every revolutionary should be, but that doesn't mean I think every single thing he did was right. However, I can't say that I wholly condemn what happened at La Cabana. It was done in the wake of an uprising against fascists, not just capitalists but true blue fascists. There should have been more due process, there were probably a few who were innocent and should not have been killed, but given the situation it's somewhat understandable and Batista's regime was pretty fucked up.

My objection in this thread is not against the shooting of war criminals, though I am opposed to the death penalty in a more general sense, but of the idea that we should get all inspired and happy at the picture of a murdered person, regardless of why they were killed. That to me, is sick. It's like politically oriented snuff.
Mussolini was not murdered, you give him way to much credit, and in the name of humanism of all things? Mussolini was simply a victim of his own cruel actions, it's his fault and his fault alone, don't blame the partisans who killed him, and don't blame the people who hail his execution as a progressive event, blame Mussolini. He was shot two or three times through the chest and died pretty quickly, if you ask me he got off extremely lightly all things considered.

[Robocommie]

Mussolini was not murdered, you give him way to much credit, and in the name of humanism of all things? Mussolini was simply a victim of his own cruel actions, it's his fault and his fault alone, don't blame the partisans who killed him, and don't blame the people who hail his execution as a progressive event, blame Mussolini. He was shot two or three times through the chest and died pretty quickly, if you ask me he got off extremely lightly all things considered.

We disagree less than you think, but it's still creepy to call that picture beautiful.

[the last donut of the night]

I do want to point out that it's a bit odd to read this and then read your signature.

Well, mind you that many Catholic priests supported Latin American revolutions in the 80's.

[New Tet]

Well, mind you that many Catholic priests supported Latin American revolutions in the 80's.

As did some Catholic lay people and nuns, as well:


Donovan traveled to El Salvador in July 1977, where she worked as a lay missioner in La Libertad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Libertad,_La_Libertad), along with Dorothy Kazel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Kazel), an Ursuline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursuline) nun. The pair worked in the parish of the Church of the Immaculate Conception in La Libertad, providing help to refugees of the Salvadoran Civil War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvadoran_Civil_War) and the poor. They provided shelter, food, transportation to medical care, and buried the bodies of the dead left behind by the death squads.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Donovan#cite_note-Dear-1)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Donovan

[Dimentio]

Do you think Che was guided by love when he wanted to nuke NYC? Che was a deeply compassionate person and loved humanity as a whole, but he also understood what needed to be done. That's what was so great about him, he was a loving, caring man, but when it came to putting down enemies, he was pretty much the Terminator.

You must be a troll. :lol:

Well, about this attack on Berlusconi. I think it has been perpetuated by rival factions within the Italian ruling elite, as Italy has a long history of symbolic stage actions.

The guy was hit in the head by a cathedral. That's symbolic.

[Pogue]

I can't beleive there would even be a debate about whether Berlusconi deserved this. Of course he fucking did, and much more besides. I would happilly see him swinging in a Mussolini-esque fashion one day, but until then, this will do.

On the subject of violence - I agree its useless moralising to talk about the morals of killing your class enemies. Class war is war, its what happens. I'm not Marxist-Leninist but I don't really care about the sorts the Cubans executed immediately after their revolution. Its different when the people being murdered are innocent members of the working class though. This has to be avoided, for many obvious reasons.

[Dimentio]

This kind of thinking is the worst kind of thinking; "We can't do any wrong, not like those capitalists, the people we kill MUST deserve it, because we're Socialists!" Firing squads don't shoot magic bullets, you know, they don't kill only class enemies. And once someone's been executed you can't undo it.

I haven't been here a very long time but I'm beginning to notice "liberalism" is used as a blanket term for pretty much fucking anything that doesn't validate people's macho chest thumping. Don't you fucking tell me not to view things in a moralist fashion, when the whole reason we're all here is because we're sick and tired of the immorality of a system that breaks the majority for the benefit of a few.

Fuck this "liberalism" tripe. If you're unable to temper your rightful Socialist anger with humanism and compassion then you're just an unthinking thug.

El Che put it best.



The problem is also that the tendency in power for the moment eventually would start to see class enemies amongst its own allies. Most socialist revolutions have seen executions of allies after the immediate takeover.

[cyu]

the pity is that it took a mentally ill man to do what any sane Italian should have done years ago.

When the mass media is controlled by one man to try to convince the people to do more and more insane things, then the only sane people remaining will be called insane by everyone else.

[New Tet]

I can't beleive there would even be a debate about whether Berlusconi deserved this. Of course he fucking did, and much more besides. I would happilly see him swinging in a Mussolini-esque fashion one day, but until then, this will do.

On the subject of violence - I agree its useless moralising to talk about the morals of killing your class enemies. Class war is war, its what happens. I'm not Marxist-Leninist but I don't really care about the sorts the Cubans executed immediately after their revolution. Its different when the people being murdered are innocent members of the working class though. This has to be avoided, for many obvious reasons.

According to what I read, Mussolini and his mistress were shot some time after they had been discovered hiding in the back of a truck. Reportedly, his last words were, "Getlemen, wait, wait!" Such irony if it be true!

Here's an anecdote told to me years ago by a man, a practicing psychologist, who had been part of the first security apparatus in post-revolutionary Cuba and eventually became known as G2.

On or about the time he had told me this anecdote (in the privacy of his home), two men, Cuban emigres in Canada, had publicly denounced him as an agent of the Cuban government, an "infiltrado". It made the local networks in Miami and perhaps the Spanish language version of The Miami Herald, El Herald, but I never saw it.

This came amidst a series of attacks on Radio Progreso inspired, perhaps, by the Cuban American National Foundation. In Radio Progreso, a Coral Gables-based radio station founded by Francisco Aruca, Ramirez had a couple of paid-for programs consisting of Latin American news, commentary and psychological self-improvement advise directed at the Hispanic immigrant community of South Florida.

Dr Vladimir Ramirez denied the accusation in equal public fashion and, through a lawyer, threatened to sue the men for slander and defamation of character. Almost as suddenly as his Canadian accusers surfaced, they and their seemingly unfounded claims about Ramirez evaporated, absorbed by the cacophony of anti-Castro chatter that prevailed in Miami at the time.

Previous to his move to Miami, Ramirez had spent 18 years in a Cuban prison for political dissent and possibly trumped-up charges of terrorism. At one point during the revolution, he told me, he had become disaffected with it and "taken up arms against the Castro-led" government. He said he now regretted having done so and was working to redress his actions and bad reputation in his country.

By the time I met him, Vladimir Ramirez was "personna no grata" in Cuba and quickly becoming one among the Cuban exile "community" of South Florida:

The VSMG consists of 312 Cuban exile members. According to group sources, between 1959 and 1969, VSMG members were responsible for a total of 2,144 covert operations directed against the government of Cuba. VSMG missions consisted mainly of industrial sabotage and detonation of explosive devices at Cuban government structures. Several group members have also participated in guerrilla warfare in Nicaragua, Angola, and El Salvador.

Unnamed local organization
Members:
Suarez Rodriguez, Arturo
Lazaro Salvat, Orlando Luis
Saud, Juan Antonio
Cortes, Julio Alberto
Fernandez Pereda, Jorge Antonio
Carvajal Alvarez, Geronimo Enis
Carvajal, Mateo Edel
Martin, German V.
Garcia, Angel Luis

Synopsis:

This group of Cuban exiles targeted local figures such as Francisco Aruca, Jose R. Cruz and Vladimir Ramirez for possible assassination. Before neutralization, the group intended to dispose of the aforementioned targets by means of explosive devices.
http://cuban-exile.com/doc_001-025/doc0005.html

[bottom of page]
Here's the anecdote as I remember it:

Days and weeks after the triumph of the insurrection and the taking of Havana by Fidel, Camilo, Che and the "milicianos", Vladimir had taken to riding around the city with other "barbudos" locating gambling houses, bordellos and street corners where known pimps, gangsters and criminals hung out or gathered. Properly armed with rifles and machine guns, they would "visit" these places and warn the criminals that they had 24 hrs to leave Cuba or they would likely face grave reprisals, including, possibly, the "paredon" or firing squad.

I recall asking him if any criminal they confronted ever defied their warning. He told me "yes, some", but most heeded the threat. Of those who didn't, he said, some were shot where they were caught a second time or eventually killed by firing squad.

As I remember it, this illuminating story was related in the somber attitude of a man who now rejected violence in general but conceded its occasional but lamentable necessity.

And here's another mention of Ramirez in a book about Cuban exiles in the U.S. (page 165):
http://books.google.com/books?id=2EvTZIwh7sIC&pg=PA165&lpg=PA165&dq=Vladimir+Ram%C3%ADrez+Cuba&source=bl&ots=e0CXIKME7T&sig=_19iujPF-snbioCTrLobFM-gfhA&hl=en&ei=LJ8mS4KTM9SPtgeNhvnQBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false

[Robocommie]

The problem is also that the tendency in power for the moment eventually would start to see class enemies amongst its own allies. Most socialist revolutions have seen executions of allies after the immediate takeover.

Well, exactly. My point about my comment about mass graves was not that it's wrong to fight for justice, but that once you're able to so cavalierly dismiss the lives of your political enemies, how long before you're able to dismiss the lives of your political rivals as well? "Fuck them, they're not TRUE revolutionaries and society would be better off without them." It's happened before, it's completely stupid to not realize it could happen again.

Violence is a tool, but it's just one tool, and it should be seen as a lamentable necessity.

[rednordman]

I think its important to note that alot of people did not kill out of sheer want or lust, it was out of necessity. Or what they percieved to be necessity. If we are to argue about something it should really be as to whether the revolutionaries guest correctly that the capitalist supporters where only ever going to try all means they had, to be counter-revolutionary and overthrow the socialist regimes.

[The Author]

It was nice to see Berlusconi bleed, and considering the corruption and greed associated with his name, it was a long time coming. I'm not surprised the media would try to pass this off as some "mental case" throwing the souvenir at him. More like it was an unemployed worker or a rogue anarchist or someone just pissed off at the man, and when he saw the PM, decided "what the hell, I'll take the chance and throw this little souvenir at him for laughs."

I only wish we could have seen the same reaction with blood and bruising on Bush's face last year when the reporter threw his shoes at him in Iraq, instead of having that jackass dodge the throw and then make a stupid joke about it afterwards. But this is still great news and made my day when I saw it and read about it.

[Die Neue Zeit]

This reminds me more of former Alberta premier Ralph Klein getting pie in the face than the shoe-thrower.

[Robocommie]

I only wish we could have seen the same reaction with blood and bruising on Bush's face last year when the reporter threw his shoes at him in Iraq, instead of having that jackass dodge the throw and then make a stupid joke about it afterwards. But this is still great news and made my day when I saw it and read about it.

I actually thought that the Bush shoe dodge was pretty funny, that motherfucker was fast. You know I heard that reporter got a lot of marriage proposals around Iraq when he got out of jail.

[ls]

This is absolute justice in every way, he treats the working-class like filth and vermin then disgustingly thinks he can just walk among them with his smug bastard ugly ****ing face to sign autographs? The natural reaction should be to wipe away his smug bastad grin.

I hope the security guards chose to stay away; just let him take a good hit then intervene, he probably treats them like filth after all.

[New Tet]

I actually thought that the Bush shoe dodge was pretty funny, that motherfucker was fast. You know I heard that reporter got a lot of marriage proposals around Iraq when he got out of jail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B651B3VPg8c

[Kayser_Soso]

And when you become the class enemy of the "Worker's government" led by the "brave vanguardist party leading the working class to its bright red future"? Would you cheer then?

Couldn't be worse than those who found themselves as class enemies of the "brave freedom loving, anti-authoritarian, grass-roots, bottom-up" anarchists in Ukraine and Spain. At least the Soviets gave you a trial.

[Kayser_Soso]

I actually thought that the Bush shoe dodge was pretty funny, that motherfucker was fast. You know I heard that reporter got a lot of marriage proposals around Iraq when he got out of jail.

I figure that if he just had ONE more shoe he could have hit him. If I remember correctly, the shoes went on either side of him. In artillery, this is called bracketing the target. The next shoe would have been dead on.

[Robocommie]

I figure that if he just had ONE more shoe he could have hit him. If I remember correctly, the shoes went on either side of him. In artillery, this is called bracketing the target. The next shoe would have been dead on.

Next time, I say it's 4 shoes for a dollar. Winner gets a pink teddy bear.

[New Tet]

I figure that if he just had ONE more shoe he could have hit him. If I remember correctly, the shoes went on either side of him. In artillery, this is called bracketing the target. The next shoe would have been dead on.

After the "bracketing" he should have thrown a camera, if he had one. Set it on "auto-shoot" and let 'er rip!

Imagine the worth of the pictures: 1 million dollars for an image of Dubya's nose on moment of impact! Ha!

[Kayser_Soso]

Next time, I say it's 4 shoes for a dollar. Winner gets a pink teddy bear.

Actually I remember almost immediately after hearing that I thought this would be the next popular flash advertisement: Hit Bush with a Shoe and Win a FREE Ipod!*


*Ipod not free


There were flash games based on it though.

[Intelligitimate]

God what a disgusting display of liberal bullshit in this thread.

[La Comédie Noire]

This action was neither political nor would it have been effective if it were. But, onto matters of violence, they will occur, but we shouldn't fetishize them. Especially on an internet message board.

"Ah yes Comrades, the proletariat must not use mercy against the bourgeoisie!"

It sounds so nice and clean until you actually get down to the real thing, then it just sounds naive. Violence is a terrible and scary thing. People who have had violence inflicted upon them or have inflicted violence upon others will tell you. That Mussolini picture is a good example, you can talk about the fall of Italy in all the socioeconomic terms you want, but once you see what it looks like it makes you sick.

[Kayser_Soso]

That Mussolini picture is a good example, you can talk about the fall of Italy in all the socioeconomic terms you want, but once you see what it looks like it makes you sick.

I suggest toughening up.

[La Comédie Noire]

I suggest toughening up.

Sorry, I didn't know there were any battle hardened proletariat warriors amongst us. :rolleyes:

[Kayser_Soso]

Sorry, I didn't know there were any battle hardened proletariat warriors amongst us. :rolleyes:

This is not pissing contest. I am just saying that the road to socialism is not going to be pleasant and those kinds of attitudes need to be dealt with. The capitalists have done well at immunizing themselves from the suffering and misery they cause.

[RHIZOMES]

When the mass media is controlled by one man to try to convince the people to do more and more insane things, then the only sane people remaining will be called insane by everyone else.

I read somewhere he was an unemployed engineer. I think that might have a bit more something to do with it, rather than his struggles with mental health.

[Os Cangaceiros]

What they've done? The "cult of the model throwers" is attacking Italy?

Nice example of fascist thinking there... They've done it... the Jews, the gypsies, the take your pick.

It's a strange political atmosphere in which souvenir-chucking is counted as terrorism, while the firebombing of gypsy camps isn't.

[Robocommie]

I suggest toughening up.

You know one of the most horrible things I've ever seen was a picture I happened across on the internet. It was an insurgent who had been killed in Iraq, some dickhead soldier must have snapped the shot. The guy basically had his head blown clear the fuck open, and it was lying on the ground in chunks. But the really fucked up part was that his face was still mostly intact, just sitting on top of the biggest chunk, and his eyes were looking right at the camera.

I saw that and it pretty much fucked me up emotionally for the rest of the day. You know what though? I don't ever WANT to be in a place where that shit doesn't fuck me up anymore. Then I might as well just start sticking cats on sharpened sticks.

You guys never hear stories of post-traumatic stress disorder? You know, shellshock? It's not a capitalist phenomenon. Violence fucks people up emotionally, and it's really easy to be real fucking hard on the internet, but speaking as someone who has known people who have taken lives, someone who's been in my fair share of nasty ass fights, it's not something you ever "toughen up" and just get over.

[FSL]

Violence is a terrible and scary thing.



Yes, we shouldn't fetishize violence. But we also shouldn't assign negative qualities to it. Violence is something plain in changing modes of production, something that at some point proves itself useful. It has happened so in the past and will probably happen so in the future. It's not terrible or scary or beautiful or creative. It's a tool.

It's not like the revolution will need to take peoples' heads off as prizes. An injection does a job just as good and is less tough on the eye.

[bcbm]

It's not like the revolution will need to take peoples' heads off as prizes. An injection does a job just as good and is less tough on the eye.

i don't think the lack of spectacle lessens the result.

[FSL]

i don't think the lack of spectacle lessens the result.


Who would want the result to lessen?

[bcbm]

Who would want the result to lessen?

i think that was the point of some of the discussion that's been occurring over the last few pages? in any case, i don't think there are a ton of things that absolutely require execution in a socialist society.

[Kayser_Soso]

It's not like the revolution will need to take peoples' heads off as prizes. An injection does a job just as good and is less tough on the eye.

Maybe outside of Russia....in Eastern Europe we might have to get a little Tamerlane on some people's asses.

[leninpuncher]

***** deserved it

As a socialist you shouldn't view everything in such a shitty, moralist and liberal fashion.
If you want people to listen to you, you should. The amount of people advocating forced-labour and capital punishment is very small, and is getting smaller. If you advocate a never-ending river of blood as a political strategy, nobody's going to pay the slightest bit of attention to you.

There's no scientific law that tells us to value human life, in the same way that there's no scientific law that tells us to oppose exploitation. They're both moral issues. You can't take a strong moral stance against exploitation (which is what you're doing), and then condemn someone else as a moralist for taking a strong moral stance against the death penalty.

[leninpuncher]

Yes, we shouldn't fetishize violence. But we also shouldn't assign negative qualities to it. Violence is something plain in changing modes of production, something that at some point proves itself useful. It has happened so in the past and will probably happen so in the future. It's not terrible or scary or beautiful or creative. It's a tool.

It's not like the revolution will need to take peoples' heads off as prizes. An injection does a job just as good and is less tough on the eye.
And after the revolution is over, when you have prisons full of former CEOs and politicians, where is the use in killing them? Are you going to harvest their organs for the poor?

[New Tet]

And after the revolution is over, when you have prisons full of former CEOs and politicians, where is the use in killing them? Are you going to harvest their organs for the poor?

The worst punishment for a capitalist is not undeserved martyrdom, I think.

The worst punishment you can inflict on an unrepentant capitalist is to put him to work.

Gainful employment in which he/she is compelled to accept an amount of self-generated wealth commensurate with the actual physical or mental labor they personally and cooperatively invest in its production.

Forget about using repressive concentration/labor camps. That type of institution is repugnant to any fair-minded person. Socialism aims to abolish them wherever they exist; hopefully, as soon as the revolution begins.

Integration is the word I was looking for here: The former capitalist must be integrated into the new society with as little violence as is humanly possible and without the violation of his or her fundamental human rights.

[Pavlov's House Party]

:ohmy:er...Must have been a communist or anarchist then.

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/5993/657671-ivan_drago3_large.jpg

I MUST BREAK YOU

[piet11111]

And after the revolution is over, when you have prisons full of former CEOs and politicians, where is the use in killing them? Are you going to harvest their organs for the poor?

no we are going to grind them up and use them for fertilizer :rolleyes: (yes this is me being sarcastic)

what else could you do but let them rot in prison i would not want them out with us where they could plot a counter revolution.

[FSL]

There's no scientific law that tells us to value human life, in the same way that there's no scientific law that tells us to oppose exploitation. They're both moral issues. You can't take a strong moral stance against exploitation (which is what you're doing), and then condemn someone else as a moralist for taking a strong moral stance against the death penalty.



Workers value human life because it's them being killed and oppose exploitation because it's them being exploited. If you think it has anything to do with morals, you certainly are far, far away from any remotely progressive ideology. Enjoy your fixed, arbitrary ideals but expect them to be denounced as such.

[New Tet]

no we are going to grind them up and use them for fertilizer :rolleyes: (yes this is me being sarcastic)

what else could you do but let them rot in prison i would not want them out with us where they could plot a counter revolution.

With a magic wand, I suppose.

If the capitalist were dethroned and the economy organized in such a fashion as to prevent them or anyone else from misappropriating the product of other people's labor or undeservedly appropriating the benefits of accumulated social labor, there should be no fear of a counter-revolution.

Make it impossible and illegal to privately accumulate capital, I say, while giving the former capitalist a chance to redeem himself through useful, gainful work.

This should be a relatively easy thing to accomplish if you consider that the capitalists are relatively few in numbers.

But all this is too speculative. After all, the question on how to get there from here is still in discussion.

[FSL]

If the capitalist were dethroned and the economy organized in such a fashion as to prevent them or anyone else from misappropriating the product of other people's labor or undeservedly appropriating the benefits of accumulated social labor, there should be no fear of a counter-revolution.

Make it impossible and illegal to privately accumulate capital, I say, while giving the former capitalist a chance to redeem himself through useful, gainful work.

This should be a relatively easy thing to accomplish if you consider that the capitalists are relatively few in numbers.

But all this is too speculative. After all, the question on how to get there from here is still in discussion.



Class struggle without the struggle. Sounds very likely.

[bcbm]

Class struggle without the struggle. Sounds very likely.

i believe new tet is talking about after the culmination of class struggle in the end of bourgeois dictatorship.

[Intelligitimate]

And after the revolution is over, when you have prisons full of former CEOs and politicians, where is the use in killing them? Are you going to harvest their organs for the poor?

What a naive thing to say! As if a revolution in this country would ever give us time to arrest all the most powerful leaders of the bourgeoisie...

No. Like in basically all countries that have become dictatorships of the proletariat, there will be a massive wave of counter-reaction, up to and including a civil war. The forces of the bourgeoisie will ruthlessly murder anyone against their class power, capture their families and kill/torture them, repeat any lie imaginable to turn the masses against the revolution.

These people will do anything to hold on to their class power, including fleeing and conspiring with other capitalist powers to destroy socialism. All of them and their allies will need to swiftly die in order to save socialism and possibly humanity from inter-imperialist nuclear annihilation.

[New Tet]

Class struggle without the struggle. Sounds very likely.

Socialism aims to abolish the class struggle by turning the source of capitalist power into social property, democratically controlled by the workers themselves, directly from their workplaces.

Take away from the capitalists their control of the economy and put it in the hands of a democratically organized working class and there will cease to be a capitalist class and a working class as such.

[FSL]

Socialism aims to abolish the class struggle by turning the source of capitalist power into social property, democratically controlled by the workers themselves, directly from their workplaces.

Take away from the capitalists their control of the economy and put it in the hands of a democratically organized working class and there will cease to be a capitalist class and a working class as such.


Yes, I'm aware of socialism's aims. My objection is in thinking these things are done as easily as said. Socialism is a system where systematic class oppression continues to exist, it's the dictatorship of the proletariat that follows the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.
You went on to paint a fairly idyllic picture of it, however, which doesn't really correspond to that reality.

[rednordman]

What a naive thing to say! As if a revolution in this country would ever give us time to arrest all the most powerful leaders of the bourgeoisie...

No. Like in basically all countries that have become dictatorships of the proletariat, there will be a massive wave of counter-reaction, up to and including a civil war. The forces of the bourgeoisie will ruthlessly murder anyone against their class power, capture their families and kill/torture them, repeat any lie imaginable to turn the masses against the revolution.

These people will do anything to hold on to their class power, including fleeing and conspiring with other capitalist powers to destroy socialism. All of them and their allies will need to swiftly die in order to save socialism and possibly humanity from inter-imperialist nuclear annihilation.You know, I do not like the idea of causing harm, or even inprisoning people for their political beliefs, but think you are spot on with your post. The real world is very cold im afraid. The aristocrats will indeed do all you say to stop socialism from being successfull. Just like they did before. Bourgoise people really do believe that their existance is essential for the future of humankind.

[New Tet]

Yes, I'm aware of socialism's aims. My objection is in thinking these things are done as easily as said. Socialism is a system where systematic class oppression continues to exist, it's the dictatorship of the proletariat that follows the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.
You went on to paint a fairly idyllic picture of it, however, which doesn't really correspond to that reality.

Actually, I am advocating for the dictatorship of the proletariat, just not the way you're accustomed to thinking about, that's all.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Important to remember that this was not an act of class struggle.
Just a lot of fun to see his face being fucked up.

[New Tet]

Important to remember that this was not an act of class struggle.

How can you be so sure of that?

[Robocommie]

How can you be so sure of that?

Well, in purely practical terms, are we likely to see anymore Italians become leftists from this incident? Not likely less either, but not likely more.

[New Tet]

Well, in purely practical terms, are we likely to see anymore Italians become leftists from this incident? Not likely less either, but not likely more.

That's probably impossible for me to answer.

Just the same, while we're in the speculative mood we shouldn't discard any possibility as to the cause of Berluscornudo's idol-smack, including this class struggle we all seem so preoccupied over.

That's why I asked RosenPenis how can he be so sure that the class struggle had nothing to do with this happy event.

[gorillafuck]

It's a strange political atmosphere in which souvenir-chucking is counted as terrorism, while the firebombing of gypsy camps isn't.
I never heard of that, link?

[Patchd]

Not a great link, but cases like this do happen:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2008/aug/17/roma.italy?picture=336590502

In fact this series of pictures are quite moving, especially the one of two Roma girls who had drowned in the sea, the authorities did not arrive for 3 hours (while others get faster treatment) and they simply covered up the bodies with towels whilst Italians continued with their day.

[rebelmouse]

I was very happy when I read news, and published at my site, that berlusconi got punch in the face, with hand or statue, I don't care. of course, there was facebook group, with 230000 members already the same evening when it was happen. later it became more than 60 000 members and newspaper said that italian government will abolish that group. yesterday I said to one girl from Milano about it and she was sorry that somebody did something like it to old man like Berlusconi, she must be a rat. I am not surprised that she got job, as foreigner, in denmark. she made me nervous yesterday very much, I spoke first time with her so I didn't want to make conflict, but I saw who she is. as I said always, pacifists who are against militants, are rats. she is against violence (while government kill africans at border everyday with refusing to let them to come to the land, and much more beside it).
and of course, yesterday i saw news that attacker sent public letter where he say that he is sorry for attack. but nobody say if he was tortured by cops and maybe even by other prisoners who kiss in ass authorities in order to get privileges in prison.
in any case, even if he was in mental hospital before, I believe that this system broke his nerve system, so I respect him even authorities say that he is crazy man. he did something what is dream of many people, facebook membership showed how many people like what he did. the rest what will be happen with him is result of repression and trying of authorities to keep society under control.

[cyu]

Belongs more in chit-chat, but I thought it was funny, if barely relevant and featuring too many right-wingers...

http://i.imgur.com/BimDZ.jpg

Random discussion at http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/aex7d/what_really_happened/

[Luisrah]

Belongs more in chit-chat, but I thought it was funny, if barely relevant and featuring too many right-wingers...


Random discussion at http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/aex7d/what_really_happened/

Lol that was pretty good :D

[New Tet]

Belongs more in chit-chat, but I thought it was funny, if barely relevant and featuring too many right-wingers...

http://i.imgur.com/BimDZ.jpg

Random discussion at http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/aex7d/what_really_happened/

I think the whole thread should be moved to Chit-Chat. Except for this post. Is there a hall of fame in Revleft for the best posts ever?

[Kayser_Soso]

Chuck Norris jokes aren't funny, they were never funny. Chuck Norris sucks. Plus Chuck Norris, if you have been following his recent decent into right-wing madness, would be far more likely to beat up Obama.

[New Tet]

Chuck Norris jokes aren't funny, they were never funny. Chuck Norris sucks. Plus Chuck Norris, if you have been following his recent decent into right-wing madness, would be far more likely to beat up Obama.

This doesn't seem to me like a Chuck Norris joke; more like a Berlusconi one, I think.

[cyu]

Plus Chuck Norris, if you have been following his recent decent into right-wing madness, would be far more likely to beat up Obama.

OK, rapidly descending into chit-chat now... :D From http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/aex7d/what_really_happened/c0h8hl1

he's a right-wingnut who has suggested that the US government should be overthrown by force, and wants biblical creationism taught in public school in place of evolution.

There is no way in hell that Chuck Norris would do Obama any favors.

From http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/aex7d/what_really_happened/c0h8nrm

What does "Chuck Norris" have to do with Chuck Norris?


From http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/aex7d/what_really_happened/c0h9br7

Chuck Norris doesn't have a chin underneath his beard; just a giant pussy.
Before the boogeyman goes to sleep, he checks his closet to make sure Chuck Norris folded all the clothes correctly.
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups; he's too old.

Phone conversation from http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/aex7d/what_really_happened/c0h8nrp

"I don't do things like this for free, Barack Hussein. Healthcare reform must not pass."

"Whatever, just jump the sonuva*****."

[Woyzeck]

All I can think or say is :laugh::laugh::laugh:

All I can think or say is that it's a damn shame the actual Milan cathedral didn't fall on his face, or something of similar size and weight anyway.

One lives in hope though.

[Robocommie]

All I can think or say is that it's a damn shame the actual Milan cathedral didn't fall on his face, or something of similar size and weight anyway.

One lives in hope though.

Hah, I love the idea of something the size of a Cathedral only landing on his face. :D

[New Tet]

Definitely Chit-Chat:

"Moderator!" "Yes, over here!"

"Yes, sir, er...Comrade?"

"Moderator, I'd like to place an order to go, please?"

"But you're sitting at a table, si...er, Comrade!"

"True. In that case, I'll have it here and take with me what I don't eat."

"Very well, Comrade, what will it be?"

"A large order of Chit-Chat with fries and a pickle on the side, oh--and slaw."

"It's the combo, then?"

"Yeah."

"And what to drink?"

"Water, thank you; with ice."

"Right away, si-damn-Comrade!"