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RED DAVE
11th December 2009, 22:16
Your Majesties, Your Royal Highnesses, Distinguished Members of the Norwegian Nobel Committee, citizens of America, and citizens of the world:

I receive this honor with deep gratitude and great humility. It is an award that speaks to our highest aspirations - that for all the cruelty and hardship of our world, we are not mere prisoners of fate. Our actions matter, and can bend history in the direction of justice.

And yet I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge the considerable controversy that your generous decision has generated. In part, this is because I am at the beginning, and not the end, of my labors on the world stage. Compared to some of the giants of history who have received this prize - Schweitzer and King; Marshall and Mandela - my accomplishments are slight. And then there are the men and women around the world who have been jailed and beaten in the pursuit of justice; those who toil in humanitarian organizations to relieve suffering; the unrecognized millions whose quiet acts of courage and compassion inspire even the most hardened of cynics. I cannot argue with those who find these men and women - some known, some obscure to all but those they help - to be far more deserving of this honor than I.
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But perhaps the most profound issue surrounding my receipt of this prize is the fact that I am the Commander-in-Chief of a nation in the midst of two wars. One of these wars is winding down. The other is a conflict that America did not seek; one in which we are joined by forty three other countries - including Norway - in an effort to defend ourselves and all nations from further attacks.

Still, we are at war, and I am responsible for the deployment of thousands of young Americans to battle in a distant land. Some will kill. Some will be killed. And so I come here with an acute sense of the cost of armed conflict - filled with difficult questions about the relationship between war and peace, and our effort to replace one with the other.

These questions are not new. War, in one form or another, appeared with the first man. At the dawn of history, its morality was not questioned; it was simply a fact, like drought or disease - the manner in which tribes and then civilizations sought power and settled their differences.

Over time, as codes of law sought to control violence within groups, so did philosophers, clerics, and statesmen seek to regulate the destructive power of war. The concept of a "just war" emerged, suggesting that war is justified only when it meets certain preconditions: if it is waged as a last resort or in self-defense; if the forced used is proportional, and if, whenever possible, civilians are spared from violence.

For most of history, this concept of just war was rarely observed. The capacity of human beings to think up new ways to kill one another proved inexhaustible, as did our capacity to exempt from mercy those who look different or pray to a different God. Wars between armies gave way to wars between nations - total wars in which the distinction between combatant and civilian became blurred. In the span of thirty years, such carnage would twice engulf this continent. And while it is hard to conceive of a cause more just than the defeat of the Third Reich and the Axis powers, World War II was a conflict in which the total number of civilians who died exceeded the number of soldiers who perished.

In the wake of such destruction, and with the advent of the nuclear age, it became clear to victor and vanquished alike that the world needed institutions to prevent another World War. And so, a quarter century after the United States Senate rejected the League of Nations - an idea for which Woodrow Wilson received this Prize - America led the world in constructing an architecture to keep the peace: a Marshall Plan and a United Nations, mechanisms to govern the waging of war, treaties to protect human rights, prevent genocide, and restrict the most dangerous weapons.

In many ways, these efforts succeeded. Yes, terrible wars have been fought, and atrocities committed. But there has been no Third World War. The Cold War ended with jubilant crowds dismantling a wall. Commerce has stitched much of the world together. Billions have been lifted from poverty. The ideals of liberty, self-determination, equality and the rule of law have haltingly advanced. We are the heirs of the fortitude and foresight of generations past, and it is a legacy for which my own country is rightfully proud.

A decade into a new century, this old architecture is buckling under the weight of new threats. The world may no longer shudder at the prospect of war between two nuclear superpowers, but proliferation may increase the risk of catastrophe. Terrorism has long been a tactic, but modern technology allows a few small men with outsized rage to murder innocents on a horrific scale.

Moreover, wars between nations have increasingly given way to wars within nations. The resurgence of ethnic or sectarian conflicts; the growth of secessionist movements, insurgencies, and failed states; have increasingly trapped civilians in unending chaos. In today's wars, many more civilians are killed than soldiers; the seeds of future conflict are sewn, economies are wrecked, civil societies torn asunder, refugees amassed, and children scarred.

I do not bring with me today a definitive solution to the problems of war. What I do know is that meeting these challenges will require the same vision, hard work, and persistence of those men and women who acted so boldly decades ago. And it will require us to think in new ways about the notions of just war and the imperatives of a just peace.

We must begin by acknowledging the hard truth that we will not eradicate violent conflict in our lifetimes. There will be times when nations - acting individually or in concert - will find the use of force not only necessary but morally justified.
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I make this statement mindful of what Martin Luther King said in this same ceremony years ago - "Violence never brings permanent peace. It solves no social problem: it merely creates new and more complicated ones." As someone who stands here as a direct consequence of Dr. King's life's work, I am living testimony to the moral force of non-violence. I know there is nothing weak -nothing passive - nothing naïve - in the creed and lives of Gandhi and King.

But as a head of state sworn to protect and defend my nation, I cannot be guided by their examples alone. I face the world as it is, and cannot stand idle in the face of threats to the American people. For make no mistake: evil does exist in the world. A non-violent movement could not have halted Hitler's armies. Negotiations cannot convince al Qaeda's leaders to lay down their arms. To say that force is sometimes necessary is not a call to cynicism - it is a recognition of history; the imperfections of man and the limits of reason.

I raise this point because in many countries there is a deep ambivalence about military action today, no matter the cause. At times, this is joined by a reflexive suspicion of America, the world's sole military superpower.

Yet the world must remember that it was not simply international institutions - not just treaties and declarations - that brought stability to a post-World War II world. Whatever mistakes we have made, the plain fact is this: the United States of America has helped underwrite global security for more than six decades with the blood of our citizens and the strength of our arms. The service and sacrifice of our men and women in uniform has promoted peace and prosperity from Germany to Korea, and enabled democracy to take hold in places like the Balkans. We have borne this burden not because we seek to impose our will. We have done so out of enlightened self-interest - because we seek a better future for our children and grandchildren, and we believe that their lives will be better if other peoples' children and grandchildren can live in freedom and prosperity.

So yes, the instruments of war do have a role to play in preserving the peace. And yet this truth must coexist with another - that no matter how justified, war promises human tragedy. The soldier's courage and sacrifice is full of glory, expressing devotion to country, to cause and to comrades in arms. But war itself is never glorious, and we must never trumpet it as such.

So part of our challenge is reconciling these two seemingly irreconcilable truths - that war is sometimes necessary, and war is at some level an expression of human feelings. Concretely, we must direct our effort to the task that President Kennedy called for long ago. "Let us focus," he said, "on a more practical, more attainable peace, based not on a sudden revolution in human nature but on a gradual evolution in human institutions."

What might this evolution look like? What might these practical steps be?

To begin with, I believe that all nations - strong and weak alike - must adhere to standards that govern the use of force. I - like any head of state - reserve the right to act unilaterally if necessary to defend my nation. Nevertheless, I am convinced that adhering to standards strengthens those who do, and isolates - and weakens - those who don't.

The world rallied around America after the 9/11 attacks, and continues to support our efforts in Afghanistan, because of the horror of those senseless attacks and the recognized principle of self-defense. Likewise, the world recognized the need to confront Saddam Hussein when he invaded Kuwait - a consensus that sent a clear message to all about the cost of aggression.

Furthermore, America cannot insist that others follow the rules of the road if we refuse to follow them ourselves. For when we don't, our action can appear arbitrary, and undercut the legitimacy of future intervention - no matter how justified.

This becomes particularly important when the purpose of military action extends beyond self defense or the defense of one nation against an aggressor. More and more, we all confront difficult questions about how to prevent the slaughter of civilians by their own government, or to stop a civil war whose violence and suffering can engulf an entire region.

I believe that force can be justified on humanitarian grounds, as it was in the Balkans, or in other places that have been scarred by war. Inaction tears at our conscience and can lead to more costly intervention later. That is why all responsible nations must embrace the role that militaries with a clear mandate can play to keep the peace.

America's commitment to global security will never waiver. But in a world in which threats are more diffuse, and missions more complex, America cannot act alone. This is true in Afghanistan. This is true in failed states like Somalia, where terrorism and piracy is joined by famine and human suffering. And sadly, it will continue to be true in unstable regions for years to come.

The leaders and soldiers of NATO countries - and other friends and allies - demonstrate this truth through the capacity and courage they have shown in Afghanistan. But in many countries, there is a disconnect between the efforts of those who serve and the ambivalence of the broader public. I understand why war is not popular. But I also know this: the belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it. Peace requires responsibility. Peace entails sacrifice. That is why NATO continues to be indispensable. That is why we must strengthen UN and regional peacekeeping, and not leave the task to a few countries. That is why we honor those who return home from peacekeeping and training abroad to Oslo and Rome; to Ottawa and Sydney; to Dhaka and Kigali - we honor them not as makers of war, but as wagers of peace.

Let me make one final point about the use of force. Even as we make difficult decisions about going to war, we must also think clearly about how we fight it. The Nobel Committee recognized this truth in awarding its first prize for peace to Henry Dunant - the founder of the Red Cross, and a driving force behind the Geneva Conventions.

Where force is necessary, we have a moral and strategic interest in binding ourselves to certain rules of conduct. And even as we confront a vicious adversary that abides by no rules, I believe that the United States of America must remain a standard bearer in the conduct of war. That is what makes us different from those whom we fight. That is a source of our strength. That is why I prohibited torture. That is why I ordered the prison at Guantanamo Bay closed. And that is why I have reaffirmed America's commitment to abide by the Geneva Conventions. We lose ourselves when we compromise the very ideals that we fight to defend. And we honor those ideals by upholding them not just when it is easy, but when it is hard.

I have spoken to the questions that must weigh on our minds and our hearts as we choose to wage war. But let me turn now to our effort to avoid such tragic choices, and speak of three ways that we can build a just and lasting peace.

First, in dealing with those nations that break rules and laws, I believe that we must develop alternatives to violence that are tough enough to change behavior - for if we want a lasting peace, then the words of the international community must mean something. Those regimes that break the rules must be held accountable. Sanctions must exact a real price. Intransigence must be met with increased pressure - and such pressure exists only when the world stands together as one.

One urgent example is the effort to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons, and to seek a world without them. In the middle of the last century, nations agreed to be bound by a treaty whose bargain is clear: all will have access to peaceful nuclear power; those without nuclear weapons will forsake them; and those with nuclear weapons will work toward disarmament. I am committed to upholding this treaty. It is a centerpiece of my foreign policy. And I am working with President Medvedev to reduce America and Russia's nuclear stockpiles.

But it is also incumbent upon all of us to insist that nations like Iran and North Korea do not game the system. Those who claim to respect international law cannot avert their eyes when those laws are flouted. Those who care for their own security cannot ignore the danger of an arms race in the Middle East or East Asia. Those who seek peace cannot stand idly by as nations arm themselves for nuclear war.

The same principle applies to those who violate international law by brutalizing their own people. When there is genocide in Darfur; systematic rape in Congo; or repression in Burma - there must be consequences. And the closer we stand together, the less likely we will be faced with the choice between armed intervention and complicity in oppression.

This brings me to a second point - the nature of the peace that we seek. For peace is not merely the absence of visible conflict. Only a just peace based upon the inherent rights and dignity of every individual can truly be lasting.

It was this insight that drove drafters of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights after the Second World War. In the wake of devastation, they recognized that if human rights are not protected, peace is a hollow promise.

And yet all too often, these words are ignored. In some countries, the failure to uphold human rights is excused by the false suggestion that these are Western principles, foreign to local cultures or stages of a nation's development. And within America, there has long been a tension between those who describe themselves as realists or idealists - a tension that suggests a stark choice between the narrow pursuit of interests or an endless campaign to impose our values.

I reject this choice. I believe that peace is unstable where citizens are denied the right to speak freely or worship as they please; choose their own leaders or assemble without fear. Pent up grievances fester, and the suppression of tribal and religious identity can lead to violence. We also know that the opposite is true. Only when Europe became free did it finally find peace. America has never fought a war against a democracy, and our closest friends are governments that protect the rights of their citizens. No matter how callously defined, neither America's interests - nor the world's -are served by the denial of human aspirations.

So even as we respect the unique culture and traditions of different countries, America will always be a voice for those aspirations that are universal. We will bear witness to the quiet dignity of reformers like Aung Sang Suu Kyi; to the bravery of Zimbabweans who cast their ballots in the face of beatings; to the hundreds of thousands who have marched silently through the streets of Iran. It is telling that the leaders of these governments fear the aspirations of their own people more than the power of any other nation. And it is the responsibility of all free people and free nations to make clear to these movements that hope and history are on their side

Let me also say this: the promotion of human rights cannot be about exhortation alone. At times, it must be coupled with painstaking diplomacy. I know that engagement with repressive regimes lacks the satisfying purity of indignation. But I also know that sanctions without outreach - and condemnation without discussion - can carry forward a crippling status quo. No repressive regime can move down a new path unless it has the choice of an open door.

In light of the Cultural Revolution's horrors, Nixon's meeting with Mao appeared inexcusable - and yet it surely helped set China on a path where millions of its citizens have been lifted from poverty, and connected to open societies. Pope John Paul's engagement with Poland created space not just for the Catholic Church, but for labor leaders like Lech Walesa. Ronald Reagan's efforts on arms control and embrace of perestroika not only improved relations with the Soviet Union, but empowered dissidents throughout Eastern Europe. There is no simple formula here. But we must try as best we can to balance isolation and engagement; pressure and incentives, so that human rights and dignity are advanced over time.

Third, a just peace includes not only civil and political rights - it must encompass economic security and opportunity. For true peace is not just freedom from fear, but freedom from want.

It is undoubtedly true that development rarely takes root without security; it is also true that security does not exist where human beings do not have access to enough food, or clean water, or the medicine they need to survive. It does not exist where children cannot aspire to a decent education or a job that supports a family. The absence of hope can rot a society from within.

And that is why helping farmers feed their own people - or nations educate their children and care for the sick - is not mere charity. It is also why the world must come together to confront climate change. There is little scientific dispute that if we do nothing, we will face more drought, famine and mass displacement that will fuel more conflict for decades. For this reason, it is not merely scientists and activists who call for swift and forceful action - it is military leaders in my country and others who understand that our common security hangs in the balance.

Agreements among nations. Strong institutions. Support for human rights. Investments in development. All of these are vital ingredients in bringing about the evolution that President Kennedy spoke about. And yet, I do not believe that we will have the will, or the staying power, to complete this work without something more - and that is the continued expansion of our moral imagination; an insistence that there is something irreducible that we all share.

As the world grows smaller, you might think it would be easier for human beings to recognize how similar we are; to understand that we all basically want the same things; that we all hope for the chance to live out our lives with some measure of happiness and fulfillment for ourselves and our families.

And yet, given the dizzying pace of globalization, and the cultural leveling of modernity, it should come as no surprise that people fear the loss of what they cherish about their particular identities - their race, their tribe, and perhaps most powerfully their religion. In some places, this fear has led to conflict. At times, it even feels like we are moving backwards. We see it in Middle East, as the conflict between Arabs and Jews seems to harden. We see it in nations that are torn asunder by tribal lines.

Most dangerously, we see it in the way that religion is used to justify the murder of innocents by those who have distorted and defiled the great religion of Islam, and who attacked my country from Afghanistan. These extremists are not the first to kill in the name of God; the cruelties of the Crusades are amply recorded. But they remind us that no Holy War can ever be a just war. For if you truly believe that you are carrying out divine will, then there is no need for restraint - no need to spare the pregnant mother, or the medic, or even a person of one's own faith. Such a warped view of religion is not just incompatible with the concept of peace, but the purpose of faith - for the one rule that lies at the heart of every major religion is that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

Adhering to this law of love has always been the core struggle of human nature. We are fallible. We make mistakes, and fall victim to the temptations of pride, and power, and sometimes evil. Even those of us with the best intentions will at times fail to right the wrongs before us.

But we do not have to think that human nature is perfect for us to still believe that the human condition can be perfected. We do not have to live in an idealized world to still reach for those ideals that will make it a better place. The non-violence practiced by men like Gandhi and King may not have been practical or possible in every circumstance, but the love that they preached - their faith in human progress - must always be the North Star that guides us on our journey.
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For if we lose that faith - if we dismiss it as silly or naïve; if we divorce it from the decisions that we make on issues of war and peace - then we lose what is best about humanity. We lose our sense of possibility. We lose our moral compass.

Like generations have before us, we must reject that future. As Dr. King said at this occasion so many years ago, "I refuse to accept despair as the final response to the ambiguities of history. I refuse to accept the idea that the 'isness' of man's present nature makes him morally incapable of reaching up for the eternal 'oughtness' that forever confronts him."

So let us reach for the world that ought to be - that spark of the divine that still stirs within each of our souls. Somewhere today, in the here and now, a soldier sees he's outgunned but stands firm to keep the peace. Somewhere today, in this world, a young protestor awaits the brutality of her government, but has the courage to march on. Somewhere today, a mother facing punishing poverty still takes the time to teach her child, who believes that a cruel world still has a place for his dreams.

Let us live by their example. We can acknowledge that oppression will always be with us, and still strive for justice. We can admit the intractability of depravation, and still strive for dignity. We can understand that there will be war, and still strive for peace. We can do that - for that is the story of human progress; that is the hope of all the world; and at this moment of challenge, that must be our work here on Earth.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34360743/ns/politics-white_house/

RED DAVE

New Tet
12th December 2009, 00:03
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34360743/ns/politics-white_house/

RED DAVE

What did you expect, MLK?

One good thing that can be said about that "Irish son-of-a-*****" is this: "Wittingly or not, he's helping to bring down the empire by sending it to fight in a graveyard."

We have to rally around an opposition to the war in Afghanistan almost in the same manner as was done against the war in 'Nam. We have to call for America's defeat in that "war of necessity".

Maybe revolutionary defeatism is the order of the day?

RadioRaheem84
12th December 2009, 00:18
We have to rally around an opposition to the war in Afghanistan almost in the same manner as was done against the war in 'Nam. We have to call for America's defeat in that "war of necessity".

Withdrawal sounds better than defeat. Wishing for their defeat makes it sound like we wish for the Taliban to win or at least that is how it will be played against us (not that withdrawal isn't already). I mean as of now all we're doing is supporting a corrupt government in a civil strife and I am sorry to say but the Taliban are no Viet Cong.

the last donut of the night
12th December 2009, 00:21
The speech should have gone more like this:

Your Majesties, Your Royal Highnesses, Distinguished Members of the Norwegian Nobel Committee, citizens of America, and citizens of the world:

I will take a shit on your faces, and I will take a shit on your children and families. I don't care what you think of mine or my country's actions: hell, we haven't been caring for the last hundred years.

At least it'd be more honest.:mad:

Drace
12th December 2009, 00:21
He doesn't even write his own speeches does he?
Which is a rather intense fact when considering that his speeches contain emotional devices, statistics, facts, etc that he makes seem that they came out of his own mouth.

RED DAVE
12th December 2009, 00:28
No, the Taliban was not the Vietcong, NLF, or the armies of North Vietnam, who liberated Vietnam from US imperialism and eventually set it firmly on the capitalist road.

It may well be that US withdrawal from Afghanistan will mean the victory of the Taliban. This is unfortunate but does not change the demand for immediate, unconditional withdrawal of all foreign troops from Afghanistan.

RED DAVE

RadioRaheem84
12th December 2009, 00:59
It may well be that US withdrawal from Afghanistan will mean the victory of the Taliban. This is unfortunate but does not change the demand for immediate, unconditional withdrawal of all foreign troops from Afghanistan. I sympathized with the pro war left on the issue that fascists like the Taliban represent a break from us fighting the imperialists and sometimes we must hope that the imperialists smash the fascists. BUT these fascists are a roving bunch of culture warriors hiding among the general populace. Killing them equals taking out a chunk of the population. It would've been like smashing the UK because Oswald Mosley and his rabid group of fascists took up arms against the British government.

But then against these groups (Baathists, Jihadists) had taken over the State and repressed millions. What was to be done with them? They had won by crushing the opposition and cemented their power through a repressive state. I am just looking at the perspective through the eyes of a captured Kurdish prisoner rotting away in a Baathist jail.

Opposing occupation is one thing, but what about the removal of these groups from power?

9
12th December 2009, 01:35
I sympathized with the pro war left on the issue that fascists like the Taliban represent a break from us fighting the imperialists and sometimes we must hope that the imperialists smash the fascists. BUT these fascists are a roving bunch of culture warriors hiding among the general populace. Killing them equals taking out a chunk of the population. It would've been like smashing the UK because Oswald Mosley and his rabid group of fascists took up arms against the British government.

But then against these groups (Baathists, Jihadists) had taken over the State and repressed millions. What was to be done with them? They had won by crushing the opposition and cemented their power through a repressive state. I am just looking at the perspective through the eyes of a captured Kurdish prisoner rotting away in a Baathist jail.


You sound more like you're pushing imperialist propaganda. In a war between an imperialist power and an oppressed nation, Leninists take the side of the oppressed nation. I have no shame at all in calling for the defeat of imperialism in Afghanistan and if you do, perhaps you should reconsider your "leftism".


Opposing occupation is one thing, but what about the removal of these groups from power?
US Imperialism has no business removing regimes from power in the third world...are you suggesting otherwise?

RadioRaheem84
12th December 2009, 01:53
You sound more like you're pushing imperialist propaganda. In a war between an imperialist power and an oppressed nation, Leninists take the side of the oppressed nation. I have no shame at all in calling for the defeat of imperialism in Afghanistan and if you do, perhaps you should reconsider your "leftism".Do not be so reactionary! The Spanish Republicans lost the war to Franco. If the UK and US would've neglected the neutrality stance and fought Franco, I doubt a Spanish Republican rotting in a fascist prison would've cared. But this is all moot as we know that the US and UK did not have democratic ideals in mind when invading Afghanistan or Iraq and never had them really during WWII. I only said that I sympathized with the pro-war left stance a little despite their extreme naivety.


US Imperialism has no business removing regimes from power in the third world...are you suggesting otherwise?I am saying that it's not that simple. If the US really cared about democracy it would've funded real pro-democratic struggles during the Cold War but it didn't. The appeal at the time time for many pro-war leftists was that this time could've marked the first time the US reversed it's policy entirely. Those of us on the anti-war side knew better but the pro-war side was hopeful or delusional.

In their delusional and naive state they ended up supporting imperialism by giving the right a moral argument they never even made themselves!

Drace
12th December 2009, 01:55
The Taliban aren't fascists, even if they are as big pricks.

And you do know most of their incentives are money and also to drive out the foreign people from this land?
Taliban pays its soldiers, or rather, mercenaries, more than the Afghan State pays its soldiers.


US Imperialism has no business removing regimes from power in the third world...are you suggesting otherwise?

Although I don't agree that the US should act as the world police, and given their imperialist motives, think they will end up doing more harm then good, but...
this point was raised in a debate and I was not able to answer it.

If the US pulled out its troops, wouldn't the Taliban's influence increase and control more and more of the land?

RadioRaheem84
12th December 2009, 02:01
The Taliban aren't fascists, even if they are as big pricks.

They are pricks because they're fascistic.


And you do know most of their incentives are money and also to drive out the foreign people from this land?

The incentives of the Taliban are financial and they want to drive the foreigners out? Right, so they can establish a feudal disgusting state.


Taliban pays its soldiers, or rather, mercenaries, more than the Afghan State pays its soldiers.

So?

RED DAVE
12th December 2009, 02:07
One more time: if the US pulls out, the Taliban will most likely win and become the government of Afghanistan.

The question is: which is worse from a progressive point of view, US imperialism or a reactionary local regime? I think the answer is obvious.

RED DAVE

Drace
12th December 2009, 02:12
The incentives of the Taliban are financial and they want to drive the foreigners out? Right, so they can establish a feudal disgusting state.

Taliban pays its soldiers, or rather, mercenaries, more than the Afghan State pays its soldiers. No, so they can live. Living conditions are horrible in Iraq and Afghanistan. Jobs and even food are hard to find.
People join the Taliban because they give them what they need, money. The purpose of that was to show that most of the Taliban aren't as extremist as their leaders.



The question is: which is worse from a progressive point of view, US imperialism or a reactionary local regime? I think the answer is obvious.That's not very convincing to someone who thinks the US is there to bring democracy :rolleyes:
Though the Taliban shouldn't be just viewed in such puny terms. They held the government before and it included strict interpretation of Islamic law, suppression of womens rights, heroin trade and the many other extremist views they upheld.

RadioRaheem84
12th December 2009, 02:40
No, so they can live. Living conditions are horrible in Iraq and Afghanistan. Jobs and even food are hard to find.
People join the Taliban because they give them what they need, money. The purpose of that was to show that most of the Taliban aren't as extremist as their leaders..

Agreed. Fighting the Taliban might include genocide against the Pashtun.


That's not very convincing to someone who thinks the US is there to bring democracy
Though the Taliban shouldn't be just viewed in such puny terms. They held the government before and it included strict interpretation of Islamic law, suppression of womens righ:rolleyes:ts, heroin trade and the many other extremist views they upheld

Correction; they eroded the opium trade to as little as 7%, since the US occupation its back up to 90%.

But the point is that they should be opposed just not through NATO arms.

RadioRaheem84
12th December 2009, 02:42
One more time: if the US pulls out, the Taliban will most likely win and become the government of Afghanistan.

Sad but true?


The question is: which is worse from a progressive point of view, US imperialism or a reactionary local regime? I think the answer is obvious.

Huh? Both are undesirable.

Drace
12th December 2009, 02:58
Correction; they eroded the opium trade to as little as 7%, since the US occupation its back up to 90%.




Oh my bad.
Though I don't see why the Taliban did that. Even now, isn't the opium trade what gives them most of their income?

the last donut of the night
12th December 2009, 03:03
They are pricks because they're fascistic.



The incentives of the Taliban are financial and they want to drive the foreigners out? Right, so they can establish a feudal disgusting state.



So?


Feudal state =/= advanced capitalist economy which constitutes fascist economy

RHIZOMES
12th December 2009, 12:16
pro war left

:confused:

ZeroNowhere
12th December 2009, 12:38
Eh, that's incredibly dull. This (http://www.marxists.org/archive/draper/1968/04/king.htm) is a far better speech in both content and style, whereas Obama's is of the sterile style so beloved of the zombie automatons of modern pop music. I mean seriously, this:

So let us reach for the world that ought to be - that spark of the divine that still stirs within each of our souls. Somewhere today, in the here and now, a soldier sees he's outgunned but stands firm to keep the peace. Somewhere today, in this world, a young protestor awaits the brutality of her government, but has the courage to march on. Somewhere today, a mother facing punishing poverty still takes the time to teach her child, who believes that a cruel world still has a place for his dreams.
Is fucking sloppy speechwriting. The images are cliched, the form has been done to death by, among other things, said pop music, and it's just a blatant and crude attempt to arouse emotion.


First, in dealing with those nations that break rules and laws, I believe that we must develop alternatives to violence that are tough enough to change behavior - for if we want a lasting peace, then the words of the international community must mean something. Those regimes that break the rules must be held accountable. Sanctions must exact a real price. Intransigence must be met with increased pressure - and such pressure exists only when the world stands together as one.It is worth noting that going by international law, Iran has a right to the use of nuclear power, and hence the enrichment of uranium. But Obama knows that, of course.

rednordman
12th December 2009, 15:34
The taliban are not very nice, but they are not fascistic either. I guess they are exactly what the media labels them as, and that is fundamentalist extremists. I guess the media has to get it correct sometimes.

The thing that baffles me is why the west feels the need to invade their country and scoff at the charge of imperialism. What gives them the idea that Afganistan is going to work well as a liberal capitalist democracy anyway? If they are doing out of the goodness of their hearts, are they right to tell them what to do? or should they leave it too the afgani people to decide, and give them their self determination? What I have seen since the invasion, suggests nothing but the west enforcing its values on a country that is not really interested in adhearing to them. Thats not to say that in afganistan they love the taliban, just it is now, more and more obvious that this approach (the war on terror in afganistan) isnt working.

In many ways I can slightly see a few parrallels with the west and the soviet union, comparing both the wars and how the loosers got defeated. Why o why does Obama believe that its a good idea to send even more troops to afganistan? It could well backfire. This would finish him imo. Then we will have to tolerate a real arsehole in 3-4 years time.

RadioRaheem84
12th December 2009, 16:58
What I have seen since the invasion, suggests nothing but the west enforcing its values on a country that is not really interested in adhearing to them. Thats not to say that in afganistan they love the taliban, just it is now, more and more obvious that this approach (the war on terror in afganistan) isnt working.It is imperialism, plain and simple. There is no way around it. Their own plans admit to it. Even if you were to eliminate the oil factor, the planners of the Iraq and the Afghan war admitted that the US has a right and mandate to secure the world for liberal democracy, i.e. take down any government that is undemocratic, occupy it and turn it into a flourishing free market paradise. They mask it as revolutionary but its no different than British Colonialism when they set out to civilize the world. How do American not see this? How do "pro-war" leftists like Christopher Hitchens not see this?

It is no different than applauding the British empire for 'civilizing' India. One would first have to agree that free markets and liberal democracy are good therefore eliminating one's leftist credentials (as Hitchens did by admitting that he believes global capitalism is more revolutionary than socialism). Instead the liberal hawks see in the same light when the US liberated the Japanese from fascism. :rolleyes:


The taliban are not very nice, but they are not fascistic either. I guess they are exactly what the media labels them as, and that is fundamentalist extremists. I guess the media has to get it correct sometimes.Why are they not fascistic?


The Sharia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia) does not allow politics or political parties. That is why we give no salaries to officials or soldiers, just food, clothes, shoes and weapons. We want to live a life like the Prophet lived 1400 years ago and jihad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad) is our right. We want to recreate the time of the Prophet and we are only carrying out what the Afghan people have wanted for the past 14 years.- Mullah Wakil, aid to Mullah Omar

Not very nice?:blink: They want a cheap imitation of a long dead religious caliph.

Pogue
12th December 2009, 17:08
Well a US pullout if by choice or by force would be a victory for anti-imperialism, however if it was forced out it'd be a good message for imperialists across the world, but then there'd be a whole new struggle in the vacuum left, similar to whats going on now but without the US military I suppose.

khad
12th December 2009, 17:10
Not very nice?:blink: They want a cheap imitation of a long dead religious caliph.
Then your target should be Saudi Arabia, since they started the whole wahhbism thing. And they are the ones funding missionary work around the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

Given Saudi Arabia's status as a US client, it is not apparent to me how imperialism will be incompatible with reactionary religious ideology.

rednordman
12th December 2009, 19:19
Then your target should be Saudi Arabia, since they started the whole wahhbism thing. And they are the ones funding missionary work around the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

Given Saudi Arabia's status as a US client, it is not apparent to me how imperialism will be incompatible with reactionary religious ideology.Thats actually a really good point. What makes Afganistan anyworse than places such as Saudi Arabia? Just because SAr is wealthy and willing to do buisness with the USA does not take away from the fact that the religious ideologies are not so much different. If people think oppression of the taliban is bad in afganistan, then what about the oppression in SAr? Why do they get away with it?

khad
12th December 2009, 22:00
Thats actually a really good point. What makes Afganistan anyworse than places such as Saudi Arabia? Just because SAr is wealthy and willing to do buisness with the USA does not take away from the fact that the religious ideologies are not so much different. If people think oppression of the taliban is bad in afganistan, then what about the oppression in SAr? Why do they get away with it?
And functionally they have the financial resources to set up their Wahhabi schools internationally, including inside the USA. They are the ones who are at the forefront of proselytizing Wahhabism.

In addition, since Saudi Arabia is a capitalist hellhole, there is an underclass of workers who are treated as more or less slaves.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/feb2006/sril-f22.shtml


Sri Lankan housemaid tells of systematic abuse in Saudi Arabia
By Kalpa Fernando
22 February 2006

Tens of thousands of Sri Lankans are driven by financial need and poverty to become contract workers in the Middle East. Their conditions are appalling. Many are treated as slave labour and abused, mentally and physically. A number have died in unexplained circumstances. The Sri Lankan government, concerned above all to protect a lucrative source of foreign exchange, has taken no action to defend its citizens.

According to a report by the Information Department in Colombo, 64.5 percent of the 1.5 million Sri Lankans employed abroad are women. In 1986 the proportion was only about a half of it, at 33 percent. Most are employed as housemaids or are involved in other menial forms of work. The World Socialist Web Site recently interviewed one housemaid who described at length the exploitative conditions she was forced to endure.

Padma, 39, went to Saudi Arabia in May 2003 hoping to be able to help her son and daughter financially. She had previously worked in a factory but left the job after marrying. She decided to look for work in the Middle East where pay is substantially higher than in Sri Lanka. She returned after a harrowing experience that is typical for many contract workers.

Padma explained: “To get the job I had to pay 7,000 rupees [$US70] to the Faiz Travel Agent, a local employment agency that arranged my job. To find that amount and to buy essential things for travelling, I sold the furniture and electrical goods from my house. I thought after earning money in Middle East I would be able to replace them. But now I am struggling as I came back more or less empty handed.

“Agency promised me monthly pay of 450 Riyal [$US120]. I registered as a foreign housemaid at the government-run Sri Lankan Bureau of Foreign Employment before departure.” $US120 or 12,000 rupees is about double the average wage of a factory worker. The private agency was to collect a further sum of money through Padma’s employer in Saudi Arabia.

Padma was one of a group of 123 housemaids who landed in the Saudi capital of Riyadh. The Faiz Travel agent in Riyadh took them all to the agency house where they were treated roughly. If anyone fell asleep due to tiredness, the agency’s officers would kick them to wake them up. Everyone had to stay awake until they were assigned to their workplace. Sometimes women stayed there for three or four days sitting in a chair.

From the outset, Padma was shifted from one place to another. “My first place was the house of an army officer in Riyadh. In Saudi Arabia, women are discriminated against. Even a housewife can speak directly only to her husband and the son. I did not understand the language so a Sri Lankan driver translated for me. He passed on the orders of the master from behind the wall of a room.”

The officer complained that he had wanted a young person, not a middle-aged woman like her. The driver warned her not to say she was Buddhist as the employer was hostile to Buddhists. It made no difference, however.

After four days, Padma was suddenly asked to pack her bag without explanation. She was put in a vehicle and dropped back at the agency house. She had no freedom. All contract workers have to surrender their passport to their employer when they get a job. It is only returned when the contract is completed.

Padma said: “After I was returned to the agency, they asked repeatedly about my age. The Sri Lankan agent had lied about my age. I was quite disturbed and started crying.” The agency owner took Padma to his house. She was there and at the agency house for 16 days without work. She had no chance even to post a letter to her husband and children in Sri Lanka.

“One day when I was at the agency an Indonesian girl returned there because she had trouble at the house where she worked. She was in her 20s. In front of me, the agency owner hit the girl with his hands and legs. I was so shocked. We could not speak to each other because of the language difference. But she understood that I had no money and gave me 10 Riyals to send a letter to Sri Lanka,” Padma explained.

Finally, the agency arranged another house. “My new mistress was a doctor. In that place, I did not get enough to eat. After four days, at my request, the doctor dropped me back at the agency house,” Padma said. She was sent to another employer where she worked for five months without being paid her monthly wage.

“In that house there were 28 people, including 16 children. I worked from early morning—5 a.m. to 11 p.m. First I had to do all heavy housework alone. A few days later another Sri Lankan girl joined me. Some days both of us would wash 30 heavy items. We had to clean the house, wash the carpets and toilets and also help with the kitchen work. I worked without any pay and could do nothing about it.”

Without her knowledge, Padma was sold to another job firm, the National Recruiting Office, just like a slave. The new agency sent her to another place in Gaseem, 300 km away from Riyadh. Because she only had a visa for Riyadh, she could not go outside.

“The Gaseem house was good compared to the others,” Padma said. Her new employers were teachers. She worked there for nearly one and half years and was paid her promised monthly salary. But the house owners’ mother pushed her into making a loan of $US1,200 or equivalent to 10 months salary, which was never returned.

Padma went back to the agency because her visa was due to expire in May 2005. She was hoping to return to Sri Lanka but, without informing her, the agency had renewed her visa for six months. For another four months, she worked at the house of a relative of the agency owner.

The agency owner then took Padma to his own house before passing her on to another agency, Samirah Mohamed, four days later. The previous owner had kept her bag during her stay and when she opened it she found two gold rings and a chain were missing. She reported the theft to new agency, but nothing happened.

Padma received no help from the Sri Lanka Embassy in Riyadh. When she telephoned, the official told her to come to the embassy. “I told them if I left the house, the mistress could complain to the police saying that I stole money and I would be arrested. I insisted they visit my place and investigate my circumstances,” she said. The official refused.

Padma was very angry about the failure of the government to protect its citizens even when their lives are in danger. “It is not only our government. There are women workers from India, Indonesia, the Philippines, Bangladesh, and Pakistan who have been neglected by their governments. We all face the same problems. Governments are not taking any responsibility to stop abuse. Employers beat housemaids and sometime they burn them. In many places, workers are not paid and not even given food. There are cases of housemaids being murdered. But nothing is done.”

Padma finally returned to Sri Lanka. On her way home, she met two Indian women at Riyadh airport. Both were in a similar position to her. They had worked in Saudi Arabia for eight months but had not been paid, given enough food to eat or clothes to wear.

When she reached Sri Lanka, Padma was in distress. She is still fighting to get her unpaid wages and has received little assistance from the Sri Lankan Bureau of Foreign Employment and other government officials. Her experience highlights the failure of successive governments to in any way alleviate the plight of thousands of Sri Lankan contract workers.

Speaking about the conditions of migrant workers, labour relations minister Athauda Seneviratne recently told the media: “I am telling everyone—let us do our best to prevent these abuses, as this is a grave human issue. We are not exporting goods, we are dealing with humans.” He made no concrete proposals, however.

The government is far more interested in boosting this modern day slave trade, which netted $US1.6 billion in remittances for Sri Lanka in 2004, than in insisting that employers in the Middle East and elsewhere provide proper conditions and pay for their cheap contract labour.This is why I really don't care about the Taliban, even as I don't like their religious ideology. Because there are far worse abuses being committed by reactionary imperialist capitalists while the Taliban has actually given landless peasants weapons to smash their landlords and corrupt cops.

Furthermore, some of you imperialist lackeys really want to support "Afghans" against the Taliban? The same Afghans who tried to pass a law legalizing rape and the same Afghans who gave the Taliban shit because the Taliban violated tribal tradition by trying to legalize the right for women to inherit property?

Clueless liberals need to shut up about things they know nothing about. It might blow some minds, but the Taliban are by far not the most reactionary group in the region.

This is all because Western imperialists destroyed the only real government the people of Afghanistan ever had and threw them to the feudalists and warlords. You guys really think this time is going to be different?

Revy
12th December 2009, 23:24
My first thought, as has been said above, about the Taliban is that they are feudalist. Anyway, it was the CIA that contributed to their rise to power. Saudi Arabia was one of the few nations that recognized the Taliban government - it also did a lot to help bring it to power.

And as khad said...the warlords that the US supports are the same kind of theocrats.

RadioRaheem84
13th December 2009, 05:46
Then your target should be Saudi Arabia, since they started the whole wahhbism thing. And they are the ones funding missionary work around the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism)

Given Saudi Arabia's status as a US client, it is not apparent to me how imperialism will be incompatible with reactionary religious ideology.

My target is fascism in general. But you will get no argument from me when it comes to Saudi Arabia. The US is immensely hypocritical as far as this goes.



Furthermore, some of you imperialist lackeys really want to support "Afghans" against the Taliban? The same Afghans who tried to pass a law legalizing rape and the same Afghans who gave the Taliban shit because the Taliban violated tribal tradition by trying to legalize the right for women to inherit property?

Does not make Taliban more progressive just less reactionary. The situation is not so black and white.


Clueless liberals need to shut up about things they know nothing about. It might blow some minds, but the Taliban are by far not the most reactionary group in the region.


But they are reactionary.


This is all because Western imperialists destroyed the only real government the people of Afghanistan ever had and threw them to the feudalists and warlords. You guys really think this time is going to be different?

No. And no one is defending the continued operation in Afghanistan or the current Afghan government. Chill out.

RadioRaheem84
13th December 2009, 05:54
the warlords that the US supports are the same kind of theocrats.

Yup. Only they're willing to lax Sharia because they're dealing opium.

How the hell does the US get itself caught up in such obvious dirty dealings? I don't get it? I don't buy this Kissinger Realpolitik shit excuse they always use as a cover and I don't get how anyone else does. Are the planners that naive, stupid or corrupt? All three, maybe? Do they think that they can just create a shit government in short span of time, spray some PR on it and then sell it to us as a success? Do they think we're that dumb?

Robocommie
13th December 2009, 06:38
Yup. Only they're willing to lax Sharia because they're dealing opium.

How the hell does the US get itself caught up in such obvious dirty dealings? I don't get it? I don't buy this Kissinger Realpolitik shit excuse they always use as a cover and I don't get how anyone else does. Are the planners that naive, stupid or corrupt? All three, maybe? Do they think that they can just create a shit government in short span of time, spray some PR on it and then sell it to us as a success? Do they think we're that dumb?

Lots of reasons. Realpolitik is a real thing, for one. You back the guy who has what you want right now, even though they're only going to you because you have what they want right now.

But also, wishful thinking, the feeling that a little dirt done today can pay off in the long run. Kill one man, save a thousand, that kind of thing. Also, bad intelligence, biased reports from the field, bureaucratic and inter-departmental struggles.

As far as Afghanistan goes... well, I caught a news story the other night which reported that Taliban agents have actually set up a shadow government in Afghanistan in many provinces, who are issuing decrees and dictates even as the official government in Kabul rules openly. In a way, the Taliban already controls large parts of Afghanistan, so the US presence is not necessarily doing anything about this.

Secondly, I do not feel that the kind of social evolutions that Afghanistan needs is going to be brought about by an external force, especially one with an obvious agenda. If change is to come to Afghanistan it must come at Afghan hands, and if people don't like the way that a lot of Pashtun tribes would like to run things, I have to say, well, fine. But those things are going to have to change organically. Afghanistan has seen nothing but war for decades. How can society evolve and develop civil rights in such a climate? It can't.

GPDP
13th December 2009, 07:00
Keeping to the topic here:

I have to say, not only is that a dull and cliched speech, but to cite an also-cliched statement, Orwell would be proud.

Obama's speech in a nutshell: war is peace. Oh, and we're also awesome. Oh, and... HOPE!

rednordman
13th December 2009, 16:25
Does anyone here believe that there will ever be a day when the crimes of the Saudi Arabian regime are properly exposed? Because I bet there is alot of stuff that goes on their that we do not know about, and the west is quite happy to tolerate and keep to secracy. I think the word hypercrytes could easially be labelled at countries such as USA and Britain.

RadioRaheem84
13th December 2009, 17:46
I think the word hypercrytes could easially be labelled at countries such as USA and Britain.

The politics of oil is a shady, shady thing. Chavez, then is being hypocritical by extending his arm out to the Iranians. Although I hear that Iran is far more progressive than Saudi Arabia that still doesn't make Iran anymore democratic.

A natural resource is financing several theocratic regimes.

RadioRaheem84
13th December 2009, 17:48
Obama's speech in a nutshell: war is peace. Oh, and we're also awesome. Oh, and... HOPE!

Obama's speech is Bush-lite. Amazingly we could've spared ourselves the extra four years of Bush and all voted for Kerry in '04 to get the same policies. The Democrats were simply smarter this time around to run a "progressive" to stand out over the GOP candidate.

rednordman
13th December 2009, 19:03
The politics of oil is a shady, shady thing. Chavez, then is being hypocritical by extending his arm out to the Iranians. Although I hear that Iran is far more progressive than Saudi Arabia that still doesn't make Iran anymore democratic.

A natural resource is financing several theocratic regimes.True points there, but at the sametime, all my life, I have had it rubbed in my face at how the USA and UK are so morally superior than any other country within the world. Isnt this what the right believe religiously also.

If they are so much better than everyone else, than is it not a much larger deal that they are being hypercrytes, if they are supposed to be the guiding light and example in the world?(and we are all supposed to agree with that too).

Looking at how the USA rather randomly picked Iraq and Afganistan to launch hellfire on due to september 11th events, obviously they believe that the whole world should do as they say, or else be a pariah.

RadioRaheem84
13th December 2009, 20:58
If they are so much better than everyone else, than is it not a much larger deal that they are being hypercrytes, if they are supposed to be the guiding light and example in the world?(and we are all supposed to agree with that too).

The moral example is actually the democratic example it's own citizens fought to gain against the capitalist class. The public wouldn't allow for what the US does abroad to happen at home. I mean of course the capitalist class is using the power of the state to try to undue all the gains but the point is that in relative perspective the US is 'free' but that has nothing to do with capitalism.


Looking at how the USA rather randomly picked Iraq and Afganistan to launch hellfire on due to september 11th events, obviously they believe that the whole world should do as they say, or else be a pariah. As Chomsky said, US intimidation is usually never due to some war against communism or war against terrorism in favor of democracy and liberalism, it has everything to do with eliminating political and economic threats to US national interests. If it were really fighting a war against terrorism and for democracy it would've targeted Saudi Arabia as the largest financier of terrorism and a bastion of theocratic fascism. If they use the excuse that they couldn't attack them because they're the largest oil supplier, then what is the difference invading the second largest oil producer; Iraq or wanting to invade another supplier; Iran.
The UK is equally hypocritical for throwing a lot of its backing to places like Dubai. The capitalist class are the most hypocritical for openly endorsing Dubai as a triumph of the market when in reality it was a moderately theocratic capitalist hellhole for the working class and a PR bullshit fest to keep speculation in the city thriving. The state is equally culpable because it supports these capitalists and their endeavors.

The whole essence of the modern state is to apologize, support and defend the capitalist class. When it does this, it ends up running counter to the people's belief of what a democratic state is supposed to do.

ZeroNowhere
15th December 2009, 12:52
Incidentally, Chris Floyd wrote an article (http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/1886-miraculous-organ-blair-obama-and-the-narcissists-defense.html) about it.