EMEP as a bourgeois party

[Emre]

Can LS defend his assertion that EMEP is a bourgeois party?

I asked LS to do so here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/why-do-youth-t124162/index.html?p=1620548#post1620548) and he refused, instead he gave me negative rep stating:

''And there are a lot of satellites here too moron, also the head of the union DISK among all kinds of other leaders has been assassinated? What's your point? EMEP simply is bourgeois.''

All he did was repeat the same assertion.

I have also read other allegations regarding EMEP and Evrensel newspaper from Leo and Devrim. Regarding these, I will say one thing. EMEP may not be perfect but atleast it exists outside of the internet unlike this 'Sol Komünist' group. Unlike Devrim and Leo who always like to claim some sort of illegality, the TDKP actually was (read: is) an illegal organisation, comrades from which were murdered. You will remember our 17 year old comrade Erdal Eren, whose anniversary is soon.

The head of DİSK was shot, not assassinated. But I am the idiot Stalinist who is a member of a bourgeois party and knows nothing, of course.

[WorkersRepublic32]

:confused: In what way are the EMEP Bourgeois?

[ls]

Can LS defend his assertion that EMEP is a bourgeois party?

EMEP gives support to the Pro-American (http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=20070625152235678) PKK (http://en.emep.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=77:newroz-in-turkey-calls-for-a-solution-to-kurdish-question&catid=34:news) and wholly bourgeois anti-worker DTP (http://en.emep.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63:a-new-period-for-labourers-and-the-kurds&catid=35:press-statements) consistently and without fail, panders to nationalism with "brotherhood" in the region (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=tr&u=http://www.emep.org/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26view%3Darticle% 26id%3D313:kazanan-emperyalistler-ve-birlikcileri-deil-tuerkiye-ve-boelge-karde-halklar-olacaktr%26catid%3D35:basn-acklamalar%26Itemid%3D92) and apparent anti-Americanism (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/11386525_p.asp) which is a front for regionalist/nationalistic rhetoric (Galatasary is pretty nationalist support base-wise, even though it has some small left elements amongst it).


I have also read other allegations regarding EMEP and Evrensel newspaper from Leo and Devrim. Regarding these, I will say one thing. EMEP may not be perfect but atleast it exists outside of the internet unlike this 'Sol Komünist' group. Unlike Devrim and Leo who always like to claim some sort of illegality, the TDKP actually was (read: is) an illegal organisation, comrades from which were murdered. You will remember our 17 year old comrade Erdal Eren, whose anniversary is soon.

If existing outside the internet means going to big colourful rallies and listening to your leader that Legal lawyer guy making big speeches rather than struggling unglamorously, in the workplaces as a worker rather than a wannabe bourgeois bigtime politician, then I think most revolutionaries should say "so be it".


The head of DİSK was shot, not assassinated.

But do you deny that so many other people, heads of organisations etc have been targeted in consistent political assassinations in Turkey and that those from your organisation are hardly the first? As part of the bourgeois left, you are naturally going to be subject to a lot of repression, along with your pals the anti-worker DTP who are currently in a serious way. If anything, the loud and quite noticeable repression of your groups, rather than quiet attempted assassinations and shootings indicates you are more bourgeois, you are even listed on one site with a massive Turkish flag along with other elected parties, along with words like "the Turkish democracy flows!", it's to be expected I suppose.

[Emre]

(Galatasary is pretty nationalist support base-wise, even though it has some small left elements amongst it).Galatasaray (spell it right) is an area. They're not talking about the sports club. Clown.


EMEP gives support to the Pro-American (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=20070625152235678) PKK (http://en.emep.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=77:newroz-in-turkey-calls-for-a-solution-to-kurdish-question&catid=34:news) and wholly bourgeois anti-worker DTP (http://en.emep.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63:a-new-period-for-labourers-and-the-kurds&catid=35:press-statements) consistently and without fail, panders to nationalism with "brotherhood" in the region (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=tr&u=http://www.emep.org/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26view%3Darticle% 26id%3D313:kazanan-emperyalistler-ve-birlikcileri-deil-tuerkiye-ve-boelge-karde-halklar-olacaktr%26catid%3D35:basn-acklamalar%26Itemid%3D92) and apparent anti-Americanism (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/11386525_p.asp) which is a front for regionalist/nationalistic rhetoric
All I see are links seamingly suspended in mid-air with no comments or extract to defend your argument. But lets try to make sense of them. If taken at face value, what you're arguing is EMEP is a Turkish nationalist organisation which supports the Pro-American PKK?


If existing outside the internet means going to big colourful rallies and listening to your leader that Legal lawyer guy making big speeches rather than struggling unglamorously, in the workplaces as a worker rather than a wannabe bourgeois bigtime politician, then I think most revolutionaries should say "so be it".Levent Tüzel has done more for socialism in Turkey than all of the left communists, anarchists and Trots combined - I am happy to say. Regardless, EMEP was active in supporting the striking teachers lately, as was EMEP youth and tommorow EMEP will be in Kadıköy protesting against the CHP's comments regarding the Dersim uprising. I havent saw the anarchists, Trots, left communists or any other of the ultra-leftists at these things but of course, they're leading the 'real struggle' because 'big colourful rallies' are below them.


you are even listed on one site with a massive Turkish flag along with other elected parties, along with words like "the Turkish democracy flows!", it's to be expected I suppose.Please forgive us for the actions of others.

[ls]

Galatasaray (spell it right) is an area. They're not talking about the sports club. Clown.

Can spell fine thanks, I'm sure you need to exercise intellectual superiority with one letter (:rolleyes:), nonetheless apologies about mistaking the area with the sports club, though it is an extremely central feature of the area.


All I see are links seamingly suspended in mid-air with no comments or extract to defend your argument. But lets try to make sense of them. If taken at face value, what you're arguing is EMEP is a Turkish nationalist organisation which supports the Pro-American PKK?

Taken at face value? Sorry if you can't click on links and methodically go through the information contained therein, I have linked evidence and if you can't be bothered to read it don't reply, as it is you bothered to read the first one but not the others? :rolleyes: Sure makes a convincing argument.


Levent Tüzel has done more for socialism in Turkey than all of the left communists, anarchists and Trots combined - I am happy to say. Regardless, EMEP was active in supporting the striking teachers lately, as was EMEP youth and tommorow EMEP will be in Kadıköy protesting against the CHP's comments regarding the Dersim uprising. I havent saw the anarchists, Trots, left communists or any other of the ultra-leftists at these things but of course, they're leading the 'real struggle' because 'big colourful rallies' are below them.

Actually, they are present at all rallies, of course you wouldn't notice because you are too busy watching your dear Lawyer leader making a speech to notice, oftentimes about how the DTP is such a poor repressed organisation and about how the middle-east is interlinked and must fightback against the west, when you support a pro-American organisation yourself?


Please forgive us for the actions of others.

You might as well just come out and say "we support AKP in their efforts to build a united Turkey".

[Emre]

Can spell fine thanks, I'm sure you need to exercise intellectual superiority with one letter (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gif), nonetheless apologies about mistaking the area with the sports club, though it is an extremely central feature of the area.Actually, the sports clubs isnt even in Galatasaray. Double clown. :)

Galatasaray Square is atleast 3 or 4 kilometers from the sports ground.


Taken at face value? Sorry if you can't click on links and methodically go through the information contained therein, I have linked evidence and if you can't be bothered to read it don't reply, as it is you bothered to read the first one but not the others? http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gif Sure makes a convincing argument.You made the claim and have yet to prove that EMEP is a bourgeois party.


Actually, they are present at all rallies,For example?


oftentimes about how the DTP is such a poor repressed organisationIt was shut down yesterday by the constitutional court and over a dozen members banned from politics. :rolleyes:


You might as well just come out and say "we support AKP in their efforts to build a united Turkey". ...why?

[Patchd]

I don't think debating about an area or a sports club is essential in this thread, but otherwise an interesting discussion. I don't know much about Turkish revolutionary politics, what do EMEP do within the working class?


You made the claim and have yet to prove that EMEP is a bourgeois party.With all due respect, I think ls has proven that EMEP is a bourgeois party, he's asserted that EMEP is a Turkish nationalist supporter of the pro-US PKK. Socialism is as far removed from nationalism as fascists are to equality, especially if that nationalism is not one of an oppressed group (which I would still oppose, but can at least understand why people turn to it with the belief that it will lead to their emancipation), as Turkish nationalism isn't. In addition, to support organisations that support imperialist states, is bourgeois. Perhaps these claims are wrong, but you have yet to make a counter argument, after 2 further posts, and so ls has proven, so far, that the EMEP is a bourgeois party. Make a counter, or admit you were wrong.

[PRC-UTE]

I don't think debating about an area or a sports club is essential in this thread, but otherwise an interesting discussion. I don't know much about Turkish revolutionary politics, what do EMEP do within the working class?

This has been addressed:



Levent Tüzel has done more for socialism in Turkey than all of the left communists, anarchists and Trots combined - I am happy to say. Regardless, EMEP was active in supporting the striking teachers lately, as was EMEP youth and tommorow EMEP will be in Kadıköy protesting against the CHP's comments regarding the Dersim uprising. I havent saw the anarchists, Trots, left communists or any other of the ultra-leftists at these things but of course, they're leading the 'real struggle' because 'big colourful rallies' are below them.

[Emre]

How can EMEP be Turkish nationalist, yet support Kurdish nationalism?

All I saw was a few links, no coherent argument regarding this allegation. Unless of course, you consider the above contraption to be some sort of explanation because EMEP opposes US imperialism it must be Turkish imperialist.

Lets see a coherent argument that EMEP is a bourgeois party.

[Patchd]

How can EMEP be Turkish nationalist, yet support Kurdish nationalism?
Yes, that's a fair point, common sense that I completely overlooked. This is not to say that I will support any statist socialists, but I'll take a back seat position in this thread again and just read.

On the point of the teachers' strikes though, I was wondering how EMEP actively worked with the teachers and their struggle, did you co-ordinate with them, fundraise, spread awareness? Just questions, I'm not trying to pick on you.

[ls]

Yes, that's a fair point, common sense that I completely overlooked. This is not to say that I will support any statist socialists, but I'll take a back seat position in this thread again and just read.

No, you were completely correct in the first place, they are Turkish nationalists and Kurdish nationalists too, they are just bourgeois to the core.


How can EMEP be Turkish nationalist, yet support Kurdish nationalism?

You evidently do, don't lie to us here, you have talked about a brotherhood in the region and talked about getting NATO out of "our country", how is that not Turkish nationalism? It doesn't pretend to be for the Kurdish people there, you only ever go as far as gently criticising AKP for being Turkish nationalist and act as if they could and should go in a better direction, they are to be fully denounced and one only need look at the EKS (now ICC) and their criticisms, full-handed of both the AKP, DTP, PKK and all other Turkish and Kurdish bourgeois organisations. It's clear you support DTP, as you yourself have made evident in this thread and as my links prove.


All I saw was a few links, no coherent argument regarding this allegation. Unless of course, you consider the above contraption to be some sort of explanation because EMEP opposes US imperialism it must be Turkish imperialist.

You're hilarious, you only ever gently criticise AKP then you talk about a brotherhood in the region, hey you're not the only ones, Chomsky an "anarchist" supports Turkish nationalism too as do many others, some even go as far as say Kemal was a "state socialist", some clever twat on Wikipedia thought he was state socialist enough to be put into that category. :rolleyes: I suppose oppressing everyone other than "Turks' (which doesn't even exist as a race) is just fine eh.


Lets see a coherent argument that EMEP is a bourgeois party.

I've clearly presented one, you cannot refute it so cease posting.


This has been addressed:

In what way has it been addressed? He's stated they were present at the recent general strike in Turkey, big wow and surprise there.


I don't think debating about an area or a sports club is essential in this thread, but otherwise an interesting discussion. I don't know much about Turkish revolutionary politics, what do EMEP do within the working class?

Didn't you hear? They run a radio station and a TV network and participate in elections, gasp how revolutionary.


With all due respect, I think ls has proven that EMEP is a bourgeois party, he's asserted that EMEP is a Turkish nationalist supporter of the pro-US PKK. Socialism is as far removed from nationalism as fascists are to equality, especially if that nationalism is not one of an oppressed group (which I would still oppose, but can at least understand why people turn to it with the belief that it will lead to their emancipation), as Turkish nationalism isn't. In addition, to support organisations that support imperialist states, is bourgeois. Perhaps these claims are wrong, but you have yet to make a counter argument, after 2 further posts, and so ls has proven, so far, that the EMEP is a bourgeois party. Make a counter, or admit you were wrong.

Thank you, he has not claimed anything against my arguments.

It is a fact that one can play two cards as they have, EMEP hypocritically supports the struggles of the oppressed Kurdish people via the utterly bourgeois DTP and the Pro-American PKK yet also supports a "brotherhood" in the region - indirectly supporting AKP in that respect, it also runs slogans under the (extremely popular by Turkish nationalist standards) guise of anti-Americanism and "getting NATO out of our country".

One only need look at my links to see all these claims proven.


Actually, the sports clubs isnt even in Galatasaray. Double clown. :)

And I've never heard anyone refer to just "Galatasaray" and mean anything other than the FC in my life, seeing as I've grown up around a large amount of Turkish-born Galatasaray supporters isn't that kind of surprising, no not really as even Google doesn't really talk about the area when queried does it?

http://www.google.com.tr/search?q=galatasaray
http://www.google.com/search?q=galatasaray

What is the first result on the Turkish and English ones? As you'd say, double clown.


You made the claim and have yet to prove that EMEP is a bourgeois party.

Still waiting for you to refute the links, if you are going to keep distracting with irrelevant side points you aren't going to win, simple as. You managed to read my first link to come to the thing about Galatasaray but you magically can't be bothered to read the others? :rolleyes: It's kind of hard to swallow.


For example?

For example, ask Devrim and Leo's pretty nasty ordeals throughout the various mass strikes and times when the PKK were being attacked in Iraq provoking an insane response in terms of the surge of Turkish nationalism, I'm sure they will tell you how dangerous it can be to be internationalists in Turkey - instead of panderers to Turkish nationalism as you consistently and provenly are.


It was shut down yesterday by the constitutional court and over a dozen members banned from politics. :rolleyes:

And do you think that principled Irish Republican Socialists support Sinn Fein as a parasitical bourgeois-left anti-worker organisation? No way, DTP are even more bourgeois than Sinn Fein comparatively.

Is it coincidence that Chomsky who also endorses your views, also endorses the reactionary Good Friday Agreement? :cool:


...why?

Because you support DTP, the bourgeois party and you support "brotherhood" in the region as I have proven, if you would read my links. :rolleyes:.

What's the matter, having a tough time reading your own organisation's propaganda? Having a tough time swallowing your own ultra-opportunistic medicine? Yeah thought as much. :cool: ;)

[Emre]

You evidently do, don't lie to us here, you have talked about a brotherhood in the region and talked about getting NATO out of "our country", how is that not Turkish nationalism? It doesn't pretend to be for the Kurdish people there, you only ever go as far as gently criticising AKP for being Turkish nationalist and act as if they could and should go in a better direction, they are to be fully denounced and one only need look at the EKS (now ICC) and their criticisms, full-handed of both the AKP, DTP, PKK and all other Turkish and Kurdish bourgeois organisations. It's clear you support DTP, as you yourself have made evident in this thread and as my links prove.How about some sources for these statements? Because you make no sense. According to you, EMEP is Turkish nationalist, but supports Kurdish nationalism and you claim EMEP supports the AKP but also supports the PKK. There is a contradiction here.

Regarding Turkey being 'our country' - how is that nationalist? Turkey belongs to the workers who inhabit it. Does it not?

About 'Brotherhood', if you had bothered to read or learn anything about the left here its a common slogan - 'Long live the brotherhood of the peoples' - 'Yaşasın halklarin kardeşliği'


And I've never heard anyone refer to just "Galatasaray" and mean anything other than the FC in my life, seeing as I've grown up around a large amount of Turkish-born Galatasaray supporters isn't that kind of surprising, no not really as even Google doesn't really talk about the area when queried does it?

http://www.google.com.tr/search?q=galatasaray (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.google.com.tr/search?q=galatasaray)
http://www.google.com/search?q=galatasaray (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.google.com/search?q=galatasaray)

What is the first result on the Turkish and English ones? As you'd say, double clown.Yeah, keep digging.

They marched to Galatasaray square, no where near the football ground. Load up Google maps and look yourself.


Still waiting for you to refute the linksYou posted some links. What do you want me to say? You've absolutely no argument. How can I refute something if you're not prosenting an article backed up by fact and example.


For example, ask Devrim and Leo's pretty nasty ordeals throughout the various mass strikes and times when the PKK were being attacked in Iraq provoking an insane response in terms of the surge of Turkish nationalism, I'm sure they will tell you how dangerous it can be to be internationalists in Turkey - instead of panderers to Turkish nationalism as you consistently and provenly are.
Oh yeah, how dangerous and ''illegal'' they are compared to the Stalinists who never did anything. The Left Communist group are absolutely unheard of. Simple as. Everyone has to start somewhere but journalists from Evrensel have been murdered, members of EMEP and the predecessor organisations murdered and imprisoned. The same has quite simply not happened to the ultra-leftist organisations other than those from the Guevaraist tradition which organisations like THKC, THKO and TKP-ML all had common origin.



What's the matter, having a tough time reading your own organisation's propaganda?Unfortunalty you cant read Turkish and have no idea of the situation of the Turkish left and simple geography as proven by your points about 'brotherhood' and Galatasaray.

[Devrim]

Can LS defend his assertion that EMEP is a bourgeois party?

I asked LS to do so here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/why-do-youth-t124162/index.html?p=1620548#post1620548) and he refused, instead he gave me negative rep stating:

''And there are a lot of satellites here too moron, also the head of the union DISK among all kinds of other leaders has been assassinated? What's your point? EMEP simply is bourgeois.''

All he did was repeat the same assertion.

I have also read other allegations regarding EMEP and Evrensel newspaper from Leo and Devrim. Regarding these, I will say one thing. EMEP may not be perfect but atleast it exists outside of the internet unlike this 'Sol Komünist' group. Unlike Devrim and Leo who always like to claim some sort of illegality, the TDKP actually was (read: is) an illegal organisation, comrades from which were murdered. You will remember our 17 year old comrade Erdal Eren, whose anniversary is soon.

The head of DİSK was shot, not assassinated. But I am the idiot Stalinist who is a member of a bourgeois party and knows nothing, of course.

Emre, I am perfectly happy to discuss the nature of EMEP. However, I don't think that the tone or atmosphere on this thread is conducive to it. Certainly, I don't think that calling a foreigner a clown or a moron because they don't know the geography of Istanbul doesn't clarify political discussion in anyway at all, and actually whilst we are on the subject of the things that you are correcting him on, the first head of DİSK was assassinated.

As for the comments that you make about our organisation, I hardly see the relevance to the question. Let's be very clear about this, EMEP being a bourgeois party or not has absolutely no relationship to our organisation, nor if I were a 14 year old nerd who never left his computer, or a 130 communist über militant, who was actually there planning the Russian revolution with Lenin. Actually, I am neither, but it wouldn't effect the argument either way.

On the question of our organisation though, it is an international organisation with members in 16 countries and a tiny section in Turkey. It does have an existence outside of the internet. It has publications. You can see our members at demonstrations, though more in Ankara than Istanbul where I think you live.

If you want to discuss it, I am quite willing to, but if you just want to throw abuse at people, I am not at all interested.

Devrim

[Emre]

Sorry Devrim, I didn't call him a moron. You'll find he was the person who set the tone for the discussion by calling me a moron in the first instance. Regarding Galatasaray, its relevent because he thought EMEP marching there had something to do with Galatasaray fans being reactionary, despite the fact the football ground is nowhere near the square and lise. If EMEP 'being a bourgeois party' has no relation to your organisation then end the sour grapes and stop the nonsense about Evrensel and Hayat TV.

[Dimentio]

What is an emep?

[Devrim]

Sorry Devrim, I didn't call him a moron. You'll find he was the person who set the tone for the discussion by calling me a moron in the first instance.

My mistake, sorry. I didn't realise that was I quote, or that this had originally come from another thread. Yes, he is out of order for calling you a moron.


If EMEP 'being a bourgeois party' has no relation to your organisation then end the sour grapes and stop the nonsense about Evrensel and Hayat TV.

Maybe I didn't express what I meant very well. What I was trying to say that whether EMEP is a bourgeois party or not is independent of anything you may say about our organisation. Please feel free to criticse all you want though. It doesn't affect the point about EMEP though.

On the point of 'nonsense' about Evrensel and Hayat TV I don't really know what you are talking about. I searched through my posts and came up with three comments on them that I had made.

One on Hayat TV talking about its popularity:



Maybe you should bear in mind though that Hayat is a satellite TV station, and think about how many people have a satellite system in a country like Turkey. In Ankara, where I live, (where there is a good, cheap cable system, which costs $4.78 a month, which incidentally I don't personally have), I know one person (a foriegner) who has satalitte TV (in other cities it is more common). I have personally never seen this chanel and I asked a few people about it and none of them had seen it either though one person I asked did have two friends, members of EMEP, who worked there.

I would imagine it has very few viewers.


I think that is pretty fair comment.

I have made two comments which mentioned Evrensel, both referring to the interview that they printed that some people in Lebanon had made up:



Fanatical Muslims have a habit of using leftist rhetoric to gain support in western countries.

Leftists also have a habit of attributing leftist rhetoric to them. Like the infamous Evrensel interview, which was publicised by various leftists around the world.


If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli.

It is difficult to tell if it is real. All of those quotes from Evrensel of Nasrallah talking left last year were certainly fabricated. The original source is the New York Times, certainly not a paper sympathetic to Hezbollah. As far as I know Nasrallah's camp hasn't denied him saying this though, which has happened in the past when he has been misquoted.

I think that going on about Hezbollah's anti-Semitism is somewhat missing the point though.

That said, I don't see any problem with criticising either these or EMEP. I just don't see why you think I spend my time doing it.

Devrim

[ls]

How about some sources for these statements? Because you make no sense. According to you, EMEP is Turkish nationalist, but supports Kurdish nationalism and you claim EMEP supports the AKP but also supports the PKK. There is a contradiction here.

Sorry Emre, but I have stated five times now that my links are the sources, if you can't be bothered to click through them then you have no right to reply.


Regarding Turkey being 'our country' - how is that nationalist? Turkey belongs to the workers who inhabit it. Does it not?

By that logic one could justify any slogan.


About 'Brotherhood', if you had bothered to read or learn anything about the left here its a common slogan - 'Long live the brotherhood of the peoples' - 'Yaşasın halklarin kardeşliği'

Do you want to show me where they used that slogan from my link?

Granted, the Turkish to English translation is a bit jumbled, but they use brotherhood wildly differently from that context: "Winner of the imperialists and their collaborators, but Turkey and other Balkan peoples will be brothers" - I think it is quite clear what this means, no internationalism there I'm afraid.


Yeah, keep digging.

They marched to Galatasaray square, no where near the football ground. Load up Google maps and look yourself.

Do you want to show me where they wrote 'Galatasaray square' on the article? No, because you can't: "the Labor Party, or EMEP, first gathered at Galatasaray and chanted slogans against the United States, including "We would not be American soldiers" and "Murderer U.S., get out of the Middle East," before marching on İstiklal Street."


You posted some links. What do you want me to say? You've absolutely no argument. How can I refute something if you're not prosenting an article backed up by fact and example.

Two of them are from your very own organisation, if you don't accept what your own organisation says as factual, then damn.....


Oh yeah, how dangerous and ''illegal'' they are compared to the Stalinists who never did anything. The Left Communist group are absolutely unheard of. Simple as.

This is basically what was being said about, you have the strange perception that just because an organisation is heard about - which let's face it is not to be expected if they are a truly strong organisation, in a country like Turkey, they should work underground.


Unfortunalty you cant read Turkish and have no idea of the situation of the Turkish left and simple geography as proven by your points about 'brotherhood' and Galatasaray.

It's pretty clear that you aren't using the typical Turkish brotherhood slogan, it's also evidently clear that your point about Galatasaray doesn't stand at all - and finally you still haven't refuted what your own organisation is saying.


Sorry Devrim, I didn't call him a moron. You'll find he was the person who set the tone for the discussion by calling me a moron in the first instance.

It seemed like you were simply trying to start a trollish argument from the start, the whole point of negrepping you was to take it away from the main boards. Obviously, you like boring drama and are unable or unwilling to factually address very relevant points when they are presented to you.

Also, it was you who started off with 'clown' on this thread and it was you who decided to start this thread in the first place, based on a negative rep message.


Regarding Galatasaray, its relevent because he thought EMEP marching there had something to do with Galatasaray fans being reactionary

My now irrelevant point was that I thought EMEP were targeting Galatasaray FC fans because in general, they tend to be very nationalistic, the article simply said 'Galatasaray' which I've never heard in my life used to refer to the square - and I've heard it a great many times, usually by fans cheering and beebing their horns outside along with chants.


My mistake, sorry. I didn't realise that was I quote, or that this had originally come from another thread. Yes, he is out of order for calling you a moron.

It came from a negative reputation message I left for him after he had been trolling, so he decided to make a thread based on it.

[Emre]

Sorry Emre, but I have stated five times now that my links are the sources, if you can't be bothered to click through them then you have no right to reply.You have pasted some links and a detached argument. I cannot see the correlation between them.


Do you want to show me where they wrote 'Galatasaray square' on the article? No, because you can't: "the Labor Party, or EMEP, first gathered at Galatasaray and chanted slogans against the United States, including "We would not be American soldiers" and "Murderer U.S., get out of the Middle East," before marching on İstiklal Street."http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Galatasaray+Meydan%C4%B1&sll=41.034354,28.982384&sspn=0.007348,0.021136&tr=UTF8&hq=Galatasaray+Meydan%C4%B1&hnear=&ll=41.034095,28.982534&spn=0.007348,0.021136&t=h&z=16&iwloc=lyrftr:h,0x14cab76066310953:0xd6705f9331ca81 3e,41.033512,28.977385 (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Galatasaray+Meydan%C4%B1&sll=41.034354,28.982384&sspn=0.007348,0.021136&ie=UTF8&hq=Galatasaray+Meydan%C4%B1&hnear=&ll=41.034095,28.982534&spn=0.007348,0.021136&t=h&z=16&iwloc=lyrftr:h,0x14cab76066310953:0xd6705f9331ca81 3e,41.033512,28.977385)

You can see that Galatasaray Square is on İstiklal Street and its name as indicated by the tram stop. To march from the Galatasaray Stadium to İstiklal would be impossible unless in a mass demonstration. Even then, it makes no sense because of the location. The stadium isn't even called Galatasaray either.

Here is the stadium on Google maps:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Ali+Sami+Yen&sll=38.065392,-95.712891&sspn=29.26486,86.572266&tr=UTF8&hq=Ali+Sami+Yen&hnear=&radius=15000&ll=41.06421,29.00352&spn=0.013752,0.042272&t=h&z=15 (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Ali+Sami+Yen&sll=38.065392,-95.712891&sspn=29.26486,86.572266&ie=UTF8&hq=Ali+Sami+Yen&hnear=&radius=15000&ll=41.06421,29.00352&spn=0.013752,0.042272&t=h&z=15)

No where near İstiklal. Nothing to do with EMEP.


"Winner of the imperialists and their collaborators, but Turkey and other Balkan peoples will be brothers" - I think it is quite clear what this means, no internationalism there I'm afraid.''and other Balkan peoples will be brothers" is not internationalist? You know what it refers to. NATO aggression and esponiage, which both the Balkans and Turkey has first hand experience of.


they should work underground.By whining on revleft about their 'illegality'?

[Devrim]

By whining on revleft about their 'illegality'?

I don't think that I whine about illegality. In fact I don't think I even use the word. I think non-legal is much more apt. There are proscribed organisations in Turkey, and we are obviously not one of them. These are illegal. However, it is not legal to publish a newspaper or magazine without it being offical registered, and people can be prosecuted for membership of non-legal organisations or for distributing non-legal publications. You as well as I know that this happens.

Devrim

[ls]

You have pasted some links and a detached argument. I cannot see the correlation between them.

Well, I think others can, so now we are just going around in circles, I think it's time this thread is closed if you can't understand the correlation and refute the arguments made collectively.


http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Galatasaray+Meydan%C4%B1&sll=41.034354,28.982384&sspn=0.007348,0.021136&tr=UTF8&hq=Galatasaray+Meydan%C4%B1&hnear=&ll=41.034095,28.982534&spn=0.007348,0.021136&t=h&z=16&iwloc=lyrftr:h,0x14cab76066310953:0xd6705f9331ca81 3e,41.033512,28.977385 (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Galatasaray+Meydan%C4%B1&sll=41.034354,28.982384&sspn=0.007348,0.021136&ie=UTF8&hq=Galatasaray+Meydan%C4%B1&hnear=&ll=41.034095,28.982534&spn=0.007348,0.021136&t=h&z=16&iwloc=lyrftr:h,0x14cab76066310953:0xd6705f9331ca81 3e,41.033512,28.977385)

You can see that Galatasaray Square is on İstiklal Street and its name as indicated by the tram stop. To march from the Galatasaray Stadium to İstiklal would be impossible unless in a mass demonstration. Even then, it makes no sense because of the location. The stadium isn't even called Galatasaray either.

Here is the stadium on Google maps:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Ali+Sami+Yen&sll=38.065392,-95.712891&sspn=29.26486,86.572266&tr=UTF8&hq=Ali+Sami+Yen&hnear=&radius=15000&ll=41.06421,29.00352&spn=0.013752,0.042272&t=h&z=15 (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Ali+Sami+Yen&sll=38.065392,-95.712891&sspn=29.26486,86.572266&ie=UTF8&hq=Ali+Sami+Yen&hnear=&radius=15000&ll=41.06421,29.00352&spn=0.013752,0.042272&t=h&z=15)

No where near İstiklal. Nothing to do with EMEP.

And? I've already said I was mistaken. It's not surprising as I don't know the intimate geography of Istanbul, nor do I know all the phrases in Turkish of placenames in Istanbul.

But your argument that I don't know anything about the Turkish workers movement because of my misunderstanding of differences between placenames in a city is ridiculous, it would be just as ridiculous if I said you knew nothing of the UK workers movement because you didn't know the difference in terms between a localish school, FC and a square. It is equally confusing here at times and I have met people from the rest of England - outside London who had almost no knowledge of many of the central London placenames, also I'm sure the same is true in Turkey of many people from outside Istanbul as well.

Nonetheless, it was only a small point in the beginning, you are trying to turn it into the focal point of discussion, really your whole set of points are complete strawmen and distractions from addressing the actual discussion.


''and other Balkan peoples will be brothers" is not internationalist? You know what it refers to. NATO aggression and esponiage, which both the Balkans and Turkey has first hand experience of.

Yes of course it isn't internationalist, EMEP even talks about Armenian-Turkish relations in the article as if it's a good thing, do you think that bourgeois leaders meeting is really a good thing?


By whining on revleft about their 'illegality'?

This is quite frankly hilarious coming from you - after some of the stuff you've come out with.

[zimmerwald1915]

Regarding Turkey being 'our country' - how is that nationalist? Turkey belongs to the workers who inhabit it. Does it not?
Put simply, no, it does not. Unless I'm seriously misinformed, which is all too possible because I'm an ignorant Amurrkan who doesn't speak or read Turkish, it is the bourgeoisie that is the ruling class in Turkey. To repeat a hackneyed old slogan, workers have no country. To claim otherwise is to attempt to tie the workers to the state, to attempt to make the nation a social organism rather than composed of several antagonistic forces. In otherwords, claiming a country is "our country" is flat-out class-collaborationist.

[Leo]

By whining on revleft about their 'illegality'? Interesting quote, you seem to have quite a good memory of arguements from the times you weren't registered on revleft, because I remember another poster making a similar non-point about this, again without any knowledge of our status or activities. Coming to think of it, he too was into EMEP... Strange, no?

[Emre]

And? I've already said I was mistaken. It's not surprising as I don't know the intimate geography of Istanbul, nor do I know all the phrases in Turkish of placenames in Istanbul.
It has nothing to do with geography. You said EMEP marched from Galatasaray's football stadium because the fans there are 'reactonary' as if to suggest EMEP rely on reactionaries for support. When corrected, you insisted I was wrong and said the stadium was a central part of the area.


Interesting quote, you seem to have quite a good memory of arguements from the times you weren't registered on revleft, because I remember another poster making a similar non-point about this, again without any knowledge of our status or activities. Coming to think of it, he too was into EMEP... Strange, no?
I was reading past posts regarding EMEP and I think both you and Devrim have a penchant for attacking other leftist organisations at the expense of building your own. PTC-UTE also mentioned the legality issue in old posts. If you look at the first page, Devrim has again made an argument about legality which is correct from a legal prespective but in reality is false. By this logic, all the Turkish parties with Communist in their name can claim to be underground and illegal organisations. If it is 'strange' then you can check who Emre Kızılkurt is in the Evrensel youth paper and which university I study at.


Yes of course it isn't internationalist, EMEP even talks about Armenian-Turkish relations in the article as if it's a good thing, do you think that bourgeois leaders meeting is really a good thing?Why is it not internationalist? The thawing of relations between Turkey and Armenia are positive things - why is this not the case?


On the point of 'nonsense' about Evrensel and Hayat TV I don't really know what you are talking about. I searched through my posts and came up with three comments on them that I had made.You had in the past said about Hayat TV's popularity and furthermore stated something about Evrensel treating its workers poorly. Yes, Hayat TV is just one of a few hundred private TV stations - most of them awful and most people don't watch them or know of them. But Hayat TV and Evrensel provides a unique prespective and EMEP is the most successful attempt by a Turkish left party to establish legality, even if they are still not widely recnogised they are better than nothing. The DHKP, TKP-ML, MLKP etc have all failed, in my opionion, to establish legal structures.

[Devrim]

I was reading past posts regarding EMEP and I think both you and Devrim have a penchant for attacking other leftist organisations at the expense of building your own.

But then if you think that these organisations have bourgeois politics, shouldn't you attack them?


PTC-UTE also mentioned the legality issue in old posts. If you look at the first page, Devrim has again made an argument about legality which is correct from a legal prespective but in reality is false.

The level of repression in Turkey at the moment is certainly comparatively low compared to, say, the period after the coup. However, people are still arrested for membership of non-legal organisations.


If it is 'strange' then you can check who Emre Kızılkurt is in the Evrensel youth paper and which university I study at.

On a personal note, Emre, I think this is very foolish. It isn't because I think that the state will pick you up tomorrow, but I do think in the future when you leave university, it will certainly not help your prospects of finding a job. Employers regularly run checks on people who apply for jobs, and the least that they will do is check out the Internet, and if this is your real name, I don't think running a blog with big pictures of Stalin on it is at all a good idea.


You had in the past said about Hayat TV's popularity and furthermore stated something about Evrensel treating its workers poorly.

I think the comment's about Hayat's popularity were fair It was just trying to give people who don't live here an idea rather than them just thinking "Wow they have a TV station". I am not sure where the thing about Evrensel treating its workers poorly comes from at all. Here are the search results for all of my comments on Evrensel:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/search.php?searchid=1946933
I certainly have no memory of saying it and the search results seem to agree with that.

Having said that, I don't think there is any problem in criticising what you see as a bourgeois party. It is just that I am quite bemused about being criticised for saying things I haven't said.

I think on the whole point about bourgeois politics there is a complete comprehension gap between us on what bourgeois politics is. Some of the comments you make to me come across so obviously as expressions of bourgeois politics, like for example these:

Why is it not internationalist? The thawing of relations between Turkey and Armenia are positive things - why is this not the case?

Regarding Turkey being 'our country' - how is that nationalist? Turkey belongs to the workers who inhabit it. Does it not?

But then it is hardly surprising as you presumably think that the USSR under Stalin had something to do with socialism, whereas we think it was just another capitalist state.

Devrim

[ls]

It has nothing to do with geography. You said EMEP marched from Galatasaray's football stadium because the fans there are 'reactonary' as if to suggest EMEP rely on reactionaries for support. When corrected, you insisted I was wrong and said the stadium was a central part of the area.

Actually I wrote, after your first correction
..nonetheless apologies about mistaking the area with the sports club..

..realising that EMEP hadn't marched there, then I wrote in the same post (so that people understood why I had made the mistake)
..though it is an extremely central feature of the area. ..which later I realised was also a mistake. I'd realised you meant that EMEP were not marching at the FC in that post (and as a member of EMEP, obviously I am not going to disbelieve you), but I considered it only natural that the FC would be central to the general area of the same name, so once again I wouldn't particularly attack you for making a similar mistake here because 90% of the time you would be correct.


Why is it not internationalist? The thawing of relations between Turkey and Armenia are positive things - why is this not the case?

Of course it isn't internationalist, believing that change is going to come from bourgeois leaders meeting to discuss "relations" is simply reformist.


But Hayat TV and Evrensel provides a unique prespective and EMEP is the most successful attempt by a Turkish left party to establish legality, even if they are still not widely recnogised they are better than nothing. The DHKP, TKP-ML, MLKP etc have all failed, in my opionion, to establish legal structures.

Why do you think establishing legality to Turkey's bourgeois is so important? Why? Do you truly believe you won't suffer repression soon enough anyway? Just like DTP..

[Leo]

If it is 'strange' then you can check who Emre Kızılkurt is in the Evrensel youth paper and which university I study at.

I might in fact do that, but in the meanwhile, can you tell me how you feel about Robert Mugabe?