Catalonian autonomy

[MarxSchmarx]

Yet another vote is scheduled on Catalonia's status within Spain:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8409767.stm

What are comrade's opinions of these sort of regionalist campaigns within the context of the contemporary EU? Do they serve any serious purpose? Or are they potentials for strengthening the movement by declaring independence in regions with a strong leftist presence and where the organized left can be a serious threat to the power system?

[Tablo]

I think it is a wonderful thing they are trying to break away from Spain. I don't know how much of a part the leftist community would play if they actually do split...

[Q]

Marxists have a dual approach towards the national question, on the one hand striving for the greatest possible unity of the working class, but on the other hand solving the national consciousness among parts of the working class. Not by suppressing it, but by overcoming it.

More concretely, Marxists in Spain should defend the full self-determination of the people of Catalonia up to and including independence, while the Marxists in Catalonia should emphasize on the unity with the working class in Spain and indeed Europe and the world.

We can only gain genuine unification of the working class if this happens on a voluntary basis among equals. For this we strive for working class unity that supersedes the capitalist state and puts forward the need for a socialist alternative.

[ComradeMan]

What are comrade's opinions of these sort of regionalist campaigns within the context of the contemporary EU? Do they serve any serious purpose? Or are they potentials for strengthening the movement by declaring independence in regions with a strong leftist presence and where the organized left can be a serious threat to the power system?

I have mixed feelings about this sort of thing and it can become a headache from an "ideological" point of view.

On the one hand peoples/ethnic groups have a right to self-determination-
But is this not a form of nationalism? Even racism in a sense that divides people?

Does not Catalonian independence mean yet another nation state?

Very often these nationalist movements mask an unpleasant and racist motivation as well as they are de facto saying "we are us we are not you".

It seems we have to pick and choose all the time between which nations yes? Which nations no? Dare I say the Jewish people? Israel?

Of course, within the EU the context is slightly different because effectively the EU is heading to a federal united states of Europe- whatever those states may be, Spain as is, or Castille, Catalonia, the Basque Country etc.

Not an easy one to answer.

What concerns me in the article is this:-

"But frustrations about the relationship with Madrid are as much about money as identity. Home to some 7m people, Catalonia is a prosperous place.The pretty cobbled streets of medieval Vic are lined with boutiques and alluring delicatessens - industry and agriculture are both strong here. But many complain that too much of that local wealth is drained away subsidising poorer parts of Spain and the return investment from Madrid is minimal."

I don't know what the exact situation is but "solidarity" is not the word that springs to mind...

[Revy]

Isn't there a difference between colonialism, or very oppressive situations, and the situations we see in some countries where it is basically some cultural or linguistic differences being exploited for no real purpose except to separate on that basis?

That's pretty much what I can't help but think.

[cyu]

On the one hand peoples/ethnic groups have a right to self-determination-
But is this not a form of nationalism? Even racism in a sense that divides people?


Well, "nationalism" taken to the extreme by anarchists is just self-determination for each individual - ie. the nation contains only one person =]

[MarxSchmarx]

What are comrade's opinions of these sort of regionalist campaigns within the context of the contemporary EU? Do they serve any serious purpose? Or are they potentials for strengthening the movement by declaring independence in regions with a strong leftist presence and where the organized left can be a serious threat to the power system?

I have mixed feelings about this sort of thing and it can become a headache from an "ideological" point of view.

On the one hand peoples/ethnic groups have a right to self-determination-
But is this not a form of nationalism? Even racism in a sense that divides people?

Does not Catalonian independence mean yet another nation state?

Very often these nationalist movements mask an unpleasant and racist motivation as well as they are de facto saying "we are us we are not you".

It seems we have to pick and choose all the time between which nations yes? Which nations no? Dare I say the Jewish people? Israel?

Of course, within the EU the context is slightly different because effectively the EU is heading to a federal united states of Europe- whatever those states may be, Spain as is, or Castille, Catalonia, the Basque Country etc.

Not an easy one to answer.

What concerns me in the article is this:-

"But frustrations about the relationship with Madrid are as much about money as identity. Home to some 7m people, Catalonia is a prosperous place.The pretty cobbled streets of medieval Vic are lined with boutiques and alluring delicatessens - industry and agriculture are both strong here. But many complain that too much of that local wealth is drained away subsidising poorer parts of Spain and the return investment from Madrid is minimal."

I don't know what the exact situation is but "solidarity" is not the word that springs to mind...

Well actually this hits the head on the problem I personally have with these kinds of movements (also the Walloons, the Basque, the Corsicans, etc...). I don't really see the point, given that perhaps outside of England and maybe the Eastern European countries these are going to be one country within a generation or two. So it is strikes me as rather pointless, a temporary feel-good measure.


But having said that, the EU still isn't quite at the super-state status. Thus, there is something to be said for an opportunistic view: namely, a relatively more leftist state in Catalonia or Northern Ireland that can have more of a say in the direction the EU takes.